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whoever created the redirects from episcopalian and episcopalianism to anglican should be aware that episcopalianism is NOT a form of Anglicanism. There is a complicanted history involved, and I won't get involved in it here. There is a good article,
episcopal, about episcopalianism. I have changed the redirects to that article.
Bobburito 03:32, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Nrgdocadams 22:35, 7 January 2006 (UTC)Nrgdocadams
Eno-Etile 21:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Each of those pages has links to Bishop and vice versa. Each of those separate articles has a good reason to exist and should not be converted into one huge Bishop article which attempts to provide all knowledge of everything concerning bishops. It would completely unreadable. Dabbler 11:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
The Scottish Episcopal Church has its roots in post-Scottish reformation attempts to reintroduce bishops, resulting in two church traditions before James VI acceded to the English throne, and developed separately. You're missing out on a significant part of the development of the world-wide communion if you ignore the piskies. .... dave souza, talk 10:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I think the bottom line for Anglicans in this matter is that we need to avoid using the word 'catholic' in any way which-- 203.214.141.208 05:32, 9 July 2006 (UTC) implies that members of the pope's church are catholics and we are not. My St. Joseph Daily Missal from the 1960's has the expression "Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church" on the title page, so I dont see what all the fuss is about. I was also under the impression that objection to the term 'Roman Catholic' was an Irish quirk, and that Roman Catholics in other parts of the world were quite happy to be Roman Catholics Nennius, 3/9/06
Obviously there's always going to be some overlap, but might it be an idea to have a clearer split between the institution (Church of England) and the 'ideology' (not quite the right word, but you see what I mean) (Anglicanism), or even merge the 2? Neddyseagoon 14:30, 18 May 2006 (UTC)neddyseagoon
The Church of England is not the same as Anglicanism. Yes, it was identical in 1700, but today Anglicanism embraces also the Church of Nigeria, the Episcopal Church (to mention two extremes) and the Church of England has its own distinction within Anglicanism (e.g., to my knowledge, the only Anglican state church, has the Queen of England as head, etc.
It might be well to put everything general to Anglicanism and refer to it in Church of England as well as in the other Anglican churches - but that's sorting out, not merging. -- Irmgard 13:44, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm definitely against merging this with "Church of England" for all the reasons outline in the previous entry. Irmgard is quite right. Cor Unum 07:36, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
>anglicans are second largest sect of Christianity globally with over 77 million member
There are over 150 million orthodox christian people (those who believe the apostolic succession of their priests originates from Apostle John, the youngest disciple).
In turn catholic belive the apostolic succession of their priests originates from Peter and Paul, who died in Rome. They are the most populous religion worldwide.
actually there are around 77 million and over 300 million Protestants and 1 billion catholics. AngryAfghan
Why couldn't the word 'larger' be substituted for 'largest'? Nennius
I think that King Henry VIII should be mensioned in this article as he is in the article about himself. In schools when children learn about ANGLICANISM they learn that the founder of this religion was King Henry VIII.
A vandal made some edits to this page, which I reverted. However, they may be a problem with the See Also section. If somone more familiar with this article could check it out, I would be much obliged. - Dr. Zaret 02:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
A new WikiProject focussing on Anglicanism and the Anglican Communion has just been initiated: WikiProject Anglicanism. Our goal is to improve and expand Anglican-reltaed articles. If anyone (Anglican or non-Anglican) is interested, read over the project page and consider signing up. Cheers! Fishhead64 06:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I've always wondered about this. What is the symbolism and origin of the four spires in a square that marks most (all?) anglican churches? Thanks. El Gringo 18:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I stand corrected, MB. This is the type of church square tower that I am speaking of:
http://www.wicklow.ie/Wicklow%20400/Photo%20Gallery/images/Church%20of%20Ireland,%20Nuns%20Cross%20Ashford.jpg
And this:
http://www.interment.net/data/ireland/dublin/stbrigid/DX-211.jpg
And this:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~rosdavies/photos/KilkeelKilhorneCofIAnnalong.JPG
And this, the most important Anglican church in Ireland:
http://www.planetware.com/i/photo/cathedral-of-the-church-of-ireland-armagh-arptcth.jpg
I have thought that it symbolised the crown's supremacy over the church, but I have no basis for that. All I know is that it is extremely rare- I cannot recall one instance of it- to see such a tower on a Catholic Church in Ireland.
El Gringo
21:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to get into an edit war with someone who seems to be irredeemably hostile to the Anglican churches. However I have decided to put up the disputed section template until some of the statements can be conclusively verified with citations or at least to warn others that I consider them to be totally POV and wrong asthey are written now. Dabbler 01:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
"Catholic and Reformed" is a term used by Anglo-Catholics to affirm Catholicims and avoid the term Protestant. Actually, there are a great many in the Anglican Communion who identify themselves as Protestants. The Church of Scotland "which is not a daughter church" of the Church of England is decidedly Protestant.-- Vaquero100 21:21, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I have no problem with Anglo-Catholic claims to being catholic. I have a problem with all efforts to rob the Catholic Church of the use of her name which appears to be a common Anglican project on WP. I have a problem also with Anglo-Catholicism speaking for all Anglicans who are, in fact, mixed on the issue.
Also, after 2 months of Fishhead's hounding and Catholic-baiting on the RCC page, it is time to take the argument to the source of the bigotry.
My work on WP is consistant and principled and aimed at seeking justice against Anglican Anti-Catholicism.-- Vaquero100 21:26, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Have you told all your Catholic friends that you and your Anglican fellows are systematically irradicating the use of the name of the Catholic Church on WP? I assure you their amusement would cease if you did. You and your fellow have acted utterly without sensitivity to Catholics. This is hurtful and maddening. I have no problem with any member of the Anglican Churches. This all started with the intollerance of Anglicans toward the Catholic Church in the use of her name.
