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Archive 1 |
As noted on the WP:FAC page, this article needed to standardize its capitalization of "Anarchist", "Communist", "Socialist", and "Republican". I attempted to do so using the following criteria:
These conventions seem to be standard. (See: anarchism, communism, socialism...) I may have miscapitalized here and there though — if you find any mistakes, please feel free to fix them. • Benc • 02:18, 28 August 2004 (UTC)
I added the tag "Main Article: Spanish Revolution" under the "1936 Revolution" header. At present, they are indeed the same; but it would be better to have an entire article on the Revolution, and it would keep this article from getting too large in the future. -- Tothebarricades.tk 23:45, 21 September 2004 (UTC)
I've just noticed that there is a more or less corresponding article at es:Movimiento_obrero_español. The articles don't correspond exactly in their scope, but there is very heavy overlap. (It looks like our article is on the whole the stronger one, but theirs has some material we lack.) I will interwiki link the two and also do a general translation of the Spanish-language article at Talk:Anarchism in Spain/From Spanish so it can be "mined" by whoever is working on this article; there may also be useful material for some other articles. -- Jmabel 07:55, 11 October 2004 (UTC)
It's done. I suggest using strikethrough to mark whatever is either already in this article or is mined for it; also, if it is mined for a different article, a note indicating what article the information was moved to would be helpful. -- Jmabel| Talk 00:18, 13 October 2004 (UTC)
Why was "Thomas, Hugh. The Spanish Civil War. ISBN 0375755152" dropped from the list of references? -- Jmabel | Talk 03:45, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)
I've just stumbled across this article, and I have to say, it's fabulous! Bravo to everybody who contributed. When the dust settles on the POV vandalism just mentioned, what say I nominate it as a featured article candidate? QuartierLatin1968 08:15, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What I added on the todo list might seem a bit vague. People criticized the neutrality of the article in the past when it was nominated for Feautred Article status. What I fear is a line-by-line butchering of the article to include the viewpoints of the opponents of the anarchists at every stage. I think criticisms of anarchism in general are made clear in other articles, so they should not take up space here. I have tried to make the article as neutral as possible without weakening it or slowing it down. Anyone have any thoughts on this issue? -- Tothebarricades.tk 03:01, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hello, I am from Spain and I edited this part. By the way, the article is really good. I just wanted to add that part because: 1) it was requested 2) I think that was the main cause for the split 3) Even if it wasn't, it really makes the difference in today's world between the CGT and the CNT and explains the larger size and importance of the CGT. It is clear that CGT has representatives where anarchism has a long tradition, like in Catalonia and in the railroad sector, but I want to point out that their importance is really much smaller compared to the two larger trade unions. The CNT is viewed as more purist and they really criticize the existing industrial relations model and their bureaucracy and bureaucrats. For example, they commonly describe liberados sindicales (workers who don't work because they have been chosen by their colleagues as their representatives) as parasitos sociales (social parasites), a harsh criticism. They are also against the canon sindical (money that workers pay their union to support it) as they view it as yet another way to exploit the worker. Speaking of the problem of what formerly belonged to the CNT and was seized by Franco and has to be given back someday, it seems impossible to do it due to the split. Anyway, not even mery moderate political parties have recovered fully everything they owned. There are many problems and probably lack of political will to do it. Update on this one (today is 11/29/2005): Apparently, the new socialist government has decided to give back to the CNT most of what belonged to them (and not to the CGT, who will get nothing). It has probably done it because it has also given back to the UGT (the socialist trade union) what belonged to them, just in time for the UGT to repay an important credit with this money. I want to point out that the government has given the unions a monetary compensation and not the actual buildings and presses that belonged to the unions. That would be impossible.
I just reverted the article from this this POV revision:
The links provided offer no convincing evidence. The first link is clearly POV with out-of-context quotations and very general claims. The second is a well-written article though it seems to group every action of the anti-fascist revolution in Spain to be the sole work of the anarchists and is written in highly rhetorial language---
In short, it's a paper written beyond the point of simply clarifying history as it is heavy with it's own agenda.
