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Archive 1 |
Was Jesus a Jewish anarchist? His ideas were certainly unpopular with the Jewish hierarchy and the Sanhedrin, as they posed a threat to the status quo. nirvana2013 08:56, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
There were both, authoritarian and anti-authoritarian tendencies within early Christianity, and within the Pharisee society as well. The Sanhedrin represented the most popular religious movement; its members were often persecuted, killed and tortured by the authorities. Jesus's ideas posed a threat to the local Roman authorities, but he was - argueably - not any more anti-authoritarian, than many Pharisee figures, mentioned in the Talmud, including quite a few members of the Sanhedrin (although, perhaps, he was much more antinomian, which is not always the same thing).
From the perspective of the Christian Anarchists, Jesus was an anarchist. However, the objective of this artcile is to show the anarchist ideas and tendencies, that lay within more or less traditional streams of Judaism (hence the title - Anarchism and Judaism). Today, Jesus is usually associated with Christianity, rather then Judaism, though he was personally a religious Jew.
Laplandian 22:20, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
This page should be renamed "Anarchy and Orthodoxy" or "Anarchism and Eastern Europe piety." There were plenty of Jewish anarchists at the turn of the last century who were not religious in the modern sense of the word and still based their anarchy on their Judaism. There is a continuous thread on this page of if the author was "Orthodox or not." More than a contradiction in terms for an anarchist! SO the page should either be renamed as Orthodox or the lines about people being Orthodox need to be removed. Also the prime Jewish anrachist was Buber who created an entire langauge of Jewish anarchism- that language is lacking on this page.
Also Abrabanel while anti-monarch was a completly conservative thinker and does not belong.-- Jayrav 20:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
The page confuses "open source," liberalism, anti-war, and common folk with anarchism in many places and needs a serious editoral clean up. Much of your European material is better about the folksbienne popularist Dubnow than anarchism.-- Jayrav 20:34, 26 January 2007 (UTC) I would also advise a serious clean up of the material that is original research and original opinions- some very personal- so that the whole page does not get deleted. Look up OR - original research in wiki-- Jayrav 20:41, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Please see WP:SYNT - to clean up the original research. -- Jayrav 14:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I renamed this article "Anarchism and Orthodox Judaism" ("Orthodoxy" might be misinterpreted as Christian or some other orthodox religious tradition). You are right, it is all about traditional halachic Judaism. I just copied the name from a subtitle in Anarchism and religion, without thinking into it. I personally find anarchists, who seriously adhere to religious traditions, the most appealing and interesting of all anarchists - whether it's Orthodox Jews, Zapatista Shamans, Quakers, Daoists etc. Serious religious people, especially mystics, are hackers of reality and mind. Therefore I wrote exactly about the Orthodox.
I don't see any contradiction between anarchism and adhering or preaching a particular religion, and there are always been religious anarchist people and movements (such as the founders and some members of the Catholic Worker Movement). Most anarchists view anarchist society as a stateless communist federation of syndicates, cooperatives and councils. Basically, anarchism is voluntary communism. Actually, many anarchists avoid the term "anarchy", because it's commonly associated with nihilism and lack of order. Communes can be as conservative as they want to be, as long as they don't impose their principles by force. Actually, many religious anarchist movements, such as Russian Dukhobors, are quite ascetic and particularistic. Tolsoyans also held by very conservative principles (modesty, chastity, celibacy etc.). So what? No one forced them to do so. Tolstoyan communes were a beautiful example of free classless society. Liberal lifestyle has little to do with the class struggle.
You are right about Abarbanel. Perhaps, he was no more anarchist, then Marxists, who also believe, that the state will dissapear in some remote future. I modeled this article more or less after Christian Anarchism, which also includes information about anti-war, vegetarianism, yoga and meditation and hypothetic thoughts about pre-Church Christianity. Some of these themes are relevant to anarchist thought and provide useful information. I know, that the page is still very raw, and I would like to hear more suggestions about it. What original research exactly are you talking about? Laplandian 17:08, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I edited a few things and made clear, that I meant exactly Orthodox Judaism and, primarily, socialist anarchism. Hence, various anti-capitalist and anti-property ideas clearly belong here. BTW, what's "liberal" in this article? Laplandian 23:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I have deleted the link to the blog * Anarcho-Judaism, because it seems to be inapropriate for a serious encyclopedia article. The blog does not seem to represent any consistent anarchist viewpoint (I was not even able to figure out, whether the author is religous or anti-religious, syndicalist/communist, individualist or just some anarchistically inclined troubled kid). IMHO, the blog sounds like a collection of totally random rebellious thoughts. Because the link was posted anonymously, I am not able to discuss the issue and have to delete it. Laplandian 15:05, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
You should not be using a comma before "that" in most cases. The Bible indicates, that the pre-monarchic Jewish society was anarchistic -> The Bible indicates that the pre-monarchic ....
