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In the current picture visible in this section is not clear whether the people there are anarchist or not. Instead I propose adding in this section a picture of italian anarchist Camillo Berneri who died in Spain fighting as a volunteer againts the Franco uprising.-- Eduen ( talk) 01:33, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
I've asked this question before on the market anarchism article, and there's never a coherent explanation. Why are we linking and associating market anarchism with Rothbard and company? Why not Mutualism or market socialism, like Tucker's or Spooner's formulation, for example, which had been far more prominent in anarchist history? Is there a reason for conflating markets and capitalism? Finx ( talk) 04:33, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
to delete the sentence "Some individualist anarchists are also socialists or communists[21][22] while some anarcho-communists are also individualists.[23][24]" at the end of the second paragraph in the article. It seems out of place. An alternative would be to move it somewhere else? Any objections? Greybirch ( talk) 05:32, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
"As a subtle and anti-dogmatic philosophy, anarchism draws on many currents of thought and strategy. Anarchism does not offer a fixed body of doctrine from a single particular world view, instead fluxing and flowing as a philosophy.[15] There are many types and traditions of anarchism, not all of which are mutually exclusive.[16] Anarchist schools of thought can differ fundamentally, supporting anything from extreme individualism to complete collectivism.[2]"
As I see it from reading the next paragraph it is clear that there are internal debates and disagreements within anarchism no there is no need for this sentence "Anarchism does not offer a fixed body of doctrine from a single particular world view, instead fluxing and flowing as a philosophy.[15] There are many types and traditions of anarchism, not all of which are mutually exclusive.[16] Anarchist schools of thought can differ fundamentally, supporting anything from extreme individualism to complete collectivism.[2]"
So I propose merging this paragraph with the next one in this way:
"As a subtle and anti-dogmatic philosophy, anarchism draws on many currents of thought and strategy. Anarchism does not offer a fixed body of doctrine from a single particular world view, instead fluxing and flowing as a philosophy.[15]Strains of anarchism have often been divided into the categories of social and individualist anarchism or similar dual classifications.[17][18] Anarchism is often considered a radical left-wing ideology,[19][20] and much of anarchist economics and anarchist legal philosophy reflect anti-statist interpretations of communism, collectivism, syndicalism, or participatory economics."
This also since this talk of "extreme individualism and complete collectivism" might be better put just by pointing out that anarchism is an attempt to reconcile individual sovereignty with horizontal social relationships and others have put it more simply as reconciling liberty with equality.-- Eduen ( talk) 19:17, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
In the article "anarchocommunism" the issue of individualism vs. society was dealt with in the following form:
"Some forms of anarchist communism such as insurrectionary anarchism are strongly influenced by egoism and radical individualism, believing anarcho-communism is the best social system for the realization of individual freedom.[13][14][15][16] Most anarcho-communists view anarcho-communism as a way of reconciling the opposition between the individual and society.[17][18][19][20][21]"-- Eduen ( talk) 19:20, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
I also propose that we change this part where it says "reflect anti-statist interpretations of communism, collectivism, syndicalism, or participatory economics." for "reflect anti-authoritarian interpretations..." since it is clear that anrchism is not reducible to anti-statism as the first paragraph shows.-- Eduen ( talk) 19:38, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
I reverted the changes made by User:BakuninGoldmanKropotkin because they don't belong in the lede.
According to WP:LEDE, "Apart from trivial basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article." This was not the case here, where the only material about Israel or kibbutzim was added to the lede. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 04:47, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
I agree with a modified version of this proposal by User:BakuninGoldmanKropotkin to be added after the sentence in the introduction which says that "anarchism as a social movement..."
"Aside from the aforementioned Spanish Revolution, other examples of anarchist-related revolutions include the Paris Commune of 1871, Strandzha Commune of 1903, Mexican Revolution of 1910, Free Territory from 1919 to 1921, Tambov Rebellion from 1920 to 1921, Kronstadt Rebellion of 1921, Third Russian Revolution from 1918 to 1922, Revolutionary Catalonia from 1936 to 1939, and the Zapatista Uprising starting from 1994 continuing into the present."