I recommend that mentions of violence committed by anarchist factions in Spain be included in the article if they were not actions normally committed during wartime but otherwise not worthy of special attention.-- albamuth 07:49, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Should there be some mention of Esperanto? -- Error 02:11, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
where can i find the evidence for this: "Despite the critics clamoring for maximum efficiency, anarchic communes often produced more than before the collectivization."? 217.132.79.165 21:39, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Somebody can help me with the translation?, i am working in es:Anarquismo en España but my english isn't perfect, and i would like if somebody could help me... ( in es.wiki i haven't found this help :( ) Celeron 16:52, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
I think this might be an informative point to include, but I'm not sure where or how to put it. I'll leave it to the regulars. To show just how counterrevolutionary the Communist Party had become, the following was a popular campaign slogan:
"To Save Spain from Marxism, Vote Communist"
--from "Emma Goldman In Exile", by Alice Wexler, pg. 209, Beacon Press Books, 1989
Well Wexler cites it as being from Broue and Temime (both names have 'french marks over 'e'....I don't know how to make my computer do that), 'The Revolution and Civil War in Spain, pg. 211, as well as Brenan, 'The Spanish Labyrinth', pg. 325.
I just dleted the part where it sail that Pi i Margall claimed that Anarchism was related to federalism during the Civil War. Pi died in 1901, so he was waaaay dead when the Cicil War ocurred. Also, I don't find acurate to describe him as a follower of proudhon, since his first theories on federalism preceded Proudhon's for some years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.54.71.134 ( talk) 20:42, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
In Barcelona, squatting is widespread; many of these squatters hold anarchist views. Anarchists produce a local calendar called Info Usurpa [1] that lists around forty explicitly anarchist squats that are organized as social centers (Centros Sociales). These social centers put on events ranging from concerts, community dinners, and workshops to language courses and free internet cafés. They have faced strong opposition from the authorities, including raids and evictions. In 2004, following the eviction of the squat L'Hamsa, squatters smashed the windows of banks and real estate offices, set dumpsters on fire, attacked police cars, and spray painted slogans on the city's walls.
I was thinking of making this change to part of the Today section. I'd like to add something about how this stuff isn't unique to Barcelona, that it's common throughout the country, but haven't figured out how to word it yet. any thoughts? Murderbike 05:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
References
I have edited one word of the article: changing "western neoliberal democracies" to "western liberal democracies". The passage in question refers to the time period of the Spanish Civil War in the 1930's, while neoliberal is a term from the 1960's at the earliest. Therefore, use of neoliberal in this context can be classified simply as a historical inaccuracy. I have gone to the trouble of posting this on the discussion page because I have no expertise in liberalism or political theory, so I have no way of knowing what the best word to use would be. I offer "western liberal democracies" merely as a suggestion and as a call for someone knowledgeable to make a final decision. Gabriel Orion Crawford 03:11, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Image:CNT - La Barrera Inexpugnable.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 12:07, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
What's are libertarian schools and libertarian trade unions? And what does "the organization adopted syndicalism on libertarian principles", "Anarchist militias were remarkably libertarian within themselves" and "they would continue in their libertarian ways" mean? Why does libertarian come up so much? Surely libertarian should be replaced by anarchist. 84.226.8.124 ( talk) 19:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
The following has been deleted from the article:
"The revolution was virtually snuffed out towards the end of the civil war, by the communist/ Stalinist controlled forces who wanted to ensure that the social model adopted in the Spanish Republic would be of their own choosing whilst proving to the western liberal democracies that the USSR would not sponsor social revolutions unfriendly to the established social order."
While it's not ideal, there doesn't seem to be much in the article at present that shows the extent of how the Stalinists sought to undermine the anarchists, especially the Barcelona May Days.
