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It might be helpful if someone could come up with an image less politically charged than the signing of UDI to illustrate this article - this is an encyclopaedic article, not an apologia for white minority rule. Humansdorpie 11:53, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
This article seems very muddled. RACE (such as say white people from Europe or genetically from Europe) is muddled with ETHNICITY (say people who have followed the cultural traditions of a community). So someone born in Ireland, but adopted by a Zulu family and raised speaking only zulu would be ethnically Zulu, but racially not. THUS here "Anglo" should be clearly distinguished. So Anglo-Africans could be black or white or Xhosa in RACE but ethnically ANGLO-AFRICANS if they have grown up in a family or live in a family that is predominantly anglo in culture and language. Probably many Europeans have been angalcized over the last century (so Dutch, German, Finnish people for example) an are living this way. However many of purely african racial decent may also have been anglacized in culture, language etc.
Next the article seems to be focused on just south africa and a perspective from there. Perhaps this could be made clear and also if Rhodes talked frm the Coast to the Cape - then what about the Anglo-Africans say in Egypt (a British colony) etc. Kenya - where there has been considerable cultural (politics, science) involvement by for example the Leakey's.
Thus with this logic then Jews and Hugenots who passed through the Anglo cultural sphere can be Anglo-Africans. As probably many did. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.231.182.113 ( talk) 08:18, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
"they can be of any ancestry including French Huguenot, Jewish, Portuguese, Spanish, German and Italian." Really? Surely they should be considered as separate "anglo" specifically refers to England (though is inclusive of the whole of Britain in a modern sense).
They are saying that Anglo-Africans include people of these heritages, I am an English speaking South African but have Dutch, French Huguenot, Italian, German, English, Scottish and Irish ancestry. In other words it is the same case as with Afrikaners being descendant form multiple groups, This is a result of the diverse immigration to SA --
Scottykira (
talk)
06:05, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
The definition of Anglo-African needs some work. I believe it should be "people in Africa, descendent all or in part from British (incl Irish) settlers, who speak South African English (or similar) as their home language." This descripion should include people of mixed race, and assimilated groups from elsewhere in Europe, who speak English as a home language. For example there are many so called coloured people who speak English and are praticing Anglicans, for example.
I also believe that although most Anglo-Africans are probably main stream Protestants - Anglican, Methodist, Congregational, Presbyterian etc, many are also Catholic, Evangelical, Charismatic and, of course, agnostic or atheist.
I question I would like to put up for debate is whether Jewish South Africans should be considered Anglo-Africans. Most South African Jews are descended from Lithuanian immigrants. In many respects I would argue that they form a different ethnic group, despite having adopted South African English. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.212.85.82 ( talk) 11:05, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
This article is extremely offensive and should be removed. I have lived in South Africa all my life and I have never heard of most of this nonsense.
i think you should add afrikners to the realted ethnic groups as alot of settlers married afrikners but kept their english culture.
In the introduction it should say at the end of the first sentence: "English as their first language", and I agree many people of Dutch descent are today so-called Anglo Africans.For some reason the first section can't be edited.
I have never heard this term Anglo-African before and find it quite obnoxious as an English speaking South African with its connotation of Anglo Indians who didn't have a great record, or for English S.Africans and their other British colony cohorts who overall have a group of people who have quite a colonial and racist history. It sticks in the throat that we should as a group claim "African" in our ethnic identity!
Terminoloy I am a little concerned about how much SA history the writer has read beyond school level (or even how much he really took in at school!) when he writes that the English speakers never established a strong cultural or political entity in SA. This is so completely wrong about the history of SA, and is just a common myth we current English speakers have about the Afrikaners having had the only power.
I am also concerned about the mixup that goes on between SA issues and Zimbabwe and Kenyan history - it is not clear whether the article is about this broader group of Anglo-Africans that the writer needs to claim or about English speaking issues in SA.
