![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I notice some folk around talking about the ordering of fansites further up this talk page... Well guys, have a read of WP:EL - In reality we really shouldn't have any of them. Wikipedia is not a link directory or blog, it's an encyclopedia. The official site should be sufficient. Thanks/ wangi 21:14, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Guys, can we please leave comments alone on the talk page - leave them where they are. Focus on the issue, rather than the formatting, thanks/ wangi 22:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
A good fan site link can only be useful in my opinion. Andycjp July 2006
I agree with Andycjp and I will continue to make sure Andy's biggest fansite remains on this page. MurraysWorld has been around for about a year now and has the largest Murray online community. I don't think it's right to deprive the user from finding that. Mark7144 00:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
It seems most of the people in this discussion agree that the fansites should remain so I believe you have no right interveening wangi. I understand you want to become an admin but your actions are against the majority and if you continue I may feel the need to report your bad editing habits to the Wiki authorities. 86.12.249.208 00:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, the discussion's been going on for five days now, and before it runs the risk of going where a lot of these discussions go, and degenerating into an edit war, I thought I'd try to pull the strands of the discussion together.
WP:EL Wangi has drawn our attention to the Wikipedia policy on external links WP:EL and how they might apply to fansites. I think we're all agreed that the big long list that we had before isn't appropriate to an Encyclopedia. On a developing page like Andy Murray's page, it's arguable that it was doing no harm, but once an edit war started there, it had to go.
From my reading of WP:EL, and from the discussion above, links to fansites are appropriate either if they are felt to be informative by the editors, or if the subject is the sort that will generate many fansites, and to give readers an example of one.
Trident makes another excellent point, which is not in WP:EL, but probably should be, which is that the editing community will gain from including fansites, because we'll pull in contributors from those sites, and avoid excluding editors committed to the subject, with access to good information.
So we should have only a few (if any) links.
How many links
Wangi, Mais Oui and Mkns have (I think) come down in favour of having no links whatsoever (As Mais Oui says: "Scorched Earth"!)
There are a good many others who see the point in having links (although I'm not sure how many links) Jamandell, Vonce, Trident13, Andycjp, Mark7144.
So how many links before we become a "link directory"? - I doubt if we should have more than 3 or 4.
Useful/Informative links The next question is then about whether the Andy Murray fansites that were on the list are useful or informative.
Trident suggests we look at what kind of information a good fansite could provide that we couldn't or shouldn't on Wikipedia, and judge whether to include specific sites on those bases. I'd suggest that some of the things a good tennis player fansite could provide would be:
On that basis, I'd say two of the sites on that list fit the bill to my knowledge.
One is run by our friend Mark7144, who's not exactly helping his cause by getting blocked for Vandalism today.
However, he does run a genuinely good fansite, Murraysworld, with a large, strong community of fans, and which collates news stories about Murray incredibly well. It also has occasional exclusives, such as interviews with Andy or his team. As you can see from his contributions to this discussion, Mark's passionate about his subject and his site, so hopefully he'll be a strong contributor here as well!
The other is the "Andy Murray Message Board", which has another strong community of fans (including Vonce & myself from this page). The messageboard participants jointly provide a wealth of information that a website or blog couldn't, including live and archived web commentary on matches. Rankings calculations and collation of information on things such as his schedule, which are usually more up to date than his own site!
How to order the list
The only proposals here are alphabetical order, although I'm not sure that we should be ordering "fairly" rather than with some editorial judgement on what order is most appropriate.
Advertising (e.g. "As read by Andy Murray", "with news & commentary")
Again, I think we're all agreed that advertising isn't appropriate for an encyclopedia. However, I'd suggest that a descriptive NPV comment next to a link would be useful to the reader. Maybe we should ask editors without conections to the sites to suggest such a comment?
Proposed way forward
We go ahead with a list of just two fansites, Murraysworld and the "Andy Murray Message Board", in that order, mainly because Murraysworld is a more traditional fansite than the message board, and so more what a reader might be looking for.
If the editors that included the other fansites can make a reasonable case for inclusion, then we should also consider them. The last time I checked them out, though, most had not been updated for quite some time, or were what Trident calls "MySpace or Yahoo! site/picture book listings etc,", and so I don't think this risks recreating a super- long list. In the meantime, if more links are added, or the order changed, we should delete them, direct them to this discussion on the talk page, and block the authors if they persist without making a strong case and gaining consensus.
Consensus?
Is this at least a way forward that we can all live with? - maybe not as tidy as Wangi & Mais Oui would want, but taking us away from the long list, and especially the edit war, while keeping the fansite links that many want to see remain.
