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There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Anglican Diocese of Birmingham - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RM bot 21:41, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
I was wondering if this page should be moved as the New diocese will be called the Diocese of West Yorkshire and the Dales as per the following references [1], [2], [3], [4] and [5]-- Mharris99 ( talk) 11:02, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
This page might benefit from a section to explain the history and context of the (proposed) Leeds diocese. Whilst the article is well-referenced, it is a little bit confusing to a reader who is not already well aquainted with the structure of the Anglican church. Hopscotch23 ( talk) 04:12, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved to Diocese of West Yorkshire and the Dales. Large majority are in favour of renaming and it's also been shown the majority of reliable sources are using "West Yorkshire and the Dales" instead of "Leeds". Only question then remains whether to use "&" or "and". I've gone with "and" as I think more people were in favour of that and, glancing through the sources, most of the independent ones were using "and". Jenks24 ( talk) 06:55, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Although the legislation gives the official name at Leeds but allows for it to be known as West Yorkshire and the Dales, it is the latter name which is being commonly used, especially by the C of E itself - see
http://www.leeds.anglican.org/. Therefore, per
WP:COMMONNAME we should move this article to
Diocese of West Yorkshire & The Dales (currently a redirect) and keep the present and official name as a redirect.
Nthep (
talk)
21:19, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
I would strongly suggest that the page is moved from 'Anglican Diocese of Leeds' to 'Diocese of West Yorkshire and the Dales'. Although through parts of its nascent phase it may have been named Leeds, many legal entities have the power to rename themselves, such as local authorities whom a statutory instrument may give a particular name to a particular body but until its legal genesis (i.e. before it officially comes into existence) or indeed some time afterwards might give that body the power to amend its name to suit its own identity or mission. One recent example is the Combined authority for the Liverpool area: http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/merseyside-super-council-called-halton-6719391 which was what the name given: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/865/contents/made but the authorities involved renamed it: http://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/11117617._Super_council__will_take_Liverpool_name/?ref=var_0 and wikipedia as a consequence use the page title of this new name not the original name, although mention is made of this name: Liverpool City Region Combined Authority If the church authorities are happy with 'West Yorskhire and the Dales' and this is used on respectable media outlets such as mainstream newspapers and the bbc , I think it would be appropriate that Wikipedia also adopt this line: http://www.wyadtransformation.org The fact that there are two different standards on wikipedia firstly doesn't shine a good light for consistency. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.197.121.88 ( talk) 14:49, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
I believe the correct heading should be the 'Diocese of West Yorkshire and the Dales'. http://www.leeds.anglican.org/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.19.169 ( talk) 22:46, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Anglican Diocese of Leeds → Diocese of West Yorkshire & the Dales – The diocese refers to itself as the Diocese of West Yorkshire & the Dales, so does the BBC and Synod. It is the Diocese of West Yorkshire & the Dales headed by the Bishop of Leeds. Reliable verifiable sources call it the Diocese of West Yorkshire & the Dales. Furthermore, they only call it the Diocese of West Yorkshire & the Dales. There are no references to a Diocese of Leeds on the CofE's own site. In fact the site links to "westyorkshiredales.anglican.org". It is the official name, the common name used by reliable sources and the name used by neutral organisations (not in the the CofE), such as the BBC. Every time I would search for 'Diocese of Leeds' on British news sites (such as the Times, Telegraph and Guardian, I kept coming up with the Roman Catholic Diocese of Leeds. --Relisted. EdJohnston ( talk) 18:12, 20 July 2014 (UTC) Pjposullivan ( talk) 20:17, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
I think the point is that nobody was looking for reliable sources at the time - they just rather hurriedly said, 'Oh, it's been nicknamed the Diocese of West Yorkshire and the Dales, let's go with that' without pausing to think of what they were saying. I agree the C of E have made a rod for their own backs, but at the same time, there were these sources that could have been used to give some clarity:
Church of England press release: https://www.churchofengland.org/media-centre/news/2013/07/synod-approves-new-diocese-of-leeds-for-west-yorkshire-and-the-dales.aspx Archbishop of York's announcement: http://www.archbishopofyork.org/articles.php/3072/first-new-diocese-for-more-than-85-years-will-be-created-on-easter-day Announcement of appointment of new bishop: http://www.anglicannews.org/news/2014/02/first-bishop-of-leeds,-in-west-yorkshire-and-the-dales-named.aspx
Note that in all of them, although it refers colloquially to 'the Diocese of West Yorkshire and the Dales,' the official name of the diocese is given as the Diocese of Leeds. I am not recommending the article be completely renamed, but the sidebar at the very least should be changed. So, for example, there is an article on 'Mahatma' Gandhi because that's what everyone calls him, but the article makes it clear his name was actually Mohandas Gandhi. I would suggest something similar should be attempted here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.173.138.0 ( talk) 14:49, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
You would say wrong, however, because legally all dioceses in England are named after the seat of the Bishop. Therefore it is officially the Diocese of Leeds, and that is that. (Sodor and Man is not in England, before you query that.) The official sources above are therefore valid. However, it is known by its common name for two very good reasons (1) to avoid confusion with the Catholic Diocese of Leeds and (2) to allow for the fact that uniquely among all dioceses of the Church of England, it does not have a Cathedral in the See. I have therefore changed the first sentence to reflect that. The real irony, to my mind, is the colossal fuss that was made about not calling it the diocese of Wakefield if all they do is hide the official name anyway. 81.135.62.222 ( talk) 11:01, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
The Diocese has resolved to change its common name to "Diocese of Leeds", to match the legal name - http://www.westyorkshiredales.anglican.org/content/diocese-be-known-%E2%80%98diocese-leeds%E2%80%99 . According to their website the change will be made in July, at which point we should move and update this page. TSP ( talk) 21:56, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
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I'm not sure where to discuss this best generically (should probably be Wikipedia:WikiProject Anglicanism but from previous experience that's basically dead).
