This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Andriy Biletsky article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to articles about
living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
I've never encountered such an extreme overuse of quotes from sources used as 'notes'. They're longer than the article itself! Not only are they extraneous, but are copyright violations from cherry picked sources.
Bear in mind, also, that this is a WP:BLP, therefore huge tracts taken from a small number of 'experts' is WP:UNDUE. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 05:35, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot ( talk) 09:42, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
I can’t find this information in the cited source. As far as I can tell, he was replaced as commander in October 2014, and would have been obligated to quit the National Guard at the same time to run for office. Is there evidence he remained in the regiment after that? — Michael Z. 14:43, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
-34 and #35 quotations from this page are either misleading, or unsourced themselves.
-34: In the Andriy Biletsky wikipedia page it states:
"The goals of the "Social-National Assembly", that he co-founded, are "the protection of the white race by creating an anti-democratic and anti-capitalist "nationocracy" system" and the eradication of "international Zionist speculative capital""
However the article it quotes from (#34) https://www.bbcrussian.com/russian/international/2014/07/140716_ukraine_swedish_sniper doesnt even translate to what the statement says.
-35: In the Andriy Biletsky wikipedia page it states:
"In 2010, Biletsky said that it was the Ukrainian nation's mission to "lead the white races of the world in a final crusade … against Semite-led Untermenschen""
However the article it quotes from (#35) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/13/ukraine-far-right-national-militia-takes-law-into-own-hands-neo-nazi-links doesn't actually have a documented way this statement was communicated it states: "the former Azov battalion commander declared in 2010 that the Ukrainian nation’s mission was to “lead the white races of the world in a final crusade … against Semite-led Untermenschen [subhumans]”."
hasn't been confirmed by any other sources. The writer only writes that he "declared in 2010" without any further citation. Can we get a fact check on this quote? Because he has since denied it. If there is no evidence of it then this should be removed as it is only a baseless smear instead of a real actual thing.
He is a Ukrainian Nationalist, virulently anti-Russian and Polish, both of whom are "White" by American standards, but Ukrainian Nationalism and Nazism, an ideology to which he and Azov ascribe, do not recognize nor promote "White" nationalism. the term simply means nothing in the context of Ukrainian Nationalism or Nazism. Jaygo113 ( talk) 01:13, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
[1] Heidi Beirich and Kevin Hicks. "Chapter 7: White nationalism in America". In Perry, Barbara. Hate Crimes. Greenwood Publishing, 2009. pp.114–115]
and seeks to develop and maintain a white racial and national identity.
[2] Conversi, Daniele (July 2004). "Can nationalism studies and ethnic/racial studies be brought together?". Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies. 30 (4): 815–29. doi:10.1080/13691830410001699649. S2CID 143586644.
[3] Heidi Beirich and Kevin Hicks. "Chapter 7: White Nationalism in America". In Perry, Barbara. Hate Crimes. Greenwood Publishing, 2009. p.119. "One of the primary political goals of white nationalism is to forge a white identity".
[4] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/22/world/americas/white-nationalism-explained.html?_r=0
Nazism emphasised German nationalism, including both irredentism and expansionism. Nazism held racial theories based upon a belief in the existence of an Aryan master race that was superior to all other races. The Nazis emphasised the existence of racial conflict between the Aryan race and others—particularly Jews, whom the Nazis viewed as a mixed race that had infiltrated multiple societies and was responsible for exploitation and repression of the Aryan race. The Nazis also categorised Slavs as Untermensch (sub-human).[142]
Ukrainians (Ukrainian: Українці, romanized: Ukraintsi, pronounced [ʊkrɐˈjinʲts⁽ʲ⁾i]), or the Ukrainian people,
[45] http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ukrainians?show=0&t=1293151953
are an East Slavic ethnic group native to Ukraine. They are the seventh-largest
[46] http://worldpopulationreview.com/continents/europe-population/
nation in Europe and the second-largest among the East Slavs after the Russians.
Nazism considered Slavs to be sub-human. Ukrainians are Slavs. Ukrainian Nationalism and Nazism cannot coexist. and since Ukrainian Nationalism is a form of White Nationalism, then White Nationalism and Nazism are not interchangeable terms. They are mutually exclusive. Jaygo113 ( talk) 02:07, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
All the sources that describe him a "white supremacist far-right politician" are quite old and he has since rescinded publicly his previous views, which is also referenced in the article. Since he no longer promotes any such views and states nothing of the kind any longer, I have added the description "former". I am also not sure if he still even leads the party or serves any political function, this needs to be checked and updated accordingly. Abcmaxx ( talk) 23:51, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
rescinded publicly his previous views? He's denied having said some things, as mentioned in this article that also describes him as a white supremacist and neo-Nazi [7], and has denied being a racist anti-Semite [8], but, again, WP:MANDY, that does not mean he is not a racist anti-Semite. Denying that you are a white supremacist or neo-Nazi does not equal repudiating white supremacist or neo-Nazi views. The sentences "Furthermore, Biletsky declares that he is not racist or antisemitic. In an interview he explained that he regards Israel and Japan as role models for the development of Ukraine." should probably be removed from the article then, no? And shouldn't the "former" in the lede thus be removed?
