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Oppose per WP common style. I see a different consistency praxis on WP, which says that we put conflicting parties in alphabetical order. Consider not only the examples in OP, but also
Israeli鈥揚alestinian conflict and
Canada鈥揢nited States border.
Gaioa (
talk) 11:25, 13 September 2017 (UTC)reply
SupportAnglican鈥揅atholic dialogue. This keeps alphabetical order while removing the increasingly deprecated "Roman" phrasing per consistency with
Catholic Church and many sub articles.--
C煤chullaint/
c 19:28, 18 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Support Anglican-Catholic dialogue, per above, or Anglican-Catholic relations as it allows the article to be more generic.VRtalk 15:58, 22 April 2023 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Anglican鈥揅atholic dialogue title
Now that the article has been renamed
Anglican鈥揅atholic dialogue, the text needs to match. The "Roman" verbiage is increasingly deprecated on Wikipedia and serves no real purpose here - no one is confused by what "Catholic" refers to in this context. It's also consistent with the main
Catholic Church article and many of its other sub-articles.--
C煤chullaint/
c 15:18, 25 September 2017 (UTC)reply
It's a convenient shorthand, but are you aware that the Anglican church is still a catholic church? This isn't helped by WP having terms like
catholicism as a redirect to the article on the Roman Catholic church.
It's a fine distinction. But in an article on this distinction, it matters.
Andy Dingley (
talk) 15:34, 25 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Well aware, thanks, but it's irrelevant. Whether something is technically a "catholic church" has no bearing on the way terms are used in the real world. It's clear what "Catholic" and especially "Catholic Church" mean in this context and no one is likely to be confused.--
C煤chullaint/
c 15:44, 25 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Yes there is the possibility for confusion. The isn't a word limit to articles: nothing is lost by using Roman Catholic (which is standard for British English) and clarification is gained. If this was an article about French-American relations, and "the President" was used to who would it be referring? Roman is not a bad word, it has no negative connotations, it is simply descriptive. While the Roman Catholic Church may claim to be THE Catholic Church, the are other churches and traditions that use it to. When an article concerns two (or more) of these claimants it simply makes sense to use the longer form of Roman Catholic when talking about the Roman Catholic Church.
Gaia Octavia AgrippaTalk 16:21, 25 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Indeed, the common name for the Roman Catholic church in British English is the Roman Catholic Church. The examples you have given are specifically about the RCC. This is an article about two churches, therefore there should be an effort to distinguish between them. To continue my analogy from earlier, and in
President of the United States we know who "the president" refers to so there is no need for clarification. I'm guessing from your userpage that you are American; assumedly in the US there is no other church the Catholic Church could refer to, but in the UK there is. It is not an offensive description to the best of my knowledge (are you offended by it?), it's a disambiguating term that is regularly used in the UK and so should be used in this article and every British English article where there may be confusion.
Gaia Octavia AgrippaTalk 21:40, 25 September 2017 (UTC)reply
It's a matter of what's being disambiguated. "Anglican-Catholic dialogue" pretty clearly refers to the Anglican and Catholic churches. Perhaps "Roman" could be used in some later passages (not in the introductory sentence) where there might be confusion with
Anglo-Catholicism or similar. But no one, in the UK or elsewhere, sees the phrase "Catholic Church" and thinks of the Anglican Church.--
C煤chullaint/
c 01:21, 26 September 2017 (UTC)reply
You've had two people (Brits) point out there could be confusion. Another issue is that there are many Anglo-Catholics who use Anglican Catholic, so there IS confusion in the article name. For the moment, as you suggested here, I'm going to go through and add Roman to the appropriate places (except the lead, so that it reflects the (possibly confusing) article title).
Gaia Octavia AgrippaTalk 19:38, 26 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Actually, scrap that. Given that "International Anglican-Roman Catholic Commission for Unity and Mission" and "Anglican鈥揜oman Catholic International Commission" are official names, there is no reason to use the shortened "Catholic Church" here. Even the officaio website is titled "
Anglican-Roman Catholic Dialogue"!
Gaia Octavia AgrippaTalk 19:53, 26 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Requested move 26 September 2017
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: movedDrStrausstalk 21:14, 11 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Support. This is an example of a circumstance when even the (Roman) Catholic Church accepts that it needs to use "Roman", as per the names of the bodies listed above, for disambiguation or avoiding offence; because "Catholic" is also used as a self-descriptor by Anglican churches. If that church itself can see the need for the disambiguating term, it seems obvious that we should do the same.
TSP (
talk) 20:24, 26 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose - (changed to Neutral, see below) - I'm British, and there is no confusion about this name. The primary topic for "Catholic Church", particularly as the term is used in the UK, is the Roman Catholic Church, and as the Wikipedia article is already at
Catholic Church, we maintain consistency by not including the word "Roman" in subarticles like this one. As a procedural note, opening a new RM to reverse one which was closed just two weeks ago is not usually best practice. It would have been better to request a relisting of the above RM, since it was quite poorly attended. But since we're here now, we may as well see this one to its conclusion. 聽鈥斅
Amakuru (
talk) 10:46, 27 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Ah - I didn't know that was something that could be requested either, or would have done so earlier. (Frustratingly, that would by my count have led to an entirely different result.)