User:Mark J added a list of every church in a couple of deaneries to this page (presumably intending to add the others later), with external links to church or parish web pages and a list of their current clergy.
I removed this, as in my view is this isn't appropriate for Wikipedia - Wikipedia is not a directory. The clergy names in particular, which amount to more or less a complete staff directory for the organisation, seem to give a huge updating load. The Diocese of Leeds has over 450 clergy - even assuming they stay in post for an average 8 years (which I suspect is a significant overestimate given curates are included), that's still more than one change a week; and if it's outdated it's worse than useless. This seems to me to be information that should be on the Diocesan website or on A Church Near You, not Wikipedia. (Summary statistics and notable churches are fine.)
I now see, though, that this seems to be part of a project to add this data across all dioceses. I'm not sure where is the best place to discuss this? TSP ( talk) 15:44, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
@ Mark J: One additional slightly separate question (so breaking this out of the main thread of conversation above) - I noticed you'd done Sheffield, so took a look at my old parish, Sheffield Manor. That appears on your list as "Sheffield Manor (St Swithun)". The Manor parish has three churches, which as far as I know are formally equal, but if any was to be considered the 'lead' church, I'd have thought it would be St Aidan's - I was wondering how you determined what name to use? TSP ( talk) 11:29, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Anglican Diocese of Birmingham - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RM bot 21:41, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
I was wondering if this page should be moved as the New diocese will be called the Diocese of West Yorkshire and the Dales as per the following references [1], [2], [3], [4] and [5]-- Mharris99 ( talk) 11:02, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
This page might benefit from a section to explain the history and context of the (proposed) Leeds diocese. Whilst the article is well-referenced, it is a little bit confusing to a reader who is not already well aquainted with the structure of the Anglican church. Hopscotch23 ( talk) 04:12, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved to Diocese of West Yorkshire and the Dales. Large majority are in favour of renaming and it's also been shown the majority of reliable sources are using "West Yorkshire and the Dales" instead of "Leeds". Only question then remains whether to use "&" or "and". I've gone with "and" as I think more people were in favour of that and, glancing through the sources, most of the independent ones were using "and". Jenks24 ( talk) 06:55, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Although the legislation gives the official name at Leeds but allows for it to be known as West Yorkshire and the Dales, it is the latter name which is being commonly used, especially by the C of E itself - see
http://www.leeds.anglican.org/. Therefore, per
WP:COMMONNAME we should move this article to
Diocese of West Yorkshire & The Dales (currently a redirect) and keep the present and official name as a redirect.