Personally i will take out Strandzha Commune, Mexican Revolution and Zapatista Uprising since self-described anarchist participation in these is not too strong and as far as the Zapatista Uprising, non-existent.-- Eduen ( talk) 04:53, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
This article seems to be written by men as it excludes many influential female intellectual anarchists such as Emma Goldman. Could someone please include Emma Goldman (and her picture) in this article (as she was far more influential than her Russian counterpart)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Combating Ignorance ( talk • contribs) 21:05, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Emma Goldman is mentioned here various times. A photo of Goldman is included in the libertarian socialism article.-- Eduen ( talk) 00:19, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Both terms (NON-HIERARCHICAL ORGANIZATIONS AND VOLUNTARY ASSOCIATIONS) have diferent references, as diferent entities. Not because are opposed, maybe yes or maybe not, just because are diferents concepts and with diferent sources. [1] Common sense. -- Sageo ( talk) 17:18, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Voluntary relationships on themselves are not forms of anarchy. Both employment in state offices and capitalist salaried work are voluntary relationships but no one has dared to call those things forms of anarchy. Anarchy means absence of hierarchies.-- Eduen ( talk) 00:28, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
No, not all forms of libertarianism are capitalist, despite the common American usage of the word. “ Minarchism” is a word you may want to look into. One way to classify the different forms of libertarianism is anarchism-versus-minarchism, which is a more pertinent fact to be pointed out in that section. EIN ( talk) 17:55, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
I have begun re-writing this article-- (which now appears to be locked in order to prevent edits??)-- to include the idea that anarchism is not merely the political philosophy which *opposes* the existence of the state, but also that 'anarchist' political philosophy may include the recognition of the absence of the state, or the illegitimacy of institutions (such as political organizations such as a State, or state, or states). Also, the inclusion of the idea that anarchism may be the opposition or recognition of both legitimate as well as illegitimate authority or government. -- here is the beginning of the new article.
Anarchism may be defined as a political philosophy which opposes or refuses government, authority, or other rule-making organizations, or as political political stemming from the recognition of the illegitimacy, or absence of government. In the case of the ladder, 'anarchyism' expresses no preference as to whether government is fundamentally harmful or beneficial to society, but rather is the socio-political philosophy resulting from such illegitmacy and/or absence. Anarchyism may also advocate opposition to illegimate hierarchies, rules, laws, or corrupt institutions and authority, in such cases anarchyism may be seen as anti-authoritarian. Anarchist philosophy may also include the opposition of all hiearchies and authority irrespective of its legitimacy, and opposition to all rules and rule-making organizations. Anarchists, may be a group defined as including the people working in the opposition of government or hierarchial instutitons, as well as the thinkers or philosophers who's reasoning concerns the existence or non-existence or legitimacy of governments, authority, or institutions. For example, if for some purpose one were to define a period of time years 1-25 as defined by the absence of government, the political thinkers of this period of time could be described as 'Anarchists'.
As the existence or legitimacy of government is a central concern of 'anarchists', many schools of political philosophy may be seen as relating to 'anarchist' reasoning, including: socialism, democracy, republicanism, communism, and fascism.
As 'anarchism' is a political philosophy centered on the existence or non-existence of government, it does not concern itself with economic philosophy and neither advocates a monetary or non-monetary system of valuation, though the abolition of government necessarily suggests a non-monetary system of valuation. Some anarchist thinking concerned with the legitimacy of government, may advocate systems of valuation that do not derive their authority from the institution of dubious credibility.
