![]() | The contents of the Ancestry of the kings of Wessex page were merged into Anglo-Saxon royal genealogies on 25 November 2012. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
please remove the links that redirect the user back to this page. it is quite annoying.
I have merged much text from Ancestry of the kings of Wessex into this page. Please see Talk:Ancestry of the kings of Wessex#Different merger for my rationale. Agricolae ( talk) 02:53, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
The original text of the genealogies has been removed as misleading. Why is this? Paul Bedson ❉ talk❉ 22:19, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
I've removed the NPOV tag. The discussion above does not name any specific instance of an NPOV violation in this article. To put the tag back, a specific example of a problematic passage should be provided. --Akhilleus ( talk) 14:14, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
This reading of 5 can be clearly demonstrated as an error to be attributed to the offline content through comparison of the actual data as provided by the full names can be found in the authentic versions in Vespasian B VI, Tiberius A. VI and B. I, Parker version, Corpus Christi College, Cambridge 183 and Anglo-Saxon chronicle.Source Chambers, R. W., Beowulf, p. 200, Cambridge University Press, 1959
Vespasian B VI (Mercia), Tiberius A. VI and B. I, Parker version | Corpus Christi College, Cambridge 183 | Chronicle |
Godulf Geoting | Godwulf Geating | Godulf Geating |
Finn Goduulfing | Finn Godulfing | |
Friodolf Finning | Freobowulf Godwulfing | Fribulf Finning |
Frealaf Friodulfing | Frealaf Friobowulsing (sic) | Freobelaf Freobulfing |
Woden Frealafing | Woden Frealafing | Woden Freobalafing |
Richard North also exposes that the original text with brackets, he reads Geot(ing) at position number 5, as Godulf(ing)'s father in his list on page 134 of this book Richard North (11 December 1997). Heathen Gods in Old English Literature. Cambridge University Press. pp. 134–. ISBN 978-0-521-55183-0. Retrieved 1 December 2012.
North says "When the West Saxons transcribed Geot as WS Geat, this figure took up a standard position in their royal genealogy". He is arguing here that the Anglo-Saxons adapted the Geot mentioned in Vespasian Lindsey into Geat as part of "politically motivated attempts to connect the Anglo-Saxon kings with the Goths and Lombards." He even notes that the Historia Brittonum presents Geta as "the son of god (fuit, ut aiunt, filius dei), although it is also made clear that Geta was not thereby God of gods, 'but one of their idols which they themselves used to worship' (sed unis est ab idolis eorum, quod ipsi colebant). Asser states Geata whom the pagans quite recently worshipped as a god", making this alternate name also worthy of mention as the historical source name.
Now I know I've lost some other sources along with recent deletion discussions, but here's a new one on the topic, highlighting the invention of Geat as part of biased propoganda on the part of the Anglo-Saxon kings trying to imitate the gothic roots being claimed by the Carolingian dynasty.
Malcolm Godden; Michael Lapidge (31 May 1991). The Cambridge Companion to Old English Literature. Cambridge University Press. pp. 95–. ISBN 978-0-521-37794-2. Retrieved 1 December 2012.
This scholarly, recent, comprehensive, Cambridge University source also notes the five ancestors added to the genealogies around 892 in the ASC; Scyld, Scef, Beaw, Heremond and Hwala. He gives the suggestion of Scyld being related to Danish Scydlings, which is equally as valid a statement to be covered as the selective concentration on Geat, and this one particular spelling of his name.
