![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
12/15/04: More details on criticism needed to convey any sense of neutrality. Peta's strange behavior should be discussed. Protesting and vandalism of medical research should be looked at from a moral standpoint.
Are you sure ? Animals eat animals, so what's their explanation of calling it 'animal right' ? - Taw
The right to life is maybe more precise. Anyway, the point is, at least among some animal rights defenders, 1. that human beings don't need meat to survive and 2. that human beings have, at least in some phenomenological sense, free will, which most non-human being seems to lack. This gives us moral responsibilities that other animals lack. There are also different kinds of rights; those that are claimed, and those that are given, so to speak. Infants, for instance, don't claim a right to live, but we nevertheless grant it to dem. - LarsErikKolden
I would be surprised to hear that any animals had any explanations whatsoever! (hee hee) Perhaps your question might be better cast as, "Animals eat animals, so why do animal activists claim a right for them not to be eaten?"
The question suggests/implies that human murderers (to draw an analogy) are hypocritical to demand for themselves a right not to be executed. Perhaps the right not to be eaten should extend only to herbivores? -- Cayzle
Seems as if some "animal rights" advocates are non-vegans, participate in the food chain but dislike cruelty to animals above and beyond the minimal necessary to the food process (ie Veal). There should be some distinction or explanation of the range of opinions. Changed this to "considered by some". -- justfred
"alleged rights" is confusing. What does that mean? Does "alleged rights" mean anything other than "rights thought by some"?
Is the point that animals can't talk, and thus can't assert rights for themselves?
--TheCunctator
Is anyone else confused by it? Or can we convey the thought less confusingly? "Alleged rights" is similar to "alleged victories" or "alleged crimes." Some people allege that the things in question exist, or if there's no question of their existence that they are properly described by the epithets--and some people deny that. So: some people say that there are animal rights; others deny this. We should not simply, in the first sentence, say that "animal rights are such-and-such," when many people deny that there are any such things at all. For those who happen to deny that animals have rights, that would be not unlike writing, "Anna Karenina was a Russian born in 18XX" and failing to mention in the sentence that she's fictional.
Of course, to say the above is not to affirm or deny that animals have any particular rights or none at all. :-) -- LMS
"Animal rights are rights?, or alleged rights, thought by some..." I think this is just redundant - either alleged rights or rights thought by some. -- Justfred
I was going to say that even human rights can be said to be alleged, and wanted to check what was said in that article, and then it shows up it doesn't exist(!). He. -- LarsErikKolden
We could probably mention specific animal rights groups, like People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and some criticisms of such groups. For example, I think that some animal rights groups have argued against hunting predators like wolves or sharks, even when such predators are posing a clear danger to human lives. There's also the whole laboratory research issue, whether it's right to experiment on animals to produce more treatments and cures for humans. And the (fringe?) animal rights activists that have used violence to destroy such labs, and otherwise have literally fought for animal rights.
I personally find it interesting that this topic is already being discussed in far greater detail than Human rights, at least at the moment. But I won't complain, since I don't really want to go add stuff to Human rights either. Time is short. -- Wesley
(Anecdote:) A friend of mine related this story from Washington DC: during the (Clinton) presidential inaguration, and PETA was staging major protests - throwing blood on furs, "I'd rather wear nothing than fur" (in DC in Winter?!?!), etc. So as some elegant woman was leaving one of the inagural balls in a full-length mink, an activist assaulted her: "Do you know how many animals they had to kill to make that coat?" Her response: "Do you know how many animals I had to f--- to get this coat?"
I was surprised that this page claims a clear distinction between those who support animal rights and those who are concerned about animal welfare. I know few people, many of whom are probably the type hard-core animal rights advocates would dismiss as merely concerned with animal welfare, who recognize such a distinction, even as they send of the annual check. Did anyone else fine this attempt to draw a line unusual?
FYI - over the last few years I've seen several style books decided to use the term "animal welfare" except when discussing a specific group, such as PETA, but it's not clear if this is copy editors and managing editors trying to lead a trend, or a way of acknowledging that many, many people feel our species has a responsibility to be merciful to other living things while very few people think that somehow wild rabbits should be protected from wild coyotes.
Removed the following block. While interesting, I don't see what it has to do with animal rights. Rossami 20:25, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)
[it is correct that] mere "attenuation of the shadow will not change the substance", but it can create the basis for undermining the substance. It goes back to the Brazilian rural worker's image [of] expanding the floor of the cage. Eventually you want to dismantle the cage, but expanding the floor of the cage is a step towards that.
Changed "that sentient animals, because they are capable of valuing their own life" to "that animals, accepting they are sentient and capable of valuing their own life".
Reworded the opening paragraph to eliminate POV. The sentience of animals is itself controversial. Animal rights activists probably say animals are self-aware and even fully sentient, but their opponents might not agree, so the paragraph should not imply that sentience is a fact when it is an axiom from which the activists develop their policies. Vincent 06:51, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I think the following needs to be changed to make it more neutral "All above-ground animal rights groups, as well as the Animal Liberation Front, denounce the use of violence against people. However this is not the case in U.K. where radical animal right activitsts still actively engage in harassement of family homes of individual workers of reserach facility, related business and individual shareholders."
I don't think harassment can be equated with use of violence as it is in the quote above, the point could still be made that some UK activists believe that harassment of people involved in animal industries is a valid tactic, but this does not necessarily equate to violence.
I have put in a mention for Roger Scruton's book, not because I agree with it, but because I find it interesting, and an encyclopedia entry would be incomplete without mention of counter-arguments. I think Animal Rights and Wrongs is one of two books on animal rights by Scruton, the other of which is adressed more to philosophers than to general readers.
Whilst browsing the web, I have come across 'the moral agent-moral patient identity thesis', which states that to be a moral patient one has to be a moral agent. Adherents to this thesis must think that animal rightists have got it all wrong. I have not however come across an argument for this thesis yet - merely a statement of it. Anyone know more about this?
It is kind of paradoxical that animal rights activists seem to be more militant than the animal welfare people, to the point that some of them issue death threats. Believers in rights cannot use utilitarian-style 'ends justify the means' arguments to support the use of such tactics. I guess that such people are really rather confused fanatics. I also suspect that the animal rights vs. animal welfare distinction means one thing in the context of philosophical discussion, and another thing in the context of popular campaigning.
I'm not entirely sure that splitting animal rights and animal welfare across two pages is the right approach, as it is difficult to talk about one without talking about the other, and we now have a lot of duplication. I think separate headings on a single page would be better.
-- Publunch 16:59, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm new here - hopefully my revisions are acceptable. Didn't know about the "Edit Summary" feature. I added some stuff to the Animal Rights in Practice section to make it more reflective of what animal rights supporters actually think about specific issues, like vegetarianism and fur. Does anyone know if we could change the order at all? It seems very strange to have the "Animals and the Law" section near the beginning, since it's mosty unconnected to the rest of the article, and isn't very important.
Anyway, in response to the above, the distinction between animal rights and animal welfare in practice is this: animal welfare people are opposed to "unnecessary" animal suffering, where "unnecessary" means basically that no human desire or want is abridged by ending the suffering. Animal rights people actually think that some benefits to humanity (gustatory pleasure, vanity, etc.) are not sufficient to outweigh some harms to animals (like pain, slaughter, and confinement). The difference is not in philosophic constructs, but rather in the resolution of conflicts of human and animal interests.
Philosophy is much less central to the movement than most people seem to think, probably because reporters and writers outside the movement have had a much easier time reading published philosophy books than finding and talking to grassroots animal rights activists.
I think the two deserve separate articles - the reason they feel like they belong together is that the current article focuses more on how animal rights is different from animal welfare than on what it actually is. When more content is added, the two will have a lot of non-overlap. The history of the two movements, especially, is very different, although I'm not really qualified to write much about it.
-- -SpaceMoose 09:25, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
A section of this archive has been blanked as a courtesy. |
I don't think this picture is a very accurate representation of animal rights. Did the German soldiers care about horses' "rights," or did they just not want their horses to die, just as they wouldn't want their trucks to break nowadays? Thoughts?- LtNOWIS 02:34, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Who put up the "disputed" warning, and why? If the idea is that PETA's "strange behavior" and the activities of anti-vivisection activists should be condemned ("looked at from a moral standpoint"), this is precisely what an encyclopedia article ought NOT to do. The intent of this article is to explain what the concept of "animal rights" means. That involves saying what animal-rights advocates believe. Doing so does not mean either advocating or condemning animal rights. Unless the disputer can explain clearly what the alleged problem with the article is, he/she should take down the warning sign. A case could be made for adding a bit more under "Criticism of animal rights", and I would be willing to do. Some critics (e.g., Jan Narveson, R.G. Frey) are hostile to the notion of animal liberation, but some critics (e.g., ecofeminist Carol Adams) are advocates of animal liberation but believe the focus on moral rights is seriously inadequate.
This seems a bit POV to me. Anyone know of a better way to put this?
What is the alleged POV problem here? There's a difference between describing the point of view of those one is writing about -- something that is necessary in this case -- and imposing one's own point of view on the material. Thus, "it makes no sense to ascribe rights to them" accurately describes the view of those whose position is being explained. "Do these humans have no moral rights?" refers to a major issue in the debate over animal liberation, namely the so-called "argument from marginal cases": i.e., those who deny full moral standing to animals must deal with the problem posed for them by the overlap in mental capacities between (some) humans and (some) animals. Carl Cohen recognizes this problem and tries to deal with it by basing his argument for moral standing on "kinds" of beings rather than the capacities of particular individuals, as pointed out in the passage. His solution does indeed have the implication mentioned. (Whether it is a good idea to include severely mentally handicapped humans in the moral community while excluding clever chimpanzees, is for the reader to judge.) The contractarian position, however, which is referred to next (see main text) avoids this implication of Cohen's position. I am going to alter the text slightly to mention the argument from marginal cases. (Thanks for spurring me to do this; I think the result makes things a bit clearer for readers.)
Re. the "Criticisms of Animal Rights" section: Who exactly is it that criticizes animal rights from a "Marxian or historicist perspective", and which animal-rights supporters "often" take this as a might-makes-right argument? As far as I know, such a perspective has not been articulated to any significant extent in the debate over the moral status of animals, and therefore should probably not be included in this article. The fact that someone could make such an argument is irrelevant, it seems to me. Scales 08:45, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ted Benton (Natural Relations: Ecology, Animal Rights, and Social Justice) and David Nibert (Animal Rights/Human Rights: Entanglements of Oppression and Liberation) have addressed the topic from a Marxist perspective, but both support animal liberation. Benton does not reject the notion of animal rights, though he finds it inadequate and prefers to talk in terms of human duties to animals. The current entry should be changed to make it clear that a Marxist perspective is not necessarily hostile to animal liberation in general or animal rights in particular. Scales
Isn't this whole animal-rights argument is a bit futile? Is there a way, after all, to show that one claim about animal rights is more "true" than other? I don't really seem to understand all those animal rights defenders, there are no truth with which they can try to convience people to defend animals. This all sounds senseless to me.
Scales, thanks for your e-mail. I'll talk to you about this later on Thursday on this page, if that's okay with you. Best, SlimVirgin (talk) 07:43, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
I'm pasting the alternative introductions onto this page so we can take a look at them. Yours is:
Animal rights is the viewpoint that (non-human) animals have moral rights that prohibit humans from violating their basic interests, and that they ought to have legal rights to protect those interests.
The term "animal rights" is commonly used as a synonym for " animal liberation". However, not all those who favour liberating animals from human domination (e.g. some utilitarians and feminists) believe that the concept of moral rights is the best ethical approach to take.
Mine is:
The philosophy of animal rights refers to the view that non-human animals ought to have certain basic rights enshrined in law to ensure the protection of their most important interests.
Switzerland passed legislation in 1992 recognizing animals as beings, not things, and in 2002, rights for non-human animals were enshrined in the German constitution when its upper house of parliament voted to add the words "and animals" to the clause in the constitution obliging the state to respect and protect the dignity of human beings. [1] The Seattle-based Great Ape Project, founded by Australian philosopher Peter Singer, is campaigning for a United Nations Declaration on the Rights of the Great Ape. [2]
Some animal-rights theorists argue that animals, like humans, have moral rights, while others take a utilitarian approach. The term "animal rights" is therefore more commonly taken to refer to animal liberation, and need not imply that its supporters advocate a rights-based moral philosophy.
Most, if not all, animal-rights theorists agree that to regard non-human animals as different in kind from humans, and undeserving of legal rights for that reason, is to be guilty of speciesism, a form of prejudice that, they argue, has no philosophical or biological justification. [3] SlimVirgin (talk) 16:22, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
(Copied with permission from Scales' e-mail to SlimVirgin):
I respectfully take issue with your emphasis on legal rights when you say: "The philosophy of animal rights refers to the view that non-human animals ought to have certain basis [sic] rights enshrined in law to ensure the protection of their most important interests." The PHILOSOPHY of animal rights is essentially just that: philosophy, and in particular, a branch of MORAL philosophy: hence, it is primarily about MORAL, not legal, rights -- or, in the broader sense of animal liberation, about the equal consideration of interests. It is perfectly okay to refer to the struggle for legal rights for animals in the article, but that should not be the way the article begins. The movement to give animals legal rights grows out of the philosophy of animal liberation, including the important branch of it that ascribes moral rights to animals. First comes moral philosophy, then law. (Actually, first comes compassion, then moral philosophy, then law.)
You say: "Some animal-rights theorists argue that animals, like humans, have moral rights, while others take a utilitarian approach. The term "animal rights" is therefore more commonly taken to refer to animal liberation, and need not imply that its supporters advocate a rights-based moral philosophy." I find this way of putting things confusing. In terms of moral philosophy, NO animal-rights theorists take a utilitarian approach. Some animal-liberation theorists take a utilitarian approach; others take a rights approach; others take a feminist approach; etc. I also find it vague or confusing to say that "'animal rights' is...taken to refer to animal liberation"; rather, the term "animal rights" is commonly confused with the broader notion of "animal liberation". Scales
About legal rights: as you know, legal rights are assigned to corporations, and my understanding is that they could be assigned in principle to anything society might decide it useful to give them to: old-growth forests, old-master paintings, ticket stubs from Celine Dion concerts, etc. Animal liberation/animal rights is about more than legal standing for animals; it's about our moral obligations to animals as sentient individuals who have experiences and lives that matter to them -- something that is not true in the case of ticket stubs or old-growth forests or corporations per se. So it seems to me that the heart of animal liberation/animal rights is morality, not legality. As I suggested in my e-mail, the push for laws protecting animals (which, I agree, is very important) grows out of the moral stance (the claim that animals should be included in the moral community). Scales
I'm not sure if this is an appropriate section to pose this, but its the closest in the talk page. While both Animal rights and Animal welfare mention briefly the distinction I'm surprised that neither pages present the other's criticisms of their ideas. I find that this is lacking in both articles, but I'm afraid I lack really the education in the topics to write a paragraph on them (I actually came here looking for more on this). I was wondering if anybody would be willing to start some paragraph or something about the difference in arguing for good treatment of animals from the standpoint of human moral obligation than from defense of animals as moral agents. I really feel that the criticisms of animal rights from the arguments from sympathy and humane treatment need to be included. Kablamo2007 6 July 2005 03:55 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, you say "The philosophy of animal rights refers to the view that non-human animals ought to have certain basic rights enshrined in law to ensure the protection of their most important interests." If by "rights" is meant legal rights, then adding "enshrined in law" is redundant. On the other hand, if the idea here is that animals have moral rights that ought to be enshrined in law, the sentence needs to be rephrased, doesn't it? And doesn't the first sentence in Version 1, above, cover the bases in this regard?
You're quite right that the distinction between "animal liberation" and "animal rights" is more an academic than an everyday one. That's what the second sentence in Version 1, above, is meant to point out. Isn't a Wikipedia article just the place to point out this distinction to readers? Given that so many leading writers in the debate, including many on the pro-animal side (notably Peter Singer and some feminists) reject, or at least shy away from, ascribing moral rights to animals, "animal liberation" is a more exact term for the whole movement than is "animal rights". Still, we have to recognize that most people will look up the subject under "Animal Rights".
What if we said something like this: Animal rights (or animal liberation) is the movement to protect (non-human) animals from being exploited by humans. It is a radical movement, insofar as it aims not merely to attain more humane treatment for animals, but to include many animals within the moral community — that is, all those whose basic interests (for example, in not being made to suffer unnecessarily) ought to be given the same consideration as our own similar interests. The claim, in other words, is that these animals must no longer be regarded legally or morally as property, or treated merely as resources for human purposes. To this end the movement advocates that many animals be given legal rights to protect their basic interests.
The above paragraph is a slightly modified version of the first paragraph in the "Animal Liberation" entry. If the essence of the second paragraph from that entry (outlining the disinction between "animal rights" and "animal liberation") were added to the "Animal Rights" entry, we could then delete the "Animal Liberation" entry and simply have a link from "Animal Liberation" to "Animal Rights". What do you think? Scales
I'm glad we're in basic agreement. I don't think the sentence you refer to is tautologous. The words "all those whose basic interests...ought to be given the same consideration as our own similar interests" is a definition of the moral community. The sentence simply says that many animals ought to have their basic interests given the same consideration as our similar interests. There may be other, slightly different, ways of defining the moral community. However, I don't know of any writer or activist who claims that all animals ought to be admitted to the moral community (i.e., "liberated" or given legal rights). Insects? Amoebas? Singer proposes one criterion (sentience) for who gets in; Regan proposes a slightly different one (being the "subject-of-a-life"). It's questionable whether insects or amoebas have any interests, in the sense in which interests require having desires or subjective preferences. At one point Singer suggested drawing the line for who gets in "somewhere between a shrimp and an oyster". The issue is partly an empirical one, dependent on what science tells us about the inner lives of different creatures.