I am sure it is socially acceptible in England and other Anglican dominated circles to refuse to acknowledge the name of the Catholic Church. But you need to know that it is patently uncivil. This discussion WILL NOT END until until the name of the Catholic Church is recognized. -- Vaquero100 21:46, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
PS, Vaquero - Don't edit my talk comments. This is considered vandalism, and is certainly reportable. Fishhead64 21:56, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
ARCIC, as I have said before is a rare instance of a concession by the Catholic Church to appease Anglicans on the comission. It was never intended as a justification to irradicate the name of the Catholic Church in all public fora such as WP. If you look closesly you will see that the Catholic Church calls itself such in all its encyclical letters and conciliar documents. -- Vaquero100 22:54, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but it is Anglicans that have forced the Catholic Church off of the Catholic Church page. That is what is at issue here. Your fellows are engaged in a campaign to irradicate the name of the Catholic Church on WP. Please. Please. Please. Stop the suppression of the Catholic Church's name! Anglican bullying tactics might work in England, but they wont for long on the internet. --
Vaquero100
23:29, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, Gareth, it has been Anglicans who have been telling Catholics what to call ourselves for a few centuries. Now, maybe you know what it is like. There is a systematic campaign by Anglican on WP to prevent the use of the Catholic Church's name. It is time for this to end. It has been spearheaded by Fishhead64 and been going on for almost 4 months on the RCC page. This has got to stop.-- Vaquero100 23:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Ah, true Anglican colors now show. Papist? why not just call us fisheaters? There is only one entity by the name of Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has no problem with other churches incorporating the word Catholic in their names. Glad to share. But all groups and organizations have the right to name themselves. The campaign to irradicate the name of the Catholic Church is a abuse. --
Vaquero100
00:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually, slurs like "Papist" and "Romish," born of bigotry are the very origin of the name "Roman Catholic." This is one reason we Catholics object to the term. Besides, where is this other "catholic church?" -- Vaquero100 00:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Nobody is asking other churches to change their names. They all have fine names. The Catholic Church is what the pope calls his church, so there is no shame issue here. The issue is Catholic baiting, Piskies and all.-- Vaquero100 00:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Philip Jenkins, an Episcopalian historian, in The New Anti-Catholicism: The Last Acceptable Prejudice (Oxford University Press 2005 ISBN 0195154800) maintains that some people who otherwise avoid offending members of racial, ethnic or gender groups drop their guard regarding religion. Earlier in the twentieth century, Harvard professor Arthur M. Schlesinger, Sr. characterized prejudice against the Catholic Church as "the deepest bias in the history of the American people" and Yale professor Peter Viereck once commented that "Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals."
The claim that the churches of the Anglican Communion are "autocephalous" is ridiculous. A Googles search (Anglican autocephalous) produced only one occurance and that was the WP article on the Anglican Church in Canada written by Fishhead. This is just another example of this Protestant church donning the clothes of Catholics and Orthodox in an attempt to gain an elusive legitimacy. This is especially shameless in a time when the Windsor Report and other Anglican documents using the term "independent" and "interdependent" are flooding the internet. Nice try.
Fishhead. I HAVE assumed good faith, but all evidence is to the contrary. -- Vaquero100 21:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I belong to the Anglican Church of Australia, the Primate of which is elected without reference to any ecclesiastical authority outside of Australia. If that doesn't make the Anglican Church of Australia autocephalous what on earth does autocephalous mean? Nennius 3/9/06
First, I really think the back and forth on this is not productive - it's a question of who suffered more, and I think we all know that the Reformation and Counter-Reformation produced enough bloodshed and repression on all sides. Moreover, any comprehensive discussion of the English Reformation (and its discontents!) should properly be at English Reformation, and the abusive and bigoted legislation and its impact can be fully unpacked at Catholic Emancipation.
Second, if one is going to make claims about ARCIC (e.g., that the RCC views the process as "increasingly irrelevant," or that it is placing more emphasis on dialogue with Anglican schismatics), these should be backed up in some way. Part of my ministry is in ecumenical and multifaith dialogue, and I wrote a comprehensive review of the ARCIC document on Mary. That is certainly not my perception of the official position. Fishhead64 04:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
The papal bull of 1570 excommunicated Elizabeth and urged her subjects to depose her (Dickens, The English Reformation, 2nd ed., p. 366). In what way does this not constitute an authorisation of rebellion? It is true that few English Catholics sought the violent overthrown of the crown, although papal supremacy was definitely a factor in the Anglo-Spanish War. Nonetheless, in the end, the bull did authorise rebellion [1].
I can understand a concern for balance - which I thought my edits had achieved - but historical revisionism is unjustifiable. Fishhead64 19:20, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
It needs to be recognised that what Pius V did was issue a fatwa against Elizabeth. Nennius 3/9/06
It is the case, is it not, that the Church is feminine but the country is masculine? Unfortunately, my Latin is very rusty. So, my question is, etymologically, which is more appropriate - Church or State? LOL! Fishhead64 22:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
hehe, I'm not honestly sure about this one. I only intended to conform it with OED, which suggests a root of medieval Latin Anglican-us, from Anglic-us. If consensus wants it changed back, I've no objection. Carl.bunderson 22:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I would like to offer my apologies to the Anglicans on WP and especially those who edit this page. I realize that I have let my frustration boil over into some outrageous verbal vengence on this page in recent weeks. This was clearly out of order. I regret the offenses I have given.
I might add here that I did go to confession today, and am now in much better spirits. Accordingly, I have made the resolve to "amend my life" as the Act of Contrition states and this applies to WP.
Have a good night. -- Vaquero100 02:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
In the "Post-Reformation" section, the article shows:
Surely the (in this specific case) equivocal term "catholic" within such a passage, within such a section, and within such an article will be most generally misinterpreted; especially since the Anglican Church -- at least in those times -- had a far stronger connexion with the views of the Vatican.
