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Is Rosicrucianism really a 'new religious' movement? AMORC began in the United States in 1915, but its charter(s)/ideas came from much older groups in Europe. Also, the AMORC specifically distances itself from religion. I am just wondering how this article ended up in this category? Obviously every group can't self-define, but I think it is a stretch to put AMORC here when it follows traditions at least 400 years old. Also the group doesn't seem seem to me to have anything religious in nature about it?? Interested in thoughts of others. 64.186.246.122 00:03, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
William Cooper was murdered 10/01. Prior to his murder, Bill Cooper read directly from a Rosicrusian Book that was available when the owner had died. The book gave a detailed account of how this secret society was able to infiltrate and submit maps and plans for a New World Order. Following is a brief summary of what Bill Cooper read and the corruption this Illumanati secret society put into motion:
North American Union, NAU first proposed in 1916 not fully executed, but soon could be. Likely, the EU was proposed same date, although haven't done the research. NAU has to be completed for the capstone reflected on American currency to be set. Presently, the "all seeing eye" is above the partially completed pyramid. When the US dollar collapses, the fix will be aligning Canada, America & Mexico plus convert to the Amero. NAU, AMERO is the Major Capstone Event for satanic NWO proponents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.230.98.57 ( talk) 07:37, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Rosicrucian Park in San Jose is in itself a tourist attraction and curio. I think it justifies a page all its own, especially since there is no mention of it on this page. So I created the page called The Rosicrucian Park because the page Rosicrucian Park simply directs back to the AMORC page. Hopefully, someone can straighten this out and we can eventually drop the "The" in "The Rosicrucian Park," and "Rosicrucian Park" can be granted the page I made. But it is my sincere belief that Rosicrucian Park in itself deserves its own page. The Egyptian Museum received its own page. Newager 06:28, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Before he was murdered in October of 2001, William Cooper read directly from a Rosicrucian Book. The books owner had died and it provided an opportunity to read the entire account of infiltrating American government and submitting the maps & plan for a New World Order.
Following is a summary of what this secret society put into motion.
North American Union, NAU first proposed in 1916 not fully executed, but soon could be. Likely, the EU was proposed same date, although I haven't done the research. NAU has to be completed for the capstone reflected on American currency to be set. Presently, the "all seeing eye" is above the partially completed pyramid. When the US dollar collapses, the fix will be aligning Canada, America & Mexico plus convert to the Amero. NAU, AMERO is the major capstone event for satanic NWO proponents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.230.98.57 ( talk) 07:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
FYI: A major update to this article is scheduled for January 2004. The Positio Fraternitatis Rosae Crucis will be summarized, presenting the main goals and ideas of the Rosicrucian Order, AMORC, regarding the current world situation. Some info may be written regarding the Radio Station, the Rosicrucian Park, the 2004 Peace Conference, and more. Also a more complete History section will be written, and information will be added for the Rose Croix University. Some other sections may be rewritten too. So come back if you are interested Optim 13:34, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)
..largely needed..(from Germany)
Comment added by reader: What sort of answer do you need from Germany?
I realize 'secret' is the common translation of this word, but I think the meaning as in AAORRAC is really intended more as 'hidden' or 'esoteric.' Secret in modern parlance really has a different connotation. Should this be addressed somehow in the translation of AAORRAC? 64.186.246.122 23:47, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I am afraid that the major update may be postponed for February. Now I wrote some exclusive information on the Radio Station. As far as I know, this information is not published on the Web. I will summarise the Positio manifesto in the future; Now I just added the Rosicrucian Utopia info. More information on Rosicrucian Park, the Order's history, the Rosicrucian University and the Rose+Croix journal will be added some time. I need suggestions on whether Julie Scott (S.R.C.) should be merged with AMORC. I have requested peer review. Especially I need your opinion on the NPOVness of the article. And also, whether it is easy-to-understand. Thank you, Peace Profound .'. Optim 07:36, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC) .'.