As you have gathered the article has got up my nose - sorry about getting up yours probably in response - the culture section is incredibly weak - the history section ditto. There seems to be a Rhodesian cause somewhere in there that hasn't been resolved by the writer - I believe claiming to be African means getting over the white bit. Comfortable with being white, but comfortable being with other Africans. I just don't think it is of encyclopedia quality, sorry and I will leave you alone now. Cheers
Since this article is about Anglo-Africans, surely the history section should only start with British involvement/annexation of the Cape Colony? Anything prior to that is just South African History, not Anglo African History. Also, I'm not convinced by the term British South African - I've never heard it. It's usually just English or English-speaking South African, no? Joziboy 12 April 2006, 21:25 (UTC)
I think it is great with the new pics and text, put the article should be clean up, it is a little confusing and messy . Dr.Poison 18:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Cool, I've done some tidying and removing - let me know what you think. Joziboy 15 April 2006, 23:22 (UTC)
Much better, in my opinion. � Dr.Poison 16:14, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 10 April 2006. The result of the discussion was equal consensus; keep. |
What parties want to form an independent state like Quebec? I've never heard of parties wanting to do that Joziboy 15 May 2006, 11:10 (UTC)
Mmm, yeah. Some very odd stories creep into this page from time to time. The page seems to blur the distinction between Anglo Africans and Anglo-South Africans. It mentions how they live in various countries but then talks almost exclusively about South Africans. Maybe it should specifically be reduced to an article about English-speaking South Africans, since they account for almost all "Anglo Africans" anyway, and are - and this is me stating opinion here - more of a coherent bloc than the scattered white English-speakers in the rest of the continent who tend to regard themselves as British expats. As an English-speaking South African, I certainly feel no particular attachment to the UK, despite what this article often seems to claim (I remember reading omething about respecting the Crown and Commonwealth?!) Joziboy 15 May 2006, 19:20 (UTC)
Haha, yeah it definitely is a little long.. and no one would ever find it in searches! :) I can't really think of what it could be called... South African English? That way it would correspond to the language too... like Zulu (the ethnic group) and Zulu (language) on wikipedia. Joziboy 16 May 2006, 12:26 (UTC)
The following exchange has been copied from User talk:Bhunduboy:
Stupid idea! btw... there is an Afrikaner page and a White African page already! (—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Takkies ( talk • contribs).)
Humansdorpie 12:45, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't necessarily need to replace this article. It could just be a separate article which focuses on the South African English. Especially since the table at the bottom is of ethnic groups of South Africa. Although most of the history which is specific to South African English-speakers would need to be taken over to the new page I suppose. Joziboy 17 May 2006, 18:26 (UTC)
Luke, it would be really helpful if you could discuss on this page some of the edits that you are making. I have removed some of them today for a variety of reasons:
Humansdorpie 13:37, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm tempted to revert the picture change too. Considering it's from a one-man movement, and thus not overly representative of Anglo-Africans :) Let me know what the verdict is on moving the page to South African English (ethnic group) (or something like that) Joziboy 16 May 2006, 17:32 (UTC)
During the Apartheid years in South Africa, many Anglo-Africans considered themselves to be more moderate than their Afrikaner compatriots, and generally supported the United Party rather than the National Party which established Apartheid in 1948.
Is the the number of Anglo-Africans that high? 4 million? In South African, there is about 2million and in Zimbabwe maybe 70 000? But are there over 2 million outside Africa? If somebosy would have a source for that number? ��� Dr.Poison 14:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
In asking this question, are you referring to Anglo-Africans only as those of English descent? If so, your number for Zim is inaccurate because it reflects the number of white Africans there and not necessarily those of Anglo descent. If speaking of just whites, the number is actually even higher than 4 million since there are almost 5 million in South Africa alone.
2001 census [1] reports that 8,2% of South African people spoke mostly English at home. At that time the whole population was 44,819,778, so we have at least some 3,650,000 Anglo-Africans in South Africa.
Incorrect, this number includes pretty much all the Indian South Africans (who number +1,000,000) and some 20% of the coloured population (who number +4,000,000). Bezuidenhout ( talk) 14:24, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
This whole section seems a little odd. It's a one-man movement, has no support among the South African English and is entirely irrelevant to modern South African politics or culture. Who wishes for a volkstaat? Maybe 0.001% of English-speaking South Africans? Joziboy 23:49, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Considering that Anglo-Africans were much more opposed to an end to Apartheid, it doesn't suprise me that many of my countrymen have wised up. That's like saying that support among Afrikaners for a volkstaat is almost non-existent because they all don't go out and vote for volkstaat-supporting parties, doesn't mean there isn't support.
