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![]() | This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
The page should be edited, along with most pages involved with the hellenistic period. The use of linothorax is a popular memetic mutation not based in archeology/history. Linen corslets are mentioned occasionally in period literature, however this was of twined or quilted construction which was the norm for all soft armor across the planet. Glued linen is completely unsupported and driven entirely by art students from Wisconsin-Green Bay that lacked any supporting textual, archeological, or aristic evidence. Not only does it quite literally delaminate in climates like Greece itself, there simply is no basis for its existence beyond hypotheticals by students which is wholly unrelated to historical study. The "Tube and Yoke" design found in artwork depicting stiff armor is probably comprised of spolas, ie leather/rawhide protection. Really there should be a purge of the linothorax "reconstruction" in general from the wikia, as it spreads misinformation of period warfare.
~W
As i have appointed in the image "Macedonian Battle Formation" there is a problem because the hypaspists are called "heavy cavalry" when they was infantry.
-Fco
"but this would contradict statues and reports contemporary to phalangist troops that showed these soldiers wearing large and heavy shields over one arm; regardless"
The phalangites did not "hold onto" their shields directly in their left hard - the small heavy shield the phalangites used were strapped onto their left arm, leaving both their left and right hands free to wield the heavy sarissa pike. Intranetusa ( talk) 02:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
"It seems to appear that Alexander would organize his left flank into a thin line to make it appear weak, while a massive phalanx would be on the right." There is no evidence of Alexander varying the depth of his phalanx. Was is true is that his left was often the point of the hardest fighting--as in Issus, where the Persians focused the brunt of their cavalry assault.
"It is the belief of some that these pikes were so large and heavy ..." Weight had nothing to do with it. Length did.
"... that they had to be wielded with two hands in battle." It's not the "belief of some"; it is physically impossible to use a sarissa effectively with one hand.
"The phalangite training was sufficient to permit proper use of the shield and sarissa." Actually, it was the shield's sling, suspended around the wielder's neck and shoulder that kept the shield in place. Connolly also asserts that there was a forearm sleeve that helped keep it from moving and gave the phalangite better control--and a hand-grip that could be used when the spear was not in hand.
"The typical Macedonian phalanx was divided into groups of 800 phalangites, ..." According to whom? Very little is known about Phillip's phalanx, and even less about its sub-divisions.
"Before a battle the sarissa were carried in two pieces and then slid together when they were being used." Spoken as a fact... there is no evidence in the extant record of this happening.
I deleted the "short" from "short sword", as it was unecessary. The xiphos, machaira and falcata that would have been used by a phalangite are hardly smaller than the average swords of their contemporaries, and only mere inches shorter (if that) than the gladius they would be conquered by.
"So long as everyone was using the same tactics these weaknesses were not immediately apparent, but with the advent of the Roman legion they proved fatal in every major engagement, the most famous being the Battle of Pydna, as the Romans were able to advance through gaps in the line and easily defeat the Phalangites once in close." Deleted due to innaccuracy and lack of relevance.
1) Pyrrhus defeated the Romans twice. 2) The armies fielded by Flamininus and Paulus at Cynoscephalae and Pydna were largely non-Roman. The armies Pyrrhus defeated were actually much moreso, with fewer non-Roman troops. 3) Pydna was decided partially by the rough terrain Perseus' phalanx marched into, but the extant record (largely Plutarch and Livy) makes it clear that the deciding factor was the departure of the cavalry on the flanks. By the time the gaps were forming, Paulus' cavalry and elephants were already destroying the phalanx's flank.
Phoebus Americanos ( talk) 15:19, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
So I moved this article to Army of ancient Macedon yesterday....but should the "a" be capitalized? (I.e. move the page to Army of Ancient Macedon or Army of Ancient Macedonia?) Thanks in advance. the_ed 17 14:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
This artical refers to Macedonia as a state or province of Greece. It is well documented that Macedonia was it's own sovereign nation with it's own language that is spoken today. I find this reference not only infactual, but also insulting. Please make the required changes so reflect the facts as it should be. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
99.247.42.187 (
talk)
08:51, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
There appear to be a lot of personal pronouns (we, I, etc.) in the article. Per Wikipedia:Pronoun#Tone we should not use first person narrative. I'm going to work on it a bit, but I'd appreciate if anyone else that notices it helps. C6541 ( T↔ C) 18:17, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was move to Ancient Macedonian army. There's a rough consensus that the suggested title requires this further disambiguation but that the current title isn't preferable. Cúchullain t/ c 16:21, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Army of Macedon → Macedonian army – As pointed out above, the country article has been moved from Macedon to Macedonia (ancient kingdom), and Macedonian army already redirects here. The army of Philip II, Alexander and their successors is and most probably will remain a far more popular subject that the military of the Republic of Macedonia, a fact confirmed by a GBook search. Constantine ✍ 19:27, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
The new heading image is so very dull!