This brings up the issue of personhood. One way of defining personhood could be in terms of anyone who qualifies for inclusion in the moral community (i.e., anyone who meets the criterion we select: sentience, or subject-of-a-life, or whatever). However, personhood can also be reserved for, say, those who are rational or who have a sense of self. This would mean that some who are legitimately members of the moral community, like very young children or sparrows, might not qualify as persons. Scales 23:02, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Weeks ago I suggested that the paragraph in the "Criticism of Animal Rights" section about "one marxian or historicist perspective" was not representative of any substantial, actually-existing Marxist facet of the animal-rights debate, but was essentially someone's idea of "here's how someone might critique animal rights"; also, the paragraph gave the misleading impression that most of those currently writing on the subject from a Marxist perspective are opposed to animal rights/liberation, when in fact the opposite is the case. Since there has been no response from whoever posted the paragraph, since the Animal Rights article is now at or beyond its Wikipedia-recommended limit, and since the sensible part of the paragraph in question is mentioned earlier in the section on "Criticism of Animal Rights" ("Unless one is a moral agent, the argument goes, one cannot claim rights for oneself or be held accountable for respecting the rights of others"), I have deleted the paragraph. Scales 02:21, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I might be wrong, but it seems like this page should be called Animal liberation, because that's the more general of the two terms (AR and AL), since some animal liberationists don't believe in animal rights. (And hence it is technically out of place for them to be on a page with the current title.)
If the page was called "Animal liberation", it could talk about animal lib generally for most of the article, and then have a section on how some (most?) animal liberationists think animals should have specific rights analogous to human rights. It probably wouldn't involve much editing of the content itself, just moving a few things around. Then Animal rights could be a redirect to Animal liberation.
I hope I'm not rehashing something you all talked about above; I skimmed the previous talk but I didn't see anything about the idea of moving the page. Zach (t) 22:23, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the following quote attributed to Leonardo da Vinci:
"I have from an early age abjured the use of meat, and the time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men"
Da Vinci, never said this. This is, instead, from an early 20th century novel about the great artist and inventor's life, Romance of Leonardo da Vinci. This particular fake quote was the result of an accidental transposition of two quotes in Jon Wynne-Tyson's book The Extended Circle: A Commonplace Book of Animal Rights.
The following page seems credible on the subject of Einstein and vegetarianism: http://www.ivu.org/history/northam20a/einstein.html . It indicates that he not only approved of vegetarianism, but adopted a vegetarian diet near the end of his life, citing a letter dated March 30, 1954. It also gives a possible source for another oft-quoted remark of his. Scales 04:04, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
I can't find a source for that Einstein quote, though it is well known, but Wikiquote [4] gives a citation for this one:
Letter to Vegetarian Watch-Tower (27 December 1930)
--
Dforest 04:56, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Hi Crumb, you put the NPOV tag on a few days ago. For this to be used correctly, you need to make actionable suggestions for improvement, and these have to be consistent with our policies, so please let us know what you'd like to see changed. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 07:18, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for removing the tag, Crumb. I appreciate it. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:12, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
This quote from the article: Cohen’s position implies that while a human being with the mental capacity of a mouse has full moral standing, a mutant chimpanzee with an I.Q. of 150, who regularly contributed articles on philosophy to Wikipedia, would have no rights whatever. seems a little POV for me. While it could be argued that the above is true, I don't think the article should simply state it as fact. It could equally well be argued to be false (eg, a mutant chimpanzee would be a different kind to normal chimpanzees and so could have rights, and a non-mutant chimpanzee would not have the linguistic abilities to contribute to wikipedia or the moral concepts to be a moral being, however intelligent). Perhaps it should say that that is an objection to his view, rather than an actual problem with it. I don't like to edit articles myself, I am an anonymous newbie. 212.9.22.222 14:27, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
I was curious as to why the link as the main website ( http://anesthesiaswonderland.bravehost.com/index.html ) is a Animal Rights resource and the online community ( http://p2.forumforfree.com/anesthesiaswond.html) is also related to animal rights. may I ask exactly what is the problem with the website?
well i've been visiting Anesthesia's Wonderland for about a month now and the community and the site itself that sprung up is pro-animal rights just like its forums, but allows for both sides to express its views. KerryJones
A section of this archive has been blanked as a courtesy. |
This article is not neutral.
Idea that animals have rights does not imply that they should not be used humanely, or must be "liberated" from "human domination". Radical extremiss, like Animal Liberation Front are not typical for animal rights.
Article does not properly distinguish different animal welfare concepts. Eg. most people agree that animals raised for food should be killed humanely, but far fewer agree that animals cannot be rased for food.
Indeed, this article plays to propaganda that acknowledging some animal rights (which most people do) is equal to agreeing to "animal liberation" whatever it means (few people agree) or accepting animal rights-motivated violence towards humans (even fewer people agree).
Artifically lumping these topics is damaging to opinion of less extreme animal right groups.
It is also very unlikely that animals feel or can understand being "dominated" by human e.g. farmer on a farm (it requires far greater mental skills than suffering from eg. cramped conditions or feeling pain). It is also likely that "freeing" animals can result in their extinction (How many pigs live in countries where people don't eat pork?). Unsigned by User:141.14.19.45
Few organisations wish to be put in line with "animal-terrorists", particulary after recent grave-digging excesses of ALF. And hardly any supporter of animal rights, at least outside UK, would support ALF. And please, introduce clear note that animal rights are not welfare (it is on animal welfare page, but not at animal rights) and are not liberation. Unsigned by User:141.14.19.45
With your speedy responses, please put information that "animal welfare" is different from "animal rights" for clear information for wiki users. Please also expand "criticism" section. Current article is not neutral but heavily tends towards propaganda. Wikipedia is meant to provide neutral info, not advocate goals, even worthy ones. Common sense says that any organisation, especially ones which hope for public support, are damaged by lumping with law-breaking and violent extremist branch. It is true even if I am not aware that any particular organisation specificaly protested against it. plumber
Idleguy, I don't regard you as editing in good faith here. While legitimate, well-sourced criticism of the concept of animal rights is welcome, personal essays are not. You can't suddenly stick into the middle of an article on AR that there are people in Africa starving. This was what my mother used to say to get me to eat, ironically given the context, meat. It's a silly argument: just because there are human-rights abuses doesn't mean there aren't other kinds of injustices in the world. But regardless, arguments need to be relevant and referenced, otherwise they're original research. See Wikipedia:No original research. And for the record, I'm noting here that you've nominated several animal-rights related images for deletion even though they were correctly tagged and sourced. Your lack of good faith is sadly apparent. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:52, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
The Hawking quote is perfectly fair and I'd actually suggest leaving in the first comment on medical research--he's outspoken on this subject generally (stem cell debate, for instance, as I recall). Regarding Africa, specific issues could be noted. Bushmeat, for example--bad idea but people eat what's available. There's also Shooting, shoveling, and shutting up to illustrate the feeling amongst rural folk that animal rights laws are out of touch with their reality. I actually think the criticism section could say more with less space and should be gone over. Marskell 16:50, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I have re-added the para claiming donations go mainly to professional organizers, etc, as a direct quote from the source Idleguy provided.
As of now, only the following points from eis original paragraphs are not present: critics say that basic human rights and human welfare are more important than animal rights and are being ignored by animal rights activists, such critics use Africa as an example of an area lacking these basic rights and welfare, such critics ask animal rights activist to improve all human conditions to the level of animal conditions before trying to improve animal conditions.
While Idleguy may consider these points obvious, it is a basic tenent of Wikipedia that any fact can be questioned and a source required. IMO, the final goal for Wikipedia is to have each and every claim made in the 'pedia have multiple reliable sources. Also, these seem like claims for which sources should be available; if critics have said this, we ought to be able to quote them directly. Thanks again to everyone for working to improve the 'pedia! JesseW, the juggling janitor 21:32, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
It seems a bit odd that the intro contains two large paragraphs about animal rights followed by one small paragraph on animal welfare, followed by a paragraph of animal rights criticism of animal welfare. I see two large "animal rights" paragraph and one small "animal welfare" paragraph to already be skewed in the favor of animal rights, and tacking on the "animal rights" criticism of "animal welfare" seems to be over the top favoritism. I think it is already clear that animal rights advocates think that anything less than animal rights is morally unacceptable, and I don't see a reason to include it as a pot-shot against animal welfare. The PETA quote of "something is better than nothing" seems grasping. Animal rights say they are against cruelty and exploitation. The animal welfare POV says their POV is not exploitive or cruel. That should be the end of it. FuelWagon 16:19, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the National Beef association as a source and replaced it with the Foundation for Animal Use Education as a source. Their website has a lot more information, links, and quotes. FuelWagon 23:41, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
SlimVirgin: you did a blind revert of quite a bit of work I had done. Your edit summary said it was "minor", and you made no mention of why you did the revert on the talk page. I find it interesting since you were the one who was complaining about the National Cattleman quotation as being "inappropriate", so I went and found a more "appropriate" source. I replaced the criticism paragraph quoting the Cattlemen organization with sourced quotes from notable experts and a URL to back up each and every one of them. Yet you reverted it, completely, wholly, and without a single word of explanation, marking your revert as "minor". Given the emphasis by wikipedia on the importance of source quotes from notable experts with URL's to back them up, perhaps you could give some sort of a legitimate explanation for your massive revert of all these sourced quotes from notable experts with URL's to back them up. Without any such explanation, I'm left to assume this was simply the product of POV pushing on your part. FuelWagon 15:09, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
re: this complete deletion: the introduction must at least mention the other major points of view around the topic or it fails NPOV. there is a major POV that opposes "animal rights" and it goes by the name "animal welfare". First SlimVirgin deleted the paragraph I added because she said it was "too long". Then she deleted it saying "don't just list quotes". So I did a complete rewrite, and now you delete it because it is "redundant"? Nice. The intro contains a short sample of the animal welfare POV. It is not redundant with the main text because the main text contains the full background of that POV. Quotes are given more context, etc. Any major point made in the intro should be covered again in the body of the article, or it wasn't worth introducing. It isn't "redundant", it's good editing: introduce the topic in the intro, then go into full detail in the body of the article. FuelWagon 16:45, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Since SlimVirgin is claiming I don't understand NPOV policy, I thought I'd review the introduction that she is claiming to be "neutral" and break it down word-by-word, phrase-by-phrase. Here are a few intersting little tidbits I found in the current introduction that someone who has more "understanding" of NPOV than I, can perhaps explain to me: ( FuelWagon 04:50, 26 November 2005 (UTC))
Main Entry: 2ex·ploit Pronunciation: ik-'sploit, 'ek-" Function: transitive verb 1 : to make productive use of : UTILIZE <exploiting your talents> <exploit your opponent's weakness> 2 : to make use of meanly or unjustly for one's own advantage <exploiting migrant farm workers>
FuelWagon (
talk •
contribs) Wrote:I've tried to summarize what I see as biased, disputed, and emotionally loaded language in the introduction
There followed a lengthy discussion that (in large) addressed issues other than article content. The full text of this can now be found at:
Talk:Animal rights/Article RfC.
brenneman
(t)
(c) 00:02, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Here from RfC..I find the 1st graf hard to read; ideally, it should present the bare bones definition of the subject in question in a concise manner. I have no comment at this time re POV, but I would suggest that a graf later on in the article under "overview" would be a much better choice as the opening graf. "Animal rights is the concept that all or some animals are entitled to possess their own lives; that animals are deserving of, or already possess, certain moral rights; and that some basic rights for animals ought to be enshrined in law. The animal-rights view rejects the concept that animals are merely capital goods or property intended for the benefit of humans. The concept is often confused with animal welfare, which is the philosophy that takes cruelty towards animals and animal suffering into account, but that does not necessarily assign specific moral rights to them." I think that defines the subject pretty well, especially putting the confusion with animal welfare up front, as it is an easy distinction to elide.
IronDuke 19:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I have simply taken the intro as stands, and fixed what I regard as excessively POV language, such as "non-human animals" or "non-human great apes" -- these are not standard English usage, and if used should be placed in quotes, indicating that they belong to a special vocabulary preferred by animal rights activists. The same goes for "moral community," which I left in, but in quotes with qualifying language. I believe it is also possible for animal rights protection to be added to the German constitution without being "enshrined" in it. The one other change that I made was the elimination of a redundancy in the first paragraph, where there are two sentences that say basically the same thing, that animals shall not be regarded as property. I combined them into one sentence at the beginning. -- HK 00:58, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Animal rights, or animal liberation, is the movement to assert and establish a status for animals, such that they may no longer be regarded legally or morally as property, or treated merely as resources for human purposes, but should instead be regarded as persons. It is a radical movement, insofar as it aims not merely to attain more humane treatment for animals, but to include many animals within what animal rights activists call the "moral community" — that is, all those whose basic interests (for example, in not being made to suffer unnecessarily) ought to be given the same consideration as our own similar interests. To this end the movement advocates that many animals be given legal rights to protect their basic interests.
Some countries have taken the first step toward awarding personhood to animals. Switzerland passed legislation in 1992 recognizing animals as beings, not things, and in 2002, the protection of animals was added to in the German constitution. The Seattle-based Great Ape Project, founded by Australian philosopher Peter Singer, is campaigning for the United Nations to adopt its Declaration on Great Apes, which would see gorillas, orang-utans, and both species of chimpanzee included in a "community of equals" with human beings, and which would extend to the apes the protection of three basic interests: the right to life, the protection of individual liberty, and the prohibition of torture. [7] For information about individual activists and groups, as well as their aims and methodologies, see Animal liberation movement.
Critics, such as the Foundation for Animal Use Education, state that animal rights leaders show a "fundamentally anti-human perspective". [8] Critics generally support animal welfare instead. The American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) has defined animal welfare as "a human responsibility that encompasses all aspects of animal well-being, including proper housing, management, nutrition, disease prevention and treatment, responsible care, human handling, and, when necessary, humane euthanasia." [9]
I don't know much about it, but these sounds like the types of distinctions that a good encyclopedia article should make. We don't want Wikipedia to say that one side or another's point of view is RIGHT - rather we want to describe what each side SAYS about animal rights. Uncle Ed 02:40, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
The sentence "Some countries have taken the first step toward awarding personhood to non-human animals" is logically unsound. Persons are by definition human. Perhaps a better term could be found. The whole sentence, incidentally, is gazing in a crystal globe. Who says there will be "person"hood for animals, and who says this was the aim of the legislation discussed? JFW | T@lk 01:52, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
There must be a better word. The present version suggests there is no form between inanimate things and persons. JFW | T@lk 02:50, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
This talk page is really long. Any objections to me summarising it a bit? - brenneman (t) (c) 03:34, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
If we are to have one or two criticism paragraphs (perhaps instead of the current second one to reduce length), here's a suggestion below. Or we could have the current second para, and the first one below as a third. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:00, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Critics of the concept of animal rights argue that, because animals do not have the capacity to make moral choices, cannot respect the rights of others, and do not even understand the idea of rights, they cannot be regarded as possessors of moral rights. The philosopher Roger Scruton argues that only human beings have duties and that "[t]he corollary is inescapable: we alone have rights." [10] Critics holding this position argue that there is therefore nothing inherently wrong with using animals for food, as entertainment, and in research, though human beings may nevertheless have an obligation to ensure they do not suffer unnecessarily (Frey 1980 and Scruton 1997). This position is generally called the animal-welfare position, and it is held by some of the oldest of the animal-protection agencies: for example, by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals in the UK.
Other philosophers, like Peter Singer, argue for equal moral consideration for animals without adopting a rights-based position. Singer argues that a capacity to suffer is a necessary and sufficient condition for ascribing interests to an individual (at the very least, an interest in not suffering); and where it can be established that an individual has interests, there can be no justification for allowing that individual to be treated in a way that ignores those interests, unless we can show that some of the interests are inferior in morally significant ways (Singer 1975). The implication of what Scruton has called this "vacuous utilitarianism," [11] which counts the pain and pleasure of all living beings as equally significant and removes any special moral status from humans, is that we may be forced not only to recognize that the interests of animals are equal to our own, but also that, in some circumstances, they may outweigh those of a human being. It could be argued, for example, that the interests of a fully-grown chimpanzee outweigh those of a human being in a persistent vegetative state. Many critics of animal rights or animal liberation find this conclusion morally repugnant.
I second Babajobu's comments. SlimVirgin, you've done an excellent job. Scales 18:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I am certainly not saying that I disagree with what everyone else has agreed to -- it is by no means clear to me, who has agreed to what. You simply proclaimed that the dispute was over, and as I was responding a few hours later, your POV ally Jayig was unprotecting the page. Then, shortly after you reverted my edits, Jayig reprotected. With this many editors at work on the article, it may take more than two hours to establish whether we really have a consensus.
