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![]() | This article contains a translation of Андрија Змајевић from sr.wikipedia. |
WikiProject Biography Assessment
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 02:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
You may also be able to find suitable categories by looking at related articles, particularly articles about similar people. Failing that, visit the appropriate work groups (which have them listed) or start browsing at Category:People. GarbledLecture933 ( talk) 03:43, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
It should be written Venetian slavic writer. He never said he wrote in Serbian language, he said he wrote in Slavic language and letters (cyrillic) were called Serbian back then. Bunch of educated people from that time who weren't serbs used it and called it serbian (since it was made by serbs) and language was called "slavic" and occasionally "illyric", "bosnian" or "serbian"."nation" didn't exist back then, at least not in sense as it is today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.180.106.198 ( talk) 10:27, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
He said he started writing in "Serbian letters" (meant Cyrillic from Serbian Language) because most of his people is using them. Who are then his people? Nation as a political term didn't existed because these areas were occupied by Venice and Ottoman empire. Ethnicity however, for sure, existed. And, also, I am little confused by what you have meant: " He never said he wrote in Serbian language, he said he wrote in Slavic language and letters (Cyrillic) were called Serbian back then." "Bunch of educated people from that time... called it serbian (since it was made by serbs)" - So, he didn't wrote in Serbian, but people called that langue he wrote as "Serbian"? No need to say anything... James Jim Moriarty ( talk) 17:05, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
This is not WP:VANDAL. I see the issue as "Croatian" identity was not sourced, however, it is also problematic to consider him as Serbian instead of Montenegrin as well. The article is not written very well, it lacks citations, reference style, while other Wikipedian articles are not reliable sources for citation/adaptation especially if are from Serbo-Croatian Wikipedias which do not follow basic editing principles and are extremely biased. It does not matter if there is "no doubt" on his identity according to some RS, we follow NPOV, WEIGHT and BALANCE. Very reliable sources, like Croatian encyclopedia ( [1], [2]), Hrvatska revija ( [3]) among others consider him as a Croatian and as such this information should be included in the article, stating something like he is considered as a Croat in Croatia or Croatian historiography or else. I will rewrite the article.-- Miki Filigranski ( talk) 11:48, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
consider him as a Croatian?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 19:30, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Zaljev hrvatskih svetaca – Boka kotorska, with the common perception about Catholicism and Orthodoxy related to Croatian or Serbian nation in the nation-building period, nevertheless the actual reality. It is about the context, and it is problematic to consider that individual members of a family had the same ethnonational identity in different time and place. The same author in " Prilog životopisu barskog nadbiskupa Andrije Zmajevića (1671.-1694.)" does note on pg. 238 and 246
Njegovi su se preci doselili početkom XVI. stoljeća s Njeguša, iz sela Vrbe, u grad Kotor. Predanje o podrijetlu iz Crne Gore iznosi i sam Zmajević ... Odvjetak roda crnogorskoga podrijetla, rođenjem Peraštanin, pripadnik obitelji koja je dala cijeli niz zaslužnika, Andrija je Zmajević imao posebno zapaženu ulogu u iznimno teško vrijeme za opstanak kršćanstva i Katoličke crkve na području Barske nadbiskupije, except that it is difficult to understand whether the Montenegrin origin is mentioned in the meaning of a country or ethnonational identity. In short, these Croatian sources do not consider him and his family of Serbian origin, but as Montenegrin and Croatian, with Croatian obviously related to Catholic faith and activity (
Osnovna saznanja, ponajprije vezana uz vrijeme Zmajevićeva obnašanja nadbiskupske časti, kao i sažeto sročene podatke iz njegova životopisa, bilježimo u djelima enciklopedijsko-leksikonske naravi, kao i u nekoliko općih pregleda povijesti Katoličke crkve u Hrvata). To make it clear, I don't care what are the Croatian and Serbian claims of the Montenegrin history, we follow and cite what's said in RS per NPOV and WEIGHT. What is the evidence and argumentation his family, and particularly Andrija, are of Serbian origin?-- Miki Filigranski ( talk) 04:09, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Sadko: Taking our previous encounters into accout how do you explain defending this type of source? You constantly preach against this. Show some consistency. SerVasi ( talk) 02:48, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
bickeringhappens to be about the sources you added to support the claim that he was from a Serbian family. Since WP:RS is a central guideline of Wikipedia, it would be nice if you would spare some time to quote the relevant passages of the sources and per WP:NONENG give an English translation for the benefit of those of us who do not read the language. -- T*U ( talk) 07:32, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
@ TU-nor: Here it is:
1) Novosti English translation:
In his literary work, he expressed multiple interest in history, culture and people of the "Kingdom of Serbia". He maintained friendly relations with the most prominent Serbian notable personalities of his day, with the Metropolitan of Herzegovina Vasili Jovanovic (Saint Basil of Ostrog) and with Patriarch Arsenije III Crnojević. He wrote about the patriarch as "our old countryman, dear friend," (this can be seen in the illustration from his capital work "Chronicle of the Church").
