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I happen to know, or at least have excellent evidence for believing, that rather late in his life Bevan enjoyed "the good things of life", eg wearing expensive clothes, and associating with old-fashioned noblemen, but I have no references for this. It seems to me an interesting, and to me attractive, facet of his character, and I wonder if anybody can document it? Sgd Seadowns ( talk) 12:33, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
I don't understand the reference to "David" Bevan. Is it an error, or was that his dad's name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.133.47.40 ( talk • contribs) 22:49, 4 March 2004
The article claims Bevan quoted a comment made by Marx in 1885. If somebody would like to explain how a corpse can stress the benefits of war, now would be the time to do so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.254.252 ( talk • contribs) 15:19, 6 June 2005
Do we have a picture? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.92.237.111 ( talk • contribs) 22:27, 10 December 2005
As I recall, Mosley attempted to form an independent political group in the aftermath of his resignation. It is true that Bevan was associated with that, but this group failed. When Mosley started to be influenced by Mussolini, Bevan clearly smelled a rat, and severed all contacts with him. Bevan was never a fascist. I will do some digging in Foot's biography. When I get a citation, I will change the entry. -- Train guard 17:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand why there are two identical articles, one called Nye and one called Aneurin Rathfelder 22:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to note that In Place of Fear is a book and not a collection of essays. Bevan frequently refers to it as a book, to other "chapters" and so forth. Andysoh 09:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Surely it should have its own page? (I'm not knowledgeable enough to create this though) Gilgamesh4 ( talk) 12:15, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I think this is an innacurate phrase to describe the current NHS in England (though may be true for Scotland, Wales, and/or Northern Ireland). I am put off getting medications because I can't afford the prescription fee, or the £125 for having a tooth drilled, and glasses are also not free. The sentence uses the present tense, and is not expressly placed in a historical context. I do not believe the phrase 'free at the point of need' has a specific common contemporary use; 'free' to me just means without charge, 'point-of-need' I think is also generally interpreted literally.
According to this prescription charges were introduced in 1952, and prompted the resignation of Aneurin Bevan. So, perhaps it's fair to say the implementation of the NHS failed his ideal.
I am new to editing wikipedia and the BRM cycle (though I've read over the tutorial and other pages today), please advise me of any mistakes I've made in attempting to resolve this disagreement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobius Greenwald ( talk • contribs) 12:48, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
A sizeable amount of healthcare in Briton, these days, is not free. The NHS page does not use the phrase 'free at the point-of-need' in an unqualified way, even though it is a great and succinct phrase, because it's not accurate. You mention the context of the time; the sentence implies this is specifically how the NHS works today. It would be fine if it was past tense. Otherwise it needs to be qualified, perhaps prefixed with 'designed to', 'mainly' or 'generally'.
I could probably compromise and say, as the main NHS page says, '[services] the vast majority of which are free at the point of use'. Although since 85% of Britains have to pay for prescriptions, I think it erroneous to say that the 'vast' majority of healthcare is free. The vast majority of cost is paid for, however I believe the majority of patients are outpatients and (in England) have to pay something.
'Free' should not be used in place of 'heavily subsidised'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobius Greenwald ( talk • contribs) 14:03, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Additionally: I know from personal experience, if you turn up at A&E you will always be treated. But if, as you say, you turn up to a doctors, you may not be. If you are in receiept of income based JSA, disability benefit, or a similar benefit then you will be, otherwise you must find the money. If you have no money, you can't get your prescription. It's not free. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobius Greenwald ( talk • contribs) 14:21, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
There's a need for historical perspective here. When it was set up it was a huge thing, it was free, it was a great blessing for millions of Britons. From what I remember there were some minor charges but I don't remember for what. This can be ascertained from reliable sources. In the past years there have been changes in the care offered by the NHS and attempts to privatize it. When it was set up it was essentially free, and the establishment of the NHS needs to be thought of in comparison to what existed at the time. So maybe a distinction is needed between the original purpose, mandate, and conditions of the NHS and what is happening now? Bevan fought very hard so far as I know to have a free NHS. Nathan43 ( talk) 14:46, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't read everything above. But I think on an entry about Aneurin Bevan the situation of the NHS as it was in his lifetime should be emphasized. It was an amazing success and he was vilified for it. It has been the envy of the world until recently. Nathan43 ( talk) 14:50, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
I agree. The NHS was a huge thing when it was set up, a blessing, and continues to be a (for the most part) a blessing. The magnitude of setting up the NHS should be emphasised in the introduction. Just, as you say, emphasising the historical perspective if the word 'free' is to be used. Perhaps the end of the intro could be changed from:
His most famous accomplishment came when, as Minister of Health in the post-war Attlee government, he spearheaded the establishment of the National Health Service, which provides medical care free at point-of-need to all Britons.
to:
His most famous accomplishment came when, as Minister of Health in the post-war Attlee government, he spearheaded the establishment of the National Health Service, in order to provide medical care free at the point-of-need to all Britons.