I made my objections to the POV language in the intro clear. You responded by suggesting that the term "non-human apes" was more or less equivalent to "non-human-primates," which is not the case. You have made no argument to support a contention that "non-human animals" and "non-human apes" are standard usage, and therefore should be included in the intro without quotation marks, or attribution to the pro-animal rights POV. Similarly, the term "moral community" should be in quotes, because the idea of "including animals within the moral community" is way out of the philosophical "mainstream," and saying the the protection of animals was "enshrined" in the German constitution is unnecessary and a bit ridiculous. On the whole, SlimVirgin, this article is an advocacy piece, down to the parody of the Sistine chapel that is "enshrined" in the "great apes" image. Nonetheless, with the minor corrections that I made, and you reverted, I think the intro will do. You should elucidate the grounds for your objections to these minor corrections. -- HK 16:30, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
visitor from rfc: the introduction reads like a (slightly polished) manifesto, not an encyclopedia article. it is too long, takes many assumptions for granted, & uses language like "first step" implying positive progress, to give one small example. Appleby 01:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Good points, IronDuke, thank you. About the animal rights/liberation distinction, we have another suggested paragraph for the intro (see the three above, and then this would be the fourth). See below. It goes into liberation/rights, but other editors said they'd prefer to see it in the criticism section. It would be hard to say anything of note about the various movements in the intro without it getting very long, but maybe I'll try to think of something. Regarding animal welfare and who is/is not: I think everyone who isn't animal rights would say they're animal welfare, because the only other alternative is to say we owe animals no duty of care whatsoever and may cause as much suffering as we want, a position no one will admit to holding, as a rule anyway. So in that sense, Scruton counts as animal welfare, but in reality, his main thing is just to argue against animal rights. Finally, the cites in brackets are called Harvard referencing and it's one of the citation styles allowed by WP:CITE. Thanks for these comments. They're very helpful. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Other philosophers, like Peter Singer, argue for equal moral consideration for animals without adopting a rights-based position. Singer argues that a capacity to suffer is a necessary and sufficient condition for ascribing interests to an individual (at the very least, an interest in not suffering); and where it can be established that an individual has interests, there can be no justification for allowing that individual to be treated in a way that ignores those interests, unless we can show that some of the interests are inferior in morally significant ways (Singer 1975). The implication of what Scruton has called this "vacuous utilitarianism," [14] which counts the pain and pleasure of all living beings as equally significant and removes any special moral status from humans, is that we may be forced not only to recognize that the interests of animals are equal to our own, but also that, in some circumstances, they may outweigh those of a human being. It could be argued, for example, that the interests of a fully-grown chimpanzee outweigh those of a human being in a persistent vegetative state. Many critics of animal rights or animal liberation find this conclusion morally repugnant.
We seem to have a lot of 'em. On another page (like Loudspeaker) I'd just clean up and get permission later. However, I'll go gently here. Any reason we need this many? Refering of course to Wikipedia:External links. - brenneman (t) (c) 00:34, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I was editing and someone was reverting my changes so I'll post them here in case my addition to the intro gets reverted. Here is what I want to add:
"The animal rights movement mostly consists of morally bankrupt violent extremists intent on spreading propaganda throughout the liberal media, while those opposed to their views are generally nihilist sociopaths, more generally, evangelical Christians waiting for the apocalypse."
Judging from the tone of the article, this seems to be correct. What do you guys think: put it in or leave it out? -- Ben 00:47, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
What happened to the Animal Rights and the Media secion that spoke about the Animal Voices radio show? I was going to add links to other AR radio shows.....
Do you think if it is appropriate if I list it (and the other animal rights radio shows) under "resources"? I think it is important to note that there are radio programs as well as magazines, newspapers, etc., that are dedicated specifically to exploring these issues.. The one radio show in particular has online archieves with all the interviews they have every done... all the authors mentioned on this page are there. What do you think? Jan 11, 06
That "detailed" bothers me some, since the chunky two paragraph quote it produces as evidence has little detail to offer against the very specific charge concerning NAZI anti-vivisection legislation. The legislation was enacted almost ten years before the Holocaust really got underway. Critics do not make the comparison Francione avers. Instead, in my understanding, they are pointing out that in order to promote animals in status, it is necessary to demote humans from the existing, pre-eminent status we have afforded ourselves in our laws. That is, one must have a conception of humans which verges on losing the capacity to differentiate between humans and beasts. The bestial treatment of humans that ensued in the NAZI case adds oomf to the argument, but is not its fundament. The NAZI anti-vivisection philosophy is taken to be an early-warning sign of a general philosophical readiness to demote human beings. I just don't see how the Francione bluster here amounts to a riposte, let alone a detailed one. Adhib 23:53, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
I removed the part about how critics say that animals "do not have the capacity to enter into a social contract." First of all, I am not certain that it is true. Pets or domesticated animals that are not confined might be said to be willing participants in some sort of arrangement. More importantly, the concept of a social contract comes from John Locke, whose conception of human relations ought generally to be considered bestial. And finally, no source was offered for the inclusion of that item under "critics say," so I removed it until someone wants to document it. -- HK 16:05, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Arthur Schopenhauer's critique of Kant's exclusion of animals from his moral system is based on Kant's Groundwork of the Metaphysic of Morals, where he argues that "humans have an inherent dignity that makes them ends in themselves, whereas animals are mere means to our ends." He argues that we do have a responsibility towards animals, but an indirect one. I looked on all relevant articles on wikipedia, and none of them explains this aspect of Kant's philosophy. Maybe it will be appropriate to explain it here since it is directly related to the animal rights debate. Also, ever since Darwin published The Origin of Species, this "inherent dignity" theory is widely debated, in our times for example, by Peter Singer. This is a good reference worth a read. deeptrivia ( talk) 02:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Typically, a discussion on animal rights also includes Descartes' automata theory ("animals are automata that act as if they are conscious"), Aquinas ("since animals cannot direct their actions, they are merely instruments that exist for the sake of humans"), and Carruthers who extends Rawls' concept of Justice as Fairness to argue against animal rights. Right now I pulled these out of my head, but can find out references. I think these inclusions will make the discussion more complete. deeptrivia ( talk) 04:16, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Ultimately, Dr. Peter Singer has the correct, utilitarian point of view. Words and phrases such as "exploitation" or "rights" are useful to a degree, but what matters is ultimately 1) the good outweighing the bad (utilitarianism) 2) the good outweighing the bad for those who deserve it (justice), i.e. to those who do not initiate force.
It is mathematically certain that utilitarianism and justice will be in conflict in any dispute over any moral or political issue.
Game theorists have formalized these concepts, making the drivel of armchair critics is worthless and obsolete, with notable exceptions of those who take groundbreaking, original ponits-of-view, such as Dr. Peter Singer.
So, all these debates about what some animal rights soldiers or organizations have said are trivial and irrelevant. What matters is what they do, the sacrifices they have made against insurmountable odds, and the suffering they have vastly reduced.
Fighting for animal rights should be viewed absolutely no differently than a judge or police officer fighting a burglarly, or soldiers fighting Nazis in World War II. Compromises will always need to be made, but that is always the fault of the non-animal rights side. Many take the view that war for animal rights is justified, and that those who oppose this war to outlaw factory farming and breeding animals for food in an age of technology where we can get our protein from non-animal sources are unpatriotic cowards.
This was removed:
1) It is too long for the quotes section, where we normally go for bite-sized, and this article's quotes section is long to begin with. It also doesn't make a point about animal rights; its point is that the end of vivisection will bring glory to the New Germany. We are not concerned about the glory of the New Germany here. The quote would make more sense on a page about the Nazi party.
2) It is POV pushing. Discussing comparisons of the animal rights movement with Nazism is completely appropriate in the article body, where these comparisons can be faithfully considered. But the quotes section should contain quotes that directly address the issue of whether animal rights are a good or a bad idea. The quote itself doesn't make a succinct or poetic point about animal rights--it is the fact that it is obvious Nazi propaganda that makes a point. That context means that the quote cannot be taken seriously. It is POV pushing via a kind of straw man argument. If you disagree, please see (1) and please do not revert before you reply here. -- The Famous Movie Director 08:16, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
-Ayn Rand.
I think this quote and perhaps an economists view on animal rights would be a much better idea than the 'nazi' argument. After all arn't the majority of industries affected by Animal Rights Terrorism capatalist industries: drug industry, animal products, cosmetic industrys? I mean SHAC think they are waging a guerilla war within the stock market. Most animals are considered capital arn't they? The majority of animals I come into contact with are packaged, apart from when I see cows in the field... thats not NPV tho.. heres another quote to go with it..
"a tiny group of activists (SHAC) succeeding where Karl Marx, the Baader-Meinhof gang and the Red Brigades failed" -The Financial Times.
I just think the whole nazi discussion is just plain BAD TASTE from either side! Xanax 10:35, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
This quote doesn't seem to have anything to do with animal rights (in that it makes no argument that, because animals "do not survive by rational thought," they should have no rights), so I'm thinking of removing it. Any objections? SlimVirgin (talk) 06:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
1.) do you present "both sides" of racism? Is there a section on "critics of, eg, black equality?" Should there be? If no, why do the same here?
2.) Delete the passage on Nazis. Anything we can agree is good was used by someone we can agree was horrible. Remember, Mussolini made the trains run on time. Should all trains be late because a bad person made them on time?
3.) The final criticism from Stephen Hawking should be deleted, unless he has the ultimate authority to define what a "more worthwhile cause" is. If person A believes that stopping ending a form of oppression is worthy enough to persue, who is person B to say that his favorite cause is more worthwhile?
4.) The original criticisms list could use some improvement, since it's left off in the middle, as it seems. It ends with "since non-human animals aren't capable of moral decision making." You should add the following points: (1) Yes, some apes are capable of some form of morality. (2) Moral judgement doesn't lead to rights. Brain-damaged humans (and babies) are entitled to rights, despite this lack of moral thought. The claim that the moral judgement "test" should not be administered by the individual is mentioned, but glazed over. It seems strange that your rights should depend on a test given to me. Furthermore, if mentally disabled humans don't take the test, but are included because others have passed, why not non-human animals with similar mental status? If they aren't included, why? "They're not human" is morally meaningless. (3) The article states that non-humans kill each other without thinking that it is wrong. This justifies letting humans do it? The argument seems to say: "Non-human animals are incapable of moral thought. Because of this, they act immorally towards each other. Therefore, we should be able to act immorally to them." It seems strange to say someone is immoral, and then look to them for moral inspiration.
5.) The "criticism" that non-human animal rights can be anti-human never criticizes the concept. It only attacks several of the concept's promoters. Whether Chris DeRose thinks it's justified to experiment on one rat to save an incurable disease (a purely hypothetical and impossible situation nonetheless) is irrelevent to whether non-humans should be entitled to legal rights. It certainly wouldn't make humans second-class citizens to do so; when everyone is equal, there are no second-class citizens.
6.) The section on animal welfare needs to be redone. "Animal Welfare" asks that we must provide for non-human animals "all aspects of animal well-being, including proper housing, management, nutrition, disease prevention and treatment, responsible care, human handling, and, when necessary, humane euthanasia." Some terms are vague, such as "proper" housing and "responsible" care, but the position can be classified in two general ways.
I can do most of the writing, but these problems must be addressed.
HK, Yes, I understand how you need to be neutral. However, many people, even today, are of the belief that some humans, whether they be black, Jewish, low-caste, or in some way different, are inferior. If you look at the wider world, it is highly controversial to suggest that all humans are entitled to equal rights and considerations. Look at fundamentalist terrorists who hate Jews; at many Americans (I'm looking solely at my own country here) who hate blacks; at the Christians (and, perhaps members of other religions) who think people who don't practice their beliefs are inferior; and at the vast majority of Americans who believe homosexuals are not entitled to equal rights. Perhaps you should include criticisms of the idea that all humans are entitled to equal treatment in the human rights article? Why do the two receive unequal treatment? Either include "criticisms of human rights" or include refutations of criticisms of nonhuman rights. Oh, and I never asked you to delete them; just to add the responses to them.
As for analogies to the Nazis, there are none that can be honestly made. Nazis did not come up with the idea of partial liberation of nonhumans "by chance," no, and yes, it did result from "blurring the distinctions between human and beast," assuming "beast" means any nonhuman. This does not mean that there is any honest analogy to the idea of full nonhuman liberation; you're comparing apples and rotten apples, in a sense. Nazis take a position against equality— they start with the idea that "not everyone is entitled to equal rights." Who gets made "superior" and who "inferior" is somewhat arbitrary. If it's a valid criticism of rights for nonhumans, it's also a criticism of rights for white, blue-eyed, and blond-haired humans. Today's nonhuman equality stems from the idea that everyone IS equal, and should be treated as such. Saying that Nazis' granting of rights to nonhumans is an argument against such rights means that you're looking to the Nazis for moral inspiration.
There is another passage, though, which must be deleted.
"Some critics, such as Alan Herscovici, of the Fur Council of Canada, claim that 'Virtually none of the money they collect is used to fund humane shelters, develop better animal husbandry methods, or find cures for diseases. Instead, donations pay the salaries of professional organizers, subsidize more fund-raising, and fuel sensationalist campaigns against animal-use industries.'"
What is Mr. Herscovici advising nonhuman rights organizations to do with their money?
1. Fund humane shelters 2. Develop better animal husbandry methods 3. Find cures for diseases.
Well, let's see.
1. Fund humane shelters.
This is a worthy cause, but not the cause they persue. These organizations are about liberation, i.e., banning slavery, torture, etc. Humane shelters are to care for dogs and cats who rely on caring humans. It's a worthy cause, but not the same one. To use an analogy, an abolitionist in pre-Civil War South wants to end slavery. He may focus on providing support and health care for free blacks, and will almost certainly agree that this is a worthy cause. However, HIS cause is to abolish slavery. Both are important causes, but one shouldn't expect an organization devoted to one to persue the other.
2. Develop better animal husbandry methods.
OK, where to start here? Perhaps disbelief. Is he really stating that organizations opposed to slavery of nonhumans should be spending their money developing better ways to exploit slaves? The organizations OPPOSE the use of non-human animals! It would be a criticism of them if they DID try and develop better ways to use them! Nonhuman rights organizations hope to STOP the murder of chickens for their flesh; how would their money be better spent developing "better" ways to raise chickens to be murdered?
3. Find cures for diseases.
This is unrelated. Finding cures for diseases is a worthy cause, but a different one. These organizations work for nonhuman equality, not cures for disease. Even cures for nonhuman diseases are a different cause; they're worthwhile, but have nothing to do with liberation.
What is it that non-human rights organizations do, then? He lists three things, which he is opposed to.
1. Pay the salaries of professional organizers 2. Subsidize more fund-raising 3. Fuel "sensationalist" campaigns against animal-use industries.
Well, what about this?
1. Pay the salaries of professional organizers.
This is a standard cost. Organizations have staff. Employees are necessary. Employees have to be paid. This can't be avoided.
2. Subsidize more fund-raising.
Since the organizations rely on fundraising, a percentage of their funds must be alloted to bringing in more. Spend $2, and bring in $25, for example. It's a necessary and unavoidable cost.
3. Fuel "sensationalist" campaigns against animal-use industries.
Organizations working for non-human rights oppose those who vioate non-human rights. Animal-use industries violate non-human rights. Therefore, organizations working for non-human rights oppose these industries.
In short, Mr. Herscovici says that non-human rights organizations should:
1. Start funding two causes irrelevant to their own
2. Start funding one cause that contradicts their own
3. Stop funding their own cause
4. Stop paying basic operating expenses
Mr. Herscovici does NOT give any criticism of nonhuman equality. He only presents a jumbled and incoherent notion of what organizations working for nonhuman equality "should" or "should not" do. Therefore, even if a "criticisms" section is needed to provide balance, this passage has no relevance in it.
eregweeet
HK, Yes, I see the part about the rebuttal of the Nazi comments. I must have missed it before. The thing is, is it really POV to eliminate jumbled and meaningless criticisms? Leaving Mr. Herscovici's remarks in place clouds the article with misinformation. Unless the reader thinks it over carefully, it seems to imply that non-human rights organizations spend all of their money on irrelevant or meaningless matters and are essentially hypocrites. Does Wikipedia check deeper and evaluate what people say, or merely aim for balanced "he said, she said" without carefully examining information to check for coherence, validity, or (depending on the issue and statement) factual truth? Most of the media in this country adopts a tepid NPOV in which two opposing sides are presented equally, with each side's argument presented verbatim, with no or little subsequent fact-checking, but this is far from ideal.
The anti-human section needs the Gary Francione position as the utalitarian positions is not genrally used by ARA. Also Fruitarian belifs are not an adoption of parody AR groups, but have exsted seperatly for some time before the other Xanax 01:19, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
these are two distinctly diffrent philosphies and movements and I believe that this article could be broken down to these diffrent topics and more information added. Xanax 00:35, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I am at some point soon going to attempt to write a little history on AL/AR for this page, any suggestions for inclusions or snippets can be posted as drafts here Xanax 00:44, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I wonder, there is no mention of United Animal Nations, and no Wikipedia article, yet they were coming into New Orleans when all others were evacuating. Does anyone have more information? Chris 20:47, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
This part is completely ridiculous. There's no need for it whatsoever. Just because the Nazis did something, and animal rights activists do it to, it doesn't make animal rights activists Nazis or make their actions in the least bit similar. This is a clear and obvious logical fallacy.