Some forms of 'anarchism', which refuse the authority of government institutions such as correctional or justice systems, central banks, traffic administration, reglatory agencies, law enforcement groups or agencies,
-Anaceus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.51.85.203 ( talk) 18:00, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
A lot to debate with here. I can have to remind you that you will have to support almost every sentence here with good sources. Otherwise you can also propose a particular change in a sentence that is present in the current version. This is a wikipedia "good article" and it will be nice if it will stay that way.-- Eduen ( talk) 20:11, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Is AK Press a reliable source? Also Eduen seems to be engaging in Gatekeeping. Schonchin ( talk) 20:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
Eduen, I've provided (albeit brief) explanations for my recent edits. What are your objections and what do you think would be better? I think the article currently has a very awkward structure. I'll be sure to not make any more edits (other than very small ones pertaining to grammar, etc). Thank you for being so passionate about this article. I look forward to working with you on this (since we're apparently the only two people who are interested in restructuring this page right now). Byelf2007 ( talk) 13 February 2012
On my recent edits I have to question again some things that Byelf2007 never responded to. Instead he just went and edited the article as he wanted.
I will talk about his version visible here which I reverted some things back to their previous state.
1. Lets consider this sentence Byelf2007 added in the introduction. The individualist wing of anarchism emphasises negative liberty, i.e. opposition to state or social control over the individual, while those in the social wing emphasise positive liberty to achieve one's potential and argue that humans have needs that society ought to fulfill, "recognizing equality of entitlement"
The language of "negative liberty" and "positive liberty" is of relevance within liberalism and it comes from there and is it used mainly there (also not too important for example in marxism). Within anarchism there is not an important use of those terms as it can be seen in main historical works on anarchism as written by anarchist historians such as George Woodcock, Max Nettlau and Daniel Guerin. It is also not present within the main classical theorists of anarchism such as Proudhon, Stirner, Bakunin, Kropotkin, Malatesta, Tucker, etc. If these concepts have been applied to anarchism, they nevertheless do not belong to the anarchist tradition and so they don´t deserve a mention in this introduction. But even if we were to aplly the concepts of "negative liberty" social anarchism is also obviously an anti-state position and so it could also be said to be a negative liberty position in a way since it want liberty FROM the centralized nation state. And so for example the catalan anarchists during the Spanish Civil War tried to end connection with the Spanish Republican State after they took over Barcelona and adjecent areas. The Ukranian anarchist did the same in respect to the crumbling Tsarist Russian State and also rejected the Bolchevik Soviet state. And so at most these concepts become problematic in a context for which they were not designed.
2. Byelf2007 Deleted from the introduction this very importance parragraph "Anarchism as a social movement has regularly endured fluctuations in popularity. The central tendency of anarchism as a mass social movement has been represented by anarcho-communism and anarcho-syndicalism, with individualist anarchism being primarily a literary phenomenon[25] which nevertheless did have an impact on the bigger currents[26] and individualists also participated in large anarchist organizations.[27][28] Most anarchists oppose all forms of aggression, supporting self-defense or non-violence (anarcho-pacifism),[29][30] while others have supported the use of some coercive measures, including violent revolution and propaganda of the deed, on the path to an anarchist society.[31]
I don´t want to guess why he did that. My point here is that this paragraph that User:Byelf2007 deleted shows anarchism has reached at some points mass movement status and even big anarchist militias and continues in some form or other to be an activist and radical direct action and organized movement. Anarchism cannot be reduced as a mere literary philosophical phenomenon as his proposed version of an introduction does.
3. As can be seen in this talk section of this article and in previous editions of this article (and not just because of my opposition), user Byelf2007 never got a consensus for his proposal for an "Overview" section. Nevertheless he continues to insist on this.
4. On the inclusion of specific sections for the classical schools of thought of anarcho-communism, collectivist anarchism and anarcho-syndicalism, he seemed to agree with me and so I only made small changes to those parts.