Place your comments here, use * and headers if you like:
It's a fair beginning for an article, but there is definitely some work needed. Based on the call for editing for NPOV, I will guess that you are personally involved with the group. This is something that comes across in the writing style - somewhat. I would suggest that you look to combine sections together, giving the article less of a bulleted, "brochure-ish" feel, which may be of use to a potential adherent (particularly the "Teachings" section, which could be lost completely), and instead construct paragraphs with some "weight" to the more casual reader, who is interested in the facts without needing to know the more involved details; my guess would be that many of these single-sentence paragraphs could be dropped without changing the fundamental meaning of the article for the latter type of reader. The Critiques section could stand to quote from sources outside of AMORC - as is, it is really only serving the purpose of being a " straw man". There are a few places where word choice is questionable; for example, reference to the World Peace Conference as an "important conference" with no further description smacks of a touch of salesmanship. An alternative way to phrase it may be that the Conference will feature this important person delivering an address on peace in Ireland, or some such. In other words, show, rather than tell. By all means, though, stick with it. - Scooter 04:34, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)
To me, the article looks more like a web portal site for the AMORC organization than an encyclopedic entry. That's not so much a problem of size, but mostly a problem of coherence and redundancy. For example, in the article it is stated at least three times which publications AMORC publishes, which of these are public and which are members-online. One sentence about the AMORC publications should be enough, something like: AMORC publishes a number of magazines and newsletters: the public Rosicrucian Digest [see here], the members-only Secret Bavarian Rosicrucian [see there] and the highest levels top secret A.A.O.O. brevis, called O.O.A.A. breve for the French lodges. -- till we *) 01:20, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
How is it 14 years later and this article still reads like an advertisement for AMORC? It looks like every single source is associated with AMORC themselves. Is it just that no one cares enough and I'm the first person to visit in years? I agree with whoever below suggested just deleting the article entirely.
73.8.253.158 (
talk) 01:10, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
I just love that old AMORC ad: "There are some things that cannot be generally told - things you ought to know". If they can't be generally told, how come they think I can be trusted with them???!!!
I can not believe it! I was working on an essay and somebody has totally replaced this article with another one. Very sad to see, how people can abuse Wikipedia. Thanks to this guy who has done all this! You have done a great job for the Confraternity. Maybe more people want to join them now. The light of enlightenment really shines upon you "Confraternity-brethren"! Gosh, I can only shake my head.
Alright, I have reverted the whole page to an earlier version.
To the writer:
You have completely failed to address the most important criticism from both Scooter and till we *), namely, that this entire article is basically an apologetic for AMORC and in no way reflective of the Wikipedia NPOV policy. I'm strongly inclined to delete the whole thing. It really is that bad.
till we *) was right, this article was a blaspheme upon Wikipedia. Hopefully I've done it some good. While I know almost nothing about the AMORC, I was able to condense the article drastically and remove small insignificant pieces of information regarding every specific publication they produce with no other information than the fact that it was produced. Also, I took out the obscene bolding. There are some areas where I am not inclined (I've already spent an hour fixing this one crap article) to research at the moment, specifically Criticism which in the form I found it was literally TAKEN FROM THEIR WEBPAGE! So, if anyone knows more about them than I, please look over the article and make sure I didn't take out anything important and if I did please replace it with MORE INFORMATION! Finally, I took out the largest block of web links I have ever seen on a page. Most of the deletions occured because they were multiples of the same website or because they were individual Rosicruician members. If there was an important website I took down, please replace it but don't go overboard. There are already too many for such a small group.
Thanks
--
TheGrza 05:56, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)
The Positio Fraternitatis Rosae Crucus
The Positio Fraternitatis Rosae Crucis is a document revealed at an AMORC meeting in August, 2001. It describes what is wrong with the present world situation and the Rosicrucian Utopia: <--- (What does this sentence mean? does it describe what is wrong with the Rosicrucian Utopia, or does it describe the Rosicrucian Utopia?) (What is this following list? Things that are wrong witht the world or elements of the rosicrucian Utopia or some other entirely different thing?)