Are we to add to the page of vegetarianism that Hitler was a vegetarian as a 'criticism'? Are we to add to the page on dogs that because Hitler had one that's a valid criticism of them as a species?
An utterly idiotic and specious paragraph. Remove it in a week or I'll do it.
If anyone wants to replace the section, they should have a convincing reason to do so. At the moment it stands as a fallacy. Mostlyharmless 06:24, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Argreed. It's guilty-by-association logic, and was far too unfocused. I've never even heard this argued before seriously. -- Joewithajay 23:21, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
(About comment in 'history') Removal of cited material isn't "vandalism" if said material is an obscure theory that doesn't seem to have any fitting in an already long article. I've seen it mentioned several times on this discussion that the section simply is unneeded and, at best, uses weak logic - but it shouldn't be removed because I don't agree with it, it should be removed because this isn't an accurate reflection of the counter-argument on the subject (if anything it seems like it's written so animal-right supporters can almost laugh at the opposition’s case). And it does feel like original research to me - despite a few comments from Gary Francione. -- Joewithajay 18:49, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
My concern boils down to this - there's 4 key criticisms of animal rights in the article, and if we include the Nazi comparisons section, it communicates that this is used as an argument by roughly 25% of opponents (maybe moreso, since the section is so longer than the other arguements). I know that's not how it works in reality, but to include it within arguments which are used much more frequently gives it a false sense of importance. Maybe we could compromise and include it under ‘other arguments’, since, even if it was a topic of discussion, I doubt it’s still one used in modern debate (and if it is, could you cite recent examples?). -- Joewithajay 00:39, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed the Nazi section, but added it to the 'Animal rights can be anti-human' section. The Nazi section was referring to this argument anyway. Right now consensus is against having a whole section on the Nazi argument, so please leave it in its current form until we've discussed it more fully and not let this turn into an endless revert contest. (I see you reverted another removal of the section earlier today, without responding to discussion here) -- Joewithajay 19:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I think this is a great compromise. -- Joewithajay 00:08, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
This user (who has by the way been banned from editting on Larouche articles by way of ArbCom) keeps putting the quote back in. [18]-- Jersey Devil 17:47, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
It's clear to me there's a potentially interesting debate to be had on this issue, but an encyclopaedia article would be the wrong forum for such a debate. I will just note that the remaining trace reference to Nazism should be preserved, so that individuals like me coming to this article aren't tempted to whack in a whole new section. Adhib 23:29, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I just created this page and it needs expansion. See the talk page for suggestions. The Ungovernable Force 08:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I moved Husbandry Institute links to a new catagory -- as it does not promote AR, it does not belong in any of the other catagories. Welfare is different than rights. -- Biophilic 19:31, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
User:SlimVirgin reverted without discussion. Not good WP behaviour. I have reconsidered the edit and edited it accordingly. Pls discuss before reverting.
I have also attempted to copy edit and begin reorganisation in order to bring the word limit towards WP target. Please remember that bulk reverts are not good WP behaviour. In accordance with wikipedia policy I have referenced the points previously at the top and moved detail to the appropriate sections. The reference at the top to Frey and Scrutton was incomplete so I hope anyone who is wedded to it will complete it (note that Frey is in the references). Likewise with the RSPCA ref.
I've created a separate animal welfare quotes article and referenced it (note that not all the quotes were animal rights quotes, so I used the welfare tag - I hope this meets with consensus.
I've copy edited and merged the two criticsm sections (why have two??).
There is much POV on both sides which needs removing. Mccready 14:54, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Cute and happy monkey illustrating animal rights is captive-born baby Francois langur in London Zoo. As animal rights activists condemn zoos, it is ironic and inappropriate to use this photo.
Above reminded me of a need of discussion about distorting facts and fakes in animal rights movement. I fell it needs at least a mention and warning to users, who might take pictures from 1980's of small zoo cages and lab animals as typical to modern treatment of animals.
It is common. And very much common also in animal rights not only animal liberation. Anyway, as written below, I see no point of posting data which will be removed by biased admin. Wikipedia is for sharing facts, not making propaganda posters. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.14.19.45 ( talk • contribs) . i.e. Mccready ( talk · contribs).
This user has bulk reverted - agreed by some in the wikipedia community to amount to vandalism. The reasons given were that consensus had already been found for the lead. Even if this was accurate - there is no need to bulk revert. I have checked the talk page exhausitvely and find NO such consensus. Secondly, User:SlimVirgin's bulk revert deleted sections for which no reason was given. For example, the section on where to draw the line is very relevant to the article. Singer says animal research should stop only in certain cases. Others disagree.
Here are my reasons for undoing the damage caused by User:SlimVirgin
The following are examples of bad English which User:SlimVirgin's edited reinstated after I had worked to improve:
If User:SlimVirgin had bothered to check, he/she would have seen that quotes of the type he/she insists on putting it belong in wikiquotes. It would be a simple matter, as I did, to link out. The article is already too long to be further filled with his/her OR.
As I said, in my original post, the article needs work. It needs to show the different degrees of animal rights. If, for example, the view that it is wrong to protect yourself from animal attack is not a significant minority view, then there is no need to include the criticisms of Bidinotto (which strike me as strawman stuff).
Bulk reverts are not the way forward in this project. I look forward to working cooperatively with editors on this article but if User:SlimVirgin bulk reverts again and fails to address the above points in discussion, I will begin an RfC process against him/her. Mccready 01:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
User:SlimVirginwho is an administrator and should know better has offered inadequate explanation for her reverts. She claims the intro was agreed after discussion but provides no links to this to counter my research of the talk page.
Egregious, though I assume good faith, was her labelling of her bulk revert as minor in the edit summary.
She has a strong interest in the article, stating on her userpage "My main editing interests are the Middle East and animal rights". Given that, I would expect better behaviour than bulk reverts and a failure to discuss adequately. She fails to address most of the specific points I raised above and rather than repeat them here I ask her and others to do so if they wish to revert again.
I have carefully checked her edits and incorporated some of them and am happy to discuss. The following are my reasons for additional edits:
On the quotes issue. I am surprised that an administrator does not follow WP policy on this. By all means link to wikiquotes.
I've placed a link to Model organism. The statement is logical extrapolation needing no source.
I have taken great pains and much time to consider carefully each revert of User:SlimVirgin and expect the same respect from her. If User:SlimVirgin or anyone else bulk reverts for a third time without adequate discussion I will begin an RfC process. Mccready 09:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
My update disappeared suddenly.
I'm afraid user SlimVirgin is making propaganda from information. I see no further point in fighting with admin to put data. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.14.19.45 ( talk • contribs) .
User:SlimVirgin, I will not repeat myself. Please read my extensive points in two recent posts above and reply to them sensibly. You have already been critised on Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents:
The response to your question above is contained in posts I have already made. Have you read them? I agreed with you and took the list away in my very next edit, which you reverted seemingly without reading.
You stated on another page that I had removed criticism from the lead. In the absence your detailed reasoning, I can only hope my latest attempt meets your wishes.
For the fourth time, I have again spent a lot of time on this. Please do me the courtesy of trying to respond properly rather than bulk reverting. Mccready 06:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
per WP:RFPP, I have protected the article until the disputed edits have been hashed out here on the Talk page. Please remember that Wikipedia works by consensus. Tom e r talk 07:48, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Has consensus on the disputed text been reached? Tom e r talk 23:28, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Consensus has not been reached. There is no evidence that anyone has considered my points. I will not repeat what I have said above. The repeated reference to bacteria is becoming tiresome (I repealed it as soon as the error was pointed out) and shows again that my posts have not been read properly. SlimVirgin's version backtracks on earlier undertaking to remove things like "moral community", "enshrined".
I note the following sequence of events:
How Tomer could possibly have reviewed my posts in the time between protection request and decision is beyond me. I am also quite shocked that an admin should alter the talk page to a version which she prefers.
The article and intro as it now stands seems BY animal rights people FOR animal rights people. It seeks the moral high ground and criticises animal welfarists with the phrase "not merely". It is confused and wrong in portraying AR as wanting to reduce suffering while implying only AR wants this. The povish "merely" is repeated again in the last sentence of the lead. The sentence beginning "Some countries have passed legislation awarding recognition to the interests of animals. " is vague. The lead does not need to mention indvidual countries. These can be mentioned, as in my version, in the body. Likewise with the mention of individuals in the lead.
The article is confused about defining AR as a movement or as a concept. A read of this discussion page shows only one organisation wanting "community of equals" if this is the defn of AR. This is a major contribution, not m Mccready 07:27, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Happy to discuss further once you've responded to my earlier points. Discussion on bacteria is pointless. You just don't seem to get it - it was an ERROR. Mccready 08:23, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
For starters this is what's wrong with the article:
18. animal rights seems more common than animal-rights
Mccready 06:59, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
So we agree on
We disagree on
I’m happy to compromise on the rest. Meantime the page should be unprotected while the remainder is sorted out.
AND, you have edited my edit on the talk page. This makes it impossible for a later reader to see who said what. It’s not good behaviour. Mccready 09:39, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
yes I will not revert if you agree to abide by WP policies. The edit of my edit was on this page. Mccready 08:52, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
The policies you weren't abiding by include WP:LEAD, and your insistence on putting bunches of quotes in that belonged in wikiquotes. Your refusal to discuss your bulk reverts properly until after my 4th request and my taking it to another page where another admin criticised your high-handed attitude gives me little confidence in your bevahiour. Will you or will you not promise to abide by WP policies? Mccready 08:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Wow. Despite all the contraversy surrounding this article, I am pleasantly surprised with how it stands now. It is almost completely encyclopedic. I would only make these criticisms: 1) Oswald as a hypocrite: it doesn't matter whether Oswald fought in the revolution 2) the phrase "non-human animals": "animals" will do just fine 3) the quotes about about saving dogs or babies from drowning in the section "animal rights as anti-human" need to have some sort of introductory statement or they need to be moved to "quotes". As it stands now, the article implies, "These statements are examples of being anti-human." Articles shouldn't imply anything. 4) the Nazi thing: While it might be encyclopedic (you are merely stating the opinion of someone), the point of view is extremely radical and a non-sequiter. One would think that the Nazi's supposed compassion toward animals lead to Hitler's dictatorship, the Holocaust, and WWII. Up until this point in the article, you had been quoting credible sources who used the language of philosophy to argue their point. This is just insane. -- Cjackb 19:07, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
"The vast majority of animal-rights advocates adopt vegetarian or vegan diets; they may also avoid clothes made of animal skins, such as leather shoes, and will not use products such as cosmetics, pharmaceutical products, or certain inks or dyes known to contain so-called animal byproducts."
We need to remove the "so-called" since this is a word to be avoided. -- BHC 19:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin made the following comment above for which she should apologise. "Mccready, you're trolling now." This comment was the most offensive in a stream of offence which also included her statement. "I understand how to write intros. You actually don't, although I realize you think you're the expert." The page should not remain protected at the whim of an admin who behaves like this. For the record, I will continue to abide by WP policy. If lifting of page protection does not proceed expeditiously I will seek other forums to have the dispute examined. Mccready 03:54, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I'd be grateful to SV if she would do me the courtesy of reading and commenting substantively my post on this page of 09:39, 10 April 2006 (UTC). She has also changed the header of this section. The header was “SlimVirgin should apologise". I don't agree that this is an attack; indeed the phrase she uses appears to be one of her favorites, little used elsewher. An admin should know the standards of civility on WP. I have yet to receive an apology for this instance or for the accusation earlier when she alleged another editor’s comments were mine. This is not good behaviour for an admin. Mccready 06:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
A reply is not necessarily a substantive reply. Your reply was "Mccready, please stop lecturing me. I haven't edited your talk-page edit, at least not intentionally, and if I did so unintentionally, I apologize. I'll request unprotection if you undertake not to start reverting again. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:30, 10 April 2006 (UTC)" Once again, may I humbly request your subtantive reply?
Mccready 06:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
It is indeed absurd and an example of the dangers of your editing style of interspersing your comments into someone elses. It makes it very hard to follow who said what when. Having checked again, I have no further problems and am happy for unprotection to proceed. Mccready 07:30, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
The Nazi thing was added again, and I've removed it because of the source:
According to a book review, the author Kathleen Marquardt is a "Montana ranch mom," not what we'd call a reliable source. The book itself is a described as a "manifesto," and is out of print. If anyone wants to return this material, please source it to someone reputable, and more than one, because it says according to "critics," not according to "one Montana ranch mom." Also note that the Nazis did not extend rights to animals. They introduced the same vivisection-control legislation that the British had at the time. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:58, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
i just started reading this article and it totally doesn't flow or sound good at all. you can see the different disputes showing in almost every paragraph and i was thinking that maybe a way of solving this was to create two seperate categories: one for animal rights and one for animal liberation. i totally think they are two different concepts that overlap, but are still quite different and have obvious limits within their definitions. for example, while all animal liberation activists can be considered animal rights activists, not all animal rights activists can be considered animal liberation activists.
What about people who don't support the concept of moral rights (either for humans or for non-humans), but struggle to get animals legal rights, which they believe are the only rights one can have? I am thinking of utilitarians, for instance. Are they not part of the animal rights movement? I think they are. They in large part founded it. They support rights in one important sense. The introduction to this article excludes them.
And what about people who believe that animal rights, or liberation, or whatever, go further than just liberating animals from human abuse? What about predation? Even if for obvious reasons human abuse is a priority today, if we give equal consideration to the interests of non-human animals, then the suffering of a mouse counts just as much when it is a cat who is torturing him as when it is a human. I don't think it is fair to exclude these persons from the definition of animal rights.
Furthermore, it is false to say that animal rights wants to regard all animals as persons. Tom Regan, for instance, distinguishes between animals who are "subjects of a life" and those who, though sentient, are not (fish, perhaps, are an example). He wouldn't regard the latter as persons, and doesn't extend rights to them, though he does give weight to their welfare. So the introduction is flawed on this count too.
Tu sum up: the introduction as it is is too limited in scope.
I don't think that there can be any clear-cut definition of animal rights in general that can capture the diversity of the movement. The same can be said for many social movements. It is wrong to try to impose a definition on it. The introduction should try to be simply descriptive of what the movement is.
David Olivier 10:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi SlimVirgin. I'll rephrase the part about the intro excluding utilitarians and others when I get back in a few days. It's true I wasn't very clear.
Concerning predation: it was an ongoing debate ten or twenty years ago inside the movement. The movement has become a lot less philosophical, unfortunately. The debate about predation certainly still exists in the French movement, at least. One well known article advocating a critical stance towards predation is Steve Sapontzis, "Saving the Rabbit from the Fox?", which was an article in the journal Between the Species, and then became a chapter of his book Morals, Reason, and Animals. See here for references of that book. I haven't found the English text of the article on the Web, but the French translation is here.
David Olivier 02:43, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
The version I propose is:
Animal rights, or animal liberation, is a social movement to achieve rights for animals so they are not regarded legally or morally as property, or treated as resources for human purposes. The movement says animals should be regarded as persons and included in the moral community, [1] by giving their basic interests — for example, the interest in avoiding suffering — the same consideration as humans.
My reasons are:
In summary I think my version is more concise, though I would prefer not to use "moral community" because that term is used by its proponents in a normative fashion. At least the reader should be told what is meant by "moral community".
Mccready 02:31, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin reverted by edits without discussion. Please discuss. Mccready 07:48, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The allegation is absurd. The fact that SV edited the page before I did gives her no right to be so high handed, as another admin has pointed out. Please address the substance of my arguments. Mccready 12:36, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Once again you fail to address the substance. Perhaps you should list all the pages you regularly edit and which I don't. Once again, you have no prior rights. You do not own wikipedia. You have no right to behave the way you do and ignore our culture of discussion. Please assume good faith - I am here to improve articles. I have reverted and ask you to address the issues.
In summary I think my version is more concise, though I would prefer not to use "moral community" because that term is used by its proponents in a normative fashion. At least the reader should be told what is meant by "moral community". Mccready 17:39, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
SV. This is untrue. These points were not covered while the page was protected. Pls do me me the courtesy of addressing the six points. Your accusations of trolling do yourself a disservice.
Mccready 18:58, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Having just read some of this article, I have to say I found the intro a little misleading. In particular, the lines
"but also to include species other than human beings within the moral community, [1] by giving their basic interests — for example, the interest in avoiding suffering — the same consideration as our own. The claim is that animals should no longer be regarded legally or morally as property, or treated merely as resources for human purposes, but should instead be regarded as persons."
made me think that the article was saying the Animal Rights movement was advocating equal status between humans and animals (which I know no to be the case). Later on the article clarified my concerns, and re-reading the introduction after reading the rest of the article it makes more sense (apart from the person bit]]. My concern is that if the first thing people see when they read the article is something they believe untrue, it will put them off the whole article.
Given the controversy, and efforts already made to solve it, I don't want to simply edit the intro. May I suggest it be looked at again? I'd be happy to contribute some suggestions as to how it could be re-worded, but not if everyone is too fed up to consider new versions of the intro. Captainj 13:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
12/15/04: More details on criticism needed to convey any sense of neutrality. Peta's strange behavior should be discussed. Protesting and vandalism of medical research should be looked at from a moral standpoint.
