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In every sense of the word. I tried to fix up some of the more egregious material on his sexuality, though I doubt that any of it is genuinely relevant at all. Material from blogs is not RS for WP purposes, and I doubt that the gay cites are anything more than opinion poeces which are pretty far down the list of allowable material. The primary concern should be that BLPs are expected to be edited being mindful of the possibility of damage to the people involved, which I am not sure has been done here. Collect ( talk) 13:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi Collect, I'm not sure how _every_ sense of Excelsior applies (" wood wool"?), but the Emmy award is consistent with "superior." However, regarding the relevance and sourcing, you can be sure they have both been discussed at great length; if you have any doubt, please peruse the archived discussion. I agree about blogs but The Independent and The Village Voice are major newspapers. Noting a fact that has already been widely published elsewhere is unlikely to cause damage; to the contrary, the fact has been on WP for almost two years now, and AC has continued "ever upward" ( Excelsior). As for relevance, as stated previously, it's similar to other facts in the bio, e.g. family background etc. TVC 15 ( talk) 23:00, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia gennerally does not accsept self published sourses. -- Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 02:22, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
TVC 15, you reverted this edit, stating WP:RS applied. (I agree on The Independent, not sure on the Village Voice.) Are you sure it does? I might be interpreting the rules wrong but the link you gave states;
Material from mainstream news organizations is welcomed, particularly the high-quality end of the market, such as The Washington Post, The Times in Britain, and The Associated Press. Some caveats:
• News reporting is distinct from opinion pieces. Opinion pieces are only reliable for statements as to the opinion of their authors, not for statements of fact, and should be attributed in-text. In articles about living persons, only material from high-quality news organizations should be used. [Bold not mine, but kind of what I was alluding to anyway.]
In addition to the Village Voice article, a part of the links mentioned as having 'reported that Cooper is gay' are opinion pieces, so I would think they don't meet that policy the way I understand it to be. Is this correct? Would you clarify how you meant this, please? What qualifies as 'independent media' on WP by the way, is there an official definition of it? Thanks,
Elphie13 (
talk)
06:57, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi Elphie13, I'm not sure what edit you're referring to, but if you provide a link I will certainly look at it. (To do that, click the history tab on the relevant page, use the buttons to compare the before and after versions, copy the resulting URL, and paste it between brackets like this [2].) The linked sources saying AC is gay include news stories, for example The Independent article is a news story, not an opinion piece [3]. Also The Village Voice article counts as a news story because Michael Musto is a staff writer [4] on NYC social life, i.e. he reports facts about the people and events around town; he also reports on the same subject for television, as described in his WP bio. The Independent, the Voice, the Blade, and Out are all high quality publications, and Out actually put AC on the cover. I used the phrase "independent media" to mean media that are independent of AC, including conveniently The Independent. On WP, the phrase independent media redirects to alternative media, which applied to the Village Voice 50 years ago [5] although now Village Voice Media is a major national publisher. [6] I hope that addresses everything; if I missed anything, just let me know. TVC 15 ( talk) 07:29, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
The "Blade" and "Out" etc. are quite specifically and deliberately gay in nature, and should not be taken as a reliable source in a BLP on whether a person is "Gay." Per WP:BLP "Never use self-published books, zines, websites, webforums, and blogs as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article (see below). "Self-published blogs" in this context refers to personal and group blogs. Some newspapers host interactive columns that they call blogs, and these may be acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professionals and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control. " Also "Editors who find themselves in edit wars over potentially defamatory information about living persons should bring the matter to the Biographies of Living Persons noticeboard for resolution by an administrator." and the issue is whther this aggressive pointing of the "gay" finget in a BLP "potentially defamatory." Collect ( talk) 12:06, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
The Washington Blade and Out are WP:RS, as has been discussed before. If you read the article on The Washington Blade, you may note that it has been publishing for more than 30 years, has won awards from the Society of Professional Journalists and (for coverage of legal issues) the American Bar Association, and has a print circulation more than 30,000; it also has a much larger online readership including affiliates nationwide. Likewise Out magazine is very prominent, which is why The Independent cited it. Respectfully, your statement that gay-oriented publications should not be taken as a source as to whether a person is gay seems the opposite of reality, like saying the journal Paleontology [9] should not be cited as a source as to whether someone is a paleontologist, or Ebony magazine should not be taken as a source on whether someone is African American. These are high quality sources, with fact checking departments and long histories of publication, not self-published sources or blogs. There is no issue of defamation: first, the fact is reliably sourced and true; second, although calling someone gay who wasn't gay used to be considered 'slander per se' back in the days when sodomy was a crime, that is no longer the case. This matter has been brought to the BLP noticeboard and has been discussed at length, including administrators. I am not sure what you mean when you refer to "this aggressive pointing of the "gay" finger" but simply mentioning he's gay is not "aggressive," and besides the Out magazine cover was very prominent on newsstands around the country including in NYC where AC lives. There are zero reports of him ever denying it; he doesn't have to comment but it is a reliably sourced fact of comparable relevance to the other facts generally reported in the personal life sections in journalists' biographies. TVC 15 ( talk) 17:19, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
As stated above, they're news stories, not just opinion pieces. You misapply the "are you still" question because the problem with that question is that any answer, yes or no, would imply an admission of either past or current conduct. As reported in the Voice, AC was asked about the Out story, and said he had no comment. You seem to object to gay publications as POV, but that is not really fair; if a Dallas newspaper reports that someone is from Dallas, I think you would agree it's credible, not POV. I find myself in the awkward position of having to defend from both sides, which I guess makes me neutral: the fact is reliably sourced and therefore can be included, but AC is not required to make a news story out of it. TVC 15 ( talk) 18:31, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Your welcome TVC15!!! I do not think that the quotes belong in the article b/c well, think about it, is Naff's comment really necessary??? I mean is it going to destroy the article if we do not have it in there. I think what would be good is if that we remembered that we should not give a f**k. Hope this helps!!! I am getting tired of this. To me it is just one user saying "we need the quotes" and the rest are saying "no, we don't". That does not mean I am going to quit. It just means that I don't think we should have to cater to the needs of one user. -- Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 22:08, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
The sequence does seem to have got confusing, but as far as I can tell the only remaining question is which sources to leave in the note. Having now looked at all of them, I think two could reasonably be deleted. The Smith (2005) link doesn't seem to work, i.e. it links to a book but not to any specific page, so the link should be fixed or removed. [see below] The Naff link is to his blog [comment, see below], and as shown above 3rd-party blogs are not good sources for a BLP. The other sources all report the fact as a fact, including the Blade link from 2003, and I think they should stay.