( Pedant 18:38, 2004 Dec 18 (UTC))
I tried to explain why "manifesto" has signifiance in the Rosicrucian tradition, and gave background info on the concept of Utopia. Hopefully this should clear things up a bit for the random reader. I left the specific points untouched. Not sure the entire list is necessary, especially since a link to the source is given? 64.186.246.122 23:41, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
The background
the image vs. the article
The action
Thank you, -- GalaazV 19:32, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Is it appropiate to refer to conspiracy theories without providing evidence or bibliography in a Wikipedia article, as it is done in this article referring to possible links to financial arrangements related to the Order of the Solar Temple and implication in activities such as Operation Gladio? I don't think so for an encyclopaedia that wants to be a credible resource for students. -- Jdemarcos 10:22, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I haven't been able to find ANY remotely credible evidence for this theory AT ALL--even in the refered articles. In my opinion this paragraph should be either supported or removed. Rosicrucianinitiate 21:23, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
The title says it all. KSM-2501ZX, IP address:= 200.155.188.3 ( talk) 16:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
This is not a serious work. The part about the history of AMORC is totally science-fiction. They may claim what they want, the order goes back only to 1915. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.67.85.181 ( talk) 22:19, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Can we find a being who is enlightened enough to render this article grammatical? It is so fractured it's impossible to make sense of it even syntactically, much less philosophically. rowley ( talk) 20:17, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
This is from the opening section:
As the phrases "Rose-Croix" and "Rosicrucian" are in the public domain, there are a number of organizations that describe themselves as such. According to AMORC members and related publications, these organizations may or may not be related to a real Rosicrucian Order and most of them are not. AMORC claims to be the only organization keeping the teachings of their ancient Rose-Croix Order unaltered and the primordial tradition intact.
Highlight mine. This is such an inflammatory claim in the world of rosicrucian orders, going back to the legal battles between R. Swinburne Clymer (founder of The Fraternitas Rosæ Crucis) and H. Spencer Lewis (founder of AMORC). Both groups lay claim to being the only unaltered tradition. And I'm sure there are others, too.
I guess what I'm saying is that this statement is really not appropriate for inclusion in the wiki article. It's more akin to fraternal propaganda and advertising. Ztheday ( talk) 17:31, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
The constant reference to "conspiracy theorists" takes away from the neutral pov of this article. Also questionable is the following sentence:
"Other Rosicrucian organizations, such as FUDOFSI and Fraternitas Rosæ Crucis have criticized AMORC's authenticity with the benefit of bolstering their own claims of authenticity."
There is no reference to commentary that this was done only for selfish benefit on the parts of FUDOFSI and Fraternitas Rosæ Crucis. Even so, I don't believe that this commentary would have a place within this section due to its already biased nature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.207.235.17 ( talk) 19:17, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Did not take long, did it (55 minutes), to remove link and mention of The Rosicrucian Forum ?! a private publication for members of AMORC, the Rosicrucian Order.
"
I think that I have touched upon this subject heretofore, but will say again that we agree with the view of Mr. Hitler, for instance, in Germany, who is expressing only the view-point that the ancient Greeks had and which all students of present-day social problems agree upon and which scientists have indorsed; namely, that there is too little restriction being placed upon who should marry and who should propagate the future generations of mankind. In other words, I believe that the doctrine of eugenics should be made universal and enforced if possible and that in addition to the securing of a legal license for marriage in order that there may be no violation of legal laws in connection with marriage, there should be no violation of natural laws either.
" -- H. Spencer Lewis, Imperator, April, 1935, Vol. V. No. 5.
--
user:nt351 —Preceding
undated comment added 23:21, 9 January 2010 (UTC).
No surprise there, that you "did not look at the publication". As you very well know The Rosicrucian Forum was AMORC's magazine, you also know that AMORC is making The Rosicrucian Forum available for download in large .pdf files. The text is more than reliable, I scanned it and pictures myself of original issues of The Rosicrucian Forum. (Just as every other text to which I made links -- others also made links to text I scanned and posted -- is my handy work, produced it myself.) -- user:nt351 —Preceding undated comment added 01:53, 12 January 2010 (UTC).
Then what are you doing here sticking your nose into subject of which you know nothing ? -- user:nt351 —Preceding undated comment added 02:45, 16 January 2010 (UTC).