He knew the Church Slavonic language language and the Cyrillic alphabet and that letter, for which he noted was "used by our entire nation," he wrote. He used to say that he was a "fierce Catholic and fierce Serb".
Two of Zmajevic's great literary works have been preserved. The song "Slovinska Dubrava" and "Chronicle of the Year". It's a history of world ideas, from the beggining to the Baroque era, the whole work is written in two paragraphs - left in our national language and in Cyrillic, right in Latin, 1,000 pages long. One version is in Split and the other, more complete, in Cyrillic, is kept - the first part in the Vatican, the second in Padua. Many folk legends and traditions, folk history, epic perceptions of events and the author's personal experience of the past and present have entered into it.
Andrija Zmajevic was the born uncle of Matija Zmajevic, a Russian admiral and certainly one of the most notable members of the Perast family.
Serb-Croatian version: U svom literarnom radu ispoljavao je višestruko interesovanje prema istoriji, kulturi i narodu "kraljevstva Srbije". Održavao je prijateljske veze sa najistaknutijim srpskim prvacima svog doba, s hercegovačkim mitropolitom Vasilijem Jovanovićem (Sveti Vasilije Ostroški) i s patrijarhom Arsenijem III Čarnojevićem. O patrijarhu je pisao da je "po starini zemljak naš, drag prijatelj" (ovo se može videti u ilustraciji iz njegovog kapitalnog dela "Ljetopis crkovni").
ZNAO je crkvenoslovenski jezik i ćirilicu i tim pismom, o kojem je primetio da se njime "služi čitava naša nacija", pisao je. Za sebe je govorio da je "vatreni katolik i vatreni Srbin".
Od Zmajevićevih velikih književnih dela sačuvana su dva. Spev "Slovinska Dubrava" i "Ljetopis crkovni". To je istorija svetskih ideja, od postanja do epohe baroka, pisana dvostubačno - sleva na našem narodnom jeziku i ćirilicom, zdesna na latinskom, na 1.000 stranica. Jedna verzija nalazi se u Splitu a druga, kompletnija, na ćirilici, čuva se - prvi deo u Vatikanu, drugi u Padovi. Tu su ušle mnoge narodne legende i predanja, narodna istorija, epsko viđenje događaja i autorov lični doživljaj prošlosti i savremenosti.
Andrija Zmajević je bio rođeni stric Matije Zmajevića, ruskog admirala i svakako jednog od najzapaženijih izdanaka peraške familije.
2) Motenegrin portal - English translation:
For his claim that Matija Zmajevic considered himself to be Croat, Denis Krnic can't find a single historical source. Therefore, it most probably isn't a coincidence that he is bypassing relevant historical sources, which unequivocally indicate that the Zmajevics were a Serb family of the Catholic faith.
Serbo-Croatian: Za svoju tvrdnju da je Matija Zmajević sebe smatrao Hrvatom, Denis Krnić ne može naći nijedan istorijski izvor. Stoga, vjerovatno nije slučajno zašto dotični zaobilazi relevantne istorijske izvore, koji nedvosmisleno ukazuju da su Zmajevići bili srpska porodica katoličke vjere.
P.S: There could be a small mistake or two, but that is most probably minor. If anyone want to improve the translation - be my guest.