TVC 15 (
talk)
02:16, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
So are we discussing the Naff comments??? I still do not think they belong in the article. This has been dragging on for to long. Some on needs to back off. There have been countless discussions about this and it is never ending (or is seems so to me). Maybe we should ignore all the rules and remember not to give a f**k. "Benjiboi", I can tell you feel strongly about this, or you would not keep on discussing this. I do not see why Naff's comments are relevant nor does anyone else. As "TVC 15" says, we are from around the world and with a wide range of opinions. I'm a conservative republican from Minnesota who does not even think homosexuality is moral. I'm not going to debate my beliefs on this talk page. The other user do seem more liberal then me (that is my personal opinion, I could be wrong). It's not like we are all sock puppets of one another. I am not telling you to give up but am telling you to think it over, and see if this is worth your effort. I am not trying to attack you personally or in any other way. I do think that this same discussion has gone on for way to long, I just can't see why we cannot come to a decision. I have been thinking and we could keep Naff's comments in the notes at the most. That is the only thing I can think of now. I will suggest something else if I think of it. Sorry if this ran on for too long!!! -- Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 20:05, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
So. Why should we have to talk about this so much. Could you please tell me exactly what you mean "Benjiboi". Feel free to post on my talk page. -- Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 01:21, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Why shouldn't we go with majority rules here? Because it's inconvenient to you? None of us in here nor on the BLP noticeboard think this improves the article but you, it would be polite to regard our right to opinions equal to yours and not collectively accuse us all of bias because we disagree with you. The inclusion or exclusion of actual reports on his sexuality is a different discussion with Collect entirely, I'm talking about your edit, which everyone else also objects to.
Aside from the name calling in the link from note 1, in the link from your added sentence Naff puts words in Coopers mouth to criticize him, and we should not quote or link to such a factually wrong article in Cooper's BLP. While not directly name-calling Cooper here, Naff does everything short of actually doing that. The article is slanderous
[11], and it would be irresponsible of us to link to this source on Coopers page, especially in the BLP. (I still have no idea of why that link to people magazine is here, it doesn't even mention Cooper.)
Olbermann’s comments and facts are inaccurate as well.
And also, how other people feel on what decisions Cooper should make in his personal life says more about them and their individual norms than it does about what decisions Cooper should make in his personal life. For all the perceived obligations to Naff and Olbermann by themselves to discuss things they want him to discuss, there´s no actual obligation here to tell anything to anyone, whether it's his name or his pin code, if he thinks that´s the right thing to do. It's not as if he signed a contract with the gay community to do so that he's violating, or breaking the law by not telling. The criticism comes from a sense of entitlement, while other persons can have strong personal opinions on this based on how they feel (famous) gay people should behave, in this instance the subject of that discussion being Cooper, it really is more about their own beliefs of the first topic than that it´s about Cooper, who has his own reasons and norms and priorities and a right to them. Just like he has no obligation to change other things about himself because people disagree for their own reasoning, like being a Christian. So this is insignificant to Coopers biography and it does make it seem like we´re just putting it in to make a point.
Elphie13 (
talk)
17:53, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Then why don't we just say why Ann Coultor criticized Cooper (she does on media bias in her new book guilty). Isn't her opinion just as good as Naff's. I am going by your logic Benjiboi. If Naff's comments are so important then maybe I should ask I Ann's comments can be put in the article??? Can they, or is she too conservative??? (Note: am just trying to prove a point.) And another thing is that good Wikipedian do not disrupt Wikipedia just to prove there point.-- Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 23:24, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Looking at the five participants' views in this discussion, it looks like we have four in favor of removing the Naff/Olbermann sentence, and only one in favor of keeping it, even after bringing the issue to the BLP noticeboard. I would say that is a WP:CONSENSUS for removal. I have said elsewhere that I personally would not delete this version of the sentence, but just in case anyone else deletes it, I'm writing here to summarize what appears to be consensus at this point.