I imagine that this name, which appears (thus) today in the Criticism Section, is a typo for Raymond Bernard; however I did a search on that name and there are Wikipedia articles on the following persons:
I think it is obvious there should be a link here if it can be determined that the Rosicrucian reference is to one of these (more probably the latter, but despite all the esotericism and the long list of writings, the article on Siegmeister does not mention Rosicrucianism anywhere); and of course also a mention of, and link to, Rosicrucianism in the article on Siegmeister if that same condition is met. Iph ( talk) 10:01, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
I've removed the entire section because it did not have any citations whatsoever. Please feel free to return any criticism that can be cited, but it is prefered that it be inline with text about what is being criticized. Separate criticism sections are discouraged, as they tend to become magnets for the sort of uncited material that I removed. Yworo ( talk) 20:13, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
I added Sirhan Sirhan, based on the FBI report of Robert Kennedy's assassination.
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/Sections/NEWS/PDFs/Kennedy%20Robert%20assassination.pdf
Page 14 notes a search of Sirhan's car wherein a membership card was recovered, noting his membership in this organisation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.238.247.39 ( talk) 15:01, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
The organization relentlessly advertised in a number of magazines in the U.S. during the 1950s and 1960s... -- AnonMoos ( talk) 15:19, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
-- Not just the US! ExpatSalopian ( talk) 02:16, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Many of the problems with this article which go back to at least 2004, have either gone unaddressed or have resurfaced, in that this article is written from the point of view of a member of the organisation, and takes the internal mythology and history of the organisation as fact, the sourcing of the citations of these facts being from internal documented and publications by the organisation itself. While this is valid in writing about how the organisation sees and promotes itself, in order to be NPOV the article's tone should be more from the outside looking in.-- KTo288 ( talk) 10:05, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
It's funny how a few of us have pointed this out but no one cares enough to actually change it. Myself included.
73.8.253.158 (
talk) 01:14, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ancient Mystical Order Rosae Crucis/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Needs reference citations. John Carter ( talk) 01:46, 5 December 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 01:46, 5 December 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 07:42, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
This article is an insult to the population of wikipedia. H. Spencer Lewis was a "secret partner" to big business? The citation for this is Lewis's own book so pardon me if I don't find it very convincing. This is a man who held a public demonstration of turning zinc into gold. Right. Honestly it sounds like an interesting organization, but the tone is quite literally that of propaganda. 73.8.253.158 ( talk) 01:19, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
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Is Rosicrucianism really a 'new religious' movement? AMORC began in the United States in 1915, but its charter(s)/ideas came from much older groups in Europe. Also, the AMORC specifically distances itself from religion. I am just wondering how this article ended up in this category? Obviously every group can't self-define, but I think it is a stretch to put AMORC here when it follows traditions at least 400 years old. Also the group doesn't seem seem to me to have anything religious in nature about it?? Interested in thoughts of others. 64.186.246.122 00:03, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
William Cooper was murdered 10/01. Prior to his murder, Bill Cooper read directly from a Rosicrusian Book that was available when the owner had died. The book gave a detailed account of how this secret society was able to infiltrate and submit maps and plans for a New World Order. Following is a brief summary of what Bill Cooper read and the corruption this Illumanati secret society put into motion:
North American Union, NAU first proposed in 1916 not fully executed, but soon could be. Likely, the EU was proposed same date, although haven't done the research. NAU has to be completed for the capstone reflected on American currency to be set. Presently, the "all seeing eye" is above the partially completed pyramid. When the US dollar collapses, the fix will be aligning Canada, America & Mexico plus convert to the Amero. NAU, AMERO is the Major Capstone Event for satanic NWO proponents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.230.98.57 ( talk) 07:37, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Rosicrucian Park in San Jose is in itself a tourist attraction and curio. I think it justifies a page all its own, especially since there is no mention of it on this page. So I created the page called The Rosicrucian Park because the page Rosicrucian Park simply directs back to the AMORC page. Hopefully, someone can straighten this out and we can eventually drop the "The" in "The Rosicrucian Park," and "Rosicrucian Park" can be granted the page I made. But it is my sincere belief that Rosicrucian Park in itself deserves its own page. The Egyptian Museum received its own page. Newager 06:28, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Before he was murdered in October of 2001, William Cooper read directly from a Rosicrucian Book. The books owner had died and it provided an opportunity to read the entire account of infiltrating American government and submitting the maps & plan for a New World Order.
Following is a summary of what this secret society put into motion.