What you have just posted doesn't mention Biletsky does it though? Abcmaxx ( talk) 00:18, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
All the sources just quote him that one time from 2010. Nearly all the sources are from 10 to 6 years old. We should be careful to label whoever as a white supremacist. The Metro article I'm sorry but it just isn't very good in general. The other as I said, do not even mention him. Aside from that one quote is there any proof of him being a white supremacist? Otherwise it is just jumping to conclusions on the back of some questionable journalism. Abcmaxx ( talk) 17:36, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
Should Andriy Biletsky be described as a white supremacist in the article's lede and "Political views" section? Lkb335 ( talk) 18:04, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
In 2010, Andriy Biletsky, now leader of the National Corps, the Azov movement's political wing, reportedly said his goal was to "lead the White races of the world in a final crusade." In a statement to CNN, the Azov regiment said it "appreciates and respects Andriy Biletsky as the regiment's founder and first commander, but we have nothing to do with his political activities and the National Corps party" -- adding the former commander never made such comments.
Since when did the statements of the neo-Nazis of the "Azov regiment" become a usable source on Wikipedia?but wants us to use primary sources from far right groups as our source even when they disagree with expert commentary.) Mhorg then goes on to add some better secondary sources. The CNN source throws doubt on the oft-quoted "Untermenschen" passage, which nobody has found a primary source for. Umland is a good expert to use with attribution, but no biological racism is not synonymous with white supremacism. Moscow Times sayinh Biletsky has a white supremacist background is also old, 2015, and an opinion piece (is it's author Josh Cohen authoritative?). The KHPG source, which I consider reliable, is from 2015, and is interesting:
Even the most notorious neo-Nazi in Ukraine’s parliament recently denied having previously made white supremacist and anti-Semitic utterances – among the reasons why Viacheslav Likhachev, head of the National Minority Rights Monitoring Group and leading researcher in the field, expresses ‘cautious optimism’ about the situation with anti-Semitism and xenophobia in Ukraine... A telling detail, for example, was the fact that Andriy Biletsky, a man with a highly dubious neo-Nazi and white supremacist background, recently claimed that he had never made a foul call for a crusade by the white race against Semitic subhumans.Again, this adds doubt to the Untermenschen quote and suggests he was already changing by 2015. In short, we shouldn't state it so definitively, especially in the lead (where far right is sufficient), but more carefully in the body. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 18:09, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
@ My very best wishes: Since interviews are considered self-published material, they cannot be used for any claim about living people. This is a non-negotiable policy. M.Bitton ( talk) 01:15, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
@ Drmies: Are interviews considered as self published material or not? M.Bitton ( talk) 01:43, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
The issue here is whether we can publish "self-sourced" claim about a living person? M.Bitton ( talk) 14:11, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
Interviews are generally reliable for the fact that the interviewee said something, but not necessarily for the accuracy of what was said. The publications are merely repeating their comments, typically with minimal editing. No matter how highly respected a publication is, it does not present interviewee responses as having been checked for accuracy. In this sense, interviews should be treated like self-published material.. M.Bitton ( talk) 00:35, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
See this edit. Problem is the Times article does not name Biletsky. Therefore it seems to me it is SYNTH to assume the "white supremacist" they mention is him, even though it's highly likely, especially given "white supremacist" must be a WP:CONTENTIOUS label ("best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject"). See also WP:BLPSTYLE. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 23:09, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
@ Lute88 Please explain your your revert here
Why do you think the inclusion of a fringe and comical statement "...and said that it was a fake quotation fabricated by Sergey Lavrov to defame him" following the subject's denial - "Biletsky denied ever making such remarks", is justified. The source is an interview and thus not independent, and gordonua.com is clearly not reliable.
You reverted the telegraph source too. [1]
Some other sources include The Forward and Guardian article already present. [2] [3]
You'd notice in these sources that, they do not include justifications, ramblings and denials from the subject itself, which create a false balance and are undue. — hako9 ( talk) 16:45, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
References
— hako9 ( talk) 16:45, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
Next time have the courage of your convictions @ Lute88. — hako9 ( talk) 15:29, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Andriy Biletsky article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to articles about
living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to Eastern Europe or the Balkans, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
I've never encountered such an extreme overuse of quotes from sources used as 'notes'. They're longer than the article itself! Not only are they extraneous, but are copyright violations from cherry picked sources.
