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I would like to discuss the last paragraph of the realignment section of this article:
"The Episcopal Church's Presiding Bishop, Katharine Jefferts Schori, stated that "The Episcopal Diocese of Quincy remains, albeit with fewer members".[2] The legality of these secession actions is not supported by either the Constitution and Canons of the Episcopal Church (which does not provide for annulment or secession by a diocese) or those of the Province of the Southern Cone (which does not provide for dioceses outside southern South America).[7] As a consequence, the long-term effect of these votes is unclear, as with similar actions in the Diocese of San Joaquin and the Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh; those two dioceses have each split into two factions, with each faction claiming to be the legitimate succession of the traditional diocese."
Perhaps the author of this paragraph could cite exactly what the Constitution and Canons of the Episcopal Church say about dioceses withdrawing membership(or not withdrawing membership as the case may be.) It is a very large document, and to simply cite the whole thing to prove a point isn't particularly helpful.
Also, The constitution of the Province of the Southern Cone is pretty clear that any diocese that "voluntary declares itself as an integral member" is eligible for membership in the province. The use of the term "and" in that sentence instead of other phrases like "in addition to" or "as well as" identifies the geographic location and the voluntary declarations as being two separate qualifiers.
In either the case of the Southern Cone or the Episcopal Church, this paragraph in the article seems to be giving a legal opinion. I am not sure that the author is qualified to give such an opinion on legality, and I'm not sure that Wikipedia accepts legal opinions as being neutral. This is what sparked my original citation of NPOV. Please discuss. Rhwc ( talk) 20:12, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Currently the Episcopal Diocese article is a redirect here, but I think the structure of having parallel articles (as we do for San Joaquin and Pittsburgh) is an effective one. Probably it is too soon to write the Episcopal article until we have more reports about what measures TEC is taking for establishing non-realigned structures in Western Illinois, but for the time being, I have made certain categories that apply to the Episcopal concept of Quincy, and not to the Southern Cone concept of Quincy, into invisible comments.
Furthermore, with all three of these dioceses, I think we need to think about changing the map used for the Southern Cone version of the articles. The maps show the Episcopal diocesan boundaries, which are not relevant for Southern Cone polities (the boundaries of the diocese in question may be the same, but the map for the Diocese of Quincy also shows the border between the Diocese of Western Michigan and the Diocese of Michigan, for example, which have nothing to do with the Southern Cone. New maps should be drawn showing some kind of grey area between Quincy and Pittsburgh (extra-territorial area, like Canada), and showing where these are located in relation to Uruguay, Argentina, etc.-- Bhuck ( talk) 08:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I've been trying to clean up some "citation needed" points in the historical section and have searched in vain for anything to back up the claim that the Anglo-Catholic character of the diocese extends to the days of its founding in the mid-19th century. A normally-reliable 1884 (approximately contemporary with the 1877 founding) reference contains not a hint. Robert Prichard's History of the EC mentions that the Illinois delegation voted unanimously in favor of an anti-Oxford resolution at the 1844 General Convention, a vote which must surely have included people who were later in the dio of Quincy. Unless someone has a reference for this claim I think it should go. Rose bartram ( talk) 01:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
See also: § Realignment of article content -- Closeapple ( talk) 05:46, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
An editor keeps wanting to add an inappropriate map here, which shows TEC diocesan boundaries: boundaries that are not relevant to this non-EC diocese which itself doesn't respect or regard those boundaries as of consequence. If we want a map that shows the territory this diocese claims, that's fine, but showing other TEC diocesan boundaries on it suggests incorrectly that this diocese has anything to do with TEC, which it patently does not. Tb ( talk) 03:55, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
The map says nothing about TEC; it is clearly marked as being for historical reference purposes. The parishes of the diocese are in fact located in this area and both sides of this contriversy say that this is where the diocese is. The map makes the article more informative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.193.96.101 ( talk) 21:19, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
The Episcopal Diocese has now reformed and a split article has been started. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WestArdmore ( talk • contribs) 01:50, 6 April 2009 (UTC) (+')
This diocese is now a member of the Anglican Church in North America and the article title should be changed to reflect that. Thanks. Ltwin ( talk) 04:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Apart from the Traditional Anglican Communion, the article should really consider verifying whether groups within the Diocese of Quincy (Southern Cone) have ever sought a similar canonical structure to the proposed personal ordinariates. ADM ( talk) 18:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
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Before 2008, there was a single Diocese of Quincy, and a single Wikipedia article named "Episcopal Diocese of Quincy". In 2008, it schismed, as did several other Episcopal/Anglican dioceses in the United States, in what was called Anglican realignment. On Wikipedia at the time, the path of least drama apparently to fork the content into two articles for schisming dioceses, so that adherents of each side could feel like "their" subject was the one with the full treatment. But that's against Wikipedia guidelines: It's somewhere between the two types of unacceptable types of forking. And it's been over 10 years, which ought to be long enough for any zealots to have moved on, or at least be weak enough that normal Wikipedia consensus can end any drama from doing the right thing by Wikipedia standards.