North American Union, NAU first proposed in 1916 not fully executed, but soon could be. Likely, the EU was proposed same date, although I haven't done the research. NAU has to be completed for the capstone reflected on American currency to be set. Presently, the "all seeing eye" is above the partially completed pyramid. When the US dollar collapses, the fix will be aligning Canada, America & Mexico plus convert to the Amero. NAU, AMERO is the major capstone event for satanic NWO proponents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.230.98.57 ( talk) 07:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
FYI: A major update to this article is scheduled for January 2004. The Positio Fraternitatis Rosae Crucis will be summarized, presenting the main goals and ideas of the Rosicrucian Order, AMORC, regarding the current world situation. Some info may be written regarding the Radio Station, the Rosicrucian Park, the 2004 Peace Conference, and more. Also a more complete History section will be written, and information will be added for the Rose Croix University. Some other sections may be rewritten too. So come back if you are interested Optim 13:34, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)
..largely needed..(from Germany)
Comment added by reader: What sort of answer do you need from Germany?
I realize 'secret' is the common translation of this word, but I think the meaning as in AAORRAC is really intended more as 'hidden' or 'esoteric.' Secret in modern parlance really has a different connotation. Should this be addressed somehow in the translation of AAORRAC? 64.186.246.122 23:47, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I am afraid that the major update may be postponed for February. Now I wrote some exclusive information on the Radio Station. As far as I know, this information is not published on the Web. I will summarise the Positio manifesto in the future; Now I just added the Rosicrucian Utopia info. More information on Rosicrucian Park, the Order's history, the Rosicrucian University and the Rose+Croix journal will be added some time. I need suggestions on whether Julie Scott (S.R.C.) should be merged with AMORC. I have requested peer review. Especially I need your opinion on the NPOVness of the article. And also, whether it is easy-to-understand. Thank you, Peace Profound .'. Optim 07:36, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC) .'.
Place your comments here, use * and headers if you like:
It's a fair beginning for an article, but there is definitely some work needed. Based on the call for editing for NPOV, I will guess that you are personally involved with the group. This is something that comes across in the writing style - somewhat. I would suggest that you look to combine sections together, giving the article less of a bulleted, "brochure-ish" feel, which may be of use to a potential adherent (particularly the "Teachings" section, which could be lost completely), and instead construct paragraphs with some "weight" to the more casual reader, who is interested in the facts without needing to know the more involved details; my guess would be that many of these single-sentence paragraphs could be dropped without changing the fundamental meaning of the article for the latter type of reader. The Critiques section could stand to quote from sources outside of AMORC - as is, it is really only serving the purpose of being a " straw man". There are a few places where word choice is questionable; for example, reference to the World Peace Conference as an "important conference" with no further description smacks of a touch of salesmanship. An alternative way to phrase it may be that the Conference will feature this important person delivering an address on peace in Ireland, or some such. In other words, show, rather than tell. By all means, though, stick with it. - Scooter 04:34, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)
To me, the article looks more like a web portal site for the AMORC organization than an encyclopedic entry. That's not so much a problem of size, but mostly a problem of coherence and redundancy. For example, in the article it is stated at least three times which publications AMORC publishes, which of these are public and which are members-online. One sentence about the AMORC publications should be enough, something like: AMORC publishes a number of magazines and newsletters: the public Rosicrucian Digest [see here], the members-only Secret Bavarian Rosicrucian [see there] and the highest levels top secret A.A.O.O. brevis, called O.O.A.A. breve for the French lodges. -- till we *) 01:20, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)
How is it 14 years later and this article still reads like an advertisement for AMORC? It looks like every single source is associated with AMORC themselves. Is it just that no one cares enough and I'm the first person to visit in years? I agree with whoever below suggested just deleting the article entirely.
73.8.253.158 (
talk) 01:10, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
I just love that old AMORC ad: "There are some things that cannot be generally told - things you ought to know". If they can't be generally told, how come they think I can be trusted with them???!!!
I can not believe it! I was working on an essay and somebody has totally replaced this article with another one. Very sad to see, how people can abuse Wikipedia. Thanks to this guy who has done all this! You have done a great job for the Confraternity. Maybe more people want to join them now. The light of enlightenment really shines upon you "Confraternity-brethren"! Gosh, I can only shake my head.