TSP (
talk) 12:11, 4 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment - pinging
Gaioa,
Andy Dingley and
Cuchullain, who participated in the previous RM and discussion on this topic, and have not yet commented here. Just so they're aware of the new RM. Thanks 聽鈥斅
Amakuru (
talk) 10:46, 27 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose per the last RM of 2 weeks ago. Consistency with the reliable sources and the main articles (
Catholic Church,
Catholic Church in the United Kingdom, etc.) is important, and the "Roman" use is increasingly deprecated. And frankly, I'm not seeing any disambiguation issue that would resolve. I have a hard time believing that any readers would be misled to thinking that the phrase "Anglican鈥揅atholic dialogue" refers to anything but this subject.--
C煤chullaint/
c 13:41, 27 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Support I appreciate
Amakuru's well-reasoned point about the usage of Catholic Church in the UK (it's the common name there, and virtually all RMs of late agree on that point on all national varieties of English.) The question for me is rather one of precision. The existence of Anglo-Catholics within the global Anglican Communion and the fact that the term actually might be more in vogue outside the U.K. as a form of self-identification should weigh in our minds on this RM. In this case, I think Roman serves a valid purpose and aligns with the name of the official organ.
TonyBallioni (
talk) 12:47, 4 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Very Strong Support: I think this an obvious rename. The article should reflect the organizations involved, such as the Anglican鈥Roman Catholic International Commission. Roman Catholic also naturally disambiguate among the parties to the dialog, such as the Anglo-Catholics, who are participants/observers on the Anglican side, but not the (Roman) Catholic side. 鈥
Zfish118鈰
talk 19:48, 4 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Addenda: WP:Consistency is a poor rational for this move, as at least Catholic-Lutheran dialog was only moved in August 2017 based on a similar poorly attended moved discussion: (see:
Talk:Catholic鈥揕utheran_dialogue#Requested_move_8_August_2017). The Lutheran dialog has similar issues, as both side refer to the "Roman Catholic Church" (
"Catholic/Vatican",
"Lutheran"). If the Lutheran move discussion is reopened, I would support its reversion as well. 鈥
Zfish118鈰
talk 15:32, 5 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Support per
User:Zfish118. Since the previous RM was so poorly attended (and probably should have been relisted) if there is no consensus in this discussion the title should default to the old title.
StAnselm (
talk) 20:42, 4 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Support. This is a necessary disambiguation. It does not matter one whit whether the average British person finds it ambiguous, since WP isn't written with just them in mind. But the more
WP:PRECISE name better fits actual British usage better, matches the proper names at issue, and clarfies that this isn't about Anglo-Catholicism, etc. These confusions do not apply to, e.g.
Catholic鈥揕utheran dialogue. WP:CONSISTENCY and WP:CONCISE are the bottom-rung
WP:CRITERIA, and only apply after precision, recognizability, and naturalness are satisfied. 鈥夆斺
SMcCandlish鈽垄鈥>蕦獗芬岽獗蕦<鈥 21:25, 6 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment. I would call for prudence here. The discussion was close to confirming the
WP:Consensus established in the previous move request before multiple users ostensibly were brought here from
Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Catholic Church), possibly bordering
Wikipedia:Canvassing. The "
Roman Catholic (term)" qualifier stems from an era of hostility, as has been argued throughout the years with final name set for the article
Catholic Church. The article
Anglican鈥揜oman Catholic International Commission is called as such and none here argues that to change. However, arguing that the latter sole article should be the prevailing reference for
WP:Consistency is shaky, when all other generic articles pertaining to the Catholic Church employ "Catholic" while ommitting the qualifier "Roman". Although there has been instances when Anglicans have made claims to being "Catholic", this was only notably insisted on in the 19th century - many more, however, both inside and outside of the
Church of England and the
Anglican Communion, have asserted that they are Protestants. There are several branches of Anglicanism, including the
Personal Ordinariate, who are part of the
Catholic Church. Why don't we see above individuals arguing to disambiguate
Anglican, both that article per se as well as the adjective indicated in this article title, for consistency? Pushing for one but not the other arguably borders
WP:POINT. Now,
WP:POV complains have been exchanged
ad nauseam in lots of talk page archives regarding the
Catholic Church, something I just recently made a thourough research on. I encourage anyone here to consider that background. "Roman Catholic" objections may be summarised such as in
Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Catholic_Church)#Overview_of_recurrents_viewpoints_throughout_talk_pages. In any case, inviting a number of people here commiting to
WP:Consistency in sole reference to the one article
Anglican鈥揜oman Catholic International Commission, has made this discussion problematic. I would argue to process with caution, possibly including more third opinions.
Chicbyaccident (
talk) 14:53, 8 October 2017 (UTC)reply
You appear to be arguing that, if we were take this line of argument,
Anglicanism would need to be a page about all the different churches that call themselves Anglican, not just the
Anglican Communion?
Uh... it is! Multiple churches call themselves Anglican; so the
Anglicanism page is about all of them, even though the
Anglican Communion is by far the largest; whereas
Catholicism, is a redirect to
Catholic Church. You seem to be arguing that such a disparity would be unreasonable? If you want to change
Catholicism back to a page describing all the churches that call themselves Catholic, as it until recently was.... don't let me stop you.
The
Anglicanism page even mentions the Personal Ordinariates, even though they don't call themselves Anglican (you tried to add that to the Anglicanism page, and no-one there agreed, because of the many, many sources in which they clearly say they are not Anglican). Whereas Anglican churches most certainly call themselves Catholic - it isn't something that only happened in the 19th century; it is on the Church of England website right now
[1], and in the names of modern organisations like the
Society of Catholic Priests and
Affirming Catholicism.