Any objections, improvements or alternatives? Tobius Greenwald ( talk) 22:20, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for everyone's time and input: Nathan43, Abhayakara, Danger!, and Snowded. It's just one sentence, but I think it's important. Tobius Greenwald ( talk) 22:00, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
British, surely. 'Welsh' is not (yet) a nationality in the sense that is clearly intended in the box. Is George Bush, for example, a 'Texan'? I think not! 131.111.88.9 ( talk) 15:09, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
The part-privatization of the NHS in 1951 was to pay for the cost of Britain's involvement in the Korean War. ( HymanFam ( talk) 19:25, 17 January 2015 (UTC))
I admire Bevan's contribution to the creation of the welfare state as much as the next man, but we should not self-censor here. Bevan's participation in the libel suit against The Spectator with Crossman and Phillips was no shining hour, but let's please treat our readers as adults and not try to whitewash the episode out of history. Nandt1 ( talk) 21:33, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the link that is helpful, the version I found did not have a chapter but it was obviously different from the yours. Helpful as it is I think it makes the point more strongly. Jenkins makes the point that you should now view Bevan through Crossman's diaries as they were enemies. Compounded by the fact that Jenkins himself was seen as Crossman's inheritor. He also makes the point that Bevan could hold his alcohol so the pejorative description might not have applied to him. Within the chapter Jenkins is saying that aspects of Bevan's later career were less glorious. That as an assertion may be notable. Something like "Jenkins asserts that the latter days of Bevan's career were less than glorious, citing the Spectator libel case and ......." The examples can be referenced. That is just about sustainable and I would support it. The current contested text shows no third party evidence that would justify more than a casual reference. I also took the liberty of putting your link into the text of your comment to make the page more readable. I hope that is OK ---- Snowded TALK 12:34, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Roy Jenkins argues that Bevan was one of the few political "stars" of the 20th Century, and with Churchill the last great politicians "never to adapt to television", great orators who needed an audience. However he also considers Bevans cynical support of Morrison against Gaitskell in 1955 and the Spectator Libel trial (where Bevan has been accused by Crossman of perjury) as the "two really despicable performances" of Bevan's life. I think the above is supported and more balanced. I think we probably need to note that Jenkins came from the opposing wing of the Labour Party and/or that his criticisms are disputed by Foot. Something along those lines is OK. But the extended and elaborate discussion taking one political perspective is not on. You might want to consider a sourced article on the libel trial that could be linked from the above. ---- Snowded TALK 07:21, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
If anybody is interested, the fullest account I've ever read of this disreputable incident is in Brian Brivati's 1999 biog of Arnold Goodman, solicitor to the rich and famous. The truth of the matter appears to be that it was Morgan Phillips, who notoriously could not hold his drink, who made a fool of himself. However Bevan, who resented press criticism which he had received in the past, saw it as a chance to score off the press (in the full knowledge that he was committing perjury). I do have some notes kicking around somewhere but I'm not making any promises as to when I'll ever get round to posting them. Paulturtle ( talk) 23:01, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 17:34, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
Aneurin Bevan is virtually unknown here in America, yet I am surprised his most famous quote, circa 1945, is nowhere to be found in either the article or the Talk page: "This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organising genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." I have not been able to find the context from which this quote came. Was Clement Attlee the organizing genius? Not much online, but perhaps a dusty biography on the shelf of some British library could put these ironic words into context. British political scholars, you have your assignment! His Manliness ( talk) 18:19, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Ref 1 G.F. Will, " To Commemorate the Paris Climate Conference, Let's Celebrate Coal," National Review Online, 16 Dec 2015.
Ref 2 D. Craig, " Where's Our Coal, Where Are Our Fish?," Snouts in the Trough, 29 May 2013.