The two resulting articles in 2008 were Diocese of Quincy (ACNA) (which I'll call article A) and the present Episcopal Diocese of Quincy (which I'll call article E).
In the spirit of Wikipedia:Be bold, I intend to consolidate most of the duplicate content into one of the articles, and leave the other subject's article with mostly the information that differs from the other subject since 2008. Absent consensus otherwise, I intend to leave article A as the "long" article, and make article E the "short" article, for two reasons based on neutral Wikipedia guidelines rather than religious reasons:
After the article realignment (so to speak), it will be clear what parts of the Diocese of Quincy history are lacking proper treatment: basically everything before 2008. I'll leave this discussion open for a very short time in case there are any points that would change the interpretation of Wikipedia guidelines. But I intend to make the change shortly, as a large part of the change is just the removal of copy-paste with not much editing. After that, perhaps people could work on the 1877–2008 details, since they won't have to worry about keeping duplicates in sync across two articles. -- Closeapple ( talk) 05:46, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
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I would like to discuss the last paragraph of the realignment section of this article:
"The Episcopal Church's Presiding Bishop, Katharine Jefferts Schori, stated that "The Episcopal Diocese of Quincy remains, albeit with fewer members".[2] The legality of these secession actions is not supported by either the Constitution and Canons of the Episcopal Church (which does not provide for annulment or secession by a diocese) or those of the Province of the Southern Cone (which does not provide for dioceses outside southern South America).[7] As a consequence, the long-term effect of these votes is unclear, as with similar actions in the Diocese of San Joaquin and the Episcopal Diocese of Pittsburgh; those two dioceses have each split into two factions, with each faction claiming to be the legitimate succession of the traditional diocese."
Perhaps the author of this paragraph could cite exactly what the Constitution and Canons of the Episcopal Church say about dioceses withdrawing membership(or not withdrawing membership as the case may be.) It is a very large document, and to simply cite the whole thing to prove a point isn't particularly helpful.
Also, The constitution of the Province of the Southern Cone is pretty clear that any diocese that "voluntary declares itself as an integral member" is eligible for membership in the province. The use of the term "and" in that sentence instead of other phrases like "in addition to" or "as well as" identifies the geographic location and the voluntary declarations as being two separate qualifiers.
In either the case of the Southern Cone or the Episcopal Church, this paragraph in the article seems to be giving a legal opinion. I am not sure that the author is qualified to give such an opinion on legality, and I'm not sure that Wikipedia accepts legal opinions as being neutral. This is what sparked my original citation of NPOV. Please discuss. Rhwc ( talk) 20:12, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Currently the Episcopal Diocese article is a redirect here, but I think the structure of having parallel articles (as we do for San Joaquin and Pittsburgh) is an effective one. Probably it is too soon to write the Episcopal article until we have more reports about what measures TEC is taking for establishing non-realigned structures in Western Illinois, but for the time being, I have made certain categories that apply to the Episcopal concept of Quincy, and not to the Southern Cone concept of Quincy, into invisible comments.