As to your more relevant points, use of "Roman Catholic" by the Vatican in ecumenical contexts is vastly wider than the name of ARCIC - the Lutheran-Roman Catholic Commission on Unity; the Joint Working Group between the Roman Catholic Church and the World Council of Churches; the International Roman Catholic-Old Catholic Dialogue Commission; the Evangelical - Roman Catholic Dialogue on Mission.
Which is the important distinction here. Wikipedia does not have to use the same term in every context. In internal contexts, 'Catholic' may generally be reasonably clear, unambiguous, and inoffensive. But in certain ecumenical contexts, the Church itself apparently accepts that, to avoid both ambiguity and offence, Roman Catholic is an acceptable and preferable term; as do the majority of users in this RFC (whether or not brought by a post which, thankfully, fulfilled none of the criteria of
WP:CANVAS).
This terminology was, accordingly, at one point used on Wikipedia in a reasonably wide range of places related to Roman Catholic relations with other churches. These have decreased lately, often, as in the previous RFC here, as a result of discussions with barely a handful of people involved. Now, a wider audience seems to be disagreeing with it in this particular case. If you think it is odd that the terminology be used here and in so few other places, perhaps decisions should be revisited in those other places, rather than editors not being free to make that decision here....
TSP (
talk) 00:29, 9 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Again, none is asking to change the name of the article
Anglican鈥揜oman Catholic International Commission, but yet again, that is another article. Now, if we limit the discussion to the subject in question, I am asking for more sound arguments for invoking an exceptionate
WP:Article name singular convention in this case.
WP:Consensus is not only about quantity of supporters, but also strength in arguments, per
Wikipedia:NOTDEMOCRACY.
All these steps make for an advisory chain that can hardly be taken into account even on the most sympathetic terms as an official endorsement of the Holy See for "Roman Catholic Church" as name here or elsewhere. Mind the background with the general discussion and
WP:Consensus on self-designation matters as a whole throughout Wikipedia's related talk pages. This clarification applies even if this article solely would have pertained to the
Catholic Church and the
Anglican Communion only, which in any case it demonstratively does not. Yes, background research in talk pages makes clear your opposition througout the years to the current article name of
Catholic Church, but that doesn't really make your point stronger here. No, "Wikipedia does not have to use the same term in every context", but advocacy for exceptions against
WP:Consistency need prevailing arguments for that.
To add to this, there is the problem of
Latin Church#Name, see
Roman Catholic Church (disambiguation), which indicate that some of the Latin Church's over 1 billion members (we don't know how many) perceive "Roman Catholic Church" as an alternate designation for their individual particular church sui iuris, and not the Catholic Church as a whole. The Latin Church is neither the sole counterparty in this subject.
All in all, proposed "Roman Catholic" in this case 1) confusingly follows misplaced association to the
Anglican鈥揜oman Catholic International Commission, 2) even if that association would be rock hard, invokes its nomenclature in a disputed way, 3) is against
WP:Consistency on equivalent generic articles, 4) risks creating more confusion and ambiguity than "Catholic".
Chicbyaccident (
talk) 06:03, 9 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Support. Current title is confusing and unrecognisable. No better suggestion has been made for a new title. This is a case where the addition of Roman is particularly important; If we need to make this consistent with other titles then we should add Roman to them all, but that rather seems to be the tail wagging the dog to me.
Andrewa (
talk) 16:28, 10 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Why is it confusing and unrecognisable? The "Roman Catholic" issue is settled, most notably at
Talk:Catholic Church/Archive 30#Mediation Outcome and
Talk:Catholic_Church/Archive_34#Requested_Move, with various other subpages renamed to match - most recently at
Talk:Catholic Church/Archive 55#Requested move 2 July 2017. Common usage in the English world overwhelmingly does not require the use of "Roman", and it is generally understood in reliable sources that "Catholic" means "Roman Catholic". Saying that the Anglican church is also a "Catholic" church, while factually accurate, flies in the face of any real world common usage and can be ignored in this discussion.
WP:CONCISE and
WP:CONSISTENCY say that we retain this page where it is. 聽鈥斅
Amakuru (
talk) 17:04, 10 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Your first link says "Roman Catholic Church" is used primarily for communications with other churches" which fits this context. This article should be moved back.
Jonathunder (
talk) 17:16, 10 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Hardly valid argument for derivation from
WP:Consistency: Wikipedia is not a platform for communication between denominations, nor is that the basis of its article naming conventions, as pointed out above by
Amakuru聽(
talk聽路contribs). There has been lengthy talk page discussions throughout the years about this matter. I still don't see any sound arguments here for exceptionate treating of this article name, such as "Protestant Anglican-Roman Catholic" or any such exceptionate wording, disapproved per
WP:Point.
WP:I don't like it is not on the money here.
Chicbyaccident (
talk) 18:03, 10 October 2017 (UTC)reply
@
Chicbyaccident: you have been citing
WP:POINT an awful lot lately (I see it is now in the introduction to
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Catholic Church) also, accompanying the assertion that Anglicanism is a fringe belief). Given that
WP:AGF is a core principle of Wikipedia, and citing WP:POINT explicitly accuses other editors of acting in bad faith, could I ask you to stop it unless you have some very good reasoning to back it up?
TSP (
talk) 20:43, 10 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Do I value yours and any other users' positive contributions?