Lapsed Pacifist ( talk) 19:56, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
The section "The popular Front" there is the text: "Throughout the countryside, almost 5 km^2 of land were taken over by squatters." Is this correct? It is unreferenced and seems like an awfully small amount of rural land to take note of. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.155.30 ( talk) 22:18, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
Image:Anarchism in Spain Fascism Snake.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 04:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I just read the section on anarchists in the civil war, and I have to say that it is apparent from within the first paragraph right to the end of that section that this is somebody's undergraduate essay copied+pasted. There is lots of POV (about what is/is not surprising), random speculation (about who may or may not have assassinated whom) and barely any referencing. The writing style is very poor. This is not my subject, so I don't have time to make any more of an intervention than this, but I strongly suggest someone remedy these issues, or it will continue to look like (at least that section, I haven't read any more of the article) has been penned by one paranoid armchair anarchist historian... This section should be really interesting, but instead its a mess - there's no rhyme or reason to the structure and some really dubious content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.164.158.57 ( talk) 11:15, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Impressive article. I feel that I should something more to equate to it's grandness, but don't know anything. Good work. And I changed somewhere in the article "socialist comrades" to just "socialists". Many of anarchists of those days had a hard time seeing socialists as comrades and so do I. - Non-Sec
Good work, an interesting read! -- Sam Francis
The article is very good. Something I think should be added, but I don't know enough to properly add it myself: discussion of anarchism in contemporary Spain should include something about anarchist atheneums and bookstores. -- Jmabel 01:07, Aug 28, 2004 (UTC)
ANOTHER WORLD IS POSSIBLE ! NEVER FORGET ! SLAVES RISE UP !
Superb article! Je.est.un.autre ( talk) 03:20, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
Ramón María Narváez was the Duke of Valencia, not the Duke of Galicia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.41.238.231 ( talk) 22:44, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
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"Communists had some influence, but their numbers were small; the Communist Party had perhaps 1,000 members in 1934 compared with the UGT's 1.44 million and the CNT's 1.58 million"
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/no-pasaran-a-republican-spain-aar.336305/
I google searched this sentence and the only reference I could find is video game text from paradox form. Not sure if this is official game text but either way I think this should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.157.30.9 ( talk) 21:45, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
As noted on the WP:FAC page, this article needed to standardize its capitalization of "Anarchist", "Communist", "Socialist", and "Republican". I attempted to do so using the following criteria:
These conventions seem to be standard. (See: anarchism, communism, socialism...) I may have miscapitalized here and there though — if you find any mistakes, please feel free to fix them. • Benc • 02:18, 28 August 2004 (UTC)
I added the tag "Main Article: Spanish Revolution" under the "1936 Revolution" header. At present, they are indeed the same; but it would be better to have an entire article on the Revolution, and it would keep this article from getting too large in the future. -- Tothebarricades.tk 23:45, 21 September 2004 (UTC)
I've just noticed that there is a more or less corresponding article at es:Movimiento_obrero_español. The articles don't correspond exactly in their scope, but there is very heavy overlap. (It looks like our article is on the whole the stronger one, but theirs has some material we lack.) I will interwiki link the two and also do a general translation of the Spanish-language article at Talk:Anarchism in Spain/From Spanish so it can be "mined" by whoever is working on this article; there may also be useful material for some other articles. -- Jmabel 07:55, 11 October 2004 (UTC)
It's done. I suggest using strikethrough to mark whatever is either already in this article or is mined for it; also, if it is mined for a different article, a note indicating what article the information was moved to would be helpful. -- Jmabel| Talk 00:18, 13 October 2004 (UTC)
Why was "Thomas, Hugh. The Spanish Civil War. ISBN 0375755152" dropped from the list of references? -- Jmabel | Talk 03:45, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)