Are you sure ? Animals eat animals, so what's their explanation of calling it 'animal right' ? - Taw
The right to life is maybe more precise. Anyway, the point is, at least among some animal rights defenders, 1. that human beings don't need meat to survive and 2. that human beings have, at least in some phenomenological sense, free will, which most non-human being seems to lack. This gives us moral responsibilities that other animals lack. There are also different kinds of rights; those that are claimed, and those that are given, so to speak. Infants, for instance, don't claim a right to live, but we nevertheless grant it to dem. - LarsErikKolden
I would be surprised to hear that any animals had any explanations whatsoever! (hee hee) Perhaps your question might be better cast as, "Animals eat animals, so why do animal activists claim a right for them not to be eaten?"
The question suggests/implies that human murderers (to draw an analogy) are hypocritical to demand for themselves a right not to be executed. Perhaps the right not to be eaten should extend only to herbivores? -- Cayzle
Seems as if some "animal rights" advocates are non-vegans, participate in the food chain but dislike cruelty to animals above and beyond the minimal necessary to the food process (ie Veal). There should be some distinction or explanation of the range of opinions. Changed this to "considered by some". -- justfred
"alleged rights" is confusing. What does that mean? Does "alleged rights" mean anything other than "rights thought by some"?
Is the point that animals can't talk, and thus can't assert rights for themselves?
--TheCunctator
Is anyone else confused by it? Or can we convey the thought less confusingly? "Alleged rights" is similar to "alleged victories" or "alleged crimes." Some people allege that the things in question exist, or if there's no question of their existence that they are properly described by the epithets--and some people deny that. So: some people say that there are animal rights; others deny this. We should not simply, in the first sentence, say that "animal rights are such-and-such," when many people deny that there are any such things at all. For those who happen to deny that animals have rights, that would be not unlike writing, "Anna Karenina was a Russian born in 18XX" and failing to mention in the sentence that she's fictional.
Of course, to say the above is not to affirm or deny that animals have any particular rights or none at all. :-) -- LMS
"Animal rights are rights?, or alleged rights, thought by some..." I think this is just redundant - either alleged rights or rights thought by some. -- Justfred
I was going to say that even human rights can be said to be alleged, and wanted to check what was said in that article, and then it shows up it doesn't exist(!). He. -- LarsErikKolden
We could probably mention specific animal rights groups, like People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and some criticisms of such groups. For example, I think that some animal rights groups have argued against hunting predators like wolves or sharks, even when such predators are posing a clear danger to human lives. There's also the whole laboratory research issue, whether it's right to experiment on animals to produce more treatments and cures for humans. And the (fringe?) animal rights activists that have used violence to destroy such labs, and otherwise have literally fought for animal rights.
I personally find it interesting that this topic is already being discussed in far greater detail than Human rights, at least at the moment. But I won't complain, since I don't really want to go add stuff to Human rights either. Time is short. -- Wesley
(Anecdote:) A friend of mine related this story from Washington DC: during the (Clinton) presidential inaguration, and PETA was staging major protests - throwing blood on furs, "I'd rather wear nothing than fur" (in DC in Winter?!?!), etc. So as some elegant woman was leaving one of the inagural balls in a full-length mink, an activist assaulted her: "Do you know how many animals they had to kill to make that coat?" Her response: "Do you know how many animals I had to f--- to get this coat?"
I was surprised that this page claims a clear distinction between those who support animal rights and those who are concerned about animal welfare. I know few people, many of whom are probably the type hard-core animal rights advocates would dismiss as merely concerned with animal welfare, who recognize such a distinction, even as they send of the annual check. Did anyone else fine this attempt to draw a line unusual?
FYI - over the last few years I've seen several style books decided to use the term "animal welfare" except when discussing a specific group, such as PETA, but it's not clear if this is copy editors and managing editors trying to lead a trend, or a way of acknowledging that many, many people feel our species has a responsibility to be merciful to other living things while very few people think that somehow wild rabbits should be protected from wild coyotes.
Removed the following block. While interesting, I don't see what it has to do with animal rights. Rossami 20:25, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)
[it is correct that] mere "attenuation of the shadow will not change the substance", but it can create the basis for undermining the substance. It goes back to the Brazilian rural worker's image [of] expanding the floor of the cage. Eventually you want to dismantle the cage, but expanding the floor of the cage is a step towards that.
Changed "that sentient animals, because they are capable of valuing their own life" to "that animals, accepting they are sentient and capable of valuing their own life".
Reworded the opening paragraph to eliminate POV. The sentience of animals is itself controversial. Animal rights activists probably say animals are self-aware and even fully sentient, but their opponents might not agree, so the paragraph should not imply that sentience is a fact when it is an axiom from which the activists develop their policies. Vincent 06:51, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I think the following needs to be changed to make it more neutral "All above-ground animal rights groups, as well as the Animal Liberation Front, denounce the use of violence against people. However this is not the case in U.K. where radical animal right activitsts still actively engage in harassement of family homes of individual workers of reserach facility, related business and individual shareholders."
I don't think harassment can be equated with use of violence as it is in the quote above, the point could still be made that some UK activists believe that harassment of people involved in animal industries is a valid tactic, but this does not necessarily equate to violence.
I have put in a mention for Roger Scruton's book, not because I agree with it, but because I find it interesting, and an encyclopedia entry would be incomplete without mention of counter-arguments. I think Animal Rights and Wrongs is one of two books on animal rights by Scruton, the other of which is adressed more to philosophers than to general readers.
Whilst browsing the web, I have come across 'the moral agent-moral patient identity thesis', which states that to be a moral patient one has to be a moral agent. Adherents to this thesis must think that animal rightists have got it all wrong. I have not however come across an argument for this thesis yet - merely a statement of it. Anyone know more about this?
It is kind of paradoxical that animal rights activists seem to be more militant than the animal welfare people, to the point that some of them issue death threats. Believers in rights cannot use utilitarian-style 'ends justify the means' arguments to support the use of such tactics. I guess that such people are really rather confused fanatics. I also suspect that the animal rights vs. animal welfare distinction means one thing in the context of philosophical discussion, and another thing in the context of popular campaigning.
I'm not entirely sure that splitting animal rights and animal welfare across two pages is the right approach, as it is difficult to talk about one without talking about the other, and we now have a lot of duplication. I think separate headings on a single page would be better.
-- Publunch 16:59, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm new here - hopefully my revisions are acceptable. Didn't know about the "Edit Summary" feature. I added some stuff to the Animal Rights in Practice section to make it more reflective of what animal rights supporters actually think about specific issues, like vegetarianism and fur. Does anyone know if we could change the order at all? It seems very strange to have the "Animals and the Law" section near the beginning, since it's mosty unconnected to the rest of the article, and isn't very important.
Anyway, in response to the above, the distinction between animal rights and animal welfare in practice is this: animal welfare people are opposed to "unnecessary" animal suffering, where "unnecessary" means basically that no human desire or want is abridged by ending the suffering. Animal rights people actually think that some benefits to humanity (gustatory pleasure, vanity, etc.) are not sufficient to outweigh some harms to animals (like pain, slaughter, and confinement). The difference is not in philosophic constructs, but rather in the resolution of conflicts of human and animal interests.
Philosophy is much less central to the movement than most people seem to think, probably because reporters and writers outside the movement have had a much easier time reading published philosophy books than finding and talking to grassroots animal rights activists.
I think the two deserve separate articles - the reason they feel like they belong together is that the current article focuses more on how animal rights is different from animal welfare than on what it actually is. When more content is added, the two will have a lot of non-overlap. The history of the two movements, especially, is very different, although I'm not really qualified to write much about it.
-- -SpaceMoose 09:25, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
A section of this archive has been blanked as a courtesy. |
I don't think this picture is a very accurate representation of animal rights. Did the German soldiers care about horses' "rights," or did they just not want their horses to die, just as they wouldn't want their trucks to break nowadays? Thoughts?- LtNOWIS 02:34, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Who put up the "disputed" warning, and why? If the idea is that PETA's "strange behavior" and the activities of anti-vivisection activists should be condemned ("looked at from a moral standpoint"), this is precisely what an encyclopedia article ought NOT to do. The intent of this article is to explain what the concept of "animal rights" means. That involves saying what animal-rights advocates believe. Doing so does not mean either advocating or condemning animal rights. Unless the disputer can explain clearly what the alleged problem with the article is, he/she should take down the warning sign. A case could be made for adding a bit more under "Criticism of animal rights", and I would be willing to do. Some critics (e.g., Jan Narveson, R.G. Frey) are hostile to the notion of animal liberation, but some critics (e.g., ecofeminist Carol Adams) are advocates of animal liberation but believe the focus on moral rights is seriously inadequate.
This seems a bit POV to me. Anyone know of a better way to put this?
What is the alleged POV problem here? There's a difference between describing the point of view of those one is writing about -- something that is necessary in this case -- and imposing one's own point of view on the material. Thus, "it makes no sense to ascribe rights to them" accurately describes the view of those whose position is being explained. "Do these humans have no moral rights?" refers to a major issue in the debate over animal liberation, namely the so-called "argument from marginal cases": i.e., those who deny full moral standing to animals must deal with the problem posed for them by the overlap in mental capacities between (some) humans and (some) animals. Carl Cohen recognizes this problem and tries to deal with it by basing his argument for moral standing on "kinds" of beings rather than the capacities of particular individuals, as pointed out in the passage. His solution does indeed have the implication mentioned. (Whether it is a good idea to include severely mentally handicapped humans in the moral community while excluding clever chimpanzees, is for the reader to judge.) The contractarian position, however, which is referred to next (see main text) avoids this implication of Cohen's position. I am going to alter the text slightly to mention the argument from marginal cases. (Thanks for spurring me to do this; I think the result makes things a bit clearer for readers.)
Re. the "Criticisms of Animal Rights" section: Who exactly is it that criticizes animal rights from a "Marxian or historicist perspective", and which animal-rights supporters "often" take this as a might-makes-right argument? As far as I know, such a perspective has not been articulated to any significant extent in the debate over the moral status of animals, and therefore should probably not be included in this article. The fact that someone could make such an argument is irrelevant, it seems to me. Scales 08:45, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ted Benton (Natural Relations: Ecology, Animal Rights, and Social Justice) and David Nibert (Animal Rights/Human Rights: Entanglements of Oppression and Liberation) have addressed the topic from a Marxist perspective, but both support animal liberation. Benton does not reject the notion of animal rights, though he finds it inadequate and prefers to talk in terms of human duties to animals. The current entry should be changed to make it clear that a Marxist perspective is not necessarily hostile to animal liberation in general or animal rights in particular. Scales
Isn't this whole animal-rights argument is a bit futile? Is there a way, after all, to show that one claim about animal rights is more "true" than other? I don't really seem to understand all those animal rights defenders, there are no truth with which they can try to convience people to defend animals. This all sounds senseless to me.
Scales, thanks for your e-mail. I'll talk to you about this later on Thursday on this page, if that's okay with you. Best, SlimVirgin (talk) 07:43, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
I'm pasting the alternative introductions onto this page so we can take a look at them. Yours is:
Animal rights is the viewpoint that (non-human) animals have moral rights that prohibit humans from violating their basic interests, and that they ought to have legal rights to protect those interests.
The term "animal rights" is commonly used as a synonym for " animal liberation". However, not all those who favour liberating animals from human domination (e.g. some utilitarians and feminists) believe that the concept of moral rights is the best ethical approach to take.
Mine is:
The philosophy of animal rights refers to the view that non-human animals ought to have certain basic rights enshrined in law to ensure the protection of their most important interests.
Switzerland passed legislation in 1992 recognizing animals as beings, not things, and in 2002, rights for non-human animals were enshrined in the German constitution when its upper house of parliament voted to add the words "and animals" to the clause in the constitution obliging the state to respect and protect the dignity of human beings. [1] The Seattle-based Great Ape Project, founded by Australian philosopher Peter Singer, is campaigning for a United Nations Declaration on the Rights of the Great Ape. [2]
Some animal-rights theorists argue that animals, like humans, have moral rights, while others take a utilitarian approach. The term "animal rights" is therefore more commonly taken to refer to animal liberation, and need not imply that its supporters advocate a rights-based moral philosophy.
Most, if not all, animal-rights theorists agree that to regard non-human animals as different in kind from humans, and undeserving of legal rights for that reason, is to be guilty of speciesism, a form of prejudice that, they argue, has no philosophical or biological justification. [3] SlimVirgin (talk) 16:22, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
(Copied with permission from Scales' e-mail to SlimVirgin):
I respectfully take issue with your emphasis on legal rights when you say: "The philosophy of animal rights refers to the view that non-human animals ought to have certain basis [sic] rights enshrined in law to ensure the protection of their most important interests." The PHILOSOPHY of animal rights is essentially just that: philosophy, and in particular, a branch of MORAL philosophy: hence, it is primarily about MORAL, not legal, rights -- or, in the broader sense of animal liberation, about the equal consideration of interests. It is perfectly okay to refer to the struggle for legal rights for animals in the article, but that should not be the way the article begins. The movement to give animals legal rights grows out of the philosophy of animal liberation, including the important branch of it that ascribes moral rights to animals. First comes moral philosophy, then law. (Actually, first comes compassion, then moral philosophy, then law.)
You say: "Some animal-rights theorists argue that animals, like humans, have moral rights, while others take a utilitarian approach. The term "animal rights" is therefore more commonly taken to refer to animal liberation, and need not imply that its supporters advocate a rights-based moral philosophy." I find this way of putting things confusing. In terms of moral philosophy, NO animal-rights theorists take a utilitarian approach. Some animal-liberation theorists take a utilitarian approach; others take a rights approach; others take a feminist approach; etc. I also find it vague or confusing to say that "'animal rights' is...taken to refer to animal liberation"; rather, the term "animal rights" is commonly confused with the broader notion of "animal liberation". Scales
About legal rights: as you know, legal rights are assigned to corporations, and my understanding is that they could be assigned in principle to anything society might decide it useful to give them to: old-growth forests, old-master paintings, ticket stubs from Celine Dion concerts, etc. Animal liberation/animal rights is about more than legal standing for animals; it's about our moral obligations to animals as sentient individuals who have experiences and lives that matter to them -- something that is not true in the case of ticket stubs or old-growth forests or corporations per se. So it seems to me that the heart of animal liberation/animal rights is morality, not legality. As I suggested in my e-mail, the push for laws protecting animals (which, I agree, is very important) grows out of the moral stance (the claim that animals should be included in the moral community). Scales
I'm not sure if this is an appropriate section to pose this, but its the closest in the talk page. While both Animal rights and Animal welfare mention briefly the distinction I'm surprised that neither pages present the other's criticisms of their ideas. I find that this is lacking in both articles, but I'm afraid I lack really the education in the topics to write a paragraph on them (I actually came here looking for more on this). I was wondering if anybody would be willing to start some paragraph or something about the difference in arguing for good treatment of animals from the standpoint of human moral obligation than from defense of animals as moral agents. I really feel that the criticisms of animal rights from the arguments from sympathy and humane treatment need to be included. Kablamo2007 6 July 2005 03:55 (UTC)
SlimVirgin, you say "The philosophy of animal rights refers to the view that non-human animals ought to have certain basic rights enshrined in law to ensure the protection of their most important interests." If by "rights" is meant legal rights, then adding "enshrined in law" is redundant. On the other hand, if the idea here is that animals have moral rights that ought to be enshrined in law, the sentence needs to be rephrased, doesn't it? And doesn't the first sentence in Version 1, above, cover the bases in this regard?
You're quite right that the distinction between "animal liberation" and "animal rights" is more an academic than an everyday one. That's what the second sentence in Version 1, above, is meant to point out. Isn't a Wikipedia article just the place to point out this distinction to readers? Given that so many leading writers in the debate, including many on the pro-animal side (notably Peter Singer and some feminists) reject, or at least shy away from, ascribing moral rights to animals, "animal liberation" is a more exact term for the whole movement than is "animal rights". Still, we have to recognize that most people will look up the subject under "Animal Rights".
What if we said something like this: Animal rights (or animal liberation) is the movement to protect (non-human) animals from being exploited by humans. It is a radical movement, insofar as it aims not merely to attain more humane treatment for animals, but to include many animals within the moral community — that is, all those whose basic interests (for example, in not being made to suffer unnecessarily) ought to be given the same consideration as our own similar interests. The claim, in other words, is that these animals must no longer be regarded legally or morally as property, or treated merely as resources for human purposes. To this end the movement advocates that many animals be given legal rights to protect their basic interests.
The above paragraph is a slightly modified version of the first paragraph in the "Animal Liberation" entry. If the essence of the second paragraph from that entry (outlining the disinction between "animal rights" and "animal liberation") were added to the "Animal Rights" entry, we could then delete the "Animal Liberation" entry and simply have a link from "Animal Liberation" to "Animal Rights". What do you think? Scales
I'm glad we're in basic agreement. I don't think the sentence you refer to is tautologous. The words "all those whose basic interests...ought to be given the same consideration as our own similar interests" is a definition of the moral community. The sentence simply says that many animals ought to have their basic interests given the same consideration as our similar interests. There may be other, slightly different, ways of defining the moral community. However, I don't know of any writer or activist who claims that all animals ought to be admitted to the moral community (i.e., "liberated" or given legal rights). Insects? Amoebas? Singer proposes one criterion (sentience) for who gets in; Regan proposes a slightly different one (being the "subject-of-a-life"). It's questionable whether insects or amoebas have any interests, in the sense in which interests require having desires or subjective preferences. At one point Singer suggested drawing the line for who gets in "somewhere between a shrimp and an oyster". The issue is partly an empirical one, dependent on what science tells us about the inner lives of different creatures.