Yes. With all due respect for that concern generally, I merely ask for more valid grounds for
WP:Article name than invoking sensitivity in ecumenical relations in a Wikipedia article. No less so when that sensitivity invocation is due to refuse the other counterpart its otherwise consistent grounds of article naming in accordance with its accepted self-designation. It is this incoherence in the argument that has tended to be refuted along
WP:Point and
WP:Fringe lines throughout the years. Nothing else. Thanks for bothering to address the concern for more resiliant arguments!
Chicbyaccident (
talk) 11:08, 11 October 2017 (UTC)reply
I don't recall anyone ever invoking either WP:POINT or WP:FRINGE in any of these discussions before you did; and I don't think either is relevant.
You mentioned
WP:POINT above when you said: "Why don't we see above individuals arguing to disambiguate
Anglican, both that article per se as well as the adjective indicated in this article title, for consistency? Pushing for one but not the other arguably borders
WP:POINT." As I explained,
Anglicanis already an article about all bodies that describe themselves as Anglican; unlike
Catholicism, which is not an article about all bodies that describe themselves as Catholic. So your argument seems to be simply untrue, and if anything, would seem to indict you rather than anyone else. You didn't seem to address this in your reply when I pointed this out, so I still don't at all understand what you mean by citing WP:POINT. You have talked about "Protestant Anglican", so I guess this might be a continuation of the argument that the Personal Ordinariates assert that they are Anglican? As I said on
Talk:Anglicanism, they simply don't assert that - they do not call themselves Anglican and are very clear that they are not Anglican - so there is no argument to be made there.
Coming to
WP:FRINGE, that policy is about where there is one view that is generally agreed by experts in the field, and another that departs from it significantly and is accepted by very few people. Generally it's only really relevant in science - that the earth is roughly spherical and orbits the sun is mainstream, that the earth is flat or is orbited by the sun is fringe. It isn't generally applicable to naming conventions, and doesn't apply well to religious topics and other areas of essential unprovability. The vast majority of people are not Hindus, say; but we don't apply WP:FRINGE to say "Vishnu is an alleged god that most people think doesn't exist", or make most of the Vishnu article be about Christian views of Vishnu because there are more Christians than Hindus. Yes, some faith bodies are bigger than others; but I think to read Wikipedia policy in a way that says that the largest religions' beliefs should therefore be treated as 'mainstream' and other religions' beliefs are 'fringe' is severely problematic. WP:FRINGE is not a core Wikipedia policy;
WP:NPOV is.
Stick to WP:COMMONNAME, which is the basis on which
Catholic Church was moved, and has served it well. With WP:FRINGE and WP:POINT, you are stretching the limits of Wikipedia policy and of acceptable politeness to other editors.
TSP (
talk) 12:48, 11 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Good faith circumfer emphasising a multitude of perspectives, and I don't have any reason but to assume your good faith. I'm just asking for more steady arguments than sensitivity to
arbitrary individual positions in nisched affairs external to
WP:Article name policies. Even more so for
arguments boiling down to
WP:I don't like it, since none of the "Roman Catholic" proponents here can be mistaken of what "Catholic" counterpart refers to here, despite contrary assertions. I recall
WP:POINT concerns about such reasoning in previous related discussions, although I may be mistaken (edit: for example
here). As for
WP:FRINGE, the comparison mirrored a summary of equivalent discussions on article naming in
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints), neither referring to anything but grounds for
WP:Article name. I don't intend any offense and would be open though should you have better ways to summarise how the arguments of you and your proponents have been refuted in previous lengthy discussions throughout the years in
Talk:Catholic Church and beyond. Still, if sensitivity to arbitrary positions of individuals in ecumenical endeavours external to the grounds of
WP:Article name relative to one counterpart is exceptionately accepted here, I am afraid this result will be contested in time, and for good reasons. I do recognise that full satisfaction for both sides of the argument may be hard to be accomplish. Yet, exceptionately overriding self-designation consistency for the other counterpart on grounds of sensitivity for the first one, what does that make out of the validity of the sensitivity argument per se, please?
I have tried to propose a few arguments whereas I'm afraid you are starting to retreat to counter these under the cover of
WP:AGFloaded question. Would you mind if we ask for instance
SMcCandlish聽(
talk聽路contribs) and other experienced users for third part evaluation of our arguments? This user has initially indicated sympathy for your stance, but I am confident he is also able to help us to seek better mutual understanding.
Chicbyaccident (
talk) 14:18, 11 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Given the valid point made by
Jonathunder about the communications with other churches, I'll withdraw my oppose above. I'll stay neutral for now, because I'm not really convinced that it's necessary to spell out the "Roman Catholic" in full, but the proposal looks to have consensus now anyway, and it does to some extent follow common usage. Also agree with
TSP about the invoking of
WP:POINT... "disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point" is an accusation of deliberate malicious behaviour on the part of Wikipedians, and I think we're very far from anything like that, this has been a friendly debate so far. Thanks 聽鈥斅
Amakuru (
talk) 09:15, 11 October 2017 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Category
I see that one of the minority voices in the discussion above,
User:Chicbyaccident, has just created
Category:Catholic鈥揂nglican ecumenism, with this as one of only two articles in it; when we have surely just spent two weeks deciding that, in a basically identical context, "Roman Catholic" is more appropriate (I'm not that fussed about the order)? Do we need to go through all this again?
TSP (
talk) 14:35, 13 October 2017 (UTC)reply
One could quote from
Emerson's essay Self-Reliance or simply acknowledge the complexity of different cases.