As responsible historical encyclopedia editors, we should be analysing sources with exceptional scrutiny to pick up on POV and factually wayward arguments and I suggest work is done on this page to accommodate a comprehensive view of the data. A good encyclopedia should give full coverage, accurate reflection of historical sources as per WP:COMMONNAME (with alternates if notable), and awareness of bias and notable arguments about it. As far as I can see, we are currently simply reflecting and promulgating the heavily Christian-biased POV and specific fantasy of some dark-age King. Until this is resolved, I would re-request the NPOV and disputed tags replaced on this article for the reasons mentioned. Paul Bedson ❉ talk❉ 16:00, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
I would like to argue for the inclusion in this article of the following piece of text about Robert Gordon Latham's discussion about the philology of the patronymic usage of the -ing ending of the original names of these ancestors. It was involved in the recent Godulf Geoting deleted article, but did not form part of it when it was deleted and was not discussed. This information is of highly notable importance for everyone living in Britain in a city or town with a name that has "ing" as a composite part, from Birmingham to Nottingham, Huntingdon to Uffington and onwards even to Buckingham Palace. It also adds another source accurately recording Godwulf as the last fully named ancestor in these lines according to original sources:
Robert Gordon Latham, in a study of philology notes that the use of the "-ing" ending of the Anglo-Saxon patronymic is similar to the Ancient Greek "ίδης". Speaking of the use of this type of surname, he says "In the Bible-translation the son of Elisha is called Elising. In the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle occur such genealogies as the following: —
Ida wæs Sopping, Eoppa Esing, Esa Inging, Inga Angenviting, Angenvit Alocing, Aloe Beonocing, Beonoc Branding, Brand Baldaging, Baldag Vodening, Voden Friowulfing, Friowulf Finning, Finn Godwulfing, Godwulf Geating = Ida was the son of Eoppa, Eoppa of Esa, Esa of Inga, Inga of Angenvit, Angenvit of Aloe, Aloe of Beonoc, Beonoc of Brand, Brand of Bseldseg, Baeldaeg of Woden, Woden of Fridowulf, Fridowulf of Finn, Finn of Godwulf, Godwulf of Geat." [1]
References
I suggest the replacement of this text with legendary progenitor because founder is innaccurate terminology. Founder is more applicable to an organization or structure. It is also more singular in form than alternatives. In ancestry, the suggestion of having lots of founders of a dynasty is not expressed well here. In English, we have a wider vocabulary with better words such as ancestor or progenitor of a royal family. There can however be many legendary progenitors, which has plurality implied and is a viable alternate word for Ancestor, as is founder in most modern Thesauruses that you could look into.
As for terminology used in sources, we shouldn't be violating copyright and copying every word per se where better alternatives are available. D.G. Scragg uses this word to note Scef as a progenitor of Aethelwulf in Aethelweard's Chronicon, if you want to check. Scef is referenced in the article.
D. G. Scragg (2003). Textual and Material Culture in Anglo-Saxon England: Thomas Northcote Toller and the Toller Memorial Lectures. DS Brewer. pp. 55–. ISBN 978-0-85991-773-5. Retrieved 2 December 2012.
Using good vocabulary gives Wikipedia greater breadth and depth, and extends links to other pages otherwise orphaned, all core values not to be disregarded. Paul Bedson ❉ talk❉ 00:56, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Paul, people may have little patience with you and call 'personal attack' where none was intended, but there is a reason for this. The reason is that you test people's nerves by being completely unreasonable and wasting everybody's time for no other reason than your own lack of knowledge and/or common sense.
If the author of such a comment is any older than 14 years of age, it is completely unacceptable and childish behavior. It they are 14 or younger, they should invest their time in trying to learn the basics from the people with tertiary education instead of annoying them. Enough said. -- dab (𒁳) 11:33, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
Can people please try and resist the temptation to heap up material related to Woden? I know it is cool that the genealogies construct descent from Woden, and even an ancestry for Woden, but this is kind of a red herring. We have a full Woden article, and there you can go into as much detail as you like, but try to stick to a summary here.
Yes, this may continue an actual pagan tradition of deriving their leading families or kings from gods, you may mention this, but you should explore the topic at Germanic king (this may involve discussion of even the etymology of the word king itself). Conversely, the flipside of this is the swift "demotion" of Woden to a human ancestor after Christianization. There is a deep topic of the nature of "gods" in paganism here, but this is not the page to go into it. This page is supposed to be about the genealogies, to which the legendary bits are more or less just a preface. -- dab (𒁳) 11:27, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
This was fact tagged last year and removed today. It's obviously the case and is discussed in the article. I reinserted it. Another source is The Wiley Blackwell Encyclopedia of Anglo-Saxon England
By Michael Lapidge, John Blair, Simon Keynes, Donald Scrag [1]. Dougweller ( talk) 20:07, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
A thesis/dissertation from 1939 isn't exactly going to trump a 1953 journal article. But the 1953 article isn't a really strong source either. This isn't my field - what's the current scholarship looking like? Either way - the proper way to approach this is ... someone was bold, they were reverted, now we discuss with sources. And hopefully we can find recent scholarship on the disputed text. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:41, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
![]() | The contents of the Ancestry of the kings of Wessex page were merged into Anglo-Saxon royal genealogies on 25 November 2012. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
please remove the links that redirect the user back to this page. it is quite annoying.