This brings up the issue of personhood. One way of defining personhood could be in terms of anyone who qualifies for inclusion in the moral community (i.e., anyone who meets the criterion we select: sentience, or subject-of-a-life, or whatever). However, personhood can also be reserved for, say, those who are rational or who have a sense of self. This would mean that some who are legitimately members of the moral community, like very young children or sparrows, might not qualify as persons. Scales 23:02, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Weeks ago I suggested that the paragraph in the "Criticism of Animal Rights" section about "one marxian or historicist perspective" was not representative of any substantial, actually-existing Marxist facet of the animal-rights debate, but was essentially someone's idea of "here's how someone might critique animal rights"; also, the paragraph gave the misleading impression that most of those currently writing on the subject from a Marxist perspective are opposed to animal rights/liberation, when in fact the opposite is the case. Since there has been no response from whoever posted the paragraph, since the Animal Rights article is now at or beyond its Wikipedia-recommended limit, and since the sensible part of the paragraph in question is mentioned earlier in the section on "Criticism of Animal Rights" ("Unless one is a moral agent, the argument goes, one cannot claim rights for oneself or be held accountable for respecting the rights of others"), I have deleted the paragraph. Scales 02:21, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I might be wrong, but it seems like this page should be called Animal liberation, because that's the more general of the two terms (AR and AL), since some animal liberationists don't believe in animal rights. (And hence it is technically out of place for them to be on a page with the current title.)
If the page was called "Animal liberation", it could talk about animal lib generally for most of the article, and then have a section on how some (most?) animal liberationists think animals should have specific rights analogous to human rights. It probably wouldn't involve much editing of the content itself, just moving a few things around. Then Animal rights could be a redirect to Animal liberation.
I hope I'm not rehashing something you all talked about above; I skimmed the previous talk but I didn't see anything about the idea of moving the page. Zach (t) 22:23, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the following quote attributed to Leonardo da Vinci:
"I have from an early age abjured the use of meat, and the time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men"
Da Vinci, never said this. This is, instead, from an early 20th century novel about the great artist and inventor's life, Romance of Leonardo da Vinci. This particular fake quote was the result of an accidental transposition of two quotes in Jon Wynne-Tyson's book The Extended Circle: A Commonplace Book of Animal Rights.
The following page seems credible on the subject of Einstein and vegetarianism: http://www.ivu.org/history/northam20a/einstein.html . It indicates that he not only approved of vegetarianism, but adopted a vegetarian diet near the end of his life, citing a letter dated March 30, 1954. It also gives a possible source for another oft-quoted remark of his. Scales 04:04, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
I can't find a source for that Einstein quote, though it is well known, but Wikiquote [4] gives a citation for this one:
Letter to Vegetarian Watch-Tower (27 December 1930)
--
Dforest 04:56, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Hi Crumb, you put the NPOV tag on a few days ago. For this to be used correctly, you need to make actionable suggestions for improvement, and these have to be consistent with our policies, so please let us know what you'd like to see changed. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 07:18, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for removing the tag, Crumb. I appreciate it. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:12, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
This quote from the article: Cohen’s position implies that while a human being with the mental capacity of a mouse has full moral standing, a mutant chimpanzee with an I.Q. of 150, who regularly contributed articles on philosophy to Wikipedia, would have no rights whatever. seems a little POV for me. While it could be argued that the above is true, I don't think the article should simply state it as fact. It could equally well be argued to be false (eg, a mutant chimpanzee would be a different kind to normal chimpanzees and so could have rights, and a non-mutant chimpanzee would not have the linguistic abilities to contribute to wikipedia or the moral concepts to be a moral being, however intelligent). Perhaps it should say that that is an objection to his view, rather than an actual problem with it. I don't like to edit articles myself, I am an anonymous newbie. 212.9.22.222 14:27, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
I was curious as to why the link as the main website ( http://anesthesiaswonderland.bravehost.com/index.html ) is a Animal Rights resource and the online community ( http://p2.forumforfree.com/anesthesiaswond.html) is also related to animal rights. may I ask exactly what is the problem with the website?
well i've been visiting Anesthesia's Wonderland for about a month now and the community and the site itself that sprung up is pro-animal rights just like its forums, but allows for both sides to express its views. KerryJones
A section of this archive has been blanked as a courtesy. |
This article is not neutral.
Idea that animals have rights does not imply that they should not be used humanely, or must be "liberated" from "human domination". Radical extremiss, like Animal Liberation Front are not typical for animal rights.
Article does not properly distinguish different animal welfare concepts. Eg. most people agree that animals raised for food should be killed humanely, but far fewer agree that animals cannot be rased for food.
Indeed, this article plays to propaganda that acknowledging some animal rights (which most people do) is equal to agreeing to "animal liberation" whatever it means (few people agree) or accepting animal rights-motivated violence towards humans (even fewer people agree).
Artifically lumping these topics is damaging to opinion of less extreme animal right groups.
It is also very unlikely that animals feel or can understand being "dominated" by human e.g. farmer on a farm (it requires far greater mental skills than suffering from eg. cramped conditions or feeling pain). It is also likely that "freeing" animals can result in their extinction (How many pigs live in countries where people don't eat pork?). Unsigned by User:141.14.19.45
Few organisations wish to be put in line with "animal-terrorists", particulary after recent grave-digging excesses of ALF. And hardly any supporter of animal rights, at least outside UK, would support ALF. And please, introduce clear note that animal rights are not welfare (it is on animal welfare page, but not at animal rights) and are not liberation. Unsigned by User:141.14.19.45
With your speedy responses, please put information that "animal welfare" is different from "animal rights" for clear information for wiki users. Please also expand "criticism" section. Current article is not neutral but heavily tends towards propaganda. Wikipedia is meant to provide neutral info, not advocate goals, even worthy ones. Common sense says that any organisation, especially ones which hope for public support, are damaged by lumping with law-breaking and violent extremist branch. It is true even if I am not aware that any particular organisation specificaly protested against it. plumber
Idleguy, I don't regard you as editing in good faith here. While legitimate, well-sourced criticism of the concept of animal rights is welcome, personal essays are not. You can't suddenly stick into the middle of an article on AR that there are people in Africa starving. This was what my mother used to say to get me to eat, ironically given the context, meat. It's a silly argument: just because there are human-rights abuses doesn't mean there aren't other kinds of injustices in the world. But regardless, arguments need to be relevant and referenced, otherwise they're original research. See Wikipedia:No original research. And for the record, I'm noting here that you've nominated several animal-rights related images for deletion even though they were correctly tagged and sourced. Your lack of good faith is sadly apparent. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:52, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
The Hawking quote is perfectly fair and I'd actually suggest leaving in the first comment on medical research--he's outspoken on this subject generally (stem cell debate, for instance, as I recall). Regarding Africa, specific issues could be noted. Bushmeat, for example--bad idea but people eat what's available. There's also Shooting, shoveling, and shutting up to illustrate the feeling amongst rural folk that animal rights laws are out of touch with their reality. I actually think the criticism section could say more with less space and should be gone over. Marskell 16:50, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I have re-added the para claiming donations go mainly to professional organizers, etc, as a direct quote from the source Idleguy provided.
As of now, only the following points from eis original paragraphs are not present: critics say that basic human rights and human welfare are more important than animal rights and are being ignored by animal rights activists, such critics use Africa as an example of an area lacking these basic rights and welfare, such critics ask animal rights activist to improve all human conditions to the level of animal conditions before trying to improve animal conditions.
While Idleguy may consider these points obvious, it is a basic tenent of Wikipedia that any fact can be questioned and a source required. IMO, the final goal for Wikipedia is to have each and every claim made in the 'pedia have multiple reliable sources. Also, these seem like claims for which sources should be available; if critics have said this, we ought to be able to quote them directly. Thanks again to everyone for working to improve the 'pedia! JesseW, the juggling janitor 21:32, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
It seems a bit odd that the intro contains two large paragraphs about animal rights followed by one small paragraph on animal welfare, followed by a paragraph of animal rights criticism of animal welfare. I see two large "animal rights" paragraph and one small "animal welfare" paragraph to already be skewed in the favor of animal rights, and tacking on the "animal rights" criticism of "animal welfare" seems to be over the top favoritism. I think it is already clear that animal rights advocates think that anything less than animal rights is morally unacceptable, and I don't see a reason to include it as a pot-shot against animal welfare. The PETA quote of "something is better than nothing" seems grasping. Animal rights say they are against cruelty and exploitation. The animal welfare POV says their POV is not exploitive or cruel. That should be the end of it. FuelWagon 16:19, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the National Beef association as a source and replaced it with the Foundation for Animal Use Education as a source. Their website has a lot more information, links, and quotes. FuelWagon 23:41, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
SlimVirgin: you did a blind revert of quite a bit of work I had done. Your edit summary said it was "minor", and you made no mention of why you did the revert on the talk page. I find it interesting since you were the one who was complaining about the National Cattleman quotation as being "inappropriate", so I went and found a more "appropriate" source. I replaced the criticism paragraph quoting the Cattlemen organization with sourced quotes from notable experts and a URL to back up each and every one of them. Yet you reverted it, completely, wholly, and without a single word of explanation, marking your revert as "minor". Given the emphasis by wikipedia on the importance of source quotes from notable experts with URL's to back them up, perhaps you could give some sort of a legitimate explanation for your massive revert of all these sourced quotes from notable experts with URL's to back them up. Without any such explanation, I'm left to assume this was simply the product of POV pushing on your part. FuelWagon 15:09, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
re: this complete deletion: the introduction must at least mention the other major points of view around the topic or it fails NPOV. there is a major POV that opposes "animal rights" and it goes by the name "animal welfare". First SlimVirgin deleted the paragraph I added because she said it was "too long". Then she deleted it saying "don't just list quotes". So I did a complete rewrite, and now you delete it because it is "redundant"? Nice. The intro contains a short sample of the animal welfare POV. It is not redundant with the main text because the main text contains the full background of that POV. Quotes are given more context, etc. Any major point made in the intro should be covered again in the body of the article, or it wasn't worth introducing. It isn't "redundant", it's good editing: introduce the topic in the intro, then go into full detail in the body of the article. FuelWagon 16:45, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Since SlimVirgin is claiming I don't understand NPOV policy, I thought I'd review the introduction that she is claiming to be "neutral" and break it down word-by-word, phrase-by-phrase. Here are a few intersting little tidbits I found in the current introduction that someone who has more "understanding" of NPOV than I, can perhaps explain to me: ( FuelWagon 04:50, 26 November 2005 (UTC))
Main Entry: 2ex·ploit Pronunciation: ik-'sploit, 'ek-" Function: transitive verb 1 : to make productive use of : UTILIZE <exploiting your talents> <exploit your opponent's weakness> 2 : to make use of meanly or unjustly for one's own advantage <exploiting migrant farm workers>
FuelWagon (
talk •
contribs) Wrote:I've tried to summarize what I see as biased, disputed, and emotionally loaded language in the introduction
There followed a lengthy discussion that (in large) addressed issues other than article content. The full text of this can now be found at:
Talk:Animal rights/Article RfC.
brenneman
(t)
(c) 00:02, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Here from RfC..I find the 1st graf hard to read; ideally, it should present the bare bones definition of the subject in question in a concise manner. I have no comment at this time re POV, but I would suggest that a graf later on in the article under "overview" would be a much better choice as the opening graf. "Animal rights is the concept that all or some animals are entitled to possess their own lives; that animals are deserving of, or already possess, certain moral rights; and that some basic rights for animals ought to be enshrined in law. The animal-rights view rejects the concept that animals are merely capital goods or property intended for the benefit of humans. The concept is often confused with animal welfare, which is the philosophy that takes cruelty towards animals and animal suffering into account, but that does not necessarily assign specific moral rights to them." I think that defines the subject pretty well, especially putting the confusion with animal welfare up front, as it is an easy distinction to elide.
IronDuke 19:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I have simply taken the intro as stands, and fixed what I regard as excessively POV language, such as "non-human animals" or "non-human great apes" -- these are not standard English usage, and if used should be placed in quotes, indicating that they belong to a special vocabulary preferred by animal rights activists. The same goes for "moral community," which I left in, but in quotes with qualifying language. I believe it is also possible for animal rights protection to be added to the German constitution without being "enshrined" in it. The one other change that I made was the elimination of a redundancy in the first paragraph, where there are two sentences that say basically the same thing, that animals shall not be regarded as property. I combined them into one sentence at the beginning. -- HK 00:58, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Animal rights, or animal liberation, is the movement to assert and establish a status for animals, such that they may no longer be regarded legally or morally as property, or treated merely as resources for human purposes, but should instead be regarded as persons. It is a radical movement, insofar as it aims not merely to attain more humane treatment for animals, but to include many animals within what animal rights activists call the "moral community" — that is, all those whose basic interests (for example, in not being made to suffer unnecessarily) ought to be given the same consideration as our own similar interests. To this end the movement advocates that many animals be given legal rights to protect their basic interests.
Some countries have taken the first step toward awarding personhood to animals. Switzerland passed legislation in 1992 recognizing animals as beings, not things, and in 2002, the protection of animals was added to in the German constitution. The Seattle-based Great Ape Project, founded by Australian philosopher Peter Singer, is campaigning for the United Nations to adopt its Declaration on Great Apes, which would see gorillas, orang-utans, and both species of chimpanzee included in a "community of equals" with human beings, and which would extend to the apes the protection of three basic interests: the right to life, the protection of individual liberty, and the prohibition of torture. [7] For information about individual activists and groups, as well as their aims and methodologies, see Animal liberation movement.
Critics, such as the Foundation for Animal Use Education, state that animal rights leaders show a "fundamentally anti-human perspective". [8] Critics generally support animal welfare instead. The American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) has defined animal welfare as "a human responsibility that encompasses all aspects of animal well-being, including proper housing, management, nutrition, disease prevention and treatment, responsible care, human handling, and, when necessary, humane euthanasia." [9]
I don't know much about it, but these sounds like the types of distinctions that a good encyclopedia article should make. We don't want Wikipedia to say that one side or another's point of view is RIGHT - rather we want to describe what each side SAYS about animal rights. Uncle Ed 02:40, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
The sentence "Some countries have taken the first step toward awarding personhood to non-human animals" is logically unsound. Persons are by definition human. Perhaps a better term could be found. The whole sentence, incidentally, is gazing in a crystal globe. Who says there will be "person"hood for animals, and who says this was the aim of the legislation discussed? JFW | T@lk 01:52, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
There must be a better word. The present version suggests there is no form between inanimate things and persons. JFW | T@lk 02:50, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
This talk page is really long. Any objections to me summarising it a bit? - brenneman (t) (c) 03:34, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
If we are to have one or two criticism paragraphs (perhaps instead of the current second one to reduce length), here's a suggestion below. Or we could have the current second para, and the first one below as a third. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:00, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Critics of the concept of animal rights argue that, because animals do not have the capacity to make moral choices, cannot respect the rights of others, and do not even understand the idea of rights, they cannot be regarded as possessors of moral rights. The philosopher Roger Scruton argues that only human beings have duties and that "[t]he corollary is inescapable: we alone have rights." [10] Critics holding this position argue that there is therefore nothing inherently wrong with using animals for food, as entertainment, and in research, though human beings may nevertheless have an obligation to ensure they do not suffer unnecessarily (Frey 1980 and Scruton 1997). This position is generally called the animal-welfare position, and it is held by some of the oldest of the animal-protection agencies: for example, by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals in the UK.
Other philosophers, like Peter Singer, argue for equal moral consideration for animals without adopting a rights-based position. Singer argues that a capacity to suffer is a necessary and sufficient condition for ascribing interests to an individual (at the very least, an interest in not suffering); and where it can be established that an individual has interests, there can be no justification for allowing that individual to be treated in a way that ignores those interests, unless we can show that some of the interests are inferior in morally significant ways (Singer 1975). The implication of what Scruton has called this "vacuous utilitarianism," [11] which counts the pain and pleasure of all living beings as equally significant and removes any special moral status from humans, is that we may be forced not only to recognize that the interests of animals are equal to our own, but also that, in some circumstances, they may outweigh those of a human being. It could be argued, for example, that the interests of a fully-grown chimpanzee outweigh those of a human being in a persistent vegetative state. Many critics of animal rights or animal liberation find this conclusion morally repugnant.
I second Babajobu's comments. SlimVirgin, you've done an excellent job. Scales 18:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I am certainly not saying that I disagree with what everyone else has agreed to -- it is by no means clear to me, who has agreed to what. You simply proclaimed that the dispute was over, and as I was responding a few hours later, your POV ally Jayig was unprotecting the page. Then, shortly after you reverted my edits, Jayig reprotected. With this many editors at work on the article, it may take more than two hours to establish whether we really have a consensus.