Also, User:Benjiboi, you seem to use the word "we" a lot, as if you were a specially authorized representative of Wikipedia. In fact, we are all equally participants in Wikipedia, and every relevant policy runs contrary to your statements of what "we" do. Likewise, you seem to present yourself as an authorized representative of the gay community generally, but your views are atypical and as far as I am aware no one elected you to that capacity. Even the Blade has limited Naff's criticisms to his blog comments, and no other Blade editor has expressed agreement with him. You wrote above of AC, "His sexuality is not verifiable in reliable sources - by our standards...." Your statement is simply false, as has been demonstrated repeatedly by reference to WP:RS and the publications (including the Blade) that have reported it as a fact. You seem to have have switched sides in that debate in order to save the reference to Naff and Olbermann. The article cites multiple reliable sources ( WP:RS) stating that AC is gay. In contrast, Naff's blog comments have no business being cited in a WP:BLP. Please stop conflating the issue of whether to include the reliably sourced fact that AC is gay with the entirely separate issue of whether to include Naff and Olbermann's false criticisms. Of the five participants in this discussion, I think we have at least three (probably four) in favor of the reliably sourced fact that he's gay, but no one agrees with you about including the false criticisms from Naff and Olbermann. You finally acknowledged the relevance of the flat earthers, which I pointed out in citing WP:UNDUE, so please read that policy. Including Olbermann and especially Naff gives them undue weight. TVC 15 ( talk) 01:12, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Well benjiboi, you are the only one that wants the comments. Does anyone want me to get an admin to say what weneed to do. I did not want the Coultor comments in the article, her comments I did (and sometimes do) disagree with her. She is not always right, and her comments do not belong in the article. I was just trying to make a point. If, however we were going to do a critismas section (which we are not) thay would belong there. It is the same with the other two comments. And I do agree with benjiboi on that we do not have 100% proof that AC is gay. We cannot prove beyond reasonible doubt that AC is in fact a homosexual. Nor can we prove that he is a bisexual or heterosexual. He just does not talk about it, so until he does, we can never be 100% sure. That is my opionion and it is not likely to change. TVC 15, that is where I disagree with you. Where I agree with you is that the accusation of hypocracy are falsehoods. And Elphie13, why did you bring the Bush administtartion (BA) into this, AC and the BA are not the same thing, don't compare them at all. Really sorry about the spelling!!! -- Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 17:18, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Elphie13!!! BTW what contrey do you live in??? -- Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 21:51, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
I was the one that suggested the admin, Benjiboi. The blog is not notable. And BTW, there is no free speech on Wikipedia. So if you want to complain about there being no free speech for you a Naff then fine, b/c there is none. If you want to bi**h abut Ac then get a blog. Sorry if I sound mean but I think that Elphie13, TVC15, and I are getting sick of you complaining about this. Am I right??? -- Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 18:47, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
Well quotes are out of there so that is good. I don't see why the section needs to be rewrriten. If you could comment on my talk page on how you would like to rewrite the section (i.e. what you would to include and a rough draft if you have time, also include it on this talk page).I do not think I am aking too much. -- Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 22:30, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
As of 02:09, 5 November 2006 the article still had a good chunk of trivia that I had found online, but hadn't noticed that it was being removed because of the push for proper refs. So I will be adding it back in, but with real refs this time ;) -- Limulus 08:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
---
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-- Limulus 23:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Limulus 07:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Limulus, he is not writing for Details magazine anymore. The last edition he contributed was the October 2005 issue with the article The Face of Famine [13] Worldnewsjunkie 22:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Also, Cooper, delivered the Class Day Address, (May 21, 2006) at Yale University [14] Worldnewsjunkie 22:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I added the Yale ref; regarding Details it says "Cooper also is a free-lance writer whose articles have appeared in many other outlets, including Details magazine." How would you change that? Speaking of, *you* could make these edits now; the article is no longer semi-protected, remember? :) -- Limulus 20:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
His book article Dispatches from the Edge needs to be made, it's the work of a prominent journalist and was on the bestseller list so I think it's notable enough to have an article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.43.101 ( talk) 04:27, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Parodies himself. [15] Banjeboi 21:20, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
The lede is messy and needs expanding. It should be a stand alone summary article of the subject. -- Banjeboi 21:21, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the above external links as not conforming to our WP:EL policy which, in essence, is that we include links to the subject itself - their links, within reason - and appropriate links that would add to our reader's understanding if the article was written at an featured article status. For instance, an article about major baseball league may have a link to a reliable site that fully compares team statistics whereas the article may only touch on that subject. Having stated that many of these might be helpful for background info or even sourcing. -- Banjeboi 19:28, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
he mentioned the oath fumble first. 69.141.11.242 ( talk) 17:50, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Is he or isn't he? The article waffles on this point without giving a definitive answer! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.29.155.152 ( talk) 17:30, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
I find it somewhat hypocritical for Wikipedia to include speculation about his private lifestyle choice. There is absolutely no proof that Anderson Cooper is a homosexual, yet you include several allegations by "independent press". What is the difference between that and gossip? Where are your standards? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.74.65.48 ( talk) 18:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Well, first you should sign your post by using the "four tides" (i.e.~~~~). And Cooper has never talked about wether or not he is gay so we really do not know. -- Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 17:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
"Anderson Cooper...has in the past publicly acknowledged that he is gay." [17] The article is written cautiously because he has avoided commenting on that part of his personal life in interviews. The fact would not be included at all if it were not reliably sourced, but the sources report it without quoting him on it, so the article says simply that they report it. TVC 15 ( talk) 23:29, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
While I neither know nor care whether the man is gay or not, I find it remarkable that 14 lines of text are devoted to a "note" sourcing the issue - and that doesn't take into account the lines in the References. Hell, the entire "Personal" section the piece is only 15 lines (of which 1/3 is devoted to the same issue.) Does this strike anyone besides me as a bit overdone?Frankly, one can only wonder how much space would be devoted to the topic were he to unequivocally announce that he is or is not gay. The attention to this makes the piece read more like a tabloid than an encyclopedia. Irish Melkite ( talk) 12:25, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
With regard to the length of the note, I agree it might add up to undue weight. It got that way because, no matter how many reliable sources were found, some editors insisted more were needed. (In some instances, objections seemed motivated by disapproval of the fact itself, and a related desire to suppress it, regardless of sources.) Eventually this one fact had many more sources than any other fact in the article. The issue is, paring down the sources might invite a return to the edit war that necessitated them. Deleting "group=note" from the source code might convert the note into a standard reference, which would resolve the emphasis issue without creating a sourcing issue. TVC 15 ( talk) 20:31, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
I converted the note to an ordinary reference, without making any other changes, and it seemed to work. TVC 15 ( talk) 01:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I think that listing any LGBT categories may be premature until he has confirmed his sexual orientation. There have been myriad reports that Tom Cruise is gay, but editors have refrained from applying the categories to him. If there are no objections in the next couple of days, I'll remove them. C1k3 ( talk) 02:00, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
And why the fuck is there a picture of him with another guy titled "Anderson Cooper with his boyfriend, Julio Cesar Recio, at the Westminster Kennel Club dog show in New York City in 2006."? I'm deleting that shit.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.137.28.22 ( talk) 09:49, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Cooper identified himself as gay. Since then, he has never taken it back, and is still homosexual. He now refuses to talk about his personal life. Many mainstream media sources have mentioned his sexual orientation. Why then, does this article not have any LGBT categories, and this talk page not have an LGBT Project banner on it? Lambda 3 ( talk) 18:34, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
With regard to the category tags, the issue was discussed, and the discussion has since been archived. At that time, there were two conflicting policies; one favored including the category tag, the other favored omitting it. Unaware of the second policy, I added the tag, and others removed it. Both policy pages now seem to favor omitting the tag ( Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Categories, Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality). The article continues to be festooned with category tags related to ethnicity, despite a complete absence of references to support them, but the issue of different policies for different categories is a topic for another page.