Alright, I have reverted the whole page to an earlier version.
To the writer:
You have completely failed to address the most important criticism from both Scooter and till we *), namely, that this entire article is basically an apologetic for AMORC and in no way reflective of the Wikipedia NPOV policy. I'm strongly inclined to delete the whole thing. It really is that bad.
till we *) was right, this article was a blaspheme upon Wikipedia. Hopefully I've done it some good. While I know almost nothing about the AMORC, I was able to condense the article drastically and remove small insignificant pieces of information regarding every specific publication they produce with no other information than the fact that it was produced. Also, I took out the obscene bolding. There are some areas where I am not inclined (I've already spent an hour fixing this one crap article) to research at the moment, specifically Criticism which in the form I found it was literally TAKEN FROM THEIR WEBPAGE! So, if anyone knows more about them than I, please look over the article and make sure I didn't take out anything important and if I did please replace it with MORE INFORMATION! Finally, I took out the largest block of web links I have ever seen on a page. Most of the deletions occured because they were multiples of the same website or because they were individual Rosicruician members. If there was an important website I took down, please replace it but don't go overboard. There are already too many for such a small group.
Thanks
--
TheGrza 05:56, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)
The Positio Fraternitatis Rosae Crucus
The Positio Fraternitatis Rosae Crucis is a document revealed at an AMORC meeting in August, 2001. It describes what is wrong with the present world situation and the Rosicrucian Utopia: <--- (What does this sentence mean? does it describe what is wrong with the Rosicrucian Utopia, or does it describe the Rosicrucian Utopia?) (What is this following list? Things that are wrong witht the world or elements of the rosicrucian Utopia or some other entirely different thing?)
( Pedant 18:38, 2004 Dec 18 (UTC))
I tried to explain why "manifesto" has signifiance in the Rosicrucian tradition, and gave background info on the concept of Utopia. Hopefully this should clear things up a bit for the random reader. I left the specific points untouched. Not sure the entire list is necessary, especially since a link to the source is given? 64.186.246.122 23:41, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
The background
the image vs. the article
The action
Thank you, -- GalaazV 19:32, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Is it appropiate to refer to conspiracy theories without providing evidence or bibliography in a Wikipedia article, as it is done in this article referring to possible links to financial arrangements related to the Order of the Solar Temple and implication in activities such as Operation Gladio? I don't think so for an encyclopaedia that wants to be a credible resource for students. -- Jdemarcos 10:22, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I haven't been able to find ANY remotely credible evidence for this theory AT ALL--even in the refered articles. In my opinion this paragraph should be either supported or removed. Rosicrucianinitiate 21:23, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
The title says it all. KSM-2501ZX, IP address:= 200.155.188.3 ( talk) 16:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
This is not a serious work. The part about the history of AMORC is totally science-fiction. They may claim what they want, the order goes back only to 1915. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.67.85.181 ( talk) 22:19, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Can we find a being who is enlightened enough to render this article grammatical? It is so fractured it's impossible to make sense of it even syntactically, much less philosophically. rowley ( talk) 20:17, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
This is from the opening section:
As the phrases "Rose-Croix" and "Rosicrucian" are in the public domain, there are a number of organizations that describe themselves as such. According to AMORC members and related publications, these organizations may or may not be related to a real Rosicrucian Order and most of them are not. AMORC claims to be the only organization keeping the teachings of their ancient Rose-Croix Order unaltered and the primordial tradition intact.
Highlight mine. This is such an inflammatory claim in the world of rosicrucian orders, going back to the legal battles between R. Swinburne Clymer (founder of The Fraternitas Rosæ Crucis) and H. Spencer Lewis (founder of AMORC). Both groups lay claim to being the only unaltered tradition. And I'm sure there are others, too.
I guess what I'm saying is that this statement is really not appropriate for inclusion in the wiki article. It's more akin to fraternal propaganda and advertising. Ztheday ( talk) 17:31, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
The constant reference to "conspiracy theorists" takes away from the neutral pov of this article. Also questionable is the following sentence:
"Other Rosicrucian organizations, such as FUDOFSI and Fraternitas Rosæ Crucis have criticized AMORC's authenticity with the benefit of bolstering their own claims of authenticity."