A better first sentence would be "Anarchism advocates stateless societies based on non-hierarchical free associations." I made this edit but it was reverted. The current first three sentences weasel around a couple of different definitions of the word leaving the article without a topic. It's ok to argue about defining a word but without defining a topic in the first sentence you don't have an article. Bhny ( talk) 23:43, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Since i have been too busy living i didn´t have the time to come around here but like i said in my reversion of your edit we can´t begin the definition of anarchism this way since etymologically anarchism means to negate rule. Non-hierarchical relations are an implication of this first sense and so it will have to go second. As it stands now the article begins in a very strange form and i have never seen a definition of anarchism beginning in the form you propose. I have to ask you to bring outside support for your proposal. But also in your proposal you are not even saying what anarchism is. The previous versions started with the obvious statement establishing anarchism is a political philosophy. I think your proposal is highly defective because of these things and i also hope we can avoid an edit war.-- Eduen ( talk) 02:24, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
User Knight of BAAWA says that "t *HAS BEEN* discussed on the talk page MANY MANY TIMES. The decision reached years ago was to not kick ideas out of the tree." We can very well ask him to show us where that "consensus" was reached.
Since we live in the now and not in the yesterday we can also decide to not include the Bizzarely titled radical neoliberal (and as such non anarchist) philosophy which a US economist decided to call it "anarcho-capitalism". I also remind everyone interested that there also exists another "innovative" union of disparate political positions called " national anarchism" which tries to mix anarchism with fascism. "national anarchism" has been left out of this article and as such we can also decide to leave out "anarchocapitalism". The article on anarchism on the Encyclopedia Brittanica does not mention at all "anarcho" capitalism for example just as the wikipedia article on christianity does not mention small highly controversial sects like Pelagianism, Donatism, Marcionism, Montanism or something more recent such as Christian Science. But while the Christianity article does not metion Donatism at all, wikipedia nevertheless keeps the donatism article. As such we can also decide something similar with "anarcho" capitalism. In this case to not mention it in this article will be clearly justified due to the exclusion of "anarcho" capitalism from most important sources on anarchism in the english language. Nevertheless that does not mean asking for the deletion of the " anarcho-capitalism" article from wikipedia and a good reason for that is that "anarcho-capitalism" as a political position is clearly more logical as a form of, and is clearly both historically and philosophically related with, economic liberalism. Hopefully this dialogue can help us avoid the edit war which has been going on in this article.-- Eduen ( talk) 15:28, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
The Anarchist Task Force was created some years ago to promote interanarchist cooperation in editing wikpedia. In recent years, the task force has come into disuse, but it's basic objective remains important, and I would encourage each of the editors involved in this discussion to recall its early principals. Even if a particular aspect of anarchist philosophy is seen as not being part of anarchism by an individual, or an entire sector of anarchists, the disputed branch must remain valuable in reference to anarchism by it's impact. For this reason, anarcho-capitalism remains an important part of this article if only for it's relationship to contemporary anarchist thought and history. The very nature of this controversy is proof that each of you are aware of this. I encourage the inclusion of information and appropriate citation for that point. The article should reflect at least that, if nothing else. -- Cast ( talk) 03:31, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
Anyone can check my interventions in anarchist related articles in wikipedia and that person will see that i have been editing those articles in a continous form since more than 3 years ago. In all of that time the Anarchist Task Force has been completely a non acting entity as far as my experience. Discussions occur in the talk sections of the specific article and as far as my option i prefer them to occur there for transparency and for that reason i hardly use even my wikipedia User page at all. For this reason i am very surprised to hear an argument here for abiding to an agreement reached by something that died out a long time ago created by users who seems don´t even participate in editing wikipedia anymore and also i am not suprised at all that user TFD didn´t even know that such thing existed. Even the idea of an "anarchist task force" within an enciclopedia seems strange to me since here we are not writing panphlets or ideological presentations of "our" positions between "Rogues?" 'but something that tries to be as objective as possible as as such whether one is an anarchist or not is something that doesn´t matter. If i have the sources i can well go edit the Fascism or the nazism articles and have those articles keep the changes i made even though i personally despise those things and even though a nazi or fascist editor or the fascist or nazi "task force" might object to them.-- Eduen ( talk) 10:42, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
"And on that note, I would just shift to your point on the inclusion of "fringe" perspective-- which feels forced, since all of anarchism is fringe. (We're not a major force in the world, after all.)"
"The "national anarchist" current you refer to is less than a decade old, has a very minor publication history, and no history of participation in historical events or impact on political thinking, as anarcho-capitalism does. Those are not adequate comparisons."