There has not been public debate in SA about the issue and not one party in parliament that supports the idea, in contrast to the volkstaat that is supported by the VF+, Unless their is substantial evidence of the movement it should not be included -- Scottykira ( talk) 06:12, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
"Anglo-African" is also used (e.g. Daniel Brown, "Songs of Slavery", Index on Censorship, Volume 36, Number 1, 2007, p. 138–140.) to refer to people in England of African descent. This article should at least have a hat text indicating where (if anywhere) the appropriate article for that topic would be found. - Jmabel | Talk 21:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
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The analogy to North American Rednecks is incorrect.
Specifically, in modern outside usage, "Redneck" refers to certain segments of the rural poor-to-working class people of any race (usually white, although many Southern US Blacks consider themselves Rednecks) in the US and Canada, usually indicative of ignorance, xenophobia, or lack of class. The term can be used by Rednecks to describe themselves as proud of their rural working-class background without any of the negative stereotypes. In this article, it is argued that "Redneck" refers to "lower class Americans". I am going to amend the sentence if no one objects.
Secondly, in North American usage, "Redneck" was not derived from sunburnt necks, as is argued in this article. Specifically, "Redneck" referred to rural Appalachian mountain-folk, usually miners, laborers, and their families, who wore red cloths around their necks to signify their opposition to Labor Union-led development of transportation lines through their communities. It was actually a large movement that led to several deadly battles in US history. I will also amend this sentence.
It is important to clarify that they are different, but both the analogy and explanation are incorrect here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theboondocksaint ( talk • contribs) 20:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
"An idiosyncracy of Anglo-Africans is that should you ask them where their family is from, they will generally answer "Norfolk" or "Hampshire" or "Aberdeen" as the case may be, rather than "Mombasa" or "the Eastern Cape" where they grew up, even if their families came to Africa a century ago."
I have never in my life heard a South African born 'Anglo-African' describe their family as coming from anywhere in England. I personally have no clue where my family may have originally immigrated from when they came to South Africa. 219.164.140.125 ( talk) 11:48, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I have never heard a white English speaking South African (born and raised in SA for generations so not including recent immigrants from the UK) use the term Anglo-African to describe themself. If one looks at the term itself, them by analogy with Anglo-Indian and other similar terms it would seem to indicate a person of mixed racial/ethnic heritage - British and (black) African. Another issue is that English speaking South Africans (and most likely also English speaking people from other African countries too) are not all white and many have no British ancestors at all. The term simply stinks of the jingoistic imperialism of Rhodes and Kichener - "I say old chap, we're British, not heathen savages!" Roger ( talk) 20:51, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Sorry Roger, I don't agree. Ethnicity is a fraught topic of discussion for sure, but I increasingly hear english speaking people in Africa refer to themselves as Anglo-African. I do, it is how I choose to self identify - in part because it isn't a racially exclusive definition. Nowhere does this article suggest that Anglo-Africans are necessarily racially white or even necessarily of British descent as it includes people of mixed race and people of other European ancestry who have assimilated into the Anglo-African community - which is not restricted to SA. There are people in the notables list that are of mixed race, for example. It is about speaking english as a home language and I suppose being something of an Anglophile, but exact definitions of the term will remain difficult. I also believe it is more about asserting an "African" identity rather than an "Anglo" one, anyway.
If you actually believe that no Anglo-African community actually exists at all, rather than that one exists but should not be referred to as "Anglo-African" then perhaps that is the angle you should take.