Jonathunder (
talk) 02:35, 30 November 2017 (UTC)reply
Requested move 12 April 2023
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requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Oppose per WP common style. I see a different consistency praxis on WP, which says that we put conflicting parties in alphabetical order. Consider not only the examples in OP, but also
Israeli鈥揚alestinian conflict and
Canada鈥揢nited States border.
Gaioa (
talk) 11:25, 13 September 2017 (UTC)reply
SupportAnglican鈥揅atholic dialogue. This keeps alphabetical order while removing the increasingly deprecated "Roman" phrasing per consistency with
Catholic Church and many sub articles.--
C煤chullaint/
c 19:28, 18 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Support Anglican-Catholic dialogue, per above, or Anglican-Catholic relations as it allows the article to be more generic.VRtalk 15:58, 22 April 2023 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Anglican鈥揅atholic dialogue title
Now that the article has been renamed
Anglican鈥揅atholic dialogue, the text needs to match. The "Roman" verbiage is increasingly deprecated on Wikipedia and serves no real purpose here - no one is confused by what "Catholic" refers to in this context. It's also consistent with the main
Catholic Church article and many of its other sub-articles.--
C煤chullaint/
c 15:18, 25 September 2017 (UTC)reply
It's a convenient shorthand, but are you aware that the Anglican church is still a catholic church? This isn't helped by WP having terms like
catholicism as a redirect to the article on the Roman Catholic church.
It's a fine distinction. But in an article on this distinction, it matters.
Andy Dingley (
talk) 15:34, 25 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Well aware, thanks, but it's irrelevant. Whether something is technically a "catholic church" has no bearing on the way terms are used in the real world. It's clear what "Catholic" and especially "Catholic Church" mean in this context and no one is likely to be confused.--
C煤chullaint/
c 15:44, 25 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Yes there is the possibility for confusion. The isn't a word limit to articles: nothing is lost by using Roman Catholic (which is standard for British English) and clarification is gained. If this was an article about French-American relations, and "the President" was used to who would it be referring? Roman is not a bad word, it has no negative connotations, it is simply descriptive. While the Roman Catholic Church may claim to be THE Catholic Church, the are other churches and traditions that use it to. When an article concerns two (or more) of these claimants it simply makes sense to use the longer form of Roman Catholic when talking about the Roman Catholic Church.
Gaia Octavia AgrippaTalk 16:21, 25 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Indeed, the common name for the Roman Catholic church in British English is the Roman Catholic Church. The examples you have given are specifically about the RCC. This is an article about two churches, therefore there should be an effort to distinguish between them. To continue my analogy from earlier, and in
President of the United States we know who "the president" refers to so there is no need for clarification. I'm guessing from your userpage that you are American; assumedly in the US there is no other church the Catholic Church could refer to, but in the UK there is. It is not an offensive description to the best of my knowledge (are you offended by it?), it's a disambiguating term that is regularly used in the UK and so should be used in this article and every British English article where there may be confusion.
Gaia Octavia AgrippaTalk 21:40, 25 September 2017 (UTC)reply
It's a matter of what's being disambiguated. "Anglican-Catholic dialogue" pretty clearly refers to the Anglican and Catholic churches. Perhaps "Roman" could be used in some later passages (not in the introductory sentence) where there might be confusion with
Anglo-Catholicism or similar. But no one, in the UK or elsewhere, sees the phrase "Catholic Church" and thinks of the Anglican Church.--
C煤chullaint/
c 01:21, 26 September 2017 (UTC)reply
You've had two people (Brits) point out there could be confusion. Another issue is that there are many Anglo-Catholics who use Anglican Catholic, so there IS confusion in the article name. For the moment, as you suggested here, I'm going to go through and add Roman to the appropriate places (except the lead, so that it reflects the (possibly confusing) article title).
Gaia Octavia AgrippaTalk 19:38, 26 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Actually, scrap that. Given that "International Anglican-Roman Catholic Commission for Unity and Mission" and "Anglican鈥揜oman Catholic International Commission" are official names, there is no reason to use the shortened "Catholic Church" here. Even the officaio website is titled "
Anglican-Roman Catholic Dialogue"!
Gaia Octavia AgrippaTalk 19:53, 26 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Requested move 26 September 2017
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: movedDrStrausstalk 21:14, 11 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Support. This is an example of a circumstance when even the (Roman) Catholic Church accepts that it needs to use "Roman", as per the names of the bodies listed above, for disambiguation or avoiding offence; because "Catholic" is also used as a self-descriptor by Anglican churches. If that church itself can see the need for the disambiguating term, it seems obvious that we should do the same.
TSP (
talk) 20:24, 26 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose - (changed to Neutral, see below) - I'm British, and there is no confusion about this name. The primary topic for "Catholic Church", particularly as the term is used in the UK, is the Roman Catholic Church, and as the Wikipedia article is already at
Catholic Church, we maintain consistency by not including the word "Roman" in subarticles like this one. As a procedural note, opening a new RM to reverse one which was closed just two weeks ago is not usually best practice. It would have been better to request a relisting of the above RM, since it was quite poorly attended. But since we're here now, we may as well see this one to its conclusion. 聽鈥斅
Amakuru (
talk) 10:46, 27 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Ah - I didn't know that was something that could be requested either, or would have done so earlier. (Frustratingly, that would by my count have led to an entirely different result.)