Please comment/vote. RobbieC 21:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I suggest we leave this discussion open until Tuesday morning, so that everyone who wants to can contribute, and we can make sure everyone gets a chance - many people edit on a weekend -especially Sunday nights. I'm encouraged so far, with no howls of protest. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RobbieC ( talk • contribs) 2006-07-14 09:20:54 (UTC)
RobbieC 19:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I've now put the Murraysworld link back up RobbieC 09:02, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Is there any standard way that information about Andy's progress in 2006 should be added? I think if there was a consensus as to how the information is added, it would save the page growing to ridiculous lengths. Are there any other tennis professionals' pages that we should look at to see how it should be done? Mkns 22:07, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Maybe we should put any knowledge which is specific to a particular tournament from 2005 into that tournaments page, reducing the 2005 entry to maybe only three paragraphs, but we can let 2006 run to a 'ridiculous length', as long as all the info is put somewhere at the end of the year. i might start doing some of that later today.
I propose the following reshuffle of the 2005 section to this page. I will also create a Murraymania page and put some quotes from him in a section at the end of the page, as long as there are no objections to this.
Murray turned professional in April, playing his first senior match at a clay court event in Barcelona, before playing his final junior event at the French Open. In May, he played a Challenger in Dresden. Murray then got a wild card to the Stella Artois championship at Queens, beating Santiago Ventura and the seeded Taylor Dent. Murraymania began to kick off as he took sixth seed Joachim Johansson to three sets, but after getting cramp and an ankle injury, he lost the match. This forced him to withdraw from the Nottingham Open tournament of the next week.
The LTA gave Murray a wildcard to Wimbledon Wimbledon wildcard. Ranked 374th in the world going into the first round, he comfortably beat George Bastl in straight sets. Fourteenth seed Radek Stepánek suffered the same fate in the next round. Becoming the first Scot in the Open era to get to the third round at Wimbledon, he met David Nalbandian on centre court. After storming to a 2-0 sets lead, he collapsed (literally once) to a 3-2 lead. Again, cramp was partly responsible, leading to concerns over his fitness. Nevertheless, Murraymania had arrived.
A Rhode Island based tournament was next for Murray, where he lost to Anthony Dupuis in the last 16, having won his first round match. He then won a Challenger event in Aptos, California. Another wild card saw him enter the RCA Championships at Indianapolis, where he only progressed one round before losing to seeded Mardy Fish in Round 2. His good form in Challengers continued with quarter-final appearances at Granby and Vancouver, and a tournament win at Binghamton. Murray's first Tennis Masters Series appearance awaited with the Cincinnati Masters, where he again beat Taylor Dent. His first ever top-10 opponent, Marat Safin, beat him in second round. After having to qualify for the US Open, he beat Andrei Pavel in the first round, despite some on court vomiting. His injury worries returned in the fifth set of a match against Arnaud Clement, which he lost 6-0.
In the Thai Open first round, Andrew finally achieved top 100-ranking by beating Robin Soderling. He then won againt US Open semi-finalist Robby Ginepri and then beat home-favourite Paradorn Srichapan in the final. His date with Roger Federer in the final was a predictable, but not embarassing loss, and for his troubles Andrew picked up 45,000 dollars and gained 28 ranking places.
Murray then returned to Europe to fulfill a commitment to play in an indoor Challenger Event in Mons, Belgium. Given 7th seeding, he beat Ivo Heuberger and Gregory Carraz in the early rounds, despite a 49 minute lighting failure in the second of those. His third round opponent Xavier Malisse was given a walkover win after Murray cautiously decided to withdraw from the event with injury.
His injury quickly righted, Murray was drawn against fellow Brit Tim Henman in the first round of the Swiss Indoors at Basle. In what was seen by the British media as a changing of the guards, Murray won, going on to win again in his next match against Tomas Berdych before losing to fourth seed Fernando Gonzalez in the quarter finals.
Andrew Murray thus achieved an end of year ranking of 63, higher than Roger Federer at the same age.