I think saying that this article "stinks" says something about your point of view, and I think that after 120 years the views of Kitchener and Rhodes have little remaining influence. To my mind "Anglo-Africans" are undoubtedly no longer British. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xoloxolo ( talk • contribs) 11:17, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Please correct me if I'm wrong but how can there be a 'Jewish' race in South Africa? From what I understand, 90% of Jews in South Africa are of Lithuanian decent, so surely the correct word would be more along the lines of Lithuanian decent? And can Jewish South Africans be classed as 'Anglo-African'? Albeit they are English speaking whites, they practise Judaism, and is that one of the 'symbols' of Anglo-Africanism? Bezuidenhout ( talk) 14:20, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
I have never seen or heard any present day white English-speaking South African use the tern "Anglo-African" to describe themself. All the references to the term itself in the article are relevant to the colonial era when most such white English-speaking people (in SA and elsewhere in colonial Africa) were born in the UK or at most the first or second generation descendents of people actually born in the UK.
As far as I can see the use of this term to describe English-speaking white South Africans in the present is in fact a fabrication of the editor(s) who wrote the relevant part(s) of this article. Most of us (yes I am one) have no personal connection with the UK, our closest British ancestors came to SA almost 100 years ago. I will only be convinced otherwise if a South African publication can be cited referring to a currently alive white English-speaking South African (who is of purely SA descent for at leat 2 generations) as an "Anglo-African". When I first saw this term here on WP I imagined it to refer to a mixed race person of British and African parentage in the same way that the term Anglo-Indian refers to such mixed British and Indian descent. Roger ( talk) 19:12, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
If you actually believe that no Anglo-African community actually exists at all, rather than that one exists but should not be referred to as "Anglo-African" then perhaps that is the angle you should take. I think saying that this article "stinks" says something about your point of view, and I think that after 120 years the views of Kitchener and Rhodes have little remaining influence. To my mind "Anglo-Africans" are undoubtedly no longer British
I searched the web and found what the following articles called "them", I will continue to add to this list in the future Bezuidenhout ( talk) 19:04, 10 January 2011 (UTC).
This article simply shouldn't exist. Yes, "Anglo-INDIAN" is a term with a very specific meaning related to a small cultural community of the offspring of England's relationship with India. England's relationship with Africa, and South Africa, is completely different and "Anglo-AFRICAN" doesn't describe it at all. Wikipedia is not in the business of creating new terms and concepts that aren't in use.
I will repeat what has been said before: no credible sources describe English-speaking South Africans (or any English-speakers anywhere in Africa) as Anglo-Africans. Could somebody who knows how Wikipedia works please get this silly article removed? WellingtonMiette ( talk) 01:31, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't think the inclusion of Hugo Weaving, JRR Tolkien and Richard Dawkins in the infobox is appropriate. When an British couple went out to the colonies, had children in Africa, and then returned to Britain, that did not make their children Anglo-Africans. To be included in that term I would suggest that a person must either (1) be born to a family that had permanently settled in Africa, or (2) themselves be permanently settled in Africa. - htonl ( talk) 12:58, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
On a related note: I think it's a little weird that we have three sportspeople in a row in the infobox. It'd be nice if we could get maybe one politician (I'd love it if we could get a free photo of Guy Scott) and one writer/artist type. - htonl ( talk) 09:29, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move to British diaspora in Africa. The discussion suggests that both the current name and the originally suggested target name are confusing and unclear. -- tariqabjotu 01:57, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
Anglo-African → British in Africa – The contemporary general use of the term Anglo-African to refer to the British diaspora in Africa is disputed (see Talk:Anglo-African), and is not adequately supported by reliable sources. Sources I have listed in Anglo-African#Further reading indicate that the term has primarily been used historically to self-identify by people of mixed indigenous African and European ancestry both in and out of Africa. British in Africa is also consistent with the corresponding section heading in White Africans of European ancestry. The alternative British African is likely to be confused with Black British. Helen ( talk) 08:38, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
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Wikipedia's policy on article titles.I have started tentatively to clean up this and related articles. They are broad topics. There might be some major changes. I won't always get it right. I appreciate feedback. I am posting this to pre-empt any hostility. If there are any major issues with my editing (I am not talking about copy editing or the odd fact), please bring it to the talk page. Helen ( talk) 08:24, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
We're getting additions of people based only on the idea that they have "English sounding" names - no actual evidence is presented of a strong "British expatriate" identity. Being white and English speaking is not enough for inclusion here, otherwise we're simply back to using this as a synonym for "rooinek". Roger (Dodger67) ( talk) 14:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
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Also removed unverified refs to:
It might be helpful if someone could come up with an image less politically charged than the signing of UDI to illustrate this article - this is an encyclopaedic article, not an apologia for white minority rule. Humansdorpie 11:53, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
This article seems very muddled. RACE (such as say white people from Europe or genetically from Europe) is muddled with ETHNICITY (say people who have followed the cultural traditions of a community). So someone born in Ireland, but adopted by a Zulu family and raised speaking only zulu would be ethnically Zulu, but racially not. THUS here "Anglo" should be clearly distinguished. So Anglo-Africans could be black or white or Xhosa in RACE but ethnically ANGLO-AFRICANS if they have grown up in a family or live in a family that is predominantly anglo in culture and language. Probably many Europeans have been angalcized over the last century (so Dutch, German, Finnish people for example) an are living this way. However many of purely african racial decent may also have been anglacized in culture, language etc.