I made my objections to the POV language in the intro clear. You responded by suggesting that the term "non-human apes" was more or less equivalent to "non-human-primates," which is not the case. You have made no argument to support a contention that "non-human animals" and "non-human apes" are standard usage, and therefore should be included in the intro without quotation marks, or attribution to the pro-animal rights POV. Similarly, the term "moral community" should be in quotes, because the idea of "including animals within the moral community" is way out of the philosophical "mainstream," and saying the the protection of animals was "enshrined" in the German constitution is unnecessary and a bit ridiculous. On the whole, SlimVirgin, this article is an advocacy piece, down to the parody of the Sistine chapel that is "enshrined" in the "great apes" image. Nonetheless, with the minor corrections that I made, and you reverted, I think the intro will do. You should elucidate the grounds for your objections to these minor corrections. -- HK 16:30, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
visitor from rfc: the introduction reads like a (slightly polished) manifesto, not an encyclopedia article. it is too long, takes many assumptions for granted, & uses language like "first step" implying positive progress, to give one small example. Appleby 01:58, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Good points, IronDuke, thank you. About the animal rights/liberation distinction, we have another suggested paragraph for the intro (see the three above, and then this would be the fourth). See below. It goes into liberation/rights, but other editors said they'd prefer to see it in the criticism section. It would be hard to say anything of note about the various movements in the intro without it getting very long, but maybe I'll try to think of something. Regarding animal welfare and who is/is not: I think everyone who isn't animal rights would say they're animal welfare, because the only other alternative is to say we owe animals no duty of care whatsoever and may cause as much suffering as we want, a position no one will admit to holding, as a rule anyway. So in that sense, Scruton counts as animal welfare, but in reality, his main thing is just to argue against animal rights. Finally, the cites in brackets are called Harvard referencing and it's one of the citation styles allowed by WP:CITE. Thanks for these comments. They're very helpful. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Other philosophers, like Peter Singer, argue for equal moral consideration for animals without adopting a rights-based position. Singer argues that a capacity to suffer is a necessary and sufficient condition for ascribing interests to an individual (at the very least, an interest in not suffering); and where it can be established that an individual has interests, there can be no justification for allowing that individual to be treated in a way that ignores those interests, unless we can show that some of the interests are inferior in morally significant ways (Singer 1975). The implication of what Scruton has called this "vacuous utilitarianism," [14] which counts the pain and pleasure of all living beings as equally significant and removes any special moral status from humans, is that we may be forced not only to recognize that the interests of animals are equal to our own, but also that, in some circumstances, they may outweigh those of a human being. It could be argued, for example, that the interests of a fully-grown chimpanzee outweigh those of a human being in a persistent vegetative state. Many critics of animal rights or animal liberation find this conclusion morally repugnant.
We seem to have a lot of 'em. On another page (like Loudspeaker) I'd just clean up and get permission later. However, I'll go gently here. Any reason we need this many? Refering of course to Wikipedia:External links. - brenneman (t) (c) 00:34, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I was editing and someone was reverting my changes so I'll post them here in case my addition to the intro gets reverted. Here is what I want to add:
"The animal rights movement mostly consists of morally bankrupt violent extremists intent on spreading propaganda throughout the liberal media, while those opposed to their views are generally nihilist sociopaths, more generally, evangelical Christians waiting for the apocalypse."
Judging from the tone of the article, this seems to be correct. What do you guys think: put it in or leave it out? -- Ben 00:47, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
What happened to the Animal Rights and the Media secion that spoke about the Animal Voices radio show? I was going to add links to other AR radio shows.....
Do you think if it is appropriate if I list it (and the other animal rights radio shows) under "resources"? I think it is important to note that there are radio programs as well as magazines, newspapers, etc., that are dedicated specifically to exploring these issues.. The one radio show in particular has online archieves with all the interviews they have every done... all the authors mentioned on this page are there. What do you think? Jan 11, 06
That "detailed" bothers me some, since the chunky two paragraph quote it produces as evidence has little detail to offer against the very specific charge concerning NAZI anti-vivisection legislation. The legislation was enacted almost ten years before the Holocaust really got underway. Critics do not make the comparison Francione avers. Instead, in my understanding, they are pointing out that in order to promote animals in status, it is necessary to demote humans from the existing, pre-eminent status we have afforded ourselves in our laws. That is, one must have a conception of humans which verges on losing the capacity to differentiate between humans and beasts. The bestial treatment of humans that ensued in the NAZI case adds oomf to the argument, but is not its fundament. The NAZI anti-vivisection philosophy is taken to be an early-warning sign of a general philosophical readiness to demote human beings. I just don't see how the Francione bluster here amounts to a riposte, let alone a detailed one. Adhib 23:53, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
I removed the part about how critics say that animals "do not have the capacity to enter into a social contract." First of all, I am not certain that it is true. Pets or domesticated animals that are not confined might be said to be willing participants in some sort of arrangement. More importantly, the concept of a social contract comes from John Locke, whose conception of human relations ought generally to be considered bestial. And finally, no source was offered for the inclusion of that item under "critics say," so I removed it until someone wants to document it. -- HK 16:05, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Arthur Schopenhauer's critique of Kant's exclusion of animals from his moral system is based on Kant's Groundwork of the Metaphysic of Morals, where he argues that "humans have an inherent dignity that makes them ends in themselves, whereas animals are mere means to our ends." He argues that we do have a responsibility towards animals, but an indirect one. I looked on all relevant articles on wikipedia, and none of them explains this aspect of Kant's philosophy. Maybe it will be appropriate to explain it here since it is directly related to the animal rights debate. Also, ever since Darwin published The Origin of Species, this "inherent dignity" theory is widely debated, in our times for example, by Peter Singer. This is a good reference worth a read. deeptrivia ( talk) 02:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Typically, a discussion on animal rights also includes Descartes' automata theory ("animals are automata that act as if they are conscious"), Aquinas ("since animals cannot direct their actions, they are merely instruments that exist for the sake of humans"), and Carruthers who extends Rawls' concept of Justice as Fairness to argue against animal rights. Right now I pulled these out of my head, but can find out references. I think these inclusions will make the discussion more complete. deeptrivia ( talk) 04:16, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Ultimately, Dr. Peter Singer has the correct, utilitarian point of view. Words and phrases such as "exploitation" or "rights" are useful to a degree, but what matters is ultimately 1) the good outweighing the bad (utilitarianism) 2) the good outweighing the bad for those who deserve it (justice), i.e. to those who do not initiate force.
It is mathematically certain that utilitarianism and justice will be in conflict in any dispute over any moral or political issue.
Game theorists have formalized these concepts, making the drivel of armchair critics is worthless and obsolete, with notable exceptions of those who take groundbreaking, original ponits-of-view, such as Dr. Peter Singer.
So, all these debates about what some animal rights soldiers or organizations have said are trivial and irrelevant. What matters is what they do, the sacrifices they have made against insurmountable odds, and the suffering they have vastly reduced.
Fighting for animal rights should be viewed absolutely no differently than a judge or police officer fighting a burglarly, or soldiers fighting Nazis in World War II. Compromises will always need to be made, but that is always the fault of the non-animal rights side. Many take the view that war for animal rights is justified, and that those who oppose this war to outlaw factory farming and breeding animals for food in an age of technology where we can get our protein from non-animal sources are unpatriotic cowards.
This was removed:
1) It is too long for the quotes section, where we normally go for bite-sized, and this article's quotes section is long to begin with. It also doesn't make a point about animal rights; its point is that the end of vivisection will bring glory to the New Germany. We are not concerned about the glory of the New Germany here. The quote would make more sense on a page about the Nazi party.
2) It is POV pushing. Discussing comparisons of the animal rights movement with Nazism is completely appropriate in the article body, where these comparisons can be faithfully considered. But the quotes section should contain quotes that directly address the issue of whether animal rights are a good or a bad idea. The quote itself doesn't make a succinct or poetic point about animal rights--it is the fact that it is obvious Nazi propaganda that makes a point. That context means that the quote cannot be taken seriously. It is POV pushing via a kind of straw man argument. If you disagree, please see (1) and please do not revert before you reply here. -- The Famous Movie Director 08:16, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
-Ayn Rand.
I think this quote and perhaps an economists view on animal rights would be a much better idea than the 'nazi' argument. After all arn't the majority of industries affected by Animal Rights Terrorism capatalist industries: drug industry, animal products, cosmetic industrys? I mean SHAC think they are waging a guerilla war within the stock market. Most animals are considered capital arn't they? The majority of animals I come into contact with are packaged, apart from when I see cows in the field... thats not NPV tho.. heres another quote to go with it..
"a tiny group of activists (SHAC) succeeding where Karl Marx, the Baader-Meinhof gang and the Red Brigades failed" -The Financial Times.
I just think the whole nazi discussion is just plain BAD TASTE from either side! Xanax 10:35, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
This quote doesn't seem to have anything to do with animal rights (in that it makes no argument that, because animals "do not survive by rational thought," they should have no rights), so I'm thinking of removing it. Any objections? SlimVirgin (talk) 06:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
1.) do you present "both sides" of racism? Is there a section on "critics of, eg, black equality?" Should there be? If no, why do the same here?
2.) Delete the passage on Nazis. Anything we can agree is good was used by someone we can agree was horrible. Remember, Mussolini made the trains run on time. Should all trains be late because a bad person made them on time?
3.) The final criticism from Stephen Hawking should be deleted, unless he has the ultimate authority to define what a "more worthwhile cause" is. If person A believes that stopping ending a form of oppression is worthy enough to persue, who is person B to say that his favorite cause is more worthwhile?
4.) The original criticisms list could use some improvement, since it's left off in the middle, as it seems. It ends with "since non-human animals aren't capable of moral decision making." You should add the following points: (1) Yes, some apes are capable of some form of morality. (2) Moral judgement doesn't lead to rights. Brain-damaged humans (and babies) are entitled to rights, despite this lack of moral thought. The claim that the moral judgement "test" should not be administered by the individual is mentioned, but glazed over. It seems strange that your rights should depend on a test given to me. Furthermore, if mentally disabled humans don't take the test, but are included because others have passed, why not non-human animals with similar mental status? If they aren't included, why? "They're not human" is morally meaningless. (3) The article states that non-humans kill each other without thinking that it is wrong. This justifies letting humans do it? The argument seems to say: "Non-human animals are incapable of moral thought. Because of this, they act immorally towards each other. Therefore, we should be able to act immorally to them." It seems strange to say someone is immoral, and then look to them for moral inspiration.
5.) The "criticism" that non-human animal rights can be anti-human never criticizes the concept. It only attacks several of the concept's promoters. Whether Chris DeRose thinks it's justified to experiment on one rat to save an incurable disease (a purely hypothetical and impossible situation nonetheless) is irrelevent to whether non-humans should be entitled to legal rights. It certainly wouldn't make humans second-class citizens to do so; when everyone is equal, there are no second-class citizens.
6.) The section on animal welfare needs to be redone. "Animal Welfare" asks that we must provide for non-human animals "all aspects of animal well-being, including proper housing, management, nutrition, disease prevention and treatment, responsible care, human handling, and, when necessary, humane euthanasia." Some terms are vague, such as "proper" housing and "responsible" care, but the position can be classified in two general ways.
I can do most of the writing, but these problems must be addressed.
HK, Yes, I understand how you need to be neutral. However, many people, even today, are of the belief that some humans, whether they be black, Jewish, low-caste, or in some way different, are inferior. If you look at the wider world, it is highly controversial to suggest that all humans are entitled to equal rights and considerations. Look at fundamentalist terrorists who hate Jews; at many Americans (I'm looking solely at my own country here) who hate blacks; at the Christians (and, perhaps members of other religions) who think people who don't practice their beliefs are inferior; and at the vast majority of Americans who believe homosexuals are not entitled to equal rights. Perhaps you should include criticisms of the idea that all humans are entitled to equal treatment in the human rights article? Why do the two receive unequal treatment? Either include "criticisms of human rights" or include refutations of criticisms of nonhuman rights. Oh, and I never asked you to delete them; just to add the responses to them.
As for analogies to the Nazis, there are none that can be honestly made. Nazis did not come up with the idea of partial liberation of nonhumans "by chance," no, and yes, it did result from "blurring the distinctions between human and beast," assuming "beast" means any nonhuman. This does not mean that there is any honest analogy to the idea of full nonhuman liberation; you're comparing apples and rotten apples, in a sense. Nazis take a position against equality— they start with the idea that "not everyone is entitled to equal rights." Who gets made "superior" and who "inferior" is somewhat arbitrary. If it's a valid criticism of rights for nonhumans, it's also a criticism of rights for white, blue-eyed, and blond-haired humans. Today's nonhuman equality stems from the idea that everyone IS equal, and should be treated as such. Saying that Nazis' granting of rights to nonhumans is an argument against such rights means that you're looking to the Nazis for moral inspiration.
There is another passage, though, which must be deleted.
"Some critics, such as Alan Herscovici, of the Fur Council of Canada, claim that 'Virtually none of the money they collect is used to fund humane shelters, develop better animal husbandry methods, or find cures for diseases. Instead, donations pay the salaries of professional organizers, subsidize more fund-raising, and fuel sensationalist campaigns against animal-use industries.'"
What is Mr. Herscovici advising nonhuman rights organizations to do with their money?
1. Fund humane shelters 2. Develop better animal husbandry methods 3. Find cures for diseases.
Well, let's see.
1. Fund humane shelters.
This is a worthy cause, but not the cause they persue. These organizations are about liberation, i.e., banning slavery, torture, etc. Humane shelters are to care for dogs and cats who rely on caring humans. It's a worthy cause, but not the same one. To use an analogy, an abolitionist in pre-Civil War South wants to end slavery. He may focus on providing support and health care for free blacks, and will almost certainly agree that this is a worthy cause. However, HIS cause is to abolish slavery. Both are important causes, but one shouldn't expect an organization devoted to one to persue the other.
2. Develop better animal husbandry methods.
OK, where to start here? Perhaps disbelief. Is he really stating that organizations opposed to slavery of nonhumans should be spending their money developing better ways to exploit slaves? The organizations OPPOSE the use of non-human animals! It would be a criticism of them if they DID try and develop better ways to use them! Nonhuman rights organizations hope to STOP the murder of chickens for their flesh; how would their money be better spent developing "better" ways to raise chickens to be murdered?
3. Find cures for diseases.
This is unrelated. Finding cures for diseases is a worthy cause, but a different one. These organizations work for nonhuman equality, not cures for disease. Even cures for nonhuman diseases are a different cause; they're worthwhile, but have nothing to do with liberation.
What is it that non-human rights organizations do, then? He lists three things, which he is opposed to.
1. Pay the salaries of professional organizers 2. Subsidize more fund-raising 3. Fuel "sensationalist" campaigns against animal-use industries.
Well, what about this?
1. Pay the salaries of professional organizers.
This is a standard cost. Organizations have staff. Employees are necessary. Employees have to be paid. This can't be avoided.
2. Subsidize more fund-raising.
Since the organizations rely on fundraising, a percentage of their funds must be alloted to bringing in more. Spend $2, and bring in $25, for example. It's a necessary and unavoidable cost.
3. Fuel "sensationalist" campaigns against animal-use industries.
Organizations working for non-human rights oppose those who vioate non-human rights. Animal-use industries violate non-human rights. Therefore, organizations working for non-human rights oppose these industries.
In short, Mr. Herscovici says that non-human rights organizations should:
1. Start funding two causes irrelevant to their own
2. Start funding one cause that contradicts their own
3. Stop funding their own cause
4. Stop paying basic operating expenses
Mr. Herscovici does NOT give any criticism of nonhuman equality. He only presents a jumbled and incoherent notion of what organizations working for nonhuman equality "should" or "should not" do. Therefore, even if a "criticisms" section is needed to provide balance, this passage has no relevance in it.
eregweeet
HK, Yes, I see the part about the rebuttal of the Nazi comments. I must have missed it before. The thing is, is it really POV to eliminate jumbled and meaningless criticisms? Leaving Mr. Herscovici's remarks in place clouds the article with misinformation. Unless the reader thinks it over carefully, it seems to imply that non-human rights organizations spend all of their money on irrelevant or meaningless matters and are essentially hypocrites. Does Wikipedia check deeper and evaluate what people say, or merely aim for balanced "he said, she said" without carefully examining information to check for coherence, validity, or (depending on the issue and statement) factual truth? Most of the media in this country adopts a tepid NPOV in which two opposing sides are presented equally, with each side's argument presented verbatim, with no or little subsequent fact-checking, but this is far from ideal.
The anti-human section needs the Gary Francione position as the utalitarian positions is not genrally used by ARA. Also Fruitarian belifs are not an adoption of parody AR groups, but have exsted seperatly for some time before the other Xanax 01:19, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
these are two distinctly diffrent philosphies and movements and I believe that this article could be broken down to these diffrent topics and more information added. Xanax 00:35, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I am at some point soon going to attempt to write a little history on AL/AR for this page, any suggestions for inclusions or snippets can be posted as drafts here Xanax 00:44, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I wonder, there is no mention of United Animal Nations, and no Wikipedia article, yet they were coming into New Orleans when all others were evacuating. Does anyone have more information? Chris 20:47, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
This part is completely ridiculous. There's no need for it whatsoever. Just because the Nazis did something, and animal rights activists do it to, it doesn't make animal rights activists Nazis or make their actions in the least bit similar. This is a clear and obvious logical fallacy.