TSP (
talk) 12:11, 4 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment - pinging
Gaioa,
Andy Dingley and
Cuchullain, who participated in the previous RM and discussion on this topic, and have not yet commented here. Just so they're aware of the new RM. Thanks 聽鈥斅
Amakuru (
talk) 10:46, 27 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose per the last RM of 2 weeks ago. Consistency with the reliable sources and the main articles (
Catholic Church,
Catholic Church in the United Kingdom, etc.) is important, and the "Roman" use is increasingly deprecated. And frankly, I'm not seeing any disambiguation issue that would resolve. I have a hard time believing that any readers would be misled to thinking that the phrase "Anglican鈥揅atholic dialogue" refers to anything but this subject.--
C煤chullaint/
c 13:41, 27 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Support I appreciate
Amakuru's well-reasoned point about the usage of Catholic Church in the UK (it's the common name there, and virtually all RMs of late agree on that point on all national varieties of English.) The question for me is rather one of precision. The existence of Anglo-Catholics within the global Anglican Communion and the fact that the term actually might be more in vogue outside the U.K. as a form of self-identification should weigh in our minds on this RM. In this case, I think Roman serves a valid purpose and aligns with the name of the official organ.
TonyBallioni (
talk) 12:47, 4 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Very Strong Support: I think this an obvious rename. The article should reflect the organizations involved, such as the Anglican鈥Roman Catholic International Commission. Roman Catholic also naturally disambiguate among the parties to the dialog, such as the Anglo-Catholics, who are participants/observers on the Anglican side, but not the (Roman) Catholic side. 鈥
Zfish118鈰
talk 19:48, 4 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Addenda: WP:Consistency is a poor rational for this move, as at least Catholic-Lutheran dialog was only moved in August 2017 based on a similar poorly attended moved discussion: (see:
Talk:Catholic鈥揕utheran_dialogue#Requested_move_8_August_2017). The Lutheran dialog has similar issues, as both side refer to the "Roman Catholic Church" (
"Catholic/Vatican",
"Lutheran"). If the Lutheran move discussion is reopened, I would support its reversion as well. 鈥
Zfish118鈰
talk 15:32, 5 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Support per
User:Zfish118. Since the previous RM was so poorly attended (and probably should have been relisted) if there is no consensus in this discussion the title should default to the old title.
StAnselm (
talk) 20:42, 4 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Support. This is a necessary disambiguation. It does not matter one whit whether the average British person finds it ambiguous, since WP isn't written with just them in mind. But the more
WP:PRECISE name better fits actual British usage better, matches the proper names at issue, and clarfies that this isn't about Anglo-Catholicism, etc. These confusions do not apply to, e.g.
Catholic鈥揕utheran dialogue. WP:CONSISTENCY and WP:CONCISE are the bottom-rung
WP:CRITERIA, and only apply after precision, recognizability, and naturalness are satisfied. 鈥夆斺
SMcCandlish鈽垄鈥>蕦獗芬岽獗蕦<鈥 21:25, 6 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment. I would call for prudence here. The discussion was close to confirming the
WP:Consensus established in the previous move request before multiple users ostensibly were brought here from
Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Catholic Church), possibly bordering
Wikipedia:Canvassing. The "
Roman Catholic (term)" qualifier stems from an era of hostility, as has been argued throughout the years with final name set for the article
Catholic Church. The article
Anglican鈥揜oman Catholic International Commission is called as such and none here argues that to change. However, arguing that the latter sole article should be the prevailing reference for
WP:Consistency is shaky, when all other generic articles pertaining to the Catholic Church employ "Catholic" while ommitting the qualifier "Roman". Although there has been instances when Anglicans have made claims to being "Catholic", this was only notably insisted on in the 19th century - many more, however, both inside and outside of the
Church of England and the
Anglican Communion, have asserted that they are Protestants. There are several branches of Anglicanism, including the
Personal Ordinariate, who are part of the
Catholic Church. Why don't we see above individuals arguing to disambiguate
Anglican, both that article per se as well as the adjective indicated in this article title, for consistency? Pushing for one but not the other arguably borders
WP:POINT. Now,
WP:POV complains have been exchanged
ad nauseam in lots of talk page archives regarding the
Catholic Church, something I just recently made a thourough research on. I encourage anyone here to consider that background. "Roman Catholic" objections may be summarised such as in
Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Catholic_Church)#Overview_of_recurrents_viewpoints_throughout_talk_pages. In any case, inviting a number of people here commiting to
WP:Consistency in sole reference to the one article
Anglican鈥揜oman Catholic International Commission, has made this discussion problematic. I would argue to process with caution, possibly including more third opinions.
Chicbyaccident (
talk) 14:53, 8 October 2017 (UTC)reply
You appear to be arguing that, if we were take this line of argument,
Anglicanism would need to be a page about all the different churches that call themselves Anglican, not just the
Anglican Communion?
Uh... it is! Multiple churches call themselves Anglican; so the
Anglicanism page is about all of them, even though the
Anglican Communion is by far the largest; whereas
Catholicism, is a redirect to
Catholic Church. You seem to be arguing that such a disparity would be unreasonable? If you want to change
Catholicism back to a page describing all the churches that call themselves Catholic, as it until recently was.... don't let me stop you.
The
Anglicanism page even mentions the Personal Ordinariates, even though they don't call themselves Anglican (you tried to add that to the Anglicanism page, and no-one there agreed, because of the many, many sources in which they clearly say they are not Anglican). Whereas Anglican churches most certainly call themselves Catholic - it isn't something that only happened in the 19th century; it is on the Church of England website right now
[1], and in the names of modern organisations like the
Society of Catholic Priests and
Affirming Catholicism.