With regard to note vs. reference, I saw today that Benjiboi had converted the reference back to a note, without discussion. As Irish Melkite observed above, the note was overdone. It stood out from everything else in the article, in a way that amounted to undue weight. So, I have converted the note back to a reference like all the others. TVC 15 ( talk) 00:18, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
I have a feeling that the folks at CNN may have something to do with AC not being labeled "gay". Dreammaker182 ( talk) 01:17, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
"He has, however, discussed his desire to have a family and children." Just for everyone out there, that statement does not automatically mean he's straight. Freddie Mercury also had a deep desire to have a family and children of his own, that did not change what he was. Also, Anderson didn't specifically state that he wanted a wife, by "family and children", he could just as well mean a same-sex partner and kids, since children with same-sex parents are not too entirely uncommon anymore. However, I am not definitively saying he is gay, the point is he has never set the record straight, so to speak, on his sexual orientation/preference. There no reliable photographs of him with any significant other, man or woman. Hell, he could be asexual for all we know. So until he reveals that aspect of his life to the public, everything at this point is just hearsay, nothing more. Draw your own personal conclusions about Anderson Cooper if you like, but don't think that your suspicions or "gaydar" will pass as reliable information regarding AC's personal life.
The interviewer made the same point about the family and children quote, but "Anderson Cooper...has in the past publicly acknowledged that he is gay." [18] (The Washington Blade link isn't working right now, while they sort out who will own the archive, but it was working when retrieved above.) People really should read more before commenting. TVC 15 ( talk) 02:08, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
Several sources say he's gay. I seriously think he's gay. But so what. Being gay has no relevance to his job as a journalist, unless and until it's reliably shown that it does. Anderson makes a big deal about not letting his personal life intrude into his professional life. — Becksguy ( talk) 08:20, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
Hullaballoo Wolfowitz undid my edit on Cooper's companion Benjamin Maisani on the basis that Maisani is non-notable. Google search of "Benjamin Maisani" (in quote marks) returns 'About 17,700 results', proving that Maisani is notable. There is no doubt that Maisani is Cooper's boyfriend, the NY Post snippet I quoted us just one source. Why is Wikipedia denying the obvious? Newtaste ( talk) 14:06, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Guys, come on. This debate has been raging on for, like, over half a decade. He's never married, and has been seen with two men over the past seven years. He flew to China with his current one, Ben, last year. In a debate about gay marriage, he even said, "we pay taxes, too," (which was revised in a CNN transcript as "you pay taxes, too," probably to keep ambiguity prevalent). Not to sound offensive, but this would be like us not acknowledging the fact that he is Caucasian because he never said so publicly. He's also been This is nothing to make a big deal out of, but why shouldn't we list this article in its subject's proper category? He doesn't make his sexual orientation explicit because he doesn't like to talk about his personal life, and coming out just isn't that big of a thing anymore. Off the site, it's consensus, too. CPGACoast ( talk) 22:49, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
"info box" has line "official site" styled as a link. that link sends one to http://www.cnn.com/CNN/anchors_reporters/cooper.anderson.html"
that is not an "official" website; it is merely a bio page on the website of his current employer.
description should be changed (to reflect reality) to read "cooper's biography on cnn.com." because i am not a registered editor and the article is protected(*), i obviously cannot make the adjustment myself. i trust a registered editor will drift along, see this comment, concur and make the change.