This link gives the source as a speech at Blackpool, 24 May 1945 [1] Gilgamesh4 ( talk) 12:24, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
I have removed the following material - "In 1947, Bevan stated: "All I am doing is extending to the entire population of Britain the benefits we had in Tredegar for a generation or more. We are going to Tredegar-ise you." [1] [2] There is no contemporary evidence for him saying this, and there is also a Swindon version, with similarly nebulous origins. DuncanHill ( talk) 18:05, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
References
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Did you know?" column on
November 25, 2019. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that
Aneurin Bevan led the establishment of the
National Health Service, which was inspired by the
Tredegar Medical Aid Society in his hometown? |
This
level-5 vital article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
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I happen to know, or at least have excellent evidence for believing, that rather late in his life Bevan enjoyed "the good things of life", eg wearing expensive clothes, and associating with old-fashioned noblemen, but I have no references for this. It seems to me an interesting, and to me attractive, facet of his character, and I wonder if anybody can document it? Sgd Seadowns ( talk) 12:33, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
I don't understand the reference to "David" Bevan. Is it an error, or was that his dad's name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.133.47.40 ( talk • contribs) 22:49, 4 March 2004
The article claims Bevan quoted a comment made by Marx in 1885. If somebody would like to explain how a corpse can stress the benefits of war, now would be the time to do so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.254.252 ( talk • contribs) 15:19, 6 June 2005
Do we have a picture? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.92.237.111 ( talk • contribs) 22:27, 10 December 2005
As I recall, Mosley attempted to form an independent political group in the aftermath of his resignation. It is true that Bevan was associated with that, but this group failed. When Mosley started to be influenced by Mussolini, Bevan clearly smelled a rat, and severed all contacts with him. Bevan was never a fascist. I will do some digging in Foot's biography. When I get a citation, I will change the entry. -- Train guard 17:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand why there are two identical articles, one called Nye and one called Aneurin Rathfelder 22:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to note that In Place of Fear is a book and not a collection of essays. Bevan frequently refers to it as a book, to other "chapters" and so forth. Andysoh 09:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Surely it should have its own page? (I'm not knowledgeable enough to create this though) Gilgamesh4 ( talk) 12:15, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I think this is an innacurate phrase to describe the current NHS in England (though may be true for Scotland, Wales, and/or Northern Ireland). I am put off getting medications because I can't afford the prescription fee, or the £125 for having a tooth drilled, and glasses are also not free. The sentence uses the present tense, and is not expressly placed in a historical context. I do not believe the phrase 'free at the point of need' has a specific common contemporary use; 'free' to me just means without charge, 'point-of-need' I think is also generally interpreted literally.
According to this prescription charges were introduced in 1952, and prompted the resignation of Aneurin Bevan. So, perhaps it's fair to say the implementation of the NHS failed his ideal.
I am new to editing wikipedia and the BRM cycle (though I've read over the tutorial and other pages today), please advise me of any mistakes I've made in attempting to resolve this disagreement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobius Greenwald ( talk • contribs) 12:48, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
A sizeable amount of healthcare in Briton, these days, is not free. The NHS page does not use the phrase 'free at the point-of-need' in an unqualified way, even though it is a great and succinct phrase, because it's not accurate. You mention the context of the time; the sentence implies this is specifically how the NHS works today. It would be fine if it was past tense. Otherwise it needs to be qualified, perhaps prefixed with 'designed to', 'mainly' or 'generally'.
I could probably compromise and say, as the main NHS page says, '[services] the vast majority of which are free at the point of use'. Although since 85% of Britains have to pay for prescriptions, I think it erroneous to say that the 'vast' majority of healthcare is free. The vast majority of cost is paid for, however I believe the majority of patients are outpatients and (in England) have to pay something.
'Free' should not be used in place of 'heavily subsidised'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobius Greenwald ( talk • contribs) 14:03, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Additionally: I know from personal experience, if you turn up at A&E you will always be treated. But if, as you say, you turn up to a doctors, you may not be. If you are in receiept of income based JSA, disability benefit, or a similar benefit then you will be, otherwise you must find the money. If you have no money, you can't get your prescription. It's not free. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobius Greenwald ( talk • contribs) 14:21, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
There's a need for historical perspective here. When it was set up it was a huge thing, it was free, it was a great blessing for millions of Britons. From what I remember there were some minor charges but I don't remember for what. This can be ascertained from reliable sources. In the past years there have been changes in the care offered by the NHS and attempts to privatize it. When it was set up it was essentially free, and the establishment of the NHS needs to be thought of in comparison to what existed at the time. So maybe a distinction is needed between the original purpose, mandate, and conditions of the NHS and what is happening now? Bevan fought very hard so far as I know to have a free NHS. Nathan43 ( talk) 14:46, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't read everything above. But I think on an entry about Aneurin Bevan the situation of the NHS as it was in his lifetime should be emphasized. It was an amazing success and he was vilified for it. It has been the envy of the world until recently. Nathan43 ( talk) 14:50, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
I agree. The NHS was a huge thing when it was set up, a blessing, and continues to be a (for the most part) a blessing. The magnitude of setting up the NHS should be emphasised in the introduction. Just, as you say, emphasising the historical perspective if the word 'free' is to be used. Perhaps the end of the intro could be changed from:
His most famous accomplishment came when, as Minister of Health in the post-war Attlee government, he spearheaded the establishment of the National Health Service, which provides medical care free at point-of-need to all Britons.
to:
His most famous accomplishment came when, as Minister of Health in the post-war Attlee government, he spearheaded the establishment of the National Health Service, in order to provide medical care free at the point-of-need to all Britons.