Next the article seems to be focused on just south africa and a perspective from there. Perhaps this could be made clear and also if Rhodes talked frm the Coast to the Cape - then what about the Anglo-Africans say in Egypt (a British colony) etc. Kenya - where there has been considerable cultural (politics, science) involvement by for example the Leakey's.
Thus with this logic then Jews and Hugenots who passed through the Anglo cultural sphere can be Anglo-Africans. As probably many did. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.231.182.113 ( talk) 08:18, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
"they can be of any ancestry including French Huguenot, Jewish, Portuguese, Spanish, German and Italian." Really? Surely they should be considered as separate "anglo" specifically refers to England (though is inclusive of the whole of Britain in a modern sense).
They are saying that Anglo-Africans include people of these heritages, I am an English speaking South African but have Dutch, French Huguenot, Italian, German, English, Scottish and Irish ancestry. In other words it is the same case as with Afrikaners being descendant form multiple groups, This is a result of the diverse immigration to SA --
Scottykira (
talk)
06:05, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
The definition of Anglo-African needs some work. I believe it should be "people in Africa, descendent all or in part from British (incl Irish) settlers, who speak South African English (or similar) as their home language." This descripion should include people of mixed race, and assimilated groups from elsewhere in Europe, who speak English as a home language. For example there are many so called coloured people who speak English and are praticing Anglicans, for example.
I also believe that although most Anglo-Africans are probably main stream Protestants - Anglican, Methodist, Congregational, Presbyterian etc, many are also Catholic, Evangelical, Charismatic and, of course, agnostic or atheist.
I question I would like to put up for debate is whether Jewish South Africans should be considered Anglo-Africans. Most South African Jews are descended from Lithuanian immigrants. In many respects I would argue that they form a different ethnic group, despite having adopted South African English. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.212.85.82 ( talk) 11:05, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
This article is extremely offensive and should be removed. I have lived in South Africa all my life and I have never heard of most of this nonsense.
i think you should add afrikners to the realted ethnic groups as alot of settlers married afrikners but kept their english culture.
In the introduction it should say at the end of the first sentence: "English as their first language", and I agree many people of Dutch descent are today so-called Anglo Africans.For some reason the first section can't be edited.
I have never heard this term Anglo-African before and find it quite obnoxious as an English speaking South African with its connotation of Anglo Indians who didn't have a great record, or for English S.Africans and their other British colony cohorts who overall have a group of people who have quite a colonial and racist history. It sticks in the throat that we should as a group claim "African" in our ethnic identity!
Terminoloy I am a little concerned about how much SA history the writer has read beyond school level (or even how much he really took in at school!) when he writes that the English speakers never established a strong cultural or political entity in SA. This is so completely wrong about the history of SA, and is just a common myth we current English speakers have about the Afrikaners having had the only power.
I am also concerned about the mixup that goes on between SA issues and Zimbabwe and Kenyan history - it is not clear whether the article is about this broader group of Anglo-Africans that the writer needs to claim or about English speaking issues in SA.