I have merged much text from Ancestry of the kings of Wessex into this page. Please see Talk:Ancestry of the kings of Wessex#Different merger for my rationale. Agricolae ( talk) 02:53, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
The original text of the genealogies has been removed as misleading. Why is this? Paul Bedson ❉ talk❉ 22:19, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
I've removed the NPOV tag. The discussion above does not name any specific instance of an NPOV violation in this article. To put the tag back, a specific example of a problematic passage should be provided. --Akhilleus ( talk) 14:14, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
This reading of 5 can be clearly demonstrated as an error to be attributed to the offline content through comparison of the actual data as provided by the full names can be found in the authentic versions in Vespasian B VI, Tiberius A. VI and B. I, Parker version, Corpus Christi College, Cambridge 183 and Anglo-Saxon chronicle.Source Chambers, R. W., Beowulf, p. 200, Cambridge University Press, 1959
Vespasian B VI (Mercia), Tiberius A. VI and B. I, Parker version | Corpus Christi College, Cambridge 183 | Chronicle |
Godulf Geoting | Godwulf Geating | Godulf Geating |
Finn Goduulfing | Finn Godulfing | |
Friodolf Finning | Freobowulf Godwulfing | Fribulf Finning |
Frealaf Friodulfing | Frealaf Friobowulsing (sic) | Freobelaf Freobulfing |
Woden Frealafing | Woden Frealafing | Woden Freobalafing |
Richard North also exposes that the original text with brackets, he reads Geot(ing) at position number 5, as Godulf(ing)'s father in his list on page 134 of this book Richard North (11 December 1997). Heathen Gods in Old English Literature. Cambridge University Press. pp. 134–. ISBN 978-0-521-55183-0. Retrieved 1 December 2012.
North says "When the West Saxons transcribed Geot as WS Geat, this figure took up a standard position in their royal genealogy". He is arguing here that the Anglo-Saxons adapted the Geot mentioned in Vespasian Lindsey into Geat as part of "politically motivated attempts to connect the Anglo-Saxon kings with the Goths and Lombards." He even notes that the Historia Brittonum presents Geta as "the son of god (fuit, ut aiunt, filius dei), although it is also made clear that Geta was not thereby God of gods, 'but one of their idols which they themselves used to worship' (sed unis est ab idolis eorum, quod ipsi colebant). Asser states Geata whom the pagans quite recently worshipped as a god", making this alternate name also worthy of mention as the historical source name.
Now I know I've lost some other sources along with recent deletion discussions, but here's a new one on the topic, highlighting the invention of Geat as part of biased propoganda on the part of the Anglo-Saxon kings trying to imitate the gothic roots being claimed by the Carolingian dynasty.
Malcolm Godden; Michael Lapidge (31 May 1991). The Cambridge Companion to Old English Literature. Cambridge University Press. pp. 95–. ISBN 978-0-521-37794-2. Retrieved 1 December 2012.
This scholarly, recent, comprehensive, Cambridge University source also notes the five ancestors added to the genealogies around 892 in the ASC; Scyld, Scef, Beaw, Heremond and Hwala. He gives the suggestion of Scyld being related to Danish Scydlings, which is equally as valid a statement to be covered as the selective concentration on Geat, and this one particular spelling of his name.