As to your more relevant points, use of "Roman Catholic" by the Vatican in ecumenical contexts is vastly wider than the name of ARCIC - the Lutheran-Roman Catholic Commission on Unity; the Joint Working Group between the Roman Catholic Church and the World Council of Churches; the International Roman Catholic-Old Catholic Dialogue Commission; the Evangelical - Roman Catholic Dialogue on Mission.
Which is the important distinction here. Wikipedia does not have to use the same term in every context. In internal contexts, 'Catholic' may generally be reasonably clear, unambiguous, and inoffensive. But in certain ecumenical contexts, the Church itself apparently accepts that, to avoid both ambiguity and offence, Roman Catholic is an acceptable and preferable term; as do the majority of users in this RFC (whether or not brought by a post which, thankfully, fulfilled none of the criteria of
WP:CANVAS).
This terminology was, accordingly, at one point used on Wikipedia in a reasonably wide range of places related to Roman Catholic relations with other churches. These have decreased lately, often, as in the previous RFC here, as a result of discussions with barely a handful of people involved. Now, a wider audience seems to be disagreeing with it in this particular case. If you think it is odd that the terminology be used here and in so few other places, perhaps decisions should be revisited in those other places, rather than editors not being free to make that decision here....
TSP (
talk) 00:29, 9 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Again, none is asking to change the name of the article
Anglican鈥揜oman Catholic International Commission, but yet again, that is another article. Now, if we limit the discussion to the subject in question, I am asking for more sound arguments for invoking an exceptionate
WP:Article name singular convention in this case.
WP:Consensus is not only about quantity of supporters, but also strength in arguments, per
Wikipedia:NOTDEMOCRACY.
All these steps make for an advisory chain that can hardly be taken into account even on the most sympathetic terms as an official endorsement of the Holy See for "Roman Catholic Church" as name here or elsewhere. Mind the background with the general discussion and
WP:Consensus on self-designation matters as a whole throughout Wikipedia's related talk pages. This clarification applies even if this article solely would have pertained to the
Catholic Church and the
Anglican Communion only, which in any case it demonstratively does not. Yes, background research in talk pages makes clear your opposition througout the years to the current article name of
Catholic Church, but that doesn't really make your point stronger here. No, "Wikipedia does not have to use the same term in every context", but advocacy for exceptions against
WP:Consistency need prevailing arguments for that.
To add to this, there is the problem of
Latin Church#Name, see
Roman Catholic Church (disambiguation), which indicate that some of the Latin Church's over 1 billion members (we don't know how many) perceive "Roman Catholic Church" as an alternate designation for their individual particular church sui iuris, and not the Catholic Church as a whole. The Latin Church is neither the sole counterparty in this subject.
All in all, proposed "Roman Catholic" in this case 1) confusingly follows misplaced association to the
Anglican鈥揜oman Catholic International Commission, 2) even if that association would be rock hard, invokes its nomenclature in a disputed way, 3) is against
WP:Consistency on equivalent generic articles, 4) risks creating more confusion and ambiguity than "Catholic".
Chicbyaccident (
talk) 06:03, 9 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Support. Current title is confusing and unrecognisable. No better suggestion has been made for a new title. This is a case where the addition of Roman is particularly important; If we need to make this consistent with other titles then we should add Roman to them all, but that rather seems to be the tail wagging the dog to me.
Andrewa (
talk) 16:28, 10 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Why is it confusing and unrecognisable? The "Roman Catholic" issue is settled, most notably at
Talk:Catholic Church/Archive 30#Mediation Outcome and
Talk:Catholic_Church/Archive_34#Requested_Move, with various other subpages renamed to match - most recently at
Talk:Catholic Church/Archive 55#Requested move 2 July 2017. Common usage in the English world overwhelmingly does not require the use of "Roman", and it is generally understood in reliable sources that "Catholic" means "Roman Catholic". Saying that the Anglican church is also a "Catholic" church, while factually accurate, flies in the face of any real world common usage and can be ignored in this discussion.
WP:CONCISE and
WP:CONSISTENCY say that we retain this page where it is. 聽鈥斅
Amakuru (
talk) 17:04, 10 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Your first link says "Roman Catholic Church" is used primarily for communications with other churches" which fits this context. This article should be moved back.
Jonathunder (
talk) 17:16, 10 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Hardly valid argument for derivation from
WP:Consistency: Wikipedia is not a platform for communication between denominations, nor is that the basis of its article naming conventions, as pointed out above by
Amakuru聽(
talk聽路contribs). There has been lengthy talk page discussions throughout the years about this matter. I still don't see any sound arguments here for exceptionate treating of this article name, such as "Protestant Anglican-Roman Catholic" or any such exceptionate wording, disapproved per
WP:Point.
WP:I don't like it is not on the money here.
Chicbyaccident (
talk) 18:03, 10 October 2017 (UTC)reply
@
Chicbyaccident: you have been citing
WP:POINT an awful lot lately (I see it is now in the introduction to
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Catholic Church) also, accompanying the assertion that Anglicanism is a fringe belief). Given that
WP:AGF is a core principle of Wikipedia, and citing WP:POINT explicitly accuses other editors of acting in bad faith, could I ask you to stop it unless you have some very good reasoning to back it up?
TSP (
talk) 20:43, 10 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Do I value yours and any other users' positive contributions?