+ Previously provided source (Review Magazine) also states that Zmajevic collected Serb folk poetry and was a pan-Slavist. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 15:15, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
References
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article contains a translation of Андрија Змајевић from sr.wikipedia. |
WikiProject Biography Assessment
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 02:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
You may also be able to find suitable categories by looking at related articles, particularly articles about similar people. Failing that, visit the appropriate work groups (which have them listed) or start browsing at Category:People. GarbledLecture933 ( talk) 03:43, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
It should be written Venetian slavic writer. He never said he wrote in Serbian language, he said he wrote in Slavic language and letters (cyrillic) were called Serbian back then. Bunch of educated people from that time who weren't serbs used it and called it serbian (since it was made by serbs) and language was called "slavic" and occasionally "illyric", "bosnian" or "serbian"."nation" didn't exist back then, at least not in sense as it is today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.180.106.198 ( talk) 10:27, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
He said he started writing in "Serbian letters" (meant Cyrillic from Serbian Language) because most of his people is using them. Who are then his people? Nation as a political term didn't existed because these areas were occupied by Venice and Ottoman empire. Ethnicity however, for sure, existed. And, also, I am little confused by what you have meant: " He never said he wrote in Serbian language, he said he wrote in Slavic language and letters (Cyrillic) were called Serbian back then." "Bunch of educated people from that time... called it serbian (since it was made by serbs)" - So, he didn't wrote in Serbian, but people called that langue he wrote as "Serbian"? No need to say anything... James Jim Moriarty ( talk) 17:05, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
This is not WP:VANDAL. I see the issue as "Croatian" identity was not sourced, however, it is also problematic to consider him as Serbian instead of Montenegrin as well. The article is not written very well, it lacks citations, reference style, while other Wikipedian articles are not reliable sources for citation/adaptation especially if are from Serbo-Croatian Wikipedias which do not follow basic editing principles and are extremely biased. It does not matter if there is "no doubt" on his identity according to some RS, we follow NPOV, WEIGHT and BALANCE. Very reliable sources, like Croatian encyclopedia ( [1], [2]), Hrvatska revija ( [3]) among others consider him as a Croatian and as such this information should be included in the article, stating something like he is considered as a Croat in Croatia or Croatian historiography or else. I will rewrite the article.-- Miki Filigranski ( talk) 11:48, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
consider him as a Croatian?-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 19:30, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Zaljev hrvatskih svetaca – Boka kotorska, with the common perception about Catholicism and Orthodoxy related to Croatian or Serbian nation in the nation-building period, nevertheless the actual reality. It is about the context, and it is problematic to consider that individual members of a family had the same ethnonational identity in different time and place. The same author in " Prilog životopisu barskog nadbiskupa Andrije Zmajevića (1671.-1694.)" does note on pg. 238 and 246
Njegovi su se preci doselili početkom XVI. stoljeća s Njeguša, iz sela Vrbe, u grad Kotor. Predanje o podrijetlu iz Crne Gore iznosi i sam Zmajević ... Odvjetak roda crnogorskoga podrijetla, rođenjem Peraštanin, pripadnik obitelji koja je dala cijeli niz zaslužnika, Andrija je Zmajević imao posebno zapaženu ulogu u iznimno teško vrijeme za opstanak kršćanstva i Katoličke crkve na području Barske nadbiskupije, except that it is difficult to understand whether the Montenegrin origin is mentioned in the meaning of a country or ethnonational identity. In short, these Croatian sources do not consider him and his family of Serbian origin, but as Montenegrin and Croatian, with Croatian obviously related to Catholic faith and activity (
Osnovna saznanja, ponajprije vezana uz vrijeme Zmajevićeva obnašanja nadbiskupske časti, kao i sažeto sročene podatke iz njegova životopisa, bilježimo u djelima enciklopedijsko-leksikonske naravi, kao i u nekoliko općih pregleda povijesti Katoličke crkve u Hrvata). To make it clear, I don't care what are the Croatian and Serbian claims of the Montenegrin history, we follow and cite what's said in RS per NPOV and WEIGHT. What is the evidence and argumentation his family, and particularly Andrija, are of Serbian origin?-- Miki Filigranski ( talk) 04:09, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Sadko: Taking our previous encounters into accout how do you explain defending this type of source? You constantly preach against this. Show some consistency. SerVasi ( talk) 02:48, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
bickeringhappens to be about the sources you added to support the claim that he was from a Serbian family. Since WP:RS is a central guideline of Wikipedia, it would be nice if you would spare some time to quote the relevant passages of the sources and per WP:NONENG give an English translation for the benefit of those of us who do not read the language. -- T*U ( talk) 07:32, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
@ TU-nor: Here it is:
1) Novosti English translation:
In his literary work, he expressed multiple interest in history, culture and people of the "Kingdom of Serbia". He maintained friendly relations with the most prominent Serbian notable personalities of his day, with the Metropolitan of Herzegovina Vasili Jovanovic (Saint Basil of Ostrog) and with Patriarch Arsenije III Crnojević. He wrote about the patriarch as "our old countryman, dear friend," (this can be seen in the illustration from his capital work "Chronicle of the Church").