(*) which raises the questions: how long has it been padlocked? how many different times? is it vandalized heavily and immediately each time it's unlocked or are some wikipedians being overly proctective? perhaps some regular watcher of the article can answer (i don't have capacity right now to ferret out the answers). -- 71.183.238.134 ( talk) 21:47, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
This was just related on AC360, and appears to be notable enough to report. I just wanted to note that I added it in case there's a dispute. I welcome a discussion of whether it's notable; it fits well with the discussion of his family and childhood and was related by Cooper himself. Wellspring ( talk) 02:47, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
In every sense of the word. I tried to fix up some of the more egregious material on his sexuality, though I doubt that any of it is genuinely relevant at all. Material from blogs is not RS for WP purposes, and I doubt that the gay cites are anything more than opinion poeces which are pretty far down the list of allowable material. The primary concern should be that BLPs are expected to be edited being mindful of the possibility of damage to the people involved, which I am not sure has been done here. Collect ( talk) 13:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi Collect, I'm not sure how _every_ sense of Excelsior applies (" wood wool"?), but the Emmy award is consistent with "superior." However, regarding the relevance and sourcing, you can be sure they have both been discussed at great length; if you have any doubt, please peruse the archived discussion. I agree about blogs but The Independent and The Village Voice are major newspapers. Noting a fact that has already been widely published elsewhere is unlikely to cause damage; to the contrary, the fact has been on WP for almost two years now, and AC has continued "ever upward" ( Excelsior). As for relevance, as stated previously, it's similar to other facts in the bio, e.g. family background etc. TVC 15 ( talk) 23:00, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia gennerally does not accsept self published sourses. -- Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 02:22, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
TVC 15, you reverted this edit, stating WP:RS applied. (I agree on The Independent, not sure on the Village Voice.) Are you sure it does? I might be interpreting the rules wrong but the link you gave states;
Material from mainstream news organizations is welcomed, particularly the high-quality end of the market, such as The Washington Post, The Times in Britain, and The Associated Press. Some caveats:
• News reporting is distinct from opinion pieces. Opinion pieces are only reliable for statements as to the opinion of their authors, not for statements of fact, and should be attributed in-text. In articles about living persons, only material from high-quality news organizations should be used. [Bold not mine, but kind of what I was alluding to anyway.]
In addition to the Village Voice article, a part of the links mentioned as having 'reported that Cooper is gay' are opinion pieces, so I would think they don't meet that policy the way I understand it to be. Is this correct? Would you clarify how you meant this, please? What qualifies as 'independent media' on WP by the way, is there an official definition of it? Thanks,
Elphie13 (
talk)
06:57, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi Elphie13, I'm not sure what edit you're referring to, but if you provide a link I will certainly look at it. (To do that, click the history tab on the relevant page, use the buttons to compare the before and after versions, copy the resulting URL, and paste it between brackets like this [2].) The linked sources saying AC is gay include news stories, for example The Independent article is a news story, not an opinion piece [3]. Also The Village Voice article counts as a news story because Michael Musto is a staff writer [4] on NYC social life, i.e. he reports facts about the people and events around town; he also reports on the same subject for television, as described in his WP bio. The Independent, the Voice, the Blade, and Out are all high quality publications, and Out actually put AC on the cover. I used the phrase "independent media" to mean media that are independent of AC, including conveniently The Independent. On WP, the phrase independent media redirects to alternative media, which applied to the Village Voice 50 years ago [5] although now Village Voice Media is a major national publisher. [6] I hope that addresses everything; if I missed anything, just let me know. TVC 15 ( talk) 07:29, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
The "Blade" and "Out" etc. are quite specifically and deliberately gay in nature, and should not be taken as a reliable source in a BLP on whether a person is "Gay." Per WP:BLP "Never use self-published books, zines, websites, webforums, and blogs as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article (see below). "Self-published blogs" in this context refers to personal and group blogs. Some newspapers host interactive columns that they call blogs, and these may be acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professionals and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control. " Also "Editors who find themselves in edit wars over potentially defamatory information about living persons should bring the matter to the Biographies of Living Persons noticeboard for resolution by an administrator." and the issue is whther this aggressive pointing of the "gay" finget in a BLP "potentially defamatory." Collect ( talk) 12:06, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
The Washington Blade and Out are WP:RS, as has been discussed before. If you read the article on The Washington Blade, you may note that it has been publishing for more than 30 years, has won awards from the Society of Professional Journalists and (for coverage of legal issues) the American Bar Association, and has a print circulation more than 30,000; it also has a much larger online readership including affiliates nationwide. Likewise Out magazine is very prominent, which is why The Independent cited it. Respectfully, your statement that gay-oriented publications should not be taken as a source as to whether a person is gay seems the opposite of reality, like saying the journal Paleontology [9] should not be cited as a source as to whether someone is a paleontologist, or Ebony magazine should not be taken as a source on whether someone is African American. These are high quality sources, with fact checking departments and long histories of publication, not self-published sources or blogs. There is no issue of defamation: first, the fact is reliably sourced and true; second, although calling someone gay who wasn't gay used to be considered 'slander per se' back in the days when sodomy was a crime, that is no longer the case. This matter has been brought to the BLP noticeboard and has been discussed at length, including administrators. I am not sure what you mean when you refer to "this aggressive pointing of the "gay" finger" but simply mentioning he's gay is not "aggressive," and besides the Out magazine cover was very prominent on newsstands around the country including in NYC where AC lives. There are zero reports of him ever denying it; he doesn't have to comment but it is a reliably sourced fact of comparable relevance to the other facts generally reported in the personal life sections in journalists' biographies. TVC 15 ( talk) 17:19, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
As stated above, they're news stories, not just opinion pieces. You misapply the "are you still" question because the problem with that question is that any answer, yes or no, would imply an admission of either past or current conduct. As reported in the Voice, AC was asked about the Out story, and said he had no comment. You seem to object to gay publications as POV, but that is not really fair; if a Dallas newspaper reports that someone is from Dallas, I think you would agree it's credible, not POV. I find myself in the awkward position of having to defend from both sides, which I guess makes me neutral: the fact is reliably sourced and therefore can be included, but AC is not required to make a news story out of it. TVC 15 ( talk) 18:31, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Your welcome TVC15!!! I do not think that the quotes belong in the article b/c well, think about it, is Naff's comment really necessary??? I mean is it going to destroy the article if we do not have it in there. I think what would be good is if that we remembered that we should not give a f**k. Hope this helps!!! I am getting tired of this. To me it is just one user saying "we need the quotes" and the rest are saying "no, we don't". That does not mean I am going to quit. It just means that I don't think we should have to cater to the needs of one user. -- Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 22:08, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
The sequence does seem to have got confusing, but as far as I can tell the only remaining question is which sources to leave in the note. Having now looked at all of them, I think two could reasonably be deleted. The Smith (2005) link doesn't seem to work, i.e. it links to a book but not to any specific page, so the link should be fixed or removed. [see below] The Naff link is to his blog [comment, see below], and as shown above 3rd-party blogs are not good sources for a BLP. The other sources all report the fact as a fact, including the Blade link from 2003, and I think they should stay.