Other possibilities:
Urselius ( talk) 20:52, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
I'm just letting others known that I am massively expanding this article with materials taken from Macedonia (ancient kingdom). Per Wikipedia:Article size and Wikipedia:Summary style, I am trimming details from the main article and shifting it here, treating this article as a sibling or sub-article of the main one. I have cited three sources thus far: Sekunda (2010), Hammond and Walbank (2001), and Errington (1990), adding full reference info for them in the sources section. I have also removed a lot of non-sourced material in this article, since we shouldn't have a bunch of paragraphs without even a single citation. Thankfully the vast majority of statements I removed were simply replaced with similar statements that are actually sourced (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources for more information about how to properly cite sources). Raise any objections if you have them, but the material I have added is well-referenced and uses academic sources. Pericles of Athens Talk 06:56, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
Just found out that there were fragments of three shields found at Bonce, but all were incomplete. At least one will be reconstructed as far as is possible, none of the fragments looks like the photo. Urselius ( talk) 16:10, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
On a different subject, I now have a copy of Markle (1982) Macedonian Arms and Tactics under Alexander the Great. I should be able to beef up citations, and perhaps text, on arms and armour, and especially tactics. Urselius ( talk) 09:01, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
There have been a number of anonymous edits inserting "Greek" ethnicity into prominent places in the lead. This is pointless nationalistic tub-thumping. The historical importance of the Macedonians is that they created the Hellenistic world and spread Greek civilisation widely. This is not the importance of the Macedonian army, its importance is military and political. An exact parallel is the Roman army, because it allowed the spread of the Italic languages (Romance) and Roman civilisation, but no one is insisting on inserting "the Italic Roman state" into the articles on the Roman army. In short, the article makes it plain that the Macedonians were a semi-barbarous people on the outskirts of Greek civilisation. Anyone so interested can find out on Wikipedia that the Macedonians spoke a rustic Northern Greek dialect, which was looked down upon by metropolitan Greeks from the city-states. The Greeks themselves were not entirely sure of the Greekness of the Macedonians. The Macedonians were not automatically accredited as members of pan-Hellenic associations. For example Philip II sponsored contestants at the Olympic Games, not as a Macedonian, but because of his claimed descent from the royal line of Argos; he was, as a result, a "real Greek" by descent. Urselius ( talk) 08:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 03:52, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
I don't think there's much in the Macedonian phalanx article that isn't covered here in Ancient Macedonian army. Unbh ( talk) 05:54, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
I think it's pretty clear that it shouldn't be hoplon, but I don't think there's a good case for using argive shield over aspis .The term used in most sources is aspis, even if that can also encompass other things. WP:OTHER not withstanding, the aspis page doesn't even call it the argive shield at any point, and does solely talk about the hoplite shield. Unbh ( talk) 08:31, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
The page should be edited, along with most pages involved with the hellenistic period. The use of linothorax is a popular memetic mutation not based in archeology/history. Linen corslets are mentioned occasionally in period literature, however this was of twined or quilted construction which was the norm for all soft armor across the planet. Glued linen is completely unsupported and driven entirely by art students from Wisconsin-Green Bay that lacked any supporting textual, archeological, or aristic evidence. Not only does it quite literally delaminate in climates like Greece itself, there simply is no basis for its existence beyond hypotheticals by students which is wholly unrelated to historical study. The "Tube and Yoke" design found in artwork depicting stiff armor is probably comprised of spolas, ie leather/rawhide protection. Really there should be a purge of the linothorax "reconstruction" in general from the wikia, as it spreads misinformation of period warfare.
~W
As i have appointed in the image "Macedonian Battle Formation" there is a problem because the hypaspists are called "heavy cavalry" when they was infantry.
-Fco
"but this would contradict statues and reports contemporary to phalangist troops that showed these soldiers wearing large and heavy shields over one arm; regardless"
The phalangites did not "hold onto" their shields directly in their left hard - the small heavy shield the phalangites used were strapped onto their left arm, leaving both their left and right hands free to wield the heavy sarissa pike. Intranetusa ( talk) 02:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
"It seems to appear that Alexander would organize his left flank into a thin line to make it appear weak, while a massive phalanx would be on the right." There is no evidence of Alexander varying the depth of his phalanx. Was is true is that his left was often the point of the hardest fighting--as in Issus, where the Persians focused the brunt of their cavalry assault.
"It is the belief of some that these pikes were so large and heavy ..." Weight had nothing to do with it. Length did.
"... that they had to be wielded with two hands in battle." It's not the "belief of some"; it is physically impossible to use a sarissa effectively with one hand.
"The phalangite training was sufficient to permit proper use of the shield and sarissa." Actually, it was the shield's sling, suspended around the wielder's neck and shoulder that kept the shield in place. Connolly also asserts that there was a forearm sleeve that helped keep it from moving and gave the phalangite better control--and a hand-grip that could be used when the spear was not in hand.
"The typical Macedonian phalanx was divided into groups of 800 phalangites, ..." According to whom? Very little is known about Phillip's phalanx, and even less about its sub-divisions.
"Before a battle the sarissa were carried in two pieces and then slid together when they were being used." Spoken as a fact... there is no evidence in the extant record of this happening.
I deleted the "short" from "short sword", as it was unecessary. The xiphos, machaira and falcata that would have been used by a phalangite are hardly smaller than the average swords of their contemporaries, and only mere inches shorter (if that) than the gladius they would be conquered by.