I feel that a better, more informative, and different term must be chosen. Lindsay658 07:02, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
"Philosophically" you may think the distinction is HUGE, but as a practical matter and as a matter of plain fact, the distinction is FALSE. Vaquero100 05:37, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
S
Every so often I try to insert a few sentences to explain that article six of the XXXIX articles very subtly alters the Protestant principle that all aspects of Christian faith and practice must be justified by an appeal to the Bible to a recognition that not all aspects can be, and that Christians ought to be able to disagree but continue to worship at the same altar. Yet someone always deletes it. Why? I would have thought that this was one of the English church's most distinctive features. Nennius
Article VI is phrased in a negative way; 'whatsoever is NOT read...','NOT to be required of...'. As I understand it, the position of the continental reformers was that all things MUST be proved by scripture. The Anglican position, as enunciated in Article VI, subtly changes this, in the hope that it might allow people of different beliefs to continue to worship together without wanting to tear each other to pieces, or to set up rival religious establishments, which 16th century European rulers were unwilling to countenance, as likely to lead to civil unrest, treason and foreign invasion. Article VI recognises that outside a few core beliefs that hardly anyone in 16th century Europe was questioning, there are a whole range of Christian beliefs and practices where the Bible does not give definitive answers, and where it is legitimate for Christians to differ. Nennius, 2/9/06
I have re-inserted a sentence on how Article VI differs from the classical Protestant position. If anyone deletes it could they please explain why. Nennius 22/10/06
I moved a load of stuff about ordination and sucession to the ecumenism section: Roman Catholic and Orthodox opinion about Anglican orders is not a part of Anglican doctrine. But there's still too much detail about recognition of orders interrupting the general disuccion of Anglican doctrine. Anglican Christianity is not primarily about the validity of orders. Myopic Bookworm 15:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
No, but the validity or otherwise of Anglican orders does make an interesting discussion topic, even if it has no significance beyond that. Nennius 3/9/06
In today's updates, Lima wrote an interesting new sentence. I am afraid I quickly deleted it for discussion:
Firstly I am not sure how it fits in with 'Doctrine - Catholic and Reformed'.
Secondly, I am not sure it says what you mean it to say. As an example, Westminster Confession presbyterians require that an ordained pastor conduct the (two) sacraments. This follows through to ecumenical presbyterians, who expect that an Anglican priest should be validly ordained. Of course, validity for them has less to do with the historic episcopate, and more to do with church order. But, all the same, they are concerned about 'validity'.
It is an interesting issue that I feel belongs in paragraphs and articles about ordination and protestant ecumenism, rather than a piece about Anglican doctrine.
Rather than debating this, how do you feel about leaving it out altogether? -- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk) 17:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The statement is for all intents and purposes, false. It should be removed. — ExplorerCDT 00:06, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
When I wrote that sentence I had forgotten that Presbyterians retained the concept of order, even if they didn't retain the episcopate, so I should have phrased it differently. But I agree that validity for Presbyterians doesn't have anything to do with bishops. I have a theory that the fundamental difference between episcopal and presbyterian church government is that in the episcopal system 'oversight' is concentrated in the person of the bishop, but in presbyterianism it is diffused over the entire presbyteral body. Nennius 3/9/06
Episcopal Baptists? tell me more! Nennius 22/10/06
on 20 December 2006, this article was nominated to be a Good Article. While I agree it should, it's not quite ready. For one, such a long article and less than 10 citations. More in this article needs to be referenced. A few grammatical and historical errors also jar a bit. — ExplorerCDT 17:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
The attempt to gloss over the sheer barbarity of the Reformation in its opression of the Catholic Church is very concerning here. There clearly was "confiscation of Church properties, the dissolution of the monasteries, the execution of priests and the forced conformity to Anglican worship." Please indicate which of these facts is in dispute. If they are true then why do Anglicans need to pretend they did not happen?
Also, the resistance of Catholics to royal supremacy did not "culminate" in Mary's succession. That was a matter of heredity. "Culminate" implies two things which are not true. First, that there is a causal relationship between Catholic resistance and Mary's sucession and second, that Mary's succession was somehow the final chapter in the matter of Catholics in England. It is one event among many in a long series to the present. To imply that Mary's reign was something final about English Catholicism is an editorial bias against Catholicism which today is more widely practiced in England than Anglicanism! Please adhere to facts with precision.
Finally, the refusal to admit facts of major importance in regard to Catholic supression in England falsely gives the impression that English Protestants were somehow casual in their abuse of Catholics in this period or that these were legal matters without concrete implications in the daily lives of Catholics. Finally, the section's overall impression is that this was not a situation of the full power of the State to force religious adherence against a religious minority utterly deprived of not only its right to worship, but to all its institutional resources and in the case of priests, their very lives. This gloss is clearly intollerable in an expansive encyclopedic resource such as WP. It clearly suits the tastes of Anglicans alone.
The above paragraph as it stands is a mess. It buries the principle subject of the paragraph, Apostolicae Curae, at the end of a long convoluted introductory sentence. If the date, 1896 is moved up to the beginning of the sentence there is no need for the introductory "at the end of the nineteenth century."
Opposition to clear wording and competant text editing (without changes to facts) belies a certain possessiveness toward WP on the part of some editors which is clearly not in the spirit of "an open source" encyclopedia. Please stop the knee-jerk reactions to good copy-editing.
I have been advised on two points: First, to assume good faith. I would like to assume good faith however, there are editors which have erased my contributions without comment or explanation. This is not good faith and only causes resentment especially for someone new here. It is ironic that Anglicans want to tussle over plain facts and straight forward copy editing in a section on ecumenism. How ecumenical is that???
The other point I was advised on was to "sign" my comments. So here goes. 129.74.120.74 19:34, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
text concerning the points I have elucidated. Fishhead64 21:21, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
In a section on Anglican-Catholic relations it IS important to be clear on the origin of tensions. To merely state "coersion" to Anglican worship implies that there were Catholic parishes forced to adopt Anglican style worship. This is not the case. These parishes were confiscated. The coersion comes in with the forced ATTENDANCE at Anglican worship. This is quite a different beast!