TVC 15 (
talk)
02:16, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
So are we discussing the Naff comments??? I still do not think they belong in the article. This has been dragging on for to long. Some on needs to back off. There have been countless discussions about this and it is never ending (or is seems so to me). Maybe we should ignore all the rules and remember not to give a f**k. "Benjiboi", I can tell you feel strongly about this, or you would not keep on discussing this. I do not see why Naff's comments are relevant nor does anyone else. As "TVC 15" says, we are from around the world and with a wide range of opinions. I'm a conservative republican from Minnesota who does not even think homosexuality is moral. I'm not going to debate my beliefs on this talk page. The other user do seem more liberal then me (that is my personal opinion, I could be wrong). It's not like we are all sock puppets of one another. I am not telling you to give up but am telling you to think it over, and see if this is worth your effort. I am not trying to attack you personally or in any other way. I do think that this same discussion has gone on for way to long, I just can't see why we cannot come to a decision. I have been thinking and we could keep Naff's comments in the notes at the most. That is the only thing I can think of now. I will suggest something else if I think of it. Sorry if this ran on for too long!!! -- Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 20:05, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
So. Why should we have to talk about this so much. Could you please tell me exactly what you mean "Benjiboi". Feel free to post on my talk page. -- Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 01:21, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Why shouldn't we go with majority rules here? Because it's inconvenient to you? None of us in here nor on the BLP noticeboard think this improves the article but you, it would be polite to regard our right to opinions equal to yours and not collectively accuse us all of bias because we disagree with you. The inclusion or exclusion of actual reports on his sexuality is a different discussion with Collect entirely, I'm talking about your edit, which everyone else also objects to.
Aside from the name calling in the link from note 1, in the link from your added sentence Naff puts words in Coopers mouth to criticize him, and we should not quote or link to such a factually wrong article in Cooper's BLP. While not directly name-calling Cooper here, Naff does everything short of actually doing that. The article is slanderous
[11], and it would be irresponsible of us to link to this source on Coopers page, especially in the BLP. (I still have no idea of why that link to people magazine is here, it doesn't even mention Cooper.)
Olbermann’s comments and facts are inaccurate as well.
And also, how other people feel on what decisions Cooper should make in his personal life says more about them and their individual norms than it does about what decisions Cooper should make in his personal life. For all the perceived obligations to Naff and Olbermann by themselves to discuss things they want him to discuss, there´s no actual obligation here to tell anything to anyone, whether it's his name or his pin code, if he thinks that´s the right thing to do. It's not as if he signed a contract with the gay community to do so that he's violating, or breaking the law by not telling. The criticism comes from a sense of entitlement, while other persons can have strong personal opinions on this based on how they feel (famous) gay people should behave, in this instance the subject of that discussion being Cooper, it really is more about their own beliefs of the first topic than that it´s about Cooper, who has his own reasons and norms and priorities and a right to them. Just like he has no obligation to change other things about himself because people disagree for their own reasoning, like being a Christian. So this is insignificant to Coopers biography and it does make it seem like we´re just putting it in to make a point.
Elphie13 (
talk)
17:53, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Then why don't we just say why Ann Coultor criticized Cooper (she does on media bias in her new book guilty). Isn't her opinion just as good as Naff's. I am going by your logic Benjiboi. If Naff's comments are so important then maybe I should ask I Ann's comments can be put in the article??? Can they, or is she too conservative??? (Note: am just trying to prove a point.) And another thing is that good Wikipedian do not disrupt Wikipedia just to prove there point.-- Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 23:24, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Looking at the five participants' views in this discussion, it looks like we have four in favor of removing the Naff/Olbermann sentence, and only one in favor of keeping it, even after bringing the issue to the BLP noticeboard. I would say that is a WP:CONSENSUS for removal. I have said elsewhere that I personally would not delete this version of the sentence, but just in case anyone else deletes it, I'm writing here to summarize what appears to be consensus at this point.