Since I have not received any response on this then we might need to start dealing with " anarcho-capitalism" and " national anarchism" equally within this article.-- Eduen ( talk) 20:08, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
I am not sure whether the admonition to read the whole article was ironic, but it would seem that Eduen has not fully read the article on proudhonian mutualism in which some editors have been kind enough to include a section on criticisms. Not everyone accepted Proudhon's position. Also the request for Knight of BAAWA to debate his definition of capitalism on this page is clearly inappropriate. As far as I can see, there is every reason to cover anarcho-capitalism on this page, whether or not it is acceptable to the leaders of the anarchist movement: WIkipedia is not the place to reproduce their POV, but rather were those of us who use the internet can discover the variety of ways people have chosen to present anarchism to the world. Leutha ( talk) 21:38, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 60 | Archive 61 | Archive 62 | Archive 63 | Archive 64 | Archive 65 | → | Archive 68 |
In the current picture visible in this section is not clear whether the people there are anarchist or not. Instead I propose adding in this section a picture of italian anarchist Camillo Berneri who died in Spain fighting as a volunteer againts the Franco uprising.-- Eduen ( talk) 01:33, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
I've asked this question before on the market anarchism article, and there's never a coherent explanation. Why are we linking and associating market anarchism with Rothbard and company? Why not Mutualism or market socialism, like Tucker's or Spooner's formulation, for example, which had been far more prominent in anarchist history? Is there a reason for conflating markets and capitalism? Finx ( talk) 04:33, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
to delete the sentence "Some individualist anarchists are also socialists or communists[21][22] while some anarcho-communists are also individualists.[23][24]" at the end of the second paragraph in the article. It seems out of place. An alternative would be to move it somewhere else? Any objections? Greybirch ( talk) 05:32, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
"As a subtle and anti-dogmatic philosophy, anarchism draws on many currents of thought and strategy. Anarchism does not offer a fixed body of doctrine from a single particular world view, instead fluxing and flowing as a philosophy.[15] There are many types and traditions of anarchism, not all of which are mutually exclusive.[16] Anarchist schools of thought can differ fundamentally, supporting anything from extreme individualism to complete collectivism.[2]"
As I see it from reading the next paragraph it is clear that there are internal debates and disagreements within anarchism no there is no need for this sentence "Anarchism does not offer a fixed body of doctrine from a single particular world view, instead fluxing and flowing as a philosophy.[15] There are many types and traditions of anarchism, not all of which are mutually exclusive.[16] Anarchist schools of thought can differ fundamentally, supporting anything from extreme individualism to complete collectivism.[2]"
So I propose merging this paragraph with the next one in this way:
"As a subtle and anti-dogmatic philosophy, anarchism draws on many currents of thought and strategy. Anarchism does not offer a fixed body of doctrine from a single particular world view, instead fluxing and flowing as a philosophy.[15]Strains of anarchism have often been divided into the categories of social and individualist anarchism or similar dual classifications.[17][18] Anarchism is often considered a radical left-wing ideology,[19][20] and much of anarchist economics and anarchist legal philosophy reflect anti-statist interpretations of communism, collectivism, syndicalism, or participatory economics."
This also since this talk of "extreme individualism and complete collectivism" might be better put just by pointing out that anarchism is an attempt to reconcile individual sovereignty with horizontal social relationships and others have put it more simply as reconciling liberty with equality.-- Eduen ( talk) 19:17, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
In the article "anarchocommunism" the issue of individualism vs. society was dealt with in the following form:
"Some forms of anarchist communism such as insurrectionary anarchism are strongly influenced by egoism and radical individualism, believing anarcho-communism is the best social system for the realization of individual freedom.[13][14][15][16] Most anarcho-communists view anarcho-communism as a way of reconciling the opposition between the individual and society.[17][18][19][20][21]"-- Eduen ( talk) 19:20, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
I also propose that we change this part where it says "reflect anti-statist interpretations of communism, collectivism, syndicalism, or participatory economics." for "reflect anti-authoritarian interpretations..." since it is clear that anrchism is not reducible to anti-statism as the first paragraph shows.-- Eduen ( talk) 19:38, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
I reverted the changes made by User:BakuninGoldmanKropotkin because they don't belong in the lede.