Any objections, improvements or alternatives? Tobius Greenwald ( talk) 22:20, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for everyone's time and input: Nathan43, Abhayakara, Danger!, and Snowded. It's just one sentence, but I think it's important. Tobius Greenwald ( talk) 22:00, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
British, surely. 'Welsh' is not (yet) a nationality in the sense that is clearly intended in the box. Is George Bush, for example, a 'Texan'? I think not! 131.111.88.9 ( talk) 15:09, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
The part-privatization of the NHS in 1951 was to pay for the cost of Britain's involvement in the Korean War. ( HymanFam ( talk) 19:25, 17 January 2015 (UTC))
I admire Bevan's contribution to the creation of the welfare state as much as the next man, but we should not self-censor here. Bevan's participation in the libel suit against The Spectator with Crossman and Phillips was no shining hour, but let's please treat our readers as adults and not try to whitewash the episode out of history. Nandt1 ( talk) 21:33, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the link that is helpful, the version I found did not have a chapter but it was obviously different from the yours. Helpful as it is I think it makes the point more strongly. Jenkins makes the point that you should now view Bevan through Crossman's diaries as they were enemies. Compounded by the fact that Jenkins himself was seen as Crossman's inheritor. He also makes the point that Bevan could hold his alcohol so the pejorative description might not have applied to him. Within the chapter Jenkins is saying that aspects of Bevan's later career were less glorious. That as an assertion may be notable. Something like "Jenkins asserts that the latter days of Bevan's career were less than glorious, citing the Spectator libel case and ......." The examples can be referenced. That is just about sustainable and I would support it. The current contested text shows no third party evidence that would justify more than a casual reference. I also took the liberty of putting your link into the text of your comment to make the page more readable. I hope that is OK ---- Snowded TALK 12:34, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Roy Jenkins argues that Bevan was one of the few political "stars" of the 20th Century, and with Churchill the last great politicians "never to adapt to television", great orators who needed an audience. However he also considers Bevans cynical support of Morrison against Gaitskell in 1955 and the Spectator Libel trial (where Bevan has been accused by Crossman of perjury) as the "two really despicable performances" of Bevan's life. I think the above is supported and more balanced. I think we probably need to note that Jenkins came from the opposing wing of the Labour Party and/or that his criticisms are disputed by Foot. Something along those lines is OK. But the extended and elaborate discussion taking one political perspective is not on. You might want to consider a sourced article on the libel trial that could be linked from the above. ---- Snowded TALK 07:21, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
If anybody is interested, the fullest account I've ever read of this disreputable incident is in Brian Brivati's 1999 biog of Arnold Goodman, solicitor to the rich and famous. The truth of the matter appears to be that it was Morgan Phillips, who notoriously could not hold his drink, who made a fool of himself. However Bevan, who resented press criticism which he had received in the past, saw it as a chance to score off the press (in the full knowledge that he was committing perjury). I do have some notes kicking around somewhere but I'm not making any promises as to when I'll ever get round to posting them. Paulturtle ( talk) 23:01, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 17:34, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
Aneurin Bevan is virtually unknown here in America, yet I am surprised his most famous quote, circa 1945, is nowhere to be found in either the article or the Talk page: "This island is made mainly of coal and surrounded by fish. Only an organising genius could produce a shortage of coal and fish at the same time." I have not been able to find the context from which this quote came. Was Clement Attlee the organizing genius? Not much online, but perhaps a dusty biography on the shelf of some British library could put these ironic words into context. British political scholars, you have your assignment! His Manliness ( talk) 18:19, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Ref 1 G.F. Will, " To Commemorate the Paris Climate Conference, Let's Celebrate Coal," National Review Online, 16 Dec 2015.
Ref 2 D. Craig, " Where's Our Coal, Where Are Our Fish?," Snouts in the Trough, 29 May 2013.
This link gives the source as a speech at Blackpool, 24 May 1945 [1] Gilgamesh4 ( talk) 12:24, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
I have removed the following material - "In 1947, Bevan stated: "All I am doing is extending to the entire population of Britain the benefits we had in Tredegar for a generation or more. We are going to Tredegar-ise you." [1] [2] There is no contemporary evidence for him saying this, and there is also a Swindon version, with similarly nebulous origins. DuncanHill ( talk) 18:05, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
References