As you have gathered the article has got up my nose - sorry about getting up yours probably in response - the culture section is incredibly weak - the history section ditto. There seems to be a Rhodesian cause somewhere in there that hasn't been resolved by the writer - I believe claiming to be African means getting over the white bit. Comfortable with being white, but comfortable being with other Africans. I just don't think it is of encyclopedia quality, sorry and I will leave you alone now. Cheers
Since this article is about Anglo-Africans, surely the history section should only start with British involvement/annexation of the Cape Colony? Anything prior to that is just South African History, not Anglo African History. Also, I'm not convinced by the term British South African - I've never heard it. It's usually just English or English-speaking South African, no? Joziboy 12 April 2006, 21:25 (UTC)
I think it is great with the new pics and text, put the article should be clean up, it is a little confusing and messy . Dr.Poison 18:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Cool, I've done some tidying and removing - let me know what you think. Joziboy 15 April 2006, 23:22 (UTC)
Much better, in my opinion. � Dr.Poison 16:14, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 10 April 2006. The result of the discussion was equal consensus; keep. |
What parties want to form an independent state like Quebec? I've never heard of parties wanting to do that Joziboy 15 May 2006, 11:10 (UTC)
Mmm, yeah. Some very odd stories creep into this page from time to time. The page seems to blur the distinction between Anglo Africans and Anglo-South Africans. It mentions how they live in various countries but then talks almost exclusively about South Africans. Maybe it should specifically be reduced to an article about English-speaking South Africans, since they account for almost all "Anglo Africans" anyway, and are - and this is me stating opinion here - more of a coherent bloc than the scattered white English-speakers in the rest of the continent who tend to regard themselves as British expats. As an English-speaking South African, I certainly feel no particular attachment to the UK, despite what this article often seems to claim (I remember reading omething about respecting the Crown and Commonwealth?!) Joziboy 15 May 2006, 19:20 (UTC)
Haha, yeah it definitely is a little long.. and no one would ever find it in searches! :) I can't really think of what it could be called... South African English? That way it would correspond to the language too... like Zulu (the ethnic group) and Zulu (language) on wikipedia. Joziboy 16 May 2006, 12:26 (UTC)
The following exchange has been copied from User talk:Bhunduboy:
Stupid idea! btw... there is an Afrikaner page and a White African page already! (—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Takkies ( talk • contribs).)
Humansdorpie 12:45, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't necessarily need to replace this article. It could just be a separate article which focuses on the South African English. Especially since the table at the bottom is of ethnic groups of South Africa. Although most of the history which is specific to South African English-speakers would need to be taken over to the new page I suppose. Joziboy 17 May 2006, 18:26 (UTC)
Luke, it would be really helpful if you could discuss on this page some of the edits that you are making. I have removed some of them today for a variety of reasons:
Humansdorpie 13:37, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm tempted to revert the picture change too. Considering it's from a one-man movement, and thus not overly representative of Anglo-Africans :) Let me know what the verdict is on moving the page to South African English (ethnic group) (or something like that) Joziboy 16 May 2006, 17:32 (UTC)
During the Apartheid years in South Africa, many Anglo-Africans considered themselves to be more moderate than their Afrikaner compatriots, and generally supported the United Party rather than the National Party which established Apartheid in 1948.
Is the the number of Anglo-Africans that high? 4 million? In South African, there is about 2million and in Zimbabwe maybe 70 000? But are there over 2 million outside Africa? If somebosy would have a source for that number? ��� Dr.Poison 14:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
In asking this question, are you referring to Anglo-Africans only as those of English descent? If so, your number for Zim is inaccurate because it reflects the number of white Africans there and not necessarily those of Anglo descent. If speaking of just whites, the number is actually even higher than 4 million since there are almost 5 million in South Africa alone.
2001 census [1] reports that 8,2% of South African people spoke mostly English at home. At that time the whole population was 44,819,778, so we have at least some 3,650,000 Anglo-Africans in South Africa.
Incorrect, this number includes pretty much all the Indian South Africans (who number +1,000,000) and some 20% of the coloured population (who number +4,000,000). Bezuidenhout ( talk) 14:24, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
This whole section seems a little odd. It's a one-man movement, has no support among the South African English and is entirely irrelevant to modern South African politics or culture. Who wishes for a volkstaat? Maybe 0.001% of English-speaking South Africans? Joziboy 23:49, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Considering that Anglo-Africans were much more opposed to an end to Apartheid, it doesn't suprise me that many of my countrymen have wised up. That's like saying that support among Afrikaners for a volkstaat is almost non-existent because they all don't go out and vote for volkstaat-supporting parties, doesn't mean there isn't support.