Yes. With all due respect for that concern generally, I merely ask for more valid grounds for
WP:Article name than invoking sensitivity in ecumenical relations in a Wikipedia article. No less so when that sensitivity invocation is due to refuse the other counterpart its otherwise consistent grounds of article naming in accordance with its accepted self-designation. It is this incoherence in the argument that has tended to be refuted along
WP:Point and
WP:Fringe lines throughout the years. Nothing else. Thanks for bothering to address the concern for more resiliant arguments!
Chicbyaccident (
talk) 11:08, 11 October 2017 (UTC)reply
I don't recall anyone ever invoking either WP:POINT or WP:FRINGE in any of these discussions before you did; and I don't think either is relevant.
You mentioned
WP:POINT above when you said: "Why don't we see above individuals arguing to disambiguate
Anglican, both that article per se as well as the adjective indicated in this article title, for consistency? Pushing for one but not the other arguably borders
WP:POINT." As I explained,
Anglicanis already an article about all bodies that describe themselves as Anglican; unlike
Catholicism, which is not an article about all bodies that describe themselves as Catholic. So your argument seems to be simply untrue, and if anything, would seem to indict you rather than anyone else. You didn't seem to address this in your reply when I pointed this out, so I still don't at all understand what you mean by citing WP:POINT. You have talked about "Protestant Anglican", so I guess this might be a continuation of the argument that the Personal Ordinariates assert that they are Anglican? As I said on
Talk:Anglicanism, they simply don't assert that - they do not call themselves Anglican and are very clear that they are not Anglican - so there is no argument to be made there.
Coming to
WP:FRINGE, that policy is about where there is one view that is generally agreed by experts in the field, and another that departs from it significantly and is accepted by very few people. Generally it's only really relevant in science - that the earth is roughly spherical and orbits the sun is mainstream, that the earth is flat or is orbited by the sun is fringe. It isn't generally applicable to naming conventions, and doesn't apply well to religious topics and other areas of essential unprovability. The vast majority of people are not Hindus, say; but we don't apply WP:FRINGE to say "Vishnu is an alleged god that most people think doesn't exist", or make most of the Vishnu article be about Christian views of Vishnu because there are more Christians than Hindus. Yes, some faith bodies are bigger than others; but I think to read Wikipedia policy in a way that says that the largest religions' beliefs should therefore be treated as 'mainstream' and other religions' beliefs are 'fringe' is severely problematic. WP:FRINGE is not a core Wikipedia policy;
WP:NPOV is.
Stick to WP:COMMONNAME, which is the basis on which
Catholic Church was moved, and has served it well. With WP:FRINGE and WP:POINT, you are stretching the limits of Wikipedia policy and of acceptable politeness to other editors.
TSP (
talk) 12:48, 11 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Good faith circumfer emphasising a multitude of perspectives, and I don't have any reason but to assume your good faith. I'm just asking for more steady arguments than sensitivity to
arbitrary individual positions in nisched affairs external to
WP:Article name policies. Even more so for
arguments boiling down to
WP:I don't like it, since none of the "Roman Catholic" proponents here can be mistaken of what "Catholic" counterpart refers to here, despite contrary assertions. I recall
WP:POINT concerns about such reasoning in previous related discussions, although I may be mistaken (edit: for example
here). As for
WP:FRINGE, the comparison mirrored a summary of equivalent discussions on article naming in
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints), neither referring to anything but grounds for
WP:Article name. I don't intend any offense and would be open though should you have better ways to summarise how the arguments of you and your proponents have been refuted in previous lengthy discussions throughout the years in
Talk:Catholic Church and beyond. Still, if sensitivity to arbitrary positions of individuals in ecumenical endeavours external to the grounds of
WP:Article name relative to one counterpart is exceptionately accepted here, I am afraid this result will be contested in time, and for good reasons. I do recognise that full satisfaction for both sides of the argument may be hard to be accomplish. Yet, exceptionately overriding self-designation consistency for the other counterpart on grounds of sensitivity for the first one, what does that make out of the validity of the sensitivity argument per se, please?
I have tried to propose a few arguments whereas I'm afraid you are starting to retreat to counter these under the cover of
WP:AGFloaded question. Would you mind if we ask for instance
SMcCandlish聽(
talk聽路contribs) and other experienced users for third part evaluation of our arguments? This user has initially indicated sympathy for your stance, but I am confident he is also able to help us to seek better mutual understanding.
Chicbyaccident (
talk) 14:18, 11 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Given the valid point made by
Jonathunder about the communications with other churches, I'll withdraw my oppose above. I'll stay neutral for now, because I'm not really convinced that it's necessary to spell out the "Roman Catholic" in full, but the proposal looks to have consensus now anyway, and it does to some extent follow common usage. Also agree with
TSP about the invoking of
WP:POINT... "disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point" is an accusation of deliberate malicious behaviour on the part of Wikipedians, and I think we're very far from anything like that, this has been a friendly debate so far. Thanks 聽鈥斅
Amakuru (
talk) 09:15, 11 October 2017 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Category
I see that one of the minority voices in the discussion above,
User:Chicbyaccident, has just created
Category:Catholic鈥揂nglican ecumenism, with this as one of only two articles in it; when we have surely just spent two weeks deciding that, in a basically identical context, "Roman Catholic" is more appropriate (I'm not that fussed about the order)? Do we need to go through all this again?
TSP (
talk) 14:35, 13 October 2017 (UTC)reply
One could quote from
Emerson's essay Self-Reliance or simply acknowledge the complexity of different cases.
Jonathunder (
talk) 02:35, 30 November 2017 (UTC)reply
Requested move 12 April 2023
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.