I've just stumbled across this article, and I have to say, it's fabulous! Bravo to everybody who contributed. When the dust settles on the POV vandalism just mentioned, what say I nominate it as a featured article candidate? QuartierLatin1968 08:15, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What I added on the todo list might seem a bit vague. People criticized the neutrality of the article in the past when it was nominated for Feautred Article status. What I fear is a line-by-line butchering of the article to include the viewpoints of the opponents of the anarchists at every stage. I think criticisms of anarchism in general are made clear in other articles, so they should not take up space here. I have tried to make the article as neutral as possible without weakening it or slowing it down. Anyone have any thoughts on this issue? -- Tothebarricades.tk 03:01, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hello, I am from Spain and I edited this part. By the way, the article is really good. I just wanted to add that part because: 1) it was requested 2) I think that was the main cause for the split 3) Even if it wasn't, it really makes the difference in today's world between the CGT and the CNT and explains the larger size and importance of the CGT. It is clear that CGT has representatives where anarchism has a long tradition, like in Catalonia and in the railroad sector, but I want to point out that their importance is really much smaller compared to the two larger trade unions. The CNT is viewed as more purist and they really criticize the existing industrial relations model and their bureaucracy and bureaucrats. For example, they commonly describe liberados sindicales (workers who don't work because they have been chosen by their colleagues as their representatives) as parasitos sociales (social parasites), a harsh criticism. They are also against the canon sindical (money that workers pay their union to support it) as they view it as yet another way to exploit the worker. Speaking of the problem of what formerly belonged to the CNT and was seized by Franco and has to be given back someday, it seems impossible to do it due to the split. Anyway, not even mery moderate political parties have recovered fully everything they owned. There are many problems and probably lack of political will to do it. Update on this one (today is 11/29/2005): Apparently, the new socialist government has decided to give back to the CNT most of what belonged to them (and not to the CGT, who will get nothing). It has probably done it because it has also given back to the UGT (the socialist trade union) what belonged to them, just in time for the UGT to repay an important credit with this money. I want to point out that the government has given the unions a monetary compensation and not the actual buildings and presses that belonged to the unions. That would be impossible.
I just reverted the article from this this POV revision:
The links provided offer no convincing evidence. The first link is clearly POV with out-of-context quotations and very general claims. The second is a well-written article though it seems to group every action of the anti-fascist revolution in Spain to be the sole work of the anarchists and is written in highly rhetorial language---
In short, it's a paper written beyond the point of simply clarifying history as it is heavy with it's own agenda.
I recommend that mentions of violence committed by anarchist factions in Spain be included in the article if they were not actions normally committed during wartime but otherwise not worthy of special attention.-- albamuth 07:49, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Should there be some mention of Esperanto? -- Error 02:11, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
where can i find the evidence for this: "Despite the critics clamoring for maximum efficiency, anarchic communes often produced more than before the collectivization."? 217.132.79.165 21:39, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Somebody can help me with the translation?, i am working in es:Anarquismo en España but my english isn't perfect, and i would like if somebody could help me... ( in es.wiki i haven't found this help :( ) Celeron 16:52, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
I think this might be an informative point to include, but I'm not sure where or how to put it. I'll leave it to the regulars. To show just how counterrevolutionary the Communist Party had become, the following was a popular campaign slogan:
"To Save Spain from Marxism, Vote Communist"
--from "Emma Goldman In Exile", by Alice Wexler, pg. 209, Beacon Press Books, 1989
Well Wexler cites it as being from Broue and Temime (both names have 'french marks over 'e'....I don't know how to make my computer do that), 'The Revolution and Civil War in Spain, pg. 211, as well as Brenan, 'The Spanish Labyrinth', pg. 325.
I just dleted the part where it sail that Pi i Margall claimed that Anarchism was related to federalism during the Civil War. Pi died in 1901, so he was waaaay dead when the Cicil War ocurred. Also, I don't find acurate to describe him as a follower of proudhon, since his first theories on federalism preceded Proudhon's for some years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.54.71.134 ( talk) 20:42, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
In Barcelona, squatting is widespread; many of these squatters hold anarchist views. Anarchists produce a local calendar called Info Usurpa [1] that lists around forty explicitly anarchist squats that are organized as social centers (Centros Sociales). These social centers put on events ranging from concerts, community dinners, and workshops to language courses and free internet cafés. They have faced strong opposition from the authorities, including raids and evictions. In 2004, following the eviction of the squat L'Hamsa, squatters smashed the windows of banks and real estate offices, set dumpsters on fire, attacked police cars, and spray painted slogans on the city's walls.