Furthermore, with all three of these dioceses, I think we need to think about changing the map used for the Southern Cone version of the articles. The maps show the Episcopal diocesan boundaries, which are not relevant for Southern Cone polities (the boundaries of the diocese in question may be the same, but the map for the Diocese of Quincy also shows the border between the Diocese of Western Michigan and the Diocese of Michigan, for example, which have nothing to do with the Southern Cone. New maps should be drawn showing some kind of grey area between Quincy and Pittsburgh (extra-territorial area, like Canada), and showing where these are located in relation to Uruguay, Argentina, etc.-- Bhuck ( talk) 08:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
I've been trying to clean up some "citation needed" points in the historical section and have searched in vain for anything to back up the claim that the Anglo-Catholic character of the diocese extends to the days of its founding in the mid-19th century. A normally-reliable 1884 (approximately contemporary with the 1877 founding) reference contains not a hint. Robert Prichard's History of the EC mentions that the Illinois delegation voted unanimously in favor of an anti-Oxford resolution at the 1844 General Convention, a vote which must surely have included people who were later in the dio of Quincy. Unless someone has a reference for this claim I think it should go. Rose bartram ( talk) 01:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
See also: § Realignment of article content -- Closeapple ( talk) 05:46, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
An editor keeps wanting to add an inappropriate map here, which shows TEC diocesan boundaries: boundaries that are not relevant to this non-EC diocese which itself doesn't respect or regard those boundaries as of consequence. If we want a map that shows the territory this diocese claims, that's fine, but showing other TEC diocesan boundaries on it suggests incorrectly that this diocese has anything to do with TEC, which it patently does not. Tb ( talk) 03:55, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
The map says nothing about TEC; it is clearly marked as being for historical reference purposes. The parishes of the diocese are in fact located in this area and both sides of this contriversy say that this is where the diocese is. The map makes the article more informative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.193.96.101 ( talk) 21:19, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
The Episcopal Diocese has now reformed and a split article has been started. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WestArdmore ( talk • contribs) 01:50, 6 April 2009 (UTC) (+')
This diocese is now a member of the Anglican Church in North America and the article title should be changed to reflect that. Thanks. Ltwin ( talk) 04:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Apart from the Traditional Anglican Communion, the article should really consider verifying whether groups within the Diocese of Quincy (Southern Cone) have ever sought a similar canonical structure to the proposed personal ordinariates. ADM ( talk) 18:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
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Before 2008, there was a single Diocese of Quincy, and a single Wikipedia article named "Episcopal Diocese of Quincy". In 2008, it schismed, as did several other Episcopal/Anglican dioceses in the United States, in what was called Anglican realignment. On Wikipedia at the time, the path of least drama apparently to fork the content into two articles for schisming dioceses, so that adherents of each side could feel like "their" subject was the one with the full treatment. But that's against Wikipedia guidelines: It's somewhere between the two types of unacceptable types of forking. And it's been over 10 years, which ought to be long enough for any zealots to have moved on, or at least be weak enough that normal Wikipedia consensus can end any drama from doing the right thing by Wikipedia standards.
The two resulting articles in 2008 were Diocese of Quincy (ACNA) (which I'll call article A) and the present Episcopal Diocese of Quincy (which I'll call article E).
In the spirit of Wikipedia:Be bold, I intend to consolidate most of the duplicate content into one of the articles, and leave the other subject's article with mostly the information that differs from the other subject since 2008. Absent consensus otherwise, I intend to leave article A as the "long" article, and make article E the "short" article, for two reasons based on neutral Wikipedia guidelines rather than religious reasons:
After the article realignment (so to speak), it will be clear what parts of the Diocese of Quincy history are lacking proper treatment: basically everything before 2008. I'll leave this discussion open for a very short time in case there are any points that would change the interpretation of Wikipedia guidelines. But I intend to make the change shortly, as a large part of the change is just the removal of copy-paste with not much editing. After that, perhaps people could work on the 1877–2008 details, since they won't have to worry about keeping duplicates in sync across two articles. -- Closeapple ( talk) 05:46, 24 February 2019 (UTC)