"So long as everyone was using the same tactics these weaknesses were not immediately apparent, but with the advent of the Roman legion they proved fatal in every major engagement, the most famous being the Battle of Pydna, as the Romans were able to advance through gaps in the line and easily defeat the Phalangites once in close." Deleted due to innaccuracy and lack of relevance.
1) Pyrrhus defeated the Romans twice. 2) The armies fielded by Flamininus and Paulus at Cynoscephalae and Pydna were largely non-Roman. The armies Pyrrhus defeated were actually much moreso, with fewer non-Roman troops. 3) Pydna was decided partially by the rough terrain Perseus' phalanx marched into, but the extant record (largely Plutarch and Livy) makes it clear that the deciding factor was the departure of the cavalry on the flanks. By the time the gaps were forming, Paulus' cavalry and elephants were already destroying the phalanx's flank.
Phoebus Americanos ( talk) 15:19, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
So I moved this article to Army of ancient Macedon yesterday....but should the "a" be capitalized? (I.e. move the page to Army of Ancient Macedon or Army of Ancient Macedonia?) Thanks in advance. the_ed 17 14:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
This artical refers to Macedonia as a state or province of Greece. It is well documented that Macedonia was it's own sovereign nation with it's own language that is spoken today. I find this reference not only infactual, but also insulting. Please make the required changes so reflect the facts as it should be. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
99.247.42.187 (
talk)
08:51, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
There appear to be a lot of personal pronouns (we, I, etc.) in the article. Per Wikipedia:Pronoun#Tone we should not use first person narrative. I'm going to work on it a bit, but I'd appreciate if anyone else that notices it helps. C6541 ( T↔ C) 18:17, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was move to Ancient Macedonian army. There's a rough consensus that the suggested title requires this further disambiguation but that the current title isn't preferable. Cúchullain t/ c 16:21, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Army of Macedon → Macedonian army – As pointed out above, the country article has been moved from Macedon to Macedonia (ancient kingdom), and Macedonian army already redirects here. The army of Philip II, Alexander and their successors is and most probably will remain a far more popular subject that the military of the Republic of Macedonia, a fact confirmed by a GBook search. Constantine ✍ 19:27, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
The new heading image is so very dull!
Other possibilities:
Urselius ( talk) 20:52, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
I'm just letting others known that I am massively expanding this article with materials taken from Macedonia (ancient kingdom). Per Wikipedia:Article size and Wikipedia:Summary style, I am trimming details from the main article and shifting it here, treating this article as a sibling or sub-article of the main one. I have cited three sources thus far: Sekunda (2010), Hammond and Walbank (2001), and Errington (1990), adding full reference info for them in the sources section. I have also removed a lot of non-sourced material in this article, since we shouldn't have a bunch of paragraphs without even a single citation. Thankfully the vast majority of statements I removed were simply replaced with similar statements that are actually sourced (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources for more information about how to properly cite sources). Raise any objections if you have them, but the material I have added is well-referenced and uses academic sources. Pericles of Athens Talk 06:56, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
Just found out that there were fragments of three shields found at Bonce, but all were incomplete. At least one will be reconstructed as far as is possible, none of the fragments looks like the photo. Urselius ( talk) 16:10, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
On a different subject, I now have a copy of Markle (1982) Macedonian Arms and Tactics under Alexander the Great. I should be able to beef up citations, and perhaps text, on arms and armour, and especially tactics. Urselius ( talk) 09:01, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
There have been a number of anonymous edits inserting "Greek" ethnicity into prominent places in the lead. This is pointless nationalistic tub-thumping. The historical importance of the Macedonians is that they created the Hellenistic world and spread Greek civilisation widely. This is not the importance of the Macedonian army, its importance is military and political. An exact parallel is the Roman army, because it allowed the spread of the Italic languages (Romance) and Roman civilisation, but no one is insisting on inserting "the Italic Roman state" into the articles on the Roman army. In short, the article makes it plain that the Macedonians were a semi-barbarous people on the outskirts of Greek civilisation. Anyone so interested can find out on Wikipedia that the Macedonians spoke a rustic Northern Greek dialect, which was looked down upon by metropolitan Greeks from the city-states. The Greeks themselves were not entirely sure of the Greekness of the Macedonians. The Macedonians were not automatically accredited as members of pan-Hellenic associations. For example Philip II sponsored contestants at the Olympic Games, not as a Macedonian, but because of his claimed descent from the royal line of Argos; he was, as a result, a "real Greek" by descent. Urselius ( talk) 08:50, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 03:52, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
I don't think there's much in the Macedonian phalanx article that isn't covered here in Ancient Macedonian army. Unbh ( talk) 05:54, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
I think it's pretty clear that it shouldn't be hoplon, but I don't think there's a good case for using argive shield over aspis .The term used in most sources is aspis, even if that can also encompass other things. WP:OTHER not withstanding, the aspis page doesn't even call it the argive shield at any point, and does solely talk about the hoplite shield. Unbh ( talk) 08:31, 22 April 2022 (UTC)