Also, User:Benjiboi, you seem to use the word "we" a lot, as if you were a specially authorized representative of Wikipedia. In fact, we are all equally participants in Wikipedia, and every relevant policy runs contrary to your statements of what "we" do. Likewise, you seem to present yourself as an authorized representative of the gay community generally, but your views are atypical and as far as I am aware no one elected you to that capacity. Even the Blade has limited Naff's criticisms to his blog comments, and no other Blade editor has expressed agreement with him. You wrote above of AC, "His sexuality is not verifiable in reliable sources - by our standards...." Your statement is simply false, as has been demonstrated repeatedly by reference to WP:RS and the publications (including the Blade) that have reported it as a fact. You seem to have have switched sides in that debate in order to save the reference to Naff and Olbermann. The article cites multiple reliable sources ( WP:RS) stating that AC is gay. In contrast, Naff's blog comments have no business being cited in a WP:BLP. Please stop conflating the issue of whether to include the reliably sourced fact that AC is gay with the entirely separate issue of whether to include Naff and Olbermann's false criticisms. Of the five participants in this discussion, I think we have at least three (probably four) in favor of the reliably sourced fact that he's gay, but no one agrees with you about including the false criticisms from Naff and Olbermann. You finally acknowledged the relevance of the flat earthers, which I pointed out in citing WP:UNDUE, so please read that policy. Including Olbermann and especially Naff gives them undue weight. TVC 15 ( talk) 01:12, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Well benjiboi, you are the only one that wants the comments. Does anyone want me to get an admin to say what weneed to do. I did not want the Coultor comments in the article, her comments I did (and sometimes do) disagree with her. She is not always right, and her comments do not belong in the article. I was just trying to make a point. If, however we were going to do a critismas section (which we are not) thay would belong there. It is the same with the other two comments. And I do agree with benjiboi on that we do not have 100% proof that AC is gay. We cannot prove beyond reasonible doubt that AC is in fact a homosexual. Nor can we prove that he is a bisexual or heterosexual. He just does not talk about it, so until he does, we can never be 100% sure. That is my opionion and it is not likely to change. TVC 15, that is where I disagree with you. Where I agree with you is that the accusation of hypocracy are falsehoods. And Elphie13, why did you bring the Bush administtartion (BA) into this, AC and the BA are not the same thing, don't compare them at all. Really sorry about the spelling!!! -- Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 17:18, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Elphie13!!! BTW what contrey do you live in??? -- Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 21:51, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
I was the one that suggested the admin, Benjiboi. The blog is not notable. And BTW, there is no free speech on Wikipedia. So if you want to complain about there being no free speech for you a Naff then fine, b/c there is none. If you want to bi**h abut Ac then get a blog. Sorry if I sound mean but I think that Elphie13, TVC15, and I are getting sick of you complaining about this. Am I right??? -- Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 18:47, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
Well quotes are out of there so that is good. I don't see why the section needs to be rewrriten. If you could comment on my talk page on how you would like to rewrite the section (i.e. what you would to include and a rough draft if you have time, also include it on this talk page).I do not think I am aking too much. -- Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 22:30, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
As of 02:09, 5 November 2006 the article still had a good chunk of trivia that I had found online, but hadn't noticed that it was being removed because of the push for proper refs. So I will be adding it back in, but with real refs this time ;) -- Limulus 08:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
---
---
-- Limulus 23:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Limulus 07:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Limulus, he is not writing for Details magazine anymore. The last edition he contributed was the October 2005 issue with the article The Face of Famine [13] Worldnewsjunkie 22:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Also, Cooper, delivered the Class Day Address, (May 21, 2006) at Yale University [14] Worldnewsjunkie 22:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I added the Yale ref; regarding Details it says "Cooper also is a free-lance writer whose articles have appeared in many other outlets, including Details magazine." How would you change that? Speaking of, *you* could make these edits now; the article is no longer semi-protected, remember? :) -- Limulus 20:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
His book article Dispatches from the Edge needs to be made, it's the work of a prominent journalist and was on the bestseller list so I think it's notable enough to have an article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.43.101 ( talk) 04:27, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Parodies himself. [15] Banjeboi 21:20, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
The lede is messy and needs expanding. It should be a stand alone summary article of the subject. -- Banjeboi 21:21, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the above external links as not conforming to our WP:EL policy which, in essence, is that we include links to the subject itself - their links, within reason - and appropriate links that would add to our reader's understanding if the article was written at an featured article status. For instance, an article about major baseball league may have a link to a reliable site that fully compares team statistics whereas the article may only touch on that subject. Having stated that many of these might be helpful for background info or even sourcing. -- Banjeboi 19:28, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
he mentioned the oath fumble first. 69.141.11.242 ( talk) 17:50, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Is he or isn't he? The article waffles on this point without giving a definitive answer! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.29.155.152 ( talk) 17:30, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
I find it somewhat hypocritical for Wikipedia to include speculation about his private lifestyle choice. There is absolutely no proof that Anderson Cooper is a homosexual, yet you include several allegations by "independent press". What is the difference between that and gossip? Where are your standards? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.74.65.48 ( talk) 18:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Well, first you should sign your post by using the "four tides" (i.e.~~~~). And Cooper has never talked about wether or not he is gay so we really do not know. -- Miagirljmw14 Miagirljmw~talk 17:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
"Anderson Cooper...has in the past publicly acknowledged that he is gay." [17] The article is written cautiously because he has avoided commenting on that part of his personal life in interviews. The fact would not be included at all if it were not reliably sourced, but the sources report it without quoting him on it, so the article says simply that they report it. TVC 15 ( talk) 23:29, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