He knew the Church Slavonic language language and the Cyrillic alphabet and that letter, for which he noted was "used by our entire nation," he wrote. He used to say that he was a "fierce Catholic and fierce Serb".
Two of Zmajevic's great literary works have been preserved. The song "Slovinska Dubrava" and "Chronicle of the Year". It's a history of world ideas, from the beggining to the Baroque era, the whole work is written in two paragraphs - left in our national language and in Cyrillic, right in Latin, 1,000 pages long. One version is in Split and the other, more complete, in Cyrillic, is kept - the first part in the Vatican, the second in Padua. Many folk legends and traditions, folk history, epic perceptions of events and the author's personal experience of the past and present have entered into it.
Andrija Zmajevic was the born uncle of Matija Zmajevic, a Russian admiral and certainly one of the most notable members of the Perast family.
Serb-Croatian version: U svom literarnom radu ispoljavao je višestruko interesovanje prema istoriji, kulturi i narodu "kraljevstva Srbije". Održavao je prijateljske veze sa najistaknutijim srpskim prvacima svog doba, s hercegovačkim mitropolitom Vasilijem Jovanovićem (Sveti Vasilije Ostroški) i s patrijarhom Arsenijem III Čarnojevićem. O patrijarhu je pisao da je "po starini zemljak naš, drag prijatelj" (ovo se može videti u ilustraciji iz njegovog kapitalnog dela "Ljetopis crkovni").
ZNAO je crkvenoslovenski jezik i ćirilicu i tim pismom, o kojem je primetio da se njime "služi čitava naša nacija", pisao je. Za sebe je govorio da je "vatreni katolik i vatreni Srbin".
Od Zmajevićevih velikih književnih dela sačuvana su dva. Spev "Slovinska Dubrava" i "Ljetopis crkovni". To je istorija svetskih ideja, od postanja do epohe baroka, pisana dvostubačno - sleva na našem narodnom jeziku i ćirilicom, zdesna na latinskom, na 1.000 stranica. Jedna verzija nalazi se u Splitu a druga, kompletnija, na ćirilici, čuva se - prvi deo u Vatikanu, drugi u Padovi. Tu su ušle mnoge narodne legende i predanja, narodna istorija, epsko viđenje događaja i autorov lični doživljaj prošlosti i savremenosti.
Andrija Zmajević je bio rođeni stric Matije Zmajevića, ruskog admirala i svakako jednog od najzapaženijih izdanaka peraške familije.
2) Motenegrin portal - English translation:
For his claim that Matija Zmajevic considered himself to be Croat, Denis Krnic can't find a single historical source. Therefore, it most probably isn't a coincidence that he is bypassing relevant historical sources, which unequivocally indicate that the Zmajevics were a Serb family of the Catholic faith.
Serbo-Croatian: Za svoju tvrdnju da je Matija Zmajević sebe smatrao Hrvatom, Denis Krnić ne može naći nijedan istorijski izvor. Stoga, vjerovatno nije slučajno zašto dotični zaobilazi relevantne istorijske izvore, koji nedvosmisleno ukazuju da su Zmajevići bili srpska porodica katoličke vjere.
P.S: There could be a small mistake or two, but that is most probably minor. If anyone want to improve the translation - be my guest.
+ Previously provided source (Review Magazine) also states that Zmajevic collected Serb folk poetry and was a pan-Slavist. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 15:15, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
References