Bear in mind, also, that this is a WP:BLP, therefore huge tracts taken from a small number of 'experts' is WP:UNDUE. -- Iryna Harpy ( talk) 05:35, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot ( talk) 09:42, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
I can’t find this information in the cited source. As far as I can tell, he was replaced as commander in October 2014, and would have been obligated to quit the National Guard at the same time to run for office. Is there evidence he remained in the regiment after that? — Michael Z. 14:43, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
-34 and #35 quotations from this page are either misleading, or unsourced themselves.
-34: In the Andriy Biletsky wikipedia page it states:
"The goals of the "Social-National Assembly", that he co-founded, are "the protection of the white race by creating an anti-democratic and anti-capitalist "nationocracy" system" and the eradication of "international Zionist speculative capital""
However the article it quotes from (#34) https://www.bbcrussian.com/russian/international/2014/07/140716_ukraine_swedish_sniper doesnt even translate to what the statement says.
-35: In the Andriy Biletsky wikipedia page it states:
"In 2010, Biletsky said that it was the Ukrainian nation's mission to "lead the white races of the world in a final crusade … against Semite-led Untermenschen""
However the article it quotes from (#35) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/13/ukraine-far-right-national-militia-takes-law-into-own-hands-neo-nazi-links doesn't actually have a documented way this statement was communicated it states: "the former Azov battalion commander declared in 2010 that the Ukrainian nation’s mission was to “lead the white races of the world in a final crusade … against Semite-led Untermenschen [subhumans]”."
hasn't been confirmed by any other sources. The writer only writes that he "declared in 2010" without any further citation. Can we get a fact check on this quote? Because he has since denied it. If there is no evidence of it then this should be removed as it is only a baseless smear instead of a real actual thing.
He is a Ukrainian Nationalist, virulently anti-Russian and Polish, both of whom are "White" by American standards, but Ukrainian Nationalism and Nazism, an ideology to which he and Azov ascribe, do not recognize nor promote "White" nationalism. the term simply means nothing in the context of Ukrainian Nationalism or Nazism. Jaygo113 ( talk) 01:13, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
[1] Heidi Beirich and Kevin Hicks. "Chapter 7: White nationalism in America". In Perry, Barbara. Hate Crimes. Greenwood Publishing, 2009. pp.114–115]
and seeks to develop and maintain a white racial and national identity.
[2] Conversi, Daniele (July 2004). "Can nationalism studies and ethnic/racial studies be brought together?". Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies. 30 (4): 815–29. doi:10.1080/13691830410001699649. S2CID 143586644.
[3] Heidi Beirich and Kevin Hicks. "Chapter 7: White Nationalism in America". In Perry, Barbara. Hate Crimes. Greenwood Publishing, 2009. p.119. "One of the primary political goals of white nationalism is to forge a white identity".
[4] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/22/world/americas/white-nationalism-explained.html?_r=0
Nazism emphasised German nationalism, including both irredentism and expansionism. Nazism held racial theories based upon a belief in the existence of an Aryan master race that was superior to all other races. The Nazis emphasised the existence of racial conflict between the Aryan race and others—particularly Jews, whom the Nazis viewed as a mixed race that had infiltrated multiple societies and was responsible for exploitation and repression of the Aryan race. The Nazis also categorised Slavs as Untermensch (sub-human).[142]
Ukrainians (Ukrainian: Українці, romanized: Ukraintsi, pronounced [ʊkrɐˈjinʲts⁽ʲ⁾i]), or the Ukrainian people,
[45] http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ukrainians?show=0&t=1293151953
are an East Slavic ethnic group native to Ukraine. They are the seventh-largest
[46] http://worldpopulationreview.com/continents/europe-population/
nation in Europe and the second-largest among the East Slavs after the Russians.
Nazism considered Slavs to be sub-human. Ukrainians are Slavs. Ukrainian Nationalism and Nazism cannot coexist. and since Ukrainian Nationalism is a form of White Nationalism, then White Nationalism and Nazism are not interchangeable terms. They are mutually exclusive. Jaygo113 ( talk) 02:07, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
All the sources that describe him a "white supremacist far-right politician" are quite old and he has since rescinded publicly his previous views, which is also referenced in the article. Since he no longer promotes any such views and states nothing of the kind any longer, I have added the description "former". I am also not sure if he still even leads the party or serves any political function, this needs to be checked and updated accordingly. Abcmaxx ( talk) 23:51, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
rescinded publicly his previous views? He's denied having said some things, as mentioned in this article that also describes him as a white supremacist and neo-Nazi [7], and has denied being a racist anti-Semite [8], but, again, WP:MANDY, that does not mean he is not a racist anti-Semite. Denying that you are a white supremacist or neo-Nazi does not equal repudiating white supremacist or neo-Nazi views. The sentences "Furthermore, Biletsky declares that he is not racist or antisemitic. In an interview he explained that he regards Israel and Japan as role models for the development of Ukraine." should probably be removed from the article then, no? And shouldn't the "former" in the lede thus be removed?