The principle defect with the term "culminated" is that it implies that Catholic opposition somehow led to Mary's assumption of the throne. This is not the case. Her ascension to the throne was not extraordinary but following the normal course. If you prefer to say that Catholic efforts to return to or preserve communion with Rome (Roman supremacy is very poor language) ended with Mary, that is fine with me. "Culminated" however, is inaccurate.
Catholic parlance does not speak of "Roman supremacy" but rather communion with Rome. It is also proper to speak of being under Rome's apostolic authority. It is true that Henry VIII asserted royal supremacy. However, the parallel to royal supremacy is communion with Rome, not "Roman supremacy." If you wish to differ, please find the term for me in a reputable Catholic source.
The dissolution of monasteries, the execution of Catholic priests etc. are not mere "details" but rather give the essential vividness necessary to understand the topic at hand, Angican-Catholic ecumenical relations. These details while not descriptive of the essence of current Anglicanism, ARE essential to understand the history of Anglican-Catholic relations. If those details are inappropriate to this article, I would suggest this entire subject should be moved elsewhere.
If you will look at the Catholic Church page, there is ample inclusion of controversial matter. It seems that Anglicans cannot tolerate a few sentences of relevant facts which might muss up an otherwise rosy a picture of the Anglican Communion.
I hope that this reply is sufficient to hold you back from your ultimatum at least for a few hours.
129.74.120.74
22:00, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Regarding your third point, I was not making a point regarding when Anglicans first claimed apostolic succession, although that is highly debatable. My point was that Apostolicae Curae which is the subject of the paragraph was in response to the Oxford Movement. Prior to that movement the Catholicity of Anglicanism was at issue, the acceptance of that movement's claims by the Church of England which took decades WAS the backdrop of Apostolicae Curae. Placing historical developments in their contexts IS what an Encyclopedia does. The prior wording was rather vague on the overall picture of late 19th Century Anglicanism which provoked the question which Rome answered in that document. I really dont understand what all the fuss is about when someone improves clarity. Is there a sacred cow I am unaware of? Why so touchy? 129.74.120.74 01:13, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to get into an argument about whether or not the Anglican Church is Catholic or has apostolic succession. That is not for me to decide, or you, for that matter. My point is that Apostolicae Curae was written at the end of the 19th century for a reason. It was not written in the 18th C. nor the 17th, nor the 16th! It was written at the end of the 19th Century precisely as the Anglo-Catholic movement begun at Oxford was finally gaining ascendancy. This movement asserted the Catholicism of Anglicanism in a way that had not been before. The movement reversed the historic dissolution of the monasteries, brought back Catholic vestments, re-instituted Adoration, Benediction and even visible reservation of the Eucharist. The re-emergence of Eucharistic devotions in particular raised the question of validity. The conclusion may have been tragic, hurtful, even wrong. That is not my point. My point is that there is a precise backdrop to the moment of 1896 without which one cannot grasp the historical significance of the Apostolicae Curae. I cannot imagine why it be so threatening to acknowlege AC as a Roman response to the Oxford Movement. Also, to say that the Oxford Movement asserted apostolic succession is not to say that no one did so prior. This is a common error made by critics of Catholicism who say for example that the definition of the Assumption of Mary was a 20th century innovation. Clearly, that title goes back to at least the 4th or 3rd century. Like the Assumption, there were a variety of strains of thought on Catholicity among Anglicans. The ascendancy of Anglo-Catholicism actually brought about some defections such as the modern day REC which broke off in 1873 and the ACC? which broke off in the 1840's? over claims of catholicity. One shoud be able to hold one's theological position without being threatened by the reality of historical complexity. Thomas Aquinas opposed the Immaculate Conception! (Though it is unencyclopedic to ascribe motivations, it is my opinion that Roman was threatened by all the apparent Romanism going on outside it borders. This must have been at least an unconscious factor in the conclusions of AC.
Sorry, I am rambling in part because I see so many parallets between the Anglican crises of the 19th century and the current Anglican realignment, which to some degree has a low church-high church dimension under the guises of the terms liberal and evangelical. This is imprecise as there are high church conservatives, I know. But the question of the evangelical/Calvinist dimension of Anglicanism is now 5 Centuries old.
Regarding confiscation of property, it is well documented that the lands and properties did not just remain with the Anglican Church. If that were so, a fair argument could be made that it simply remain with the same institution politically reconfigured. However, the lands in question, particularly the monasteries did not remain with the Church of England but were assumed by the crown and used more or less as bribes to buy the religious consciences of the nobility who now had a vested interest in cooperating with the established Church. Such Machiavellian political machinations (rather than a sudden pious national change of heart) were the very stuff of Catholic - Anglican tensions. Presenting these details in one single sentence is not too much to ask. These facts give a concreteness to the otherwise abstract and opaque language of "enforced uniformity." Resistance to admitting such details appears to belie a desire to intentionally obscure relevant facts. You will notice that I have not moved to obscure facts on the negative side. I would not oppose but indeed welcome a mention of Guy Falkes, if you like. My intention here is not to win a tally of points for "my side" but rather to communicate the drama of Anglo-Catholic relations, historical progress and difficulties with vividness. Otherwise, the text is a bland and somewhat untrue presentation of the matter. My sentiments alike for the execution of priests. Yeah, it grizzly, but the English have given the Catholic Church some of her greatest martyrs. We owe it to them to not give them short shrift. The intensity of animosity which our Churches have overcome is THE story of Anglo-Catholic relations. It is virtually miraculous and a vivid sign of divine grace and mercy. So why hide it under a bushel? especially if it is just a matter of a sentence or two. (As a Ukrainian, I marvel at the reconciliations happening on an informal basis all over the place. But there is far less to marvel over how far we have come, if we cannot plainly say how bad the bad old days were.
Apologies for the mental meanderings. EastmeetsWest 02:12, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Why is there an image of the Tridentine Mass on this page. Whoever put it there would clearly have read that this was an image of a Catholic Mass. While the old Prayer Book may have looked similar, it was definitely not the same thing. If there is an image of Anglican worship, it would be appropriate to use it. Still, this image really should come down. 129.74.120.74 00:59, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
whoever created the redirects from episcopalian and episcopalianism to anglican should be aware that episcopalianism is NOT a form of Anglicanism. There is a complicanted history involved, and I won't get involved in it here. There is a good article,
episcopal, about episcopalianism. I have changed the redirects to that article.