According to WP:LEDE, "Apart from trivial basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article." This was not the case here, where the only material about Israel or kibbutzim was added to the lede. — Malik Shabazz Talk/ Stalk 04:47, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
I agree with a modified version of this proposal by User:BakuninGoldmanKropotkin to be added after the sentence in the introduction which says that "anarchism as a social movement..."
"Aside from the aforementioned Spanish Revolution, other examples of anarchist-related revolutions include the Paris Commune of 1871, Strandzha Commune of 1903, Mexican Revolution of 1910, Free Territory from 1919 to 1921, Tambov Rebellion from 1920 to 1921, Kronstadt Rebellion of 1921, Third Russian Revolution from 1918 to 1922, Revolutionary Catalonia from 1936 to 1939, and the Zapatista Uprising starting from 1994 continuing into the present."
Personally i will take out Strandzha Commune, Mexican Revolution and Zapatista Uprising since self-described anarchist participation in these is not too strong and as far as the Zapatista Uprising, non-existent.-- Eduen ( talk) 04:53, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
This article seems to be written by men as it excludes many influential female intellectual anarchists such as Emma Goldman. Could someone please include Emma Goldman (and her picture) in this article (as she was far more influential than her Russian counterpart)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Combating Ignorance ( talk • contribs) 21:05, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Emma Goldman is mentioned here various times. A photo of Goldman is included in the libertarian socialism article.-- Eduen ( talk) 00:19, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Both terms (NON-HIERARCHICAL ORGANIZATIONS AND VOLUNTARY ASSOCIATIONS) have diferent references, as diferent entities. Not because are opposed, maybe yes or maybe not, just because are diferents concepts and with diferent sources. [1] Common sense. -- Sageo ( talk) 17:18, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Voluntary relationships on themselves are not forms of anarchy. Both employment in state offices and capitalist salaried work are voluntary relationships but no one has dared to call those things forms of anarchy. Anarchy means absence of hierarchies.-- Eduen ( talk) 00:28, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
No, not all forms of libertarianism are capitalist, despite the common American usage of the word. “ Minarchism” is a word you may want to look into. One way to classify the different forms of libertarianism is anarchism-versus-minarchism, which is a more pertinent fact to be pointed out in that section. EIN ( talk) 17:55, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
I have begun re-writing this article-- (which now appears to be locked in order to prevent edits??)-- to include the idea that anarchism is not merely the political philosophy which *opposes* the existence of the state, but also that 'anarchist' political philosophy may include the recognition of the absence of the state, or the illegitimacy of institutions (such as political organizations such as a State, or state, or states). Also, the inclusion of the idea that anarchism may be the opposition or recognition of both legitimate as well as illegitimate authority or government. -- here is the beginning of the new article.
Anarchism may be defined as a political philosophy which opposes or refuses government, authority, or other rule-making organizations, or as political political stemming from the recognition of the illegitimacy, or absence of government. In the case of the ladder, 'anarchyism' expresses no preference as to whether government is fundamentally harmful or beneficial to society, but rather is the socio-political philosophy resulting from such illegitmacy and/or absence. Anarchyism may also advocate opposition to illegimate hierarchies, rules, laws, or corrupt institutions and authority, in such cases anarchyism may be seen as anti-authoritarian. Anarchist philosophy may also include the opposition of all hiearchies and authority irrespective of its legitimacy, and opposition to all rules and rule-making organizations. Anarchists, may be a group defined as including the people working in the opposition of government or hierarchial instutitons, as well as the thinkers or philosophers who's reasoning concerns the existence or non-existence or legitimacy of governments, authority, or institutions. For example, if for some purpose one were to define a period of time years 1-25 as defined by the absence of government, the political thinkers of this period of time could be described as 'Anarchists'.