I see his residence has been changed from Barcelona, Spain to Barcelona, Catalonia. Surely Catalonia is in Spain therefore to be totally correct it should be listed as Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain? When I check the page for another Spanish-resident tennis player ( Rafael Nadal), it lists his town and Spain, not the autonomous community that he lives. I therefore wonder whether it should be reverted back to how it was. Mkns 22:15, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Will I start a flame war by proposing that Andy be added to the "British Tennis Players" category, as well as the "Scottish Tennis Players" category. It is confusing for a tennis fan to see less successful players such as Alex Bogdanovic on that page, while having to click on the link to Scottish players for Andy (& Elena Baltacha). Haven't made the change after seeing all the fuss over his nationality. RobbieC 13:50, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone verified that it is actually Dunblane. I come from that part of the world myself, Stirling Royal Infirmary is the most likely place for childbirth, given it has a maternity unit which serves the surrounding area. Of course it could have been a home birth... Hellinterface 11:42, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I notice some folk around talking about the ordering of fansites further up this talk page... Well guys, have a read of WP:EL - In reality we really shouldn't have any of them. Wikipedia is not a link directory or blog, it's an encyclopedia. The official site should be sufficient. Thanks/ wangi 21:14, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Guys, can we please leave comments alone on the talk page - leave them where they are. Focus on the issue, rather than the formatting, thanks/ wangi 22:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
A good fan site link can only be useful in my opinion. Andycjp July 2006
I agree with Andycjp and I will continue to make sure Andy's biggest fansite remains on this page. MurraysWorld has been around for about a year now and has the largest Murray online community. I don't think it's right to deprive the user from finding that. Mark7144 00:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
It seems most of the people in this discussion agree that the fansites should remain so I believe you have no right interveening wangi. I understand you want to become an admin but your actions are against the majority and if you continue I may feel the need to report your bad editing habits to the Wiki authorities. 86.12.249.208 00:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, the discussion's been going on for five days now, and before it runs the risk of going where a lot of these discussions go, and degenerating into an edit war, I thought I'd try to pull the strands of the discussion together.
WP:EL Wangi has drawn our attention to the Wikipedia policy on external links WP:EL and how they might apply to fansites. I think we're all agreed that the big long list that we had before isn't appropriate to an Encyclopedia. On a developing page like Andy Murray's page, it's arguable that it was doing no harm, but once an edit war started there, it had to go.
From my reading of WP:EL, and from the discussion above, links to fansites are appropriate either if they are felt to be informative by the editors, or if the subject is the sort that will generate many fansites, and to give readers an example of one.
Trident makes another excellent point, which is not in WP:EL, but probably should be, which is that the editing community will gain from including fansites, because we'll pull in contributors from those sites, and avoid excluding editors committed to the subject, with access to good information.
So we should have only a few (if any) links.
How many links
Wangi, Mais Oui and Mkns have (I think) come down in favour of having no links whatsoever (As Mais Oui says: "Scorched Earth"!)
There are a good many others who see the point in having links (although I'm not sure how many links) Jamandell, Vonce, Trident13, Andycjp, Mark7144.
So how many links before we become a "link directory"? - I doubt if we should have more than 3 or 4.
Useful/Informative links The next question is then about whether the Andy Murray fansites that were on the list are useful or informative.
Trident suggests we look at what kind of information a good fansite could provide that we couldn't or shouldn't on Wikipedia, and judge whether to include specific sites on those bases. I'd suggest that some of the things a good tennis player fansite could provide would be:
On that basis, I'd say two of the sites on that list fit the bill to my knowledge.
One is run by our friend Mark7144, who's not exactly helping his cause by getting blocked for Vandalism today.
However, he does run a genuinely good fansite, Murraysworld, with a large, strong community of fans, and which collates news stories about Murray incredibly well. It also has occasional exclusives, such as interviews with Andy or his team. As you can see from his contributions to this discussion, Mark's passionate about his subject and his site, so hopefully he'll be a strong contributor here as well!
The other is the "Andy Murray Message Board", which has another strong community of fans (including Vonce & myself from this page). The messageboard participants jointly provide a wealth of information that a website or blog couldn't, including live and archived web commentary on matches. Rankings calculations and collation of information on things such as his schedule, which are usually more up to date than his own site!
How to order the list
The only proposals here are alphabetical order, although I'm not sure that we should be ordering "fairly" rather than with some editorial judgement on what order is most appropriate.
Advertising (e.g. "As read by Andy Murray", "with news & commentary")
Again, I think we're all agreed that advertising isn't appropriate for an encyclopedia. However, I'd suggest that a descriptive NPV comment next to a link would be useful to the reader. Maybe we should ask editors without conections to the sites to suggest such a comment?
Proposed way forward
We go ahead with a list of just two fansites, Murraysworld and the "Andy Murray Message Board", in that order, mainly because Murraysworld is a more traditional fansite than the message board, and so more what a reader might be looking for.
If the editors that included the other fansites can make a reasonable case for inclusion, then we should also consider them. The last time I checked them out, though, most had not been updated for quite some time, or were what Trident calls "MySpace or Yahoo! site/picture book listings etc,", and so I don't think this risks recreating a super- long list. In the meantime, if more links are added, or the order changed, we should delete them, direct them to this discussion on the talk page, and block the authors if they persist without making a strong case and gaining consensus.
Consensus?
Is this at least a way forward that we can all live with? - maybe not as tidy as Wangi & Mais Oui would want, but taking us away from the long list, and especially the edit war, while keeping the fansite links that many want to see remain.