Bobburito 03:32, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Nrgdocadams 22:35, 7 January 2006 (UTC)Nrgdocadams
Eno-Etile 21:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Each of those pages has links to Bishop and vice versa. Each of those separate articles has a good reason to exist and should not be converted into one huge Bishop article which attempts to provide all knowledge of everything concerning bishops. It would completely unreadable. Dabbler 11:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
The Scottish Episcopal Church has its roots in post-Scottish reformation attempts to reintroduce bishops, resulting in two church traditions before James VI acceded to the English throne, and developed separately. You're missing out on a significant part of the development of the world-wide communion if you ignore the piskies. .... dave souza, talk 10:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I think the bottom line for Anglicans in this matter is that we need to avoid using the word 'catholic' in any way which-- 203.214.141.208 05:32, 9 July 2006 (UTC) implies that members of the pope's church are catholics and we are not. My St. Joseph Daily Missal from the 1960's has the expression "Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church" on the title page, so I dont see what all the fuss is about. I was also under the impression that objection to the term 'Roman Catholic' was an Irish quirk, and that Roman Catholics in other parts of the world were quite happy to be Roman Catholics Nennius, 3/9/06
Obviously there's always going to be some overlap, but might it be an idea to have a clearer split between the institution (Church of England) and the 'ideology' (not quite the right word, but you see what I mean) (Anglicanism), or even merge the 2? Neddyseagoon 14:30, 18 May 2006 (UTC)neddyseagoon
The Church of England is not the same as Anglicanism. Yes, it was identical in 1700, but today Anglicanism embraces also the Church of Nigeria, the Episcopal Church (to mention two extremes) and the Church of England has its own distinction within Anglicanism (e.g., to my knowledge, the only Anglican state church, has the Queen of England as head, etc.
It might be well to put everything general to Anglicanism and refer to it in Church of England as well as in the other Anglican churches - but that's sorting out, not merging. -- Irmgard 13:44, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm definitely against merging this with "Church of England" for all the reasons outline in the previous entry. Irmgard is quite right. Cor Unum 07:36, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
>anglicans are second largest sect of Christianity globally with over 77 million member
There are over 150 million orthodox christian people (those who believe the apostolic succession of their priests originates from Apostle John, the youngest disciple).
In turn catholic belive the apostolic succession of their priests originates from Peter and Paul, who died in Rome. They are the most populous religion worldwide.
actually there are around 77 million and over 300 million Protestants and 1 billion catholics. AngryAfghan
Why couldn't the word 'larger' be substituted for 'largest'? Nennius
I think that King Henry VIII should be mensioned in this article as he is in the article about himself. In schools when children learn about ANGLICANISM they learn that the founder of this religion was King Henry VIII.
A vandal made some edits to this page, which I reverted. However, they may be a problem with the See Also section. If somone more familiar with this article could check it out, I would be much obliged. - Dr. Zaret 02:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
A new WikiProject focussing on Anglicanism and the Anglican Communion has just been initiated: WikiProject Anglicanism. Our goal is to improve and expand Anglican-reltaed articles. If anyone (Anglican or non-Anglican) is interested, read over the project page and consider signing up. Cheers! Fishhead64 06:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I've always wondered about this. What is the symbolism and origin of the four spires in a square that marks most (all?) anglican churches? Thanks. El Gringo 18:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I stand corrected, MB. This is the type of church square tower that I am speaking of:
http://www.wicklow.ie/Wicklow%20400/Photo%20Gallery/images/Church%20of%20Ireland,%20Nuns%20Cross%20Ashford.jpg
And this:
http://www.interment.net/data/ireland/dublin/stbrigid/DX-211.jpg
And this:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~rosdavies/photos/KilkeelKilhorneCofIAnnalong.JPG
And this, the most important Anglican church in Ireland:
http://www.planetware.com/i/photo/cathedral-of-the-church-of-ireland-armagh-arptcth.jpg
I have thought that it symbolised the crown's supremacy over the church, but I have no basis for that. All I know is that it is extremely rare- I cannot recall one instance of it- to see such a tower on a Catholic Church in Ireland.
El Gringo
21:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to get into an edit war with someone who seems to be irredeemably hostile to the Anglican churches. However I have decided to put up the disputed section template until some of the statements can be conclusively verified with citations or at least to warn others that I consider them to be totally POV and wrong asthey are written now. Dabbler 01:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
"Catholic and Reformed" is a term used by Anglo-Catholics to affirm Catholicims and avoid the term Protestant. Actually, there are a great many in the Anglican Communion who identify themselves as Protestants. The Church of Scotland "which is not a daughter church" of the Church of England is decidedly Protestant.-- Vaquero100 21:21, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I have no problem with Anglo-Catholic claims to being catholic. I have a problem with all efforts to rob the Catholic Church of the use of her name which appears to be a common Anglican project on WP. I have a problem also with Anglo-Catholicism speaking for all Anglicans who are, in fact, mixed on the issue.
Also, after 2 months of Fishhead's hounding and Catholic-baiting on the RCC page, it is time to take the argument to the source of the bigotry.
My work on WP is consistant and principled and aimed at seeking justice against Anglican Anti-Catholicism.-- Vaquero100 21:26, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Have you told all your Catholic friends that you and your Anglican fellows are systematically irradicating the use of the name of the Catholic Church on WP? I assure you their amusement would cease if you did. You and your fellow have acted utterly without sensitivity to Catholics. This is hurtful and maddening. I have no problem with any member of the Anglican Churches. This all started with the intollerance of Anglicans toward the Catholic Church in the use of her name.