There is no reference to commentary that this was done only for selfish benefit on the parts of FUDOFSI and Fraternitas Rosæ Crucis. Even so, I don't believe that this commentary would have a place within this section due to its already biased nature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.207.235.17 ( talk) 19:17, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Did not take long, did it (55 minutes), to remove link and mention of The Rosicrucian Forum ?! a private publication for members of AMORC, the Rosicrucian Order.
"
I think that I have touched upon this subject heretofore, but will say again that we agree with the view of Mr. Hitler, for instance, in Germany, who is expressing only the view-point that the ancient Greeks had and which all students of present-day social problems agree upon and which scientists have indorsed; namely, that there is too little restriction being placed upon who should marry and who should propagate the future generations of mankind. In other words, I believe that the doctrine of eugenics should be made universal and enforced if possible and that in addition to the securing of a legal license for marriage in order that there may be no violation of legal laws in connection with marriage, there should be no violation of natural laws either.
" -- H. Spencer Lewis, Imperator, April, 1935, Vol. V. No. 5.
--
user:nt351 —Preceding
undated comment added 23:21, 9 January 2010 (UTC).
No surprise there, that you "did not look at the publication". As you very well know The Rosicrucian Forum was AMORC's magazine, you also know that AMORC is making The Rosicrucian Forum available for download in large .pdf files. The text is more than reliable, I scanned it and pictures myself of original issues of The Rosicrucian Forum. (Just as every other text to which I made links -- others also made links to text I scanned and posted -- is my handy work, produced it myself.) -- user:nt351 —Preceding undated comment added 01:53, 12 January 2010 (UTC).
Then what are you doing here sticking your nose into subject of which you know nothing ? -- user:nt351 —Preceding undated comment added 02:45, 16 January 2010 (UTC).
I imagine that this name, which appears (thus) today in the Criticism Section, is a typo for Raymond Bernard; however I did a search on that name and there are Wikipedia articles on the following persons:
I think it is obvious there should be a link here if it can be determined that the Rosicrucian reference is to one of these (more probably the latter, but despite all the esotericism and the long list of writings, the article on Siegmeister does not mention Rosicrucianism anywhere); and of course also a mention of, and link to, Rosicrucianism in the article on Siegmeister if that same condition is met. Iph ( talk) 10:01, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
I've removed the entire section because it did not have any citations whatsoever. Please feel free to return any criticism that can be cited, but it is prefered that it be inline with text about what is being criticized. Separate criticism sections are discouraged, as they tend to become magnets for the sort of uncited material that I removed. Yworo ( talk) 20:13, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
I added Sirhan Sirhan, based on the FBI report of Robert Kennedy's assassination.
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/Sections/NEWS/PDFs/Kennedy%20Robert%20assassination.pdf
Page 14 notes a search of Sirhan's car wherein a membership card was recovered, noting his membership in this organisation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.238.247.39 ( talk) 15:01, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
The organization relentlessly advertised in a number of magazines in the U.S. during the 1950s and 1960s... -- AnonMoos ( talk) 15:19, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
-- Not just the US! ExpatSalopian ( talk) 02:16, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Many of the problems with this article which go back to at least 2004, have either gone unaddressed or have resurfaced, in that this article is written from the point of view of a member of the organisation, and takes the internal mythology and history of the organisation as fact, the sourcing of the citations of these facts being from internal documented and publications by the organisation itself. While this is valid in writing about how the organisation sees and promotes itself, in order to be NPOV the article's tone should be more from the outside looking in.-- KTo288 ( talk) 10:05, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
It's funny how a few of us have pointed this out but no one cares enough to actually change it. Myself included.
73.8.253.158 (
talk) 01:14, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ancient Mystical Order Rosae Crucis/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Needs reference citations. John Carter ( talk) 01:46, 5 December 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 01:46, 5 December 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 07:42, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
This article is an insult to the population of wikipedia. H. Spencer Lewis was a "secret partner" to big business? The citation for this is Lewis's own book so pardon me if I don't find it very convincing. This is a man who held a public demonstration of turning zinc into gold. Right. Honestly it sounds like an interesting organization, but the tone is quite literally that of propaganda. 73.8.253.158 ( talk) 01:19, 19 April 2018 (UTC)