I was thinking of making this change to part of the Today section. I'd like to add something about how this stuff isn't unique to Barcelona, that it's common throughout the country, but haven't figured out how to word it yet. any thoughts? Murderbike 05:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
References
I have edited one word of the article: changing "western neoliberal democracies" to "western liberal democracies". The passage in question refers to the time period of the Spanish Civil War in the 1930's, while neoliberal is a term from the 1960's at the earliest. Therefore, use of neoliberal in this context can be classified simply as a historical inaccuracy. I have gone to the trouble of posting this on the discussion page because I have no expertise in liberalism or political theory, so I have no way of knowing what the best word to use would be. I offer "western liberal democracies" merely as a suggestion and as a call for someone knowledgeable to make a final decision. Gabriel Orion Crawford 03:11, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Image:CNT - La Barrera Inexpugnable.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 12:07, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
What's are libertarian schools and libertarian trade unions? And what does "the organization adopted syndicalism on libertarian principles", "Anarchist militias were remarkably libertarian within themselves" and "they would continue in their libertarian ways" mean? Why does libertarian come up so much? Surely libertarian should be replaced by anarchist. 84.226.8.124 ( talk) 19:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
The following has been deleted from the article:
"The revolution was virtually snuffed out towards the end of the civil war, by the communist/ Stalinist controlled forces who wanted to ensure that the social model adopted in the Spanish Republic would be of their own choosing whilst proving to the western liberal democracies that the USSR would not sponsor social revolutions unfriendly to the established social order."
While it's not ideal, there doesn't seem to be much in the article at present that shows the extent of how the Stalinists sought to undermine the anarchists, especially the Barcelona May Days.
Lapsed Pacifist ( talk) 19:56, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
The section "The popular Front" there is the text: "Throughout the countryside, almost 5 km^2 of land were taken over by squatters." Is this correct? It is unreferenced and seems like an awfully small amount of rural land to take note of. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.155.30 ( talk) 22:18, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
Image:Anarchism in Spain Fascism Snake.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 04:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I just read the section on anarchists in the civil war, and I have to say that it is apparent from within the first paragraph right to the end of that section that this is somebody's undergraduate essay copied+pasted. There is lots of POV (about what is/is not surprising), random speculation (about who may or may not have assassinated whom) and barely any referencing. The writing style is very poor. This is not my subject, so I don't have time to make any more of an intervention than this, but I strongly suggest someone remedy these issues, or it will continue to look like (at least that section, I haven't read any more of the article) has been penned by one paranoid armchair anarchist historian... This section should be really interesting, but instead its a mess - there's no rhyme or reason to the structure and some really dubious content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.164.158.57 ( talk) 11:15, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Impressive article. I feel that I should something more to equate to it's grandness, but don't know anything. Good work. And I changed somewhere in the article "socialist comrades" to just "socialists". Many of anarchists of those days had a hard time seeing socialists as comrades and so do I. - Non-Sec
Good work, an interesting read! -- Sam Francis
The article is very good. Something I think should be added, but I don't know enough to properly add it myself: discussion of anarchism in contemporary Spain should include something about anarchist atheneums and bookstores. -- Jmabel 01:07, Aug 28, 2004 (UTC)
ANOTHER WORLD IS POSSIBLE ! NEVER FORGET ! SLAVES RISE UP !
Superb article! Je.est.un.autre ( talk) 03:20, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
Ramón María Narváez was the Duke of Valencia, not the Duke of Galicia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.41.238.231 ( talk) 22:44, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Cheers. Lowercase sigmabot III ( talk) 01:15, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
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Cheers. Lowercase sigmabot III ( talk) 01:15, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
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Cheers. Lowercase sigmabot III ( talk) 01:15, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
"Communists had some influence, but their numbers were small; the Communist Party had perhaps 1,000 members in 1934 compared with the UGT's 1.44 million and the CNT's 1.58 million"
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/no-pasaran-a-republican-spain-aar.336305/
I google searched this sentence and the only reference I could find is video game text from paradox form. Not sure if this is official game text but either way I think this should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.157.30.9 ( talk) 21:45, 9 August 2020 (UTC)