I am sure it is socially acceptible in England and other Anglican dominated circles to refuse to acknowledge the name of the Catholic Church. But you need to know that it is patently uncivil. This discussion WILL NOT END until until the name of the Catholic Church is recognized. -- Vaquero100 21:46, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
PS, Vaquero - Don't edit my talk comments. This is considered vandalism, and is certainly reportable. Fishhead64 21:56, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
ARCIC, as I have said before is a rare instance of a concession by the Catholic Church to appease Anglicans on the comission. It was never intended as a justification to irradicate the name of the Catholic Church in all public fora such as WP. If you look closesly you will see that the Catholic Church calls itself such in all its encyclical letters and conciliar documents. -- Vaquero100 22:54, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but it is Anglicans that have forced the Catholic Church off of the Catholic Church page. That is what is at issue here. Your fellows are engaged in a campaign to irradicate the name of the Catholic Church on WP. Please. Please. Please. Stop the suppression of the Catholic Church's name! Anglican bullying tactics might work in England, but they wont for long on the internet. --
Vaquero100
23:29, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, Gareth, it has been Anglicans who have been telling Catholics what to call ourselves for a few centuries. Now, maybe you know what it is like. There is a systematic campaign by Anglican on WP to prevent the use of the Catholic Church's name. It is time for this to end. It has been spearheaded by Fishhead64 and been going on for almost 4 months on the RCC page. This has got to stop.-- Vaquero100 23:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Ah, true Anglican colors now show. Papist? why not just call us fisheaters? There is only one entity by the name of Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has no problem with other churches incorporating the word Catholic in their names. Glad to share. But all groups and organizations have the right to name themselves. The campaign to irradicate the name of the Catholic Church is a abuse. --
Vaquero100
00:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually, slurs like "Papist" and "Romish," born of bigotry are the very origin of the name "Roman Catholic." This is one reason we Catholics object to the term. Besides, where is this other "catholic church?" -- Vaquero100 00:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Nobody is asking other churches to change their names. They all have fine names. The Catholic Church is what the pope calls his church, so there is no shame issue here. The issue is Catholic baiting, Piskies and all.-- Vaquero100 00:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Philip Jenkins, an Episcopalian historian, in The New Anti-Catholicism: The Last Acceptable Prejudice (Oxford University Press 2005 ISBN 0195154800) maintains that some people who otherwise avoid offending members of racial, ethnic or gender groups drop their guard regarding religion. Earlier in the twentieth century, Harvard professor Arthur M. Schlesinger, Sr. characterized prejudice against the Catholic Church as "the deepest bias in the history of the American people" and Yale professor Peter Viereck once commented that "Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals."
The claim that the churches of the Anglican Communion are "autocephalous" is ridiculous. A Googles search (Anglican autocephalous) produced only one occurance and that was the WP article on the Anglican Church in Canada written by Fishhead. This is just another example of this Protestant church donning the clothes of Catholics and Orthodox in an attempt to gain an elusive legitimacy. This is especially shameless in a time when the Windsor Report and other Anglican documents using the term "independent" and "interdependent" are flooding the internet. Nice try.
Fishhead. I HAVE assumed good faith, but all evidence is to the contrary. -- Vaquero100 21:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I belong to the Anglican Church of Australia, the Primate of which is elected without reference to any ecclesiastical authority outside of Australia. If that doesn't make the Anglican Church of Australia autocephalous what on earth does autocephalous mean? Nennius 3/9/06
First, I really think the back and forth on this is not productive - it's a question of who suffered more, and I think we all know that the Reformation and Counter-Reformation produced enough bloodshed and repression on all sides. Moreover, any comprehensive discussion of the English Reformation (and its discontents!) should properly be at English Reformation, and the abusive and bigoted legislation and its impact can be fully unpacked at Catholic Emancipation.
Second, if one is going to make claims about ARCIC (e.g., that the RCC views the process as "increasingly irrelevant," or that it is placing more emphasis on dialogue with Anglican schismatics), these should be backed up in some way. Part of my ministry is in ecumenical and multifaith dialogue, and I wrote a comprehensive review of the ARCIC document on Mary. That is certainly not my perception of the official position. Fishhead64 04:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
The papal bull of 1570 excommunicated Elizabeth and urged her subjects to depose her (Dickens, The English Reformation, 2nd ed., p. 366). In what way does this not constitute an authorisation of rebellion? It is true that few English Catholics sought the violent overthrown of the crown, although papal supremacy was definitely a factor in the Anglo-Spanish War. Nonetheless, in the end, the bull did authorise rebellion [1].
I can understand a concern for balance - which I thought my edits had achieved - but historical revisionism is unjustifiable. Fishhead64 19:20, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
It needs to be recognised that what Pius V did was issue a fatwa against Elizabeth. Nennius 3/9/06
It is the case, is it not, that the Church is feminine but the country is masculine? Unfortunately, my Latin is very rusty. So, my question is, etymologically, which is more appropriate - Church or State? LOL! Fishhead64 22:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
hehe, I'm not honestly sure about this one. I only intended to conform it with OED, which suggests a root of medieval Latin Anglican-us, from Anglic-us. If consensus wants it changed back, I've no objection. Carl.bunderson 22:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I would like to offer my apologies to the Anglicans on WP and especially those who edit this page. I realize that I have let my frustration boil over into some outrageous verbal vengence on this page in recent weeks. This was clearly out of order. I regret the offenses I have given.
I might add here that I did go to confession today, and am now in much better spirits. Accordingly, I have made the resolve to "amend my life" as the Act of Contrition states and this applies to WP.
Have a good night. -- Vaquero100 02:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
In the "Post-Reformation" section, the article shows:
Surely the (in this specific case) equivocal term "catholic" within such a passage, within such a section, and within such an article will be most generally misinterpreted; especially since the Anglican Church -- at least in those times -- had a far stronger connexion with the views of the Vatican.