As the existence or legitimacy of government is a central concern of 'anarchists', many schools of political philosophy may be seen as relating to 'anarchist' reasoning, including: socialism, democracy, republicanism, communism, and fascism.
As 'anarchism' is a political philosophy centered on the existence or non-existence of government, it does not concern itself with economic philosophy and neither advocates a monetary or non-monetary system of valuation, though the abolition of government necessarily suggests a non-monetary system of valuation. Some anarchist thinking concerned with the legitimacy of government, may advocate systems of valuation that do not derive their authority from the institution of dubious credibility.
Some forms of 'anarchism', which refuse the authority of government institutions such as correctional or justice systems, central banks, traffic administration, reglatory agencies, law enforcement groups or agencies,
-Anaceus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.51.85.203 ( talk) 18:00, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
A lot to debate with here. I can have to remind you that you will have to support almost every sentence here with good sources. Otherwise you can also propose a particular change in a sentence that is present in the current version. This is a wikipedia "good article" and it will be nice if it will stay that way.-- Eduen ( talk) 20:11, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Is AK Press a reliable source? Also Eduen seems to be engaging in Gatekeeping. Schonchin ( talk) 20:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
Eduen, I've provided (albeit brief) explanations for my recent edits. What are your objections and what do you think would be better? I think the article currently has a very awkward structure. I'll be sure to not make any more edits (other than very small ones pertaining to grammar, etc). Thank you for being so passionate about this article. I look forward to working with you on this (since we're apparently the only two people who are interested in restructuring this page right now). Byelf2007 ( talk) 13 February 2012
On my recent edits I have to question again some things that Byelf2007 never responded to. Instead he just went and edited the article as he wanted.
I will talk about his version visible here which I reverted some things back to their previous state.
1. Lets consider this sentence Byelf2007 added in the introduction. The individualist wing of anarchism emphasises negative liberty, i.e. opposition to state or social control over the individual, while those in the social wing emphasise positive liberty to achieve one's potential and argue that humans have needs that society ought to fulfill, "recognizing equality of entitlement"
The language of "negative liberty" and "positive liberty" is of relevance within liberalism and it comes from there and is it used mainly there (also not too important for example in marxism). Within anarchism there is not an important use of those terms as it can be seen in main historical works on anarchism as written by anarchist historians such as George Woodcock, Max Nettlau and Daniel Guerin. It is also not present within the main classical theorists of anarchism such as Proudhon, Stirner, Bakunin, Kropotkin, Malatesta, Tucker, etc. If these concepts have been applied to anarchism, they nevertheless do not belong to the anarchist tradition and so they don´t deserve a mention in this introduction. But even if we were to aplly the concepts of "negative liberty" social anarchism is also obviously an anti-state position and so it could also be said to be a negative liberty position in a way since it want liberty FROM the centralized nation state. And so for example the catalan anarchists during the Spanish Civil War tried to end connection with the Spanish Republican State after they took over Barcelona and adjecent areas. The Ukranian anarchist did the same in respect to the crumbling Tsarist Russian State and also rejected the Bolchevik Soviet state. And so at most these concepts become problematic in a context for which they were not designed.
2. Byelf2007 Deleted from the introduction this very importance parragraph "Anarchism as a social movement has regularly endured fluctuations in popularity. The central tendency of anarchism as a mass social movement has been represented by anarcho-communism and anarcho-syndicalism, with individualist anarchism being primarily a literary phenomenon[25] which nevertheless did have an impact on the bigger currents[26] and individualists also participated in large anarchist organizations.[27][28] Most anarchists oppose all forms of aggression, supporting self-defense or non-violence (anarcho-pacifism),[29][30] while others have supported the use of some coercive measures, including violent revolution and propaganda of the deed, on the path to an anarchist society.[31]
I don´t want to guess why he did that. My point here is that this paragraph that User:Byelf2007 deleted shows anarchism has reached at some points mass movement status and even big anarchist militias and continues in some form or other to be an activist and radical direct action and organized movement. Anarchism cannot be reduced as a mere literary philosophical phenomenon as his proposed version of an introduction does.