What you have just posted doesn't mention Biletsky does it though? Abcmaxx ( talk) 00:18, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
All the sources just quote him that one time from 2010. Nearly all the sources are from 10 to 6 years old. We should be careful to label whoever as a white supremacist. The Metro article I'm sorry but it just isn't very good in general. The other as I said, do not even mention him. Aside from that one quote is there any proof of him being a white supremacist? Otherwise it is just jumping to conclusions on the back of some questionable journalism. Abcmaxx ( talk) 17:36, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
Should Andriy Biletsky be described as a white supremacist in the article's lede and "Political views" section? Lkb335 ( talk) 18:04, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
In 2010, Andriy Biletsky, now leader of the National Corps, the Azov movement's political wing, reportedly said his goal was to "lead the White races of the world in a final crusade." In a statement to CNN, the Azov regiment said it "appreciates and respects Andriy Biletsky as the regiment's founder and first commander, but we have nothing to do with his political activities and the National Corps party" -- adding the former commander never made such comments.
Since when did the statements of the neo-Nazis of the "Azov regiment" become a usable source on Wikipedia?but wants us to use primary sources from far right groups as our source even when they disagree with expert commentary.) Mhorg then goes on to add some better secondary sources. The CNN source throws doubt on the oft-quoted "Untermenschen" passage, which nobody has found a primary source for. Umland is a good expert to use with attribution, but no biological racism is not synonymous with white supremacism. Moscow Times sayinh Biletsky has a white supremacist background is also old, 2015, and an opinion piece (is it's author Josh Cohen authoritative?). The KHPG source, which I consider reliable, is from 2015, and is interesting:
Even the most notorious neo-Nazi in Ukraine’s parliament recently denied having previously made white supremacist and anti-Semitic utterances – among the reasons why Viacheslav Likhachev, head of the National Minority Rights Monitoring Group and leading researcher in the field, expresses ‘cautious optimism’ about the situation with anti-Semitism and xenophobia in Ukraine... A telling detail, for example, was the fact that Andriy Biletsky, a man with a highly dubious neo-Nazi and white supremacist background, recently claimed that he had never made a foul call for a crusade by the white race against Semitic subhumans.Again, this adds doubt to the Untermenschen quote and suggests he was already changing by 2015. In short, we shouldn't state it so definitively, especially in the lead (where far right is sufficient), but more carefully in the body. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 18:09, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
@ My very best wishes: Since interviews are considered self-published material, they cannot be used for any claim about living people. This is a non-negotiable policy. M.Bitton ( talk) 01:15, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
@ Drmies: Are interviews considered as self published material or not? M.Bitton ( talk) 01:43, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
The issue here is whether we can publish "self-sourced" claim about a living person? M.Bitton ( talk) 14:11, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
Interviews are generally reliable for the fact that the interviewee said something, but not necessarily for the accuracy of what was said. The publications are merely repeating their comments, typically with minimal editing. No matter how highly respected a publication is, it does not present interviewee responses as having been checked for accuracy. In this sense, interviews should be treated like self-published material.. M.Bitton ( talk) 00:35, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
See this edit. Problem is the Times article does not name Biletsky. Therefore it seems to me it is SYNTH to assume the "white supremacist" they mention is him, even though it's highly likely, especially given "white supremacist" must be a WP:CONTENTIOUS label ("best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject"). See also WP:BLPSTYLE. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 23:09, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
@ Lute88 Please explain your your revert here
Why do you think the inclusion of a fringe and comical statement "...and said that it was a fake quotation fabricated by Sergey Lavrov to defame him" following the subject's denial - "Biletsky denied ever making such remarks", is justified. The source is an interview and thus not independent, and gordonua.com is clearly not reliable.
You reverted the telegraph source too. [1]
Some other sources include The Forward and Guardian article already present. [2] [3]
You'd notice in these sources that, they do not include justifications, ramblings and denials from the subject itself, which create a false balance and are undue. — hako9 ( talk) 16:45, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
References
— hako9 ( talk) 16:45, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
Next time have the courage of your convictions @ Lute88. — hako9 ( talk) 15:29, 6 October 2023 (UTC)