I feel that a better, more informative, and different term must be chosen. Lindsay658 07:02, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
"Philosophically" you may think the distinction is HUGE, but as a practical matter and as a matter of plain fact, the distinction is FALSE. Vaquero100 05:37, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
S
Every so often I try to insert a few sentences to explain that article six of the XXXIX articles very subtly alters the Protestant principle that all aspects of Christian faith and practice must be justified by an appeal to the Bible to a recognition that not all aspects can be, and that Christians ought to be able to disagree but continue to worship at the same altar. Yet someone always deletes it. Why? I would have thought that this was one of the English church's most distinctive features. Nennius
Article VI is phrased in a negative way; 'whatsoever is NOT read...','NOT to be required of...'. As I understand it, the position of the continental reformers was that all things MUST be proved by scripture. The Anglican position, as enunciated in Article VI, subtly changes this, in the hope that it might allow people of different beliefs to continue to worship together without wanting to tear each other to pieces, or to set up rival religious establishments, which 16th century European rulers were unwilling to countenance, as likely to lead to civil unrest, treason and foreign invasion. Article VI recognises that outside a few core beliefs that hardly anyone in 16th century Europe was questioning, there are a whole range of Christian beliefs and practices where the Bible does not give definitive answers, and where it is legitimate for Christians to differ. Nennius, 2/9/06
I have re-inserted a sentence on how Article VI differs from the classical Protestant position. If anyone deletes it could they please explain why. Nennius 22/10/06
I moved a load of stuff about ordination and sucession to the ecumenism section: Roman Catholic and Orthodox opinion about Anglican orders is not a part of Anglican doctrine. But there's still too much detail about recognition of orders interrupting the general disuccion of Anglican doctrine. Anglican Christianity is not primarily about the validity of orders. Myopic Bookworm 15:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
No, but the validity or otherwise of Anglican orders does make an interesting discussion topic, even if it has no significance beyond that. Nennius 3/9/06
In today's updates, Lima wrote an interesting new sentence. I am afraid I quickly deleted it for discussion:
Firstly I am not sure how it fits in with 'Doctrine - Catholic and Reformed'.
Secondly, I am not sure it says what you mean it to say. As an example, Westminster Confession presbyterians require that an ordained pastor conduct the (two) sacraments. This follows through to ecumenical presbyterians, who expect that an Anglican priest should be validly ordained. Of course, validity for them has less to do with the historic episcopate, and more to do with church order. But, all the same, they are concerned about 'validity'.
It is an interesting issue that I feel belongs in paragraphs and articles about ordination and protestant ecumenism, rather than a piece about Anglican doctrine.
Rather than debating this, how do you feel about leaving it out altogether? -- Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) ( Talk) 17:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The statement is for all intents and purposes, false. It should be removed. — ExplorerCDT 00:06, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
When I wrote that sentence I had forgotten that Presbyterians retained the concept of order, even if they didn't retain the episcopate, so I should have phrased it differently. But I agree that validity for Presbyterians doesn't have anything to do with bishops. I have a theory that the fundamental difference between episcopal and presbyterian church government is that in the episcopal system 'oversight' is concentrated in the person of the bishop, but in presbyterianism it is diffused over the entire presbyteral body. Nennius 3/9/06
Episcopal Baptists? tell me more! Nennius 22/10/06
on 20 December 2006, this article was nominated to be a Good Article. While I agree it should, it's not quite ready. For one, such a long article and less than 10 citations. More in this article needs to be referenced. A few grammatical and historical errors also jar a bit. — ExplorerCDT 17:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
The attempt to gloss over the sheer barbarity of the Reformation in its opression of the Catholic Church is very concerning here. There clearly was "confiscation of Church properties, the dissolution of the monasteries, the execution of priests and the forced conformity to Anglican worship." Please indicate which of these facts is in dispute. If they are true then why do Anglicans need to pretend they did not happen?
Also, the resistance of Catholics to royal supremacy did not "culminate" in Mary's succession. That was a matter of heredity. "Culminate" implies two things which are not true. First, that there is a causal relationship between Catholic resistance and Mary's sucession and second, that Mary's succession was somehow the final chapter in the matter of Catholics in England. It is one event among many in a long series to the present. To imply that Mary's reign was something final about English Catholicism is an editorial bias against Catholicism which today is more widely practiced in England than Anglicanism! Please adhere to facts with precision.
Finally, the refusal to admit facts of major importance in regard to Catholic supression in England falsely gives the impression that English Protestants were somehow casual in their abuse of Catholics in this period or that these were legal matters without concrete implications in the daily lives of Catholics. Finally, the section's overall impression is that this was not a situation of the full power of the State to force religious adherence against a religious minority utterly deprived of not only its right to worship, but to all its institutional resources and in the case of priests, their very lives. This gloss is clearly intollerable in an expansive encyclopedic resource such as WP. It clearly suits the tastes of Anglicans alone.
The above paragraph as it stands is a mess. It buries the principle subject of the paragraph, Apostolicae Curae, at the end of a long convoluted introductory sentence. If the date, 1896 is moved up to the beginning of the sentence there is no need for the introductory "at the end of the nineteenth century."
Opposition to clear wording and competant text editing (without changes to facts) belies a certain possessiveness toward WP on the part of some editors which is clearly not in the spirit of "an open source" encyclopedia. Please stop the knee-jerk reactions to good copy-editing.
I have been advised on two points: First, to assume good faith. I would like to assume good faith however, there are editors which have erased my contributions without comment or explanation. This is not good faith and only causes resentment especially for someone new here. It is ironic that Anglicans want to tussle over plain facts and straight forward copy editing in a section on ecumenism. How ecumenical is that???
The other point I was advised on was to "sign" my comments. So here goes. 129.74.120.74 19:34, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
text concerning the points I have elucidated. Fishhead64 21:21, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
In a section on Anglican-Catholic relations it IS important to be clear on the origin of tensions. To merely state "coersion" to Anglican worship implies that there were Catholic parishes forced to adopt Anglican style worship. This is not the case. These parishes were confiscated. The coersion comes in with the forced ATTENDANCE at Anglican worship. This is quite a different beast!