Please comment/vote. RobbieC 21:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I suggest we leave this discussion open until Tuesday morning, so that everyone who wants to can contribute, and we can make sure everyone gets a chance - many people edit on a weekend -especially Sunday nights. I'm encouraged so far, with no howls of protest. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RobbieC ( talk • contribs) 2006-07-14 09:20:54 (UTC)
RobbieC 19:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I've now put the Murraysworld link back up RobbieC 09:02, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Is there any standard way that information about Andy's progress in 2006 should be added? I think if there was a consensus as to how the information is added, it would save the page growing to ridiculous lengths. Are there any other tennis professionals' pages that we should look at to see how it should be done? Mkns 22:07, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Maybe we should put any knowledge which is specific to a particular tournament from 2005 into that tournaments page, reducing the 2005 entry to maybe only three paragraphs, but we can let 2006 run to a 'ridiculous length', as long as all the info is put somewhere at the end of the year. i might start doing some of that later today.
I propose the following reshuffle of the 2005 section to this page. I will also create a Murraymania page and put some quotes from him in a section at the end of the page, as long as there are no objections to this.
Murray turned professional in April, playing his first senior match at a clay court event in Barcelona, before playing his final junior event at the French Open. In May, he played a Challenger in Dresden. Murray then got a wild card to the Stella Artois championship at Queens, beating Santiago Ventura and the seeded Taylor Dent. Murraymania began to kick off as he took sixth seed Joachim Johansson to three sets, but after getting cramp and an ankle injury, he lost the match. This forced him to withdraw from the Nottingham Open tournament of the next week.
The LTA gave Murray a wildcard to Wimbledon Wimbledon wildcard. Ranked 374th in the world going into the first round, he comfortably beat George Bastl in straight sets. Fourteenth seed Radek Stepánek suffered the same fate in the next round. Becoming the first Scot in the Open era to get to the third round at Wimbledon, he met David Nalbandian on centre court. After storming to a 2-0 sets lead, he collapsed (literally once) to a 3-2 lead. Again, cramp was partly responsible, leading to concerns over his fitness. Nevertheless, Murraymania had arrived.
A Rhode Island based tournament was next for Murray, where he lost to Anthony Dupuis in the last 16, having won his first round match. He then won a Challenger event in Aptos, California. Another wild card saw him enter the RCA Championships at Indianapolis, where he only progressed one round before losing to seeded Mardy Fish in Round 2. His good form in Challengers continued with quarter-final appearances at Granby and Vancouver, and a tournament win at Binghamton. Murray's first Tennis Masters Series appearance awaited with the Cincinnati Masters, where he again beat Taylor Dent. His first ever top-10 opponent, Marat Safin, beat him in second round. After having to qualify for the US Open, he beat Andrei Pavel in the first round, despite some on court vomiting. His injury worries returned in the fifth set of a match against Arnaud Clement, which he lost 6-0.
In the Thai Open first round, Andrew finally achieved top 100-ranking by beating Robin Soderling. He then won againt US Open semi-finalist Robby Ginepri and then beat home-favourite Paradorn Srichapan in the final. His date with Roger Federer in the final was a predictable, but not embarassing loss, and for his troubles Andrew picked up 45,000 dollars and gained 28 ranking places.
Murray then returned to Europe to fulfill a commitment to play in an indoor Challenger Event in Mons, Belgium. Given 7th seeding, he beat Ivo Heuberger and Gregory Carraz in the early rounds, despite a 49 minute lighting failure in the second of those. His third round opponent Xavier Malisse was given a walkover win after Murray cautiously decided to withdraw from the event with injury.
His injury quickly righted, Murray was drawn against fellow Brit Tim Henman in the first round of the Swiss Indoors at Basle. In what was seen by the British media as a changing of the guards, Murray won, going on to win again in his next match against Tomas Berdych before losing to fourth seed Fernando Gonzalez in the quarter finals.
Andrew Murray thus achieved an end of year ranking of 63, higher than Roger Federer at the same age.
I see his residence has been changed from Barcelona, Spain to Barcelona, Catalonia. Surely Catalonia is in Spain therefore to be totally correct it should be listed as Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain? When I check the page for another Spanish-resident tennis player ( Rafael Nadal), it lists his town and Spain, not the autonomous community that he lives. I therefore wonder whether it should be reverted back to how it was. Mkns 22:15, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Will I start a flame war by proposing that Andy be added to the "British Tennis Players" category, as well as the "Scottish Tennis Players" category. It is confusing for a tennis fan to see less successful players such as Alex Bogdanovic on that page, while having to click on the link to Scottish players for Andy (& Elena Baltacha). Haven't made the change after seeing all the fuss over his nationality. RobbieC 13:50, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone verified that it is actually Dunblane. I come from that part of the world myself, Stirling Royal Infirmary is the most likely place for childbirth, given it has a maternity unit which serves the surrounding area. Of course it could have been a home birth... Hellinterface 11:42, 20 February 2006 (UTC)