Nthep (
talk)
21:19, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
I would strongly suggest that the page is moved from 'Anglican Diocese of Leeds' to 'Diocese of West Yorkshire and the Dales'. Although through parts of its nascent phase it may have been named Leeds, many legal entities have the power to rename themselves, such as local authorities whom a statutory instrument may give a particular name to a particular body but until its legal genesis (i.e. before it officially comes into existence) or indeed some time afterwards might give that body the power to amend its name to suit its own identity or mission. One recent example is the Combined authority for the Liverpool area: http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/merseyside-super-council-called-halton-6719391 which was what the name given: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/865/contents/made but the authorities involved renamed it: http://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/11117617._Super_council__will_take_Liverpool_name/?ref=var_0 and wikipedia as a consequence use the page title of this new name not the original name, although mention is made of this name: Liverpool City Region Combined Authority If the church authorities are happy with 'West Yorskhire and the Dales' and this is used on respectable media outlets such as mainstream newspapers and the bbc , I think it would be appropriate that Wikipedia also adopt this line: http://www.wyadtransformation.org The fact that there are two different standards on wikipedia firstly doesn't shine a good light for consistency. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.197.121.88 ( talk) 14:49, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
I believe the correct heading should be the 'Diocese of West Yorkshire and the Dales'. http://www.leeds.anglican.org/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.19.169 ( talk) 22:46, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Anglican Diocese of Leeds → Diocese of West Yorkshire & the Dales – The diocese refers to itself as the Diocese of West Yorkshire & the Dales, so does the BBC and Synod. It is the Diocese of West Yorkshire & the Dales headed by the Bishop of Leeds. Reliable verifiable sources call it the Diocese of West Yorkshire & the Dales. Furthermore, they only call it the Diocese of West Yorkshire & the Dales. There are no references to a Diocese of Leeds on the CofE's own site. In fact the site links to "westyorkshiredales.anglican.org". It is the official name, the common name used by reliable sources and the name used by neutral organisations (not in the the CofE), such as the BBC. Every time I would search for 'Diocese of Leeds' on British news sites (such as the Times, Telegraph and Guardian, I kept coming up with the Roman Catholic Diocese of Leeds. --Relisted. EdJohnston ( talk) 18:12, 20 July 2014 (UTC) Pjposullivan ( talk) 20:17, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
I think the point is that nobody was looking for reliable sources at the time - they just rather hurriedly said, 'Oh, it's been nicknamed the Diocese of West Yorkshire and the Dales, let's go with that' without pausing to think of what they were saying. I agree the C of E have made a rod for their own backs, but at the same time, there were these sources that could have been used to give some clarity:
Church of England press release: https://www.churchofengland.org/media-centre/news/2013/07/synod-approves-new-diocese-of-leeds-for-west-yorkshire-and-the-dales.aspx Archbishop of York's announcement: http://www.archbishopofyork.org/articles.php/3072/first-new-diocese-for-more-than-85-years-will-be-created-on-easter-day Announcement of appointment of new bishop: http://www.anglicannews.org/news/2014/02/first-bishop-of-leeds,-in-west-yorkshire-and-the-dales-named.aspx
Note that in all of them, although it refers colloquially to 'the Diocese of West Yorkshire and the Dales,' the official name of the diocese is given as the Diocese of Leeds. I am not recommending the article be completely renamed, but the sidebar at the very least should be changed. So, for example, there is an article on 'Mahatma' Gandhi because that's what everyone calls him, but the article makes it clear his name was actually Mohandas Gandhi. I would suggest something similar should be attempted here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.173.138.0 ( talk) 14:49, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
You would say wrong, however, because legally all dioceses in England are named after the seat of the Bishop. Therefore it is officially the Diocese of Leeds, and that is that. (Sodor and Man is not in England, before you query that.) The official sources above are therefore valid. However, it is known by its common name for two very good reasons (1) to avoid confusion with the Catholic Diocese of Leeds and (2) to allow for the fact that uniquely among all dioceses of the Church of England, it does not have a Cathedral in the See. I have therefore changed the first sentence to reflect that. The real irony, to my mind, is the colossal fuss that was made about not calling it the diocese of Wakefield if all they do is hide the official name anyway. 81.135.62.222 ( talk) 11:01, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
The Diocese has resolved to change its common name to "Diocese of Leeds", to match the legal name - http://www.westyorkshiredales.anglican.org/content/diocese-be-known-%E2%80%98diocese-leeds%E2%80%99 . According to their website the change will be made in July, at which point we should move and update this page. TSP ( talk) 21:56, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Anglican Diocese of Leeds. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:37, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure where to discuss this best generically (should probably be Wikipedia:WikiProject Anglicanism but from previous experience that's basically dead).
User:Mark J added a list of every church in a couple of deaneries to this page (presumably intending to add the others later), with external links to church or parish web pages and a list of their current clergy.
I removed this, as in my view is this isn't appropriate for Wikipedia - Wikipedia is not a directory. The clergy names in particular, which amount to more or less a complete staff directory for the organisation, seem to give a huge updating load. The Diocese of Leeds has over 450 clergy - even assuming they stay in post for an average 8 years (which I suspect is a significant overestimate given curates are included), that's still more than one change a week; and if it's outdated it's worse than useless. This seems to me to be information that should be on the Diocesan website or on A Church Near You, not Wikipedia. (Summary statistics and notable churches are fine.)
I now see, though, that this seems to be part of a project to add this data across all dioceses. I'm not sure where is the best place to discuss this? TSP ( talk) 15:44, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
@ Mark J: One additional slightly separate question (so breaking this out of the main thread of conversation above) - I noticed you'd done Sheffield, so took a look at my old parish, Sheffield Manor. That appears on your list as "Sheffield Manor (St Swithun)". The Manor parish has three churches, which as far as I know are formally equal, but if any was to be considered the 'lead' church, I'd have thought it would be St Aidan's - I was wondering how you determined what name to use? TSP ( talk) 11:29, 7 September 2018 (UTC)