There has not been public debate in SA about the issue and not one party in parliament that supports the idea, in contrast to the volkstaat that is supported by the VF+, Unless their is substantial evidence of the movement it should not be included -- Scottykira ( talk) 06:12, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
"Anglo-African" is also used (e.g. Daniel Brown, "Songs of Slavery", Index on Censorship, Volume 36, Number 1, 2007, p. 138–140.) to refer to people in England of African descent. This article should at least have a hat text indicating where (if anywhere) the appropriate article for that topic would be found. - Jmabel | Talk 21:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Image:Johnny clegg.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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The analogy to North American Rednecks is incorrect.
Specifically, in modern outside usage, "Redneck" refers to certain segments of the rural poor-to-working class people of any race (usually white, although many Southern US Blacks consider themselves Rednecks) in the US and Canada, usually indicative of ignorance, xenophobia, or lack of class. The term can be used by Rednecks to describe themselves as proud of their rural working-class background without any of the negative stereotypes. In this article, it is argued that "Redneck" refers to "lower class Americans". I am going to amend the sentence if no one objects.
Secondly, in North American usage, "Redneck" was not derived from sunburnt necks, as is argued in this article. Specifically, "Redneck" referred to rural Appalachian mountain-folk, usually miners, laborers, and their families, who wore red cloths around their necks to signify their opposition to Labor Union-led development of transportation lines through their communities. It was actually a large movement that led to several deadly battles in US history. I will also amend this sentence.
It is important to clarify that they are different, but both the analogy and explanation are incorrect here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theboondocksaint ( talk • contribs) 20:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
"An idiosyncracy of Anglo-Africans is that should you ask them where their family is from, they will generally answer "Norfolk" or "Hampshire" or "Aberdeen" as the case may be, rather than "Mombasa" or "the Eastern Cape" where they grew up, even if their families came to Africa a century ago."
I have never in my life heard a South African born 'Anglo-African' describe their family as coming from anywhere in England. I personally have no clue where my family may have originally immigrated from when they came to South Africa. 219.164.140.125 ( talk) 11:48, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I have never heard a white English speaking South African (born and raised in SA for generations so not including recent immigrants from the UK) use the term Anglo-African to describe themself. If one looks at the term itself, them by analogy with Anglo-Indian and other similar terms it would seem to indicate a person of mixed racial/ethnic heritage - British and (black) African. Another issue is that English speaking South Africans (and most likely also English speaking people from other African countries too) are not all white and many have no British ancestors at all. The term simply stinks of the jingoistic imperialism of Rhodes and Kichener - "I say old chap, we're British, not heathen savages!" Roger ( talk) 20:51, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Sorry Roger, I don't agree. Ethnicity is a fraught topic of discussion for sure, but I increasingly hear english speaking people in Africa refer to themselves as Anglo-African. I do, it is how I choose to self identify - in part because it isn't a racially exclusive definition. Nowhere does this article suggest that Anglo-Africans are necessarily racially white or even necessarily of British descent as it includes people of mixed race and people of other European ancestry who have assimilated into the Anglo-African community - which is not restricted to SA. There are people in the notables list that are of mixed race, for example. It is about speaking english as a home language and I suppose being something of an Anglophile, but exact definitions of the term will remain difficult. I also believe it is more about asserting an "African" identity rather than an "Anglo" one, anyway.
If you actually believe that no Anglo-African community actually exists at all, rather than that one exists but should not be referred to as "Anglo-African" then perhaps that is the angle you should take.