Are we to add to the page of vegetarianism that Hitler was a vegetarian as a 'criticism'? Are we to add to the page on dogs that because Hitler had one that's a valid criticism of them as a species?
An utterly idiotic and specious paragraph. Remove it in a week or I'll do it.
If anyone wants to replace the section, they should have a convincing reason to do so. At the moment it stands as a fallacy. Mostlyharmless 06:24, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Argreed. It's guilty-by-association logic, and was far too unfocused. I've never even heard this argued before seriously. -- Joewithajay 23:21, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
(About comment in 'history') Removal of cited material isn't "vandalism" if said material is an obscure theory that doesn't seem to have any fitting in an already long article. I've seen it mentioned several times on this discussion that the section simply is unneeded and, at best, uses weak logic - but it shouldn't be removed because I don't agree with it, it should be removed because this isn't an accurate reflection of the counter-argument on the subject (if anything it seems like it's written so animal-right supporters can almost laugh at the opposition’s case). And it does feel like original research to me - despite a few comments from Gary Francione. -- Joewithajay 18:49, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
My concern boils down to this - there's 4 key criticisms of animal rights in the article, and if we include the Nazi comparisons section, it communicates that this is used as an argument by roughly 25% of opponents (maybe moreso, since the section is so longer than the other arguements). I know that's not how it works in reality, but to include it within arguments which are used much more frequently gives it a false sense of importance. Maybe we could compromise and include it under ‘other arguments’, since, even if it was a topic of discussion, I doubt it’s still one used in modern debate (and if it is, could you cite recent examples?). -- Joewithajay 00:39, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed the Nazi section, but added it to the 'Animal rights can be anti-human' section. The Nazi section was referring to this argument anyway. Right now consensus is against having a whole section on the Nazi argument, so please leave it in its current form until we've discussed it more fully and not let this turn into an endless revert contest. (I see you reverted another removal of the section earlier today, without responding to discussion here) -- Joewithajay 19:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I think this is a great compromise. -- Joewithajay 00:08, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
This user (who has by the way been banned from editting on Larouche articles by way of ArbCom) keeps putting the quote back in. [18]-- Jersey Devil 17:47, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
It's clear to me there's a potentially interesting debate to be had on this issue, but an encyclopaedia article would be the wrong forum for such a debate. I will just note that the remaining trace reference to Nazism should be preserved, so that individuals like me coming to this article aren't tempted to whack in a whole new section. Adhib 23:29, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I just created this page and it needs expansion. See the talk page for suggestions. The Ungovernable Force 08:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I moved Husbandry Institute links to a new catagory -- as it does not promote AR, it does not belong in any of the other catagories. Welfare is different than rights. -- Biophilic 19:31, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
User:SlimVirgin reverted without discussion. Not good WP behaviour. I have reconsidered the edit and edited it accordingly. Pls discuss before reverting.
I have also attempted to copy edit and begin reorganisation in order to bring the word limit towards WP target. Please remember that bulk reverts are not good WP behaviour. In accordance with wikipedia policy I have referenced the points previously at the top and moved detail to the appropriate sections. The reference at the top to Frey and Scrutton was incomplete so I hope anyone who is wedded to it will complete it (note that Frey is in the references). Likewise with the RSPCA ref.
I've created a separate animal welfare quotes article and referenced it (note that not all the quotes were animal rights quotes, so I used the welfare tag - I hope this meets with consensus.
I've copy edited and merged the two criticsm sections (why have two??).
There is much POV on both sides which needs removing. Mccready 14:54, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Cute and happy monkey illustrating animal rights is captive-born baby Francois langur in London Zoo. As animal rights activists condemn zoos, it is ironic and inappropriate to use this photo.
Above reminded me of a need of discussion about distorting facts and fakes in animal rights movement. I fell it needs at least a mention and warning to users, who might take pictures from 1980's of small zoo cages and lab animals as typical to modern treatment of animals.
It is common. And very much common also in animal rights not only animal liberation. Anyway, as written below, I see no point of posting data which will be removed by biased admin. Wikipedia is for sharing facts, not making propaganda posters. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.14.19.45 ( talk • contribs) . i.e. Mccready ( talk · contribs).
This user has bulk reverted - agreed by some in the wikipedia community to amount to vandalism. The reasons given were that consensus had already been found for the lead. Even if this was accurate - there is no need to bulk revert. I have checked the talk page exhausitvely and find NO such consensus. Secondly, User:SlimVirgin's bulk revert deleted sections for which no reason was given. For example, the section on where to draw the line is very relevant to the article. Singer says animal research should stop only in certain cases. Others disagree.
Here are my reasons for undoing the damage caused by User:SlimVirgin
The following are examples of bad English which User:SlimVirgin's edited reinstated after I had worked to improve:
If User:SlimVirgin had bothered to check, he/she would have seen that quotes of the type he/she insists on putting it belong in wikiquotes. It would be a simple matter, as I did, to link out. The article is already too long to be further filled with his/her OR.
As I said, in my original post, the article needs work. It needs to show the different degrees of animal rights. If, for example, the view that it is wrong to protect yourself from animal attack is not a significant minority view, then there is no need to include the criticisms of Bidinotto (which strike me as strawman stuff).
Bulk reverts are not the way forward in this project. I look forward to working cooperatively with editors on this article but if User:SlimVirgin bulk reverts again and fails to address the above points in discussion, I will begin an RfC process against him/her. Mccready 01:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
User:SlimVirginwho is an administrator and should know better has offered inadequate explanation for her reverts. She claims the intro was agreed after discussion but provides no links to this to counter my research of the talk page.
Egregious, though I assume good faith, was her labelling of her bulk revert as minor in the edit summary.
She has a strong interest in the article, stating on her userpage "My main editing interests are the Middle East and animal rights". Given that, I would expect better behaviour than bulk reverts and a failure to discuss adequately. She fails to address most of the specific points I raised above and rather than repeat them here I ask her and others to do so if they wish to revert again.
I have carefully checked her edits and incorporated some of them and am happy to discuss. The following are my reasons for additional edits:
On the quotes issue. I am surprised that an administrator does not follow WP policy on this. By all means link to wikiquotes.
I've placed a link to Model organism. The statement is logical extrapolation needing no source.
I have taken great pains and much time to consider carefully each revert of User:SlimVirgin and expect the same respect from her. If User:SlimVirgin or anyone else bulk reverts for a third time without adequate discussion I will begin an RfC process. Mccready 09:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
My update disappeared suddenly.
I'm afraid user SlimVirgin is making propaganda from information. I see no further point in fighting with admin to put data. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.14.19.45 ( talk • contribs) .
User:SlimVirgin, I will not repeat myself. Please read my extensive points in two recent posts above and reply to them sensibly. You have already been critised on Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents:
The response to your question above is contained in posts I have already made. Have you read them? I agreed with you and took the list away in my very next edit, which you reverted seemingly without reading.
You stated on another page that I had removed criticism from the lead. In the absence your detailed reasoning, I can only hope my latest attempt meets your wishes.
For the fourth time, I have again spent a lot of time on this. Please do me the courtesy of trying to respond properly rather than bulk reverting. Mccready 06:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
per WP:RFPP, I have protected the article until the disputed edits have been hashed out here on the Talk page. Please remember that Wikipedia works by consensus. Tom e r talk 07:48, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Has consensus on the disputed text been reached? Tom e r talk 23:28, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Consensus has not been reached. There is no evidence that anyone has considered my points. I will not repeat what I have said above. The repeated reference to bacteria is becoming tiresome (I repealed it as soon as the error was pointed out) and shows again that my posts have not been read properly. SlimVirgin's version backtracks on earlier undertaking to remove things like "moral community", "enshrined".
I note the following sequence of events:
How Tomer could possibly have reviewed my posts in the time between protection request and decision is beyond me. I am also quite shocked that an admin should alter the talk page to a version which she prefers.
The article and intro as it now stands seems BY animal rights people FOR animal rights people. It seeks the moral high ground and criticises animal welfarists with the phrase "not merely". It is confused and wrong in portraying AR as wanting to reduce suffering while implying only AR wants this. The povish "merely" is repeated again in the last sentence of the lead. The sentence beginning "Some countries have passed legislation awarding recognition to the interests of animals. " is vague. The lead does not need to mention indvidual countries. These can be mentioned, as in my version, in the body. Likewise with the mention of individuals in the lead.
The article is confused about defining AR as a movement or as a concept. A read of this discussion page shows only one organisation wanting "community of equals" if this is the defn of AR. This is a major contribution, not m Mccready 07:27, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Happy to discuss further once you've responded to my earlier points. Discussion on bacteria is pointless. You just don't seem to get it - it was an ERROR. Mccready 08:23, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
For starters this is what's wrong with the article:
18. animal rights seems more common than animal-rights
Mccready 06:59, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
So we agree on
We disagree on
I’m happy to compromise on the rest. Meantime the page should be unprotected while the remainder is sorted out.
AND, you have edited my edit on the talk page. This makes it impossible for a later reader to see who said what. It’s not good behaviour. Mccready 09:39, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
yes I will not revert if you agree to abide by WP policies. The edit of my edit was on this page. Mccready 08:52, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
The policies you weren't abiding by include WP:LEAD, and your insistence on putting bunches of quotes in that belonged in wikiquotes. Your refusal to discuss your bulk reverts properly until after my 4th request and my taking it to another page where another admin criticised your high-handed attitude gives me little confidence in your bevahiour. Will you or will you not promise to abide by WP policies? Mccready 08:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Wow. Despite all the contraversy surrounding this article, I am pleasantly surprised with how it stands now. It is almost completely encyclopedic. I would only make these criticisms: 1) Oswald as a hypocrite: it doesn't matter whether Oswald fought in the revolution 2) the phrase "non-human animals": "animals" will do just fine 3) the quotes about about saving dogs or babies from drowning in the section "animal rights as anti-human" need to have some sort of introductory statement or they need to be moved to "quotes". As it stands now, the article implies, "These statements are examples of being anti-human." Articles shouldn't imply anything. 4) the Nazi thing: While it might be encyclopedic (you are merely stating the opinion of someone), the point of view is extremely radical and a non-sequiter. One would think that the Nazi's supposed compassion toward animals lead to Hitler's dictatorship, the Holocaust, and WWII. Up until this point in the article, you had been quoting credible sources who used the language of philosophy to argue their point. This is just insane. -- Cjackb 19:07, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
"The vast majority of animal-rights advocates adopt vegetarian or vegan diets; they may also avoid clothes made of animal skins, such as leather shoes, and will not use products such as cosmetics, pharmaceutical products, or certain inks or dyes known to contain so-called animal byproducts."
We need to remove the "so-called" since this is a word to be avoided. -- BHC 19:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin made the following comment above for which she should apologise. "Mccready, you're trolling now." This comment was the most offensive in a stream of offence which also included her statement. "I understand how to write intros. You actually don't, although I realize you think you're the expert." The page should not remain protected at the whim of an admin who behaves like this. For the record, I will continue to abide by WP policy. If lifting of page protection does not proceed expeditiously I will seek other forums to have the dispute examined. Mccready 03:54, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I'd be grateful to SV if she would do me the courtesy of reading and commenting substantively my post on this page of 09:39, 10 April 2006 (UTC). She has also changed the header of this section. The header was “SlimVirgin should apologise". I don't agree that this is an attack; indeed the phrase she uses appears to be one of her favorites, little used elsewher. An admin should know the standards of civility on WP. I have yet to receive an apology for this instance or for the accusation earlier when she alleged another editor’s comments were mine. This is not good behaviour for an admin. Mccready 06:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
A reply is not necessarily a substantive reply. Your reply was "Mccready, please stop lecturing me. I haven't edited your talk-page edit, at least not intentionally, and if I did so unintentionally, I apologize. I'll request unprotection if you undertake not to start reverting again. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:30, 10 April 2006 (UTC)" Once again, may I humbly request your subtantive reply?
Mccready 06:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
It is indeed absurd and an example of the dangers of your editing style of interspersing your comments into someone elses. It makes it very hard to follow who said what when. Having checked again, I have no further problems and am happy for unprotection to proceed. Mccready 07:30, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
The Nazi thing was added again, and I've removed it because of the source:
According to a book review, the author Kathleen Marquardt is a "Montana ranch mom," not what we'd call a reliable source. The book itself is a described as a "manifesto," and is out of print. If anyone wants to return this material, please source it to someone reputable, and more than one, because it says according to "critics," not according to "one Montana ranch mom." Also note that the Nazis did not extend rights to animals. They introduced the same vivisection-control legislation that the British had at the time. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:58, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
i just started reading this article and it totally doesn't flow or sound good at all. you can see the different disputes showing in almost every paragraph and i was thinking that maybe a way of solving this was to create two seperate categories: one for animal rights and one for animal liberation. i totally think they are two different concepts that overlap, but are still quite different and have obvious limits within their definitions. for example, while all animal liberation activists can be considered animal rights activists, not all animal rights activists can be considered animal liberation activists.
What about people who don't support the concept of moral rights (either for humans or for non-humans), but struggle to get animals legal rights, which they believe are the only rights one can have? I am thinking of utilitarians, for instance. Are they not part of the animal rights movement? I think they are. They in large part founded it. They support rights in one important sense. The introduction to this article excludes them.
And what about people who believe that animal rights, or liberation, or whatever, go further than just liberating animals from human abuse? What about predation? Even if for obvious reasons human abuse is a priority today, if we give equal consideration to the interests of non-human animals, then the suffering of a mouse counts just as much when it is a cat who is torturing him as when it is a human. I don't think it is fair to exclude these persons from the definition of animal rights.
Furthermore, it is false to say that animal rights wants to regard all animals as persons. Tom Regan, for instance, distinguishes between animals who are "subjects of a life" and those who, though sentient, are not (fish, perhaps, are an example). He wouldn't regard the latter as persons, and doesn't extend rights to them, though he does give weight to their welfare. So the introduction is flawed on this count too.
Tu sum up: the introduction as it is is too limited in scope.
I don't think that there can be any clear-cut definition of animal rights in general that can capture the diversity of the movement. The same can be said for many social movements. It is wrong to try to impose a definition on it. The introduction should try to be simply descriptive of what the movement is.
David Olivier 10:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi SlimVirgin. I'll rephrase the part about the intro excluding utilitarians and others when I get back in a few days. It's true I wasn't very clear.
Concerning predation: it was an ongoing debate ten or twenty years ago inside the movement. The movement has become a lot less philosophical, unfortunately. The debate about predation certainly still exists in the French movement, at least. One well known article advocating a critical stance towards predation is Steve Sapontzis, "Saving the Rabbit from the Fox?", which was an article in the journal Between the Species, and then became a chapter of his book Morals, Reason, and Animals. See here for references of that book. I haven't found the English text of the article on the Web, but the French translation is here.
David Olivier 02:43, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
The version I propose is:
Animal rights, or animal liberation, is a social movement to achieve rights for animals so they are not regarded legally or morally as property, or treated as resources for human purposes. The movement says animals should be regarded as persons and included in the moral community, [1] by giving their basic interests — for example, the interest in avoiding suffering — the same consideration as humans.
My reasons are:
In summary I think my version is more concise, though I would prefer not to use "moral community" because that term is used by its proponents in a normative fashion. At least the reader should be told what is meant by "moral community".
Mccready 02:31, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
SlimVirgin reverted by edits without discussion. Please discuss. Mccready 07:48, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
The allegation is absurd. The fact that SV edited the page before I did gives her no right to be so high handed, as another admin has pointed out. Please address the substance of my arguments. Mccready 12:36, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Once again you fail to address the substance. Perhaps you should list all the pages you regularly edit and which I don't. Once again, you have no prior rights. You do not own wikipedia. You have no right to behave the way you do and ignore our culture of discussion. Please assume good faith - I am here to improve articles. I have reverted and ask you to address the issues.
In summary I think my version is more concise, though I would prefer not to use "moral community" because that term is used by its proponents in a normative fashion. At least the reader should be told what is meant by "moral community". Mccready 17:39, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
SV. This is untrue. These points were not covered while the page was protected. Pls do me me the courtesy of addressing the six points. Your accusations of trolling do yourself a disservice.
Mccready 18:58, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Having just read some of this article, I have to say I found the intro a little misleading. In particular, the lines
"but also to include species other than human beings within the moral community, [1] by giving their basic interests — for example, the interest in avoiding suffering — the same consideration as our own. The claim is that animals should no longer be regarded legally or morally as property, or treated merely as resources for human purposes, but should instead be regarded as persons."
made me think that the article was saying the Animal Rights movement was advocating equal status between humans and animals (which I know no to be the case). Later on the article clarified my concerns, and re-reading the introduction after reading the rest of the article it makes more sense (apart from the person bit]]. My concern is that if the first thing people see when they read the article is something they believe untrue, it will put them off the whole article.
Given the controversy, and efforts already made to solve it, I don't want to simply edit the intro. May I suggest it be looked at again? I'd be happy to contribute some suggestions as to how it could be re-worded, but not if everyone is too fed up to consider new versions of the intro. Captainj 13:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)