The principle defect with the term "culminated" is that it implies that Catholic opposition somehow led to Mary's assumption of the throne. This is not the case. Her ascension to the throne was not extraordinary but following the normal course. If you prefer to say that Catholic efforts to return to or preserve communion with Rome (Roman supremacy is very poor language) ended with Mary, that is fine with me. "Culminated" however, is inaccurate.
Catholic parlance does not speak of "Roman supremacy" but rather communion with Rome. It is also proper to speak of being under Rome's apostolic authority. It is true that Henry VIII asserted royal supremacy. However, the parallel to royal supremacy is communion with Rome, not "Roman supremacy." If you wish to differ, please find the term for me in a reputable Catholic source.
The dissolution of monasteries, the execution of Catholic priests etc. are not mere "details" but rather give the essential vividness necessary to understand the topic at hand, Angican-Catholic ecumenical relations. These details while not descriptive of the essence of current Anglicanism, ARE essential to understand the history of Anglican-Catholic relations. If those details are inappropriate to this article, I would suggest this entire subject should be moved elsewhere.
If you will look at the Catholic Church page, there is ample inclusion of controversial matter. It seems that Anglicans cannot tolerate a few sentences of relevant facts which might muss up an otherwise rosy a picture of the Anglican Communion.
I hope that this reply is sufficient to hold you back from your ultimatum at least for a few hours.
129.74.120.74
22:00, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Regarding your third point, I was not making a point regarding when Anglicans first claimed apostolic succession, although that is highly debatable. My point was that Apostolicae Curae which is the subject of the paragraph was in response to the Oxford Movement. Prior to that movement the Catholicity of Anglicanism was at issue, the acceptance of that movement's claims by the Church of England which took decades WAS the backdrop of Apostolicae Curae. Placing historical developments in their contexts IS what an Encyclopedia does. The prior wording was rather vague on the overall picture of late 19th Century Anglicanism which provoked the question which Rome answered in that document. I really dont understand what all the fuss is about when someone improves clarity. Is there a sacred cow I am unaware of? Why so touchy? 129.74.120.74 01:13, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to get into an argument about whether or not the Anglican Church is Catholic or has apostolic succession. That is not for me to decide, or you, for that matter. My point is that Apostolicae Curae was written at the end of the 19th century for a reason. It was not written in the 18th C. nor the 17th, nor the 16th! It was written at the end of the 19th Century precisely as the Anglo-Catholic movement begun at Oxford was finally gaining ascendancy. This movement asserted the Catholicism of Anglicanism in a way that had not been before. The movement reversed the historic dissolution of the monasteries, brought back Catholic vestments, re-instituted Adoration, Benediction and even visible reservation of the Eucharist. The re-emergence of Eucharistic devotions in particular raised the question of validity. The conclusion may have been tragic, hurtful, even wrong. That is not my point. My point is that there is a precise backdrop to the moment of 1896 without which one cannot grasp the historical significance of the Apostolicae Curae. I cannot imagine why it be so threatening to acknowlege AC as a Roman response to the Oxford Movement. Also, to say that the Oxford Movement asserted apostolic succession is not to say that no one did so prior. This is a common error made by critics of Catholicism who say for example that the definition of the Assumption of Mary was a 20th century innovation. Clearly, that title goes back to at least the 4th or 3rd century. Like the Assumption, there were a variety of strains of thought on Catholicity among Anglicans. The ascendancy of Anglo-Catholicism actually brought about some defections such as the modern day REC which broke off in 1873 and the ACC? which broke off in the 1840's? over claims of catholicity. One shoud be able to hold one's theological position without being threatened by the reality of historical complexity. Thomas Aquinas opposed the Immaculate Conception! (Though it is unencyclopedic to ascribe motivations, it is my opinion that Roman was threatened by all the apparent Romanism going on outside it borders. This must have been at least an unconscious factor in the conclusions of AC.
Sorry, I am rambling in part because I see so many parallets between the Anglican crises of the 19th century and the current Anglican realignment, which to some degree has a low church-high church dimension under the guises of the terms liberal and evangelical. This is imprecise as there are high church conservatives, I know. But the question of the evangelical/Calvinist dimension of Anglicanism is now 5 Centuries old.
Regarding confiscation of property, it is well documented that the lands and properties did not just remain with the Anglican Church. If that were so, a fair argument could be made that it simply remain with the same institution politically reconfigured. However, the lands in question, particularly the monasteries did not remain with the Church of England but were assumed by the crown and used more or less as bribes to buy the religious consciences of the nobility who now had a vested interest in cooperating with the established Church. Such Machiavellian political machinations (rather than a sudden pious national change of heart) were the very stuff of Catholic - Anglican tensions. Presenting these details in one single sentence is not too much to ask. These facts give a concreteness to the otherwise abstract and opaque language of "enforced uniformity." Resistance to admitting such details appears to belie a desire to intentionally obscure relevant facts. You will notice that I have not moved to obscure facts on the negative side. I would not oppose but indeed welcome a mention of Guy Falkes, if you like. My intention here is not to win a tally of points for "my side" but rather to communicate the drama of Anglo-Catholic relations, historical progress and difficulties with vividness. Otherwise, the text is a bland and somewhat untrue presentation of the matter. My sentiments alike for the execution of priests. Yeah, it grizzly, but the English have given the Catholic Church some of her greatest martyrs. We owe it to them to not give them short shrift. The intensity of animosity which our Churches have overcome is THE story of Anglo-Catholic relations. It is virtually miraculous and a vivid sign of divine grace and mercy. So why hide it under a bushel? especially if it is just a matter of a sentence or two. (As a Ukrainian, I marvel at the reconciliations happening on an informal basis all over the place. But there is far less to marvel over how far we have come, if we cannot plainly say how bad the bad old days were.
Apologies for the mental meanderings. EastmeetsWest 02:12, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Why is there an image of the Tridentine Mass on this page. Whoever put it there would clearly have read that this was an image of a Catholic Mass. While the old Prayer Book may have looked similar, it was definitely not the same thing. If there is an image of Anglican worship, it would be appropriate to use it. Still, this image really should come down. 129.74.120.74 00:59, 26 December 2006 (UTC)