I think saying that this article "stinks" says something about your point of view, and I think that after 120 years the views of Kitchener and Rhodes have little remaining influence. To my mind "Anglo-Africans" are undoubtedly no longer British. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xoloxolo ( talk • contribs) 11:17, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Please correct me if I'm wrong but how can there be a 'Jewish' race in South Africa? From what I understand, 90% of Jews in South Africa are of Lithuanian decent, so surely the correct word would be more along the lines of Lithuanian decent? And can Jewish South Africans be classed as 'Anglo-African'? Albeit they are English speaking whites, they practise Judaism, and is that one of the 'symbols' of Anglo-Africanism? Bezuidenhout ( talk) 14:20, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
I have never seen or heard any present day white English-speaking South African use the tern "Anglo-African" to describe themself. All the references to the term itself in the article are relevant to the colonial era when most such white English-speaking people (in SA and elsewhere in colonial Africa) were born in the UK or at most the first or second generation descendents of people actually born in the UK.
As far as I can see the use of this term to describe English-speaking white South Africans in the present is in fact a fabrication of the editor(s) who wrote the relevant part(s) of this article. Most of us (yes I am one) have no personal connection with the UK, our closest British ancestors came to SA almost 100 years ago. I will only be convinced otherwise if a South African publication can be cited referring to a currently alive white English-speaking South African (who is of purely SA descent for at leat 2 generations) as an "Anglo-African". When I first saw this term here on WP I imagined it to refer to a mixed race person of British and African parentage in the same way that the term Anglo-Indian refers to such mixed British and Indian descent. Roger ( talk) 19:12, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
If you actually believe that no Anglo-African community actually exists at all, rather than that one exists but should not be referred to as "Anglo-African" then perhaps that is the angle you should take. I think saying that this article "stinks" says something about your point of view, and I think that after 120 years the views of Kitchener and Rhodes have little remaining influence. To my mind "Anglo-Africans" are undoubtedly no longer British
I searched the web and found what the following articles called "them", I will continue to add to this list in the future Bezuidenhout ( talk) 19:04, 10 January 2011 (UTC).
This article simply shouldn't exist. Yes, "Anglo-INDIAN" is a term with a very specific meaning related to a small cultural community of the offspring of England's relationship with India. England's relationship with Africa, and South Africa, is completely different and "Anglo-AFRICAN" doesn't describe it at all. Wikipedia is not in the business of creating new terms and concepts that aren't in use.
I will repeat what has been said before: no credible sources describe English-speaking South Africans (or any English-speakers anywhere in Africa) as Anglo-Africans. Could somebody who knows how Wikipedia works please get this silly article removed? WellingtonMiette ( talk) 01:31, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't think the inclusion of Hugo Weaving, JRR Tolkien and Richard Dawkins in the infobox is appropriate. When an British couple went out to the colonies, had children in Africa, and then returned to Britain, that did not make their children Anglo-Africans. To be included in that term I would suggest that a person must either (1) be born to a family that had permanently settled in Africa, or (2) themselves be permanently settled in Africa. - htonl ( talk) 12:58, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
On a related note: I think it's a little weird that we have three sportspeople in a row in the infobox. It'd be nice if we could get maybe one politician (I'd love it if we could get a free photo of Guy Scott) and one writer/artist type. - htonl ( talk) 09:29, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move to British diaspora in Africa. The discussion suggests that both the current name and the originally suggested target name are confusing and unclear. -- tariqabjotu 01:57, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
Anglo-African → British in Africa – The contemporary general use of the term Anglo-African to refer to the British diaspora in Africa is disputed (see Talk:Anglo-African), and is not adequately supported by reliable sources. Sources I have listed in Anglo-African#Further reading indicate that the term has primarily been used historically to self-identify by people of mixed indigenous African and European ancestry both in and out of Africa. British in Africa is also consistent with the corresponding section heading in White Africans of European ancestry. The alternative British African is likely to be confused with Black British. Helen ( talk) 08:38, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
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Wikipedia's policy on article titles.I have started tentatively to clean up this and related articles. They are broad topics. There might be some major changes. I won't always get it right. I appreciate feedback. I am posting this to pre-empt any hostility. If there are any major issues with my editing (I am not talking about copy editing or the odd fact), please bring it to the talk page. Helen ( talk) 08:24, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
We're getting additions of people based only on the idea that they have "English sounding" names - no actual evidence is presented of a strong "British expatriate" identity. Being white and English speaking is not enough for inclusion here, otherwise we're simply back to using this as a synonym for "rooinek". Roger (Dodger67) ( talk) 14:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
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