As responsible historical encyclopedia editors, we should be analysing sources with exceptional scrutiny to pick up on POV and factually wayward arguments and I suggest work is done on this page to accommodate a comprehensive view of the data. A good encyclopedia should give full coverage, accurate reflection of historical sources as per WP:COMMONNAME (with alternates if notable), and awareness of bias and notable arguments about it. As far as I can see, we are currently simply reflecting and promulgating the heavily Christian-biased POV and specific fantasy of some dark-age King. Until this is resolved, I would re-request the NPOV and disputed tags replaced on this article for the reasons mentioned. Paul Bedson ❉ talk❉ 16:00, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
I would like to argue for the inclusion in this article of the following piece of text about Robert Gordon Latham's discussion about the philology of the patronymic usage of the -ing ending of the original names of these ancestors. It was involved in the recent Godulf Geoting deleted article, but did not form part of it when it was deleted and was not discussed. This information is of highly notable importance for everyone living in Britain in a city or town with a name that has "ing" as a composite part, from Birmingham to Nottingham, Huntingdon to Uffington and onwards even to Buckingham Palace. It also adds another source accurately recording Godwulf as the last fully named ancestor in these lines according to original sources:
Robert Gordon Latham, in a study of philology notes that the use of the "-ing" ending of the Anglo-Saxon patronymic is similar to the Ancient Greek "ίδης". Speaking of the use of this type of surname, he says "In the Bible-translation the son of Elisha is called Elising. In the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle occur such genealogies as the following: —
Ida wæs Sopping, Eoppa Esing, Esa Inging, Inga Angenviting, Angenvit Alocing, Aloe Beonocing, Beonoc Branding, Brand Baldaging, Baldag Vodening, Voden Friowulfing, Friowulf Finning, Finn Godwulfing, Godwulf Geating = Ida was the son of Eoppa, Eoppa of Esa, Esa of Inga, Inga of Angenvit, Angenvit of Aloe, Aloe of Beonoc, Beonoc of Brand, Brand of Bseldseg, Baeldaeg of Woden, Woden of Fridowulf, Fridowulf of Finn, Finn of Godwulf, Godwulf of Geat." [1]
References
I suggest the replacement of this text with legendary progenitor because founder is innaccurate terminology. Founder is more applicable to an organization or structure. It is also more singular in form than alternatives. In ancestry, the suggestion of having lots of founders of a dynasty is not expressed well here. In English, we have a wider vocabulary with better words such as ancestor or progenitor of a royal family. There can however be many legendary progenitors, which has plurality implied and is a viable alternate word for Ancestor, as is founder in most modern Thesauruses that you could look into.
As for terminology used in sources, we shouldn't be violating copyright and copying every word per se where better alternatives are available. D.G. Scragg uses this word to note Scef as a progenitor of Aethelwulf in Aethelweard's Chronicon, if you want to check. Scef is referenced in the article.
D. G. Scragg (2003). Textual and Material Culture in Anglo-Saxon England: Thomas Northcote Toller and the Toller Memorial Lectures. DS Brewer. pp. 55–. ISBN 978-0-85991-773-5. Retrieved 2 December 2012.
Using good vocabulary gives Wikipedia greater breadth and depth, and extends links to other pages otherwise orphaned, all core values not to be disregarded. Paul Bedson ❉ talk❉ 00:56, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Paul, people may have little patience with you and call 'personal attack' where none was intended, but there is a reason for this. The reason is that you test people's nerves by being completely unreasonable and wasting everybody's time for no other reason than your own lack of knowledge and/or common sense.
If the author of such a comment is any older than 14 years of age, it is completely unacceptable and childish behavior. It they are 14 or younger, they should invest their time in trying to learn the basics from the people with tertiary education instead of annoying them. Enough said. -- dab (𒁳) 11:33, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
Can people please try and resist the temptation to heap up material related to Woden? I know it is cool that the genealogies construct descent from Woden, and even an ancestry for Woden, but this is kind of a red herring. We have a full Woden article, and there you can go into as much detail as you like, but try to stick to a summary here.
Yes, this may continue an actual pagan tradition of deriving their leading families or kings from gods, you may mention this, but you should explore the topic at Germanic king (this may involve discussion of even the etymology of the word king itself). Conversely, the flipside of this is the swift "demotion" of Woden to a human ancestor after Christianization. There is a deep topic of the nature of "gods" in paganism here, but this is not the page to go into it. This page is supposed to be about the genealogies, to which the legendary bits are more or less just a preface. -- dab (𒁳) 11:27, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
This was fact tagged last year and removed today. It's obviously the case and is discussed in the article. I reinserted it. Another source is The Wiley Blackwell Encyclopedia of Anglo-Saxon England
By Michael Lapidge, John Blair, Simon Keynes, Donald Scrag [1]. Dougweller ( talk) 20:07, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
A thesis/dissertation from 1939 isn't exactly going to trump a 1953 journal article. But the 1953 article isn't a really strong source either. This isn't my field - what's the current scholarship looking like? Either way - the proper way to approach this is ... someone was bold, they were reverted, now we discuss with sources. And hopefully we can find recent scholarship on the disputed text. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:41, 11 May 2017 (UTC)