Judaism accepts, that truth is relative -> Judaism accepts that truth is relative
Parselmouth 05:25, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
In the "Social System" section, the cite to Avot for "What's mine is yours" etc. should be 5:13, not 5:10. Now fixed. JBJD ( talk) 01:52, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
On 16:16, 13 June 2010 someone had inserted anonymously a parapraph, claiming that Judaism "clearly mandates" the expulsion of the Palestinians and forbids to make peace with them. Added a refutation and moved it to the Criticisms section. Laplandian ( talk) 15:16, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Was Jesus a Jewish anarchist? His ideas were certainly unpopular with the Jewish hierarchy and the Sanhedrin, as they posed a threat to the status quo. nirvana2013 08:56, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
There were both, authoritarian and anti-authoritarian tendencies within early Christianity, and within the Pharisee society as well. The Sanhedrin represented the most popular religious movement; its members were often persecuted, killed and tortured by the authorities. Jesus's ideas posed a threat to the local Roman authorities, but he was - argueably - not any more anti-authoritarian, than many Pharisee figures, mentioned in the Talmud, including quite a few members of the Sanhedrin (although, perhaps, he was much more antinomian, which is not always the same thing).
From the perspective of the Christian Anarchists, Jesus was an anarchist. However, the objective of this artcile is to show the anarchist ideas and tendencies, that lay within more or less traditional streams of Judaism (hence the title - Anarchism and Judaism). Today, Jesus is usually associated with Christianity, rather then Judaism, though he was personally a religious Jew.
Laplandian 22:20, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
This page should be renamed "Anarchy and Orthodoxy" or "Anarchism and Eastern Europe piety." There were plenty of Jewish anarchists at the turn of the last century who were not religious in the modern sense of the word and still based their anarchy on their Judaism. There is a continuous thread on this page of if the author was "Orthodox or not." More than a contradiction in terms for an anarchist! SO the page should either be renamed as Orthodox or the lines about people being Orthodox need to be removed. Also the prime Jewish anrachist was Buber who created an entire langauge of Jewish anarchism- that language is lacking on this page.
Also Abrabanel while anti-monarch was a completly conservative thinker and does not belong.-- Jayrav 20:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
The page confuses "open source," liberalism, anti-war, and common folk with anarchism in many places and needs a serious editoral clean up. Much of your European material is better about the folksbienne popularist Dubnow than anarchism.-- Jayrav 20:34, 26 January 2007 (UTC) I would also advise a serious clean up of the material that is original research and original opinions- some very personal- so that the whole page does not get deleted. Look up OR - original research in wiki-- Jayrav 20:41, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Please see WP:SYNT - to clean up the original research. -- Jayrav 14:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I renamed this article "Anarchism and Orthodox Judaism" ("Orthodoxy" might be misinterpreted as Christian or some other orthodox religious tradition). You are right, it is all about traditional halachic Judaism. I just copied the name from a subtitle in Anarchism and religion, without thinking into it. I personally find anarchists, who seriously adhere to religious traditions, the most appealing and interesting of all anarchists - whether it's Orthodox Jews, Zapatista Shamans, Quakers, Daoists etc. Serious religious people, especially mystics, are hackers of reality and mind. Therefore I wrote exactly about the Orthodox.
I don't see any contradiction between anarchism and adhering or preaching a particular religion, and there are always been religious anarchist people and movements (such as the founders and some members of the Catholic Worker Movement). Most anarchists view anarchist society as a stateless communist federation of syndicates, cooperatives and councils. Basically, anarchism is voluntary communism. Actually, many anarchists avoid the term "anarchy", because it's commonly associated with nihilism and lack of order. Communes can be as conservative as they want to be, as long as they don't impose their principles by force. Actually, many religious anarchist movements, such as Russian Dukhobors, are quite ascetic and particularistic. Tolsoyans also held by very conservative principles (modesty, chastity, celibacy etc.). So what? No one forced them to do so. Tolstoyan communes were a beautiful example of free classless society. Liberal lifestyle has little to do with the class struggle.
You are right about Abarbanel. Perhaps, he was no more anarchist, then Marxists, who also believe, that the state will dissapear in some remote future. I modeled this article more or less after Christian Anarchism, which also includes information about anti-war, vegetarianism, yoga and meditation and hypothetic thoughts about pre-Church Christianity. Some of these themes are relevant to anarchist thought and provide useful information. I know, that the page is still very raw, and I would like to hear more suggestions about it. What original research exactly are you talking about? Laplandian 17:08, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I edited a few things and made clear, that I meant exactly Orthodox Judaism and, primarily, socialist anarchism. Hence, various anti-capitalist and anti-property ideas clearly belong here. BTW, what's "liberal" in this article? Laplandian 23:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I have deleted the link to the blog * Anarcho-Judaism, because it seems to be inapropriate for a serious encyclopedia article. The blog does not seem to represent any consistent anarchist viewpoint (I was not even able to figure out, whether the author is religous or anti-religious, syndicalist/communist, individualist or just some anarchistically inclined troubled kid). IMHO, the blog sounds like a collection of totally random rebellious thoughts. Because the link was posted anonymously, I am not able to discuss the issue and have to delete it. Laplandian 15:05, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
You should not be using a comma before "that" in most cases. The Bible indicates, that the pre-monarchic Jewish society was anarchistic -> The Bible indicates that the pre-monarchic ....
Judaism accepts, that truth is relative -> Judaism accepts that truth is relative
Parselmouth 05:25, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
In the "Social System" section, the cite to Avot for "What's mine is yours" etc. should be 5:13, not 5:10. Now fixed. JBJD ( talk) 01:52, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
On 16:16, 13 June 2010 someone had inserted anonymously a parapraph, claiming that Judaism "clearly mandates" the expulsion of the Palestinians and forbids to make peace with them. Added a refutation and moved it to the Criticisms section. Laplandian ( talk) 15:16, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Anarchism and Orthodox Judaism. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:05, 13 September 2017 (UTC)