While I neither know nor care whether the man is gay or not, I find it remarkable that 14 lines of text are devoted to a "note" sourcing the issue - and that doesn't take into account the lines in the References. Hell, the entire "Personal" section the piece is only 15 lines (of which 1/3 is devoted to the same issue.) Does this strike anyone besides me as a bit overdone?Frankly, one can only wonder how much space would be devoted to the topic were he to unequivocally announce that he is or is not gay. The attention to this makes the piece read more like a tabloid than an encyclopedia. Irish Melkite ( talk) 12:25, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
With regard to the length of the note, I agree it might add up to undue weight. It got that way because, no matter how many reliable sources were found, some editors insisted more were needed. (In some instances, objections seemed motivated by disapproval of the fact itself, and a related desire to suppress it, regardless of sources.) Eventually this one fact had many more sources than any other fact in the article. The issue is, paring down the sources might invite a return to the edit war that necessitated them. Deleting "group=note" from the source code might convert the note into a standard reference, which would resolve the emphasis issue without creating a sourcing issue. TVC 15 ( talk) 20:31, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
I converted the note to an ordinary reference, without making any other changes, and it seemed to work. TVC 15 ( talk) 01:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I think that listing any LGBT categories may be premature until he has confirmed his sexual orientation. There have been myriad reports that Tom Cruise is gay, but editors have refrained from applying the categories to him. If there are no objections in the next couple of days, I'll remove them. C1k3 ( talk) 02:00, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
And why the fuck is there a picture of him with another guy titled "Anderson Cooper with his boyfriend, Julio Cesar Recio, at the Westminster Kennel Club dog show in New York City in 2006."? I'm deleting that shit.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.137.28.22 ( talk) 09:49, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Cooper identified himself as gay. Since then, he has never taken it back, and is still homosexual. He now refuses to talk about his personal life. Many mainstream media sources have mentioned his sexual orientation. Why then, does this article not have any LGBT categories, and this talk page not have an LGBT Project banner on it? Lambda 3 ( talk) 18:34, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
With regard to the category tags, the issue was discussed, and the discussion has since been archived. At that time, there were two conflicting policies; one favored including the category tag, the other favored omitting it. Unaware of the second policy, I added the tag, and others removed it. Both policy pages now seem to favor omitting the tag ( Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Categories, Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality). The article continues to be festooned with category tags related to ethnicity, despite a complete absence of references to support them, but the issue of different policies for different categories is a topic for another page.
With regard to note vs. reference, I saw today that Benjiboi had converted the reference back to a note, without discussion. As Irish Melkite observed above, the note was overdone. It stood out from everything else in the article, in a way that amounted to undue weight. So, I have converted the note back to a reference like all the others. TVC 15 ( talk) 00:18, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
I have a feeling that the folks at CNN may have something to do with AC not being labeled "gay". Dreammaker182 ( talk) 01:17, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
"He has, however, discussed his desire to have a family and children." Just for everyone out there, that statement does not automatically mean he's straight. Freddie Mercury also had a deep desire to have a family and children of his own, that did not change what he was. Also, Anderson didn't specifically state that he wanted a wife, by "family and children", he could just as well mean a same-sex partner and kids, since children with same-sex parents are not too entirely uncommon anymore. However, I am not definitively saying he is gay, the point is he has never set the record straight, so to speak, on his sexual orientation/preference. There no reliable photographs of him with any significant other, man or woman. Hell, he could be asexual for all we know. So until he reveals that aspect of his life to the public, everything at this point is just hearsay, nothing more. Draw your own personal conclusions about Anderson Cooper if you like, but don't think that your suspicions or "gaydar" will pass as reliable information regarding AC's personal life.
The interviewer made the same point about the family and children quote, but "Anderson Cooper...has in the past publicly acknowledged that he is gay." [18] (The Washington Blade link isn't working right now, while they sort out who will own the archive, but it was working when retrieved above.) People really should read more before commenting. TVC 15 ( talk) 02:08, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
Several sources say he's gay. I seriously think he's gay. But so what. Being gay has no relevance to his job as a journalist, unless and until it's reliably shown that it does. Anderson makes a big deal about not letting his personal life intrude into his professional life. — Becksguy ( talk) 08:20, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
Hullaballoo Wolfowitz undid my edit on Cooper's companion Benjamin Maisani on the basis that Maisani is non-notable. Google search of "Benjamin Maisani" (in quote marks) returns 'About 17,700 results', proving that Maisani is notable. There is no doubt that Maisani is Cooper's boyfriend, the NY Post snippet I quoted us just one source. Why is Wikipedia denying the obvious? Newtaste ( talk) 14:06, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Guys, come on. This debate has been raging on for, like, over half a decade. He's never married, and has been seen with two men over the past seven years. He flew to China with his current one, Ben, last year. In a debate about gay marriage, he even said, "we pay taxes, too," (which was revised in a CNN transcript as "you pay taxes, too," probably to keep ambiguity prevalent). Not to sound offensive, but this would be like us not acknowledging the fact that he is Caucasian because he never said so publicly. He's also been This is nothing to make a big deal out of, but why shouldn't we list this article in its subject's proper category? He doesn't make his sexual orientation explicit because he doesn't like to talk about his personal life, and coming out just isn't that big of a thing anymore. Off the site, it's consensus, too. CPGACoast ( talk) 22:49, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
"info box" has line "official site" styled as a link. that link sends one to http://www.cnn.com/CNN/anchors_reporters/cooper.anderson.html"
that is not an "official" website; it is merely a bio page on the website of his current employer.
description should be changed (to reflect reality) to read "cooper's biography on cnn.com." because i am not a registered editor and the article is protected(*), i obviously cannot make the adjustment myself. i trust a registered editor will drift along, see this comment, concur and make the change.
(*) which raises the questions: how long has it been padlocked? how many different times? is it vandalized heavily and immediately each time it's unlocked or are some wikipedians being overly proctective? perhaps some regular watcher of the article can answer (i don't have capacity right now to ferret out the answers). -- 71.183.238.134 ( talk) 21:47, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
This was just related on AC360, and appears to be notable enough to report. I just wanted to note that I added it in case there's a dispute. I welcome a discussion of whether it's notable; it fits well with the discussion of his family and childhood and was related by Cooper himself. Wellspring ( talk) 02:47, 26 June 2009 (UTC)