3. As can be seen in this talk section of this article and in previous editions of this article (and not just because of my opposition), user Byelf2007 never got a consensus for his proposal for an "Overview" section. Nevertheless he continues to insist on this.
4. On the inclusion of specific sections for the classical schools of thought of anarcho-communism, collectivist anarchism and anarcho-syndicalism, he seemed to agree with me and so I only made small changes to those parts.
A better first sentence would be "Anarchism advocates stateless societies based on non-hierarchical free associations." I made this edit but it was reverted. The current first three sentences weasel around a couple of different definitions of the word leaving the article without a topic. It's ok to argue about defining a word but without defining a topic in the first sentence you don't have an article. Bhny ( talk) 23:43, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Since i have been too busy living i didn´t have the time to come around here but like i said in my reversion of your edit we can´t begin the definition of anarchism this way since etymologically anarchism means to negate rule. Non-hierarchical relations are an implication of this first sense and so it will have to go second. As it stands now the article begins in a very strange form and i have never seen a definition of anarchism beginning in the form you propose. I have to ask you to bring outside support for your proposal. But also in your proposal you are not even saying what anarchism is. The previous versions started with the obvious statement establishing anarchism is a political philosophy. I think your proposal is highly defective because of these things and i also hope we can avoid an edit war.-- Eduen ( talk) 02:24, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
User Knight of BAAWA says that "t *HAS BEEN* discussed on the talk page MANY MANY TIMES. The decision reached years ago was to not kick ideas out of the tree." We can very well ask him to show us where that "consensus" was reached.
Since we live in the now and not in the yesterday we can also decide to not include the Bizzarely titled radical neoliberal (and as such non anarchist) philosophy which a US economist decided to call it "anarcho-capitalism". I also remind everyone interested that there also exists another "innovative" union of disparate political positions called " national anarchism" which tries to mix anarchism with fascism. "national anarchism" has been left out of this article and as such we can also decide to leave out "anarchocapitalism". The article on anarchism on the Encyclopedia Brittanica does not mention at all "anarcho" capitalism for example just as the wikipedia article on christianity does not mention small highly controversial sects like Pelagianism, Donatism, Marcionism, Montanism or something more recent such as Christian Science. But while the Christianity article does not metion Donatism at all, wikipedia nevertheless keeps the donatism article. As such we can also decide something similar with "anarcho" capitalism. In this case to not mention it in this article will be clearly justified due to the exclusion of "anarcho" capitalism from most important sources on anarchism in the english language. Nevertheless that does not mean asking for the deletion of the " anarcho-capitalism" article from wikipedia and a good reason for that is that "anarcho-capitalism" as a political position is clearly more logical as a form of, and is clearly both historically and philosophically related with, economic liberalism. Hopefully this dialogue can help us avoid the edit war which has been going on in this article.-- Eduen ( talk) 15:28, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
The Anarchist Task Force was created some years ago to promote interanarchist cooperation in editing wikpedia. In recent years, the task force has come into disuse, but it's basic objective remains important, and I would encourage each of the editors involved in this discussion to recall its early principals. Even if a particular aspect of anarchist philosophy is seen as not being part of anarchism by an individual, or an entire sector of anarchists, the disputed branch must remain valuable in reference to anarchism by it's impact. For this reason, anarcho-capitalism remains an important part of this article if only for it's relationship to contemporary anarchist thought and history. The very nature of this controversy is proof that each of you are aware of this. I encourage the inclusion of information and appropriate citation for that point. The article should reflect at least that, if nothing else. -- Cast ( talk) 03:31, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
Anyone can check my interventions in anarchist related articles in wikipedia and that person will see that i have been editing those articles in a continous form since more than 3 years ago. In all of that time the Anarchist Task Force has been completely a non acting entity as far as my experience. Discussions occur in the talk sections of the specific article and as far as my option i prefer them to occur there for transparency and for that reason i hardly use even my wikipedia User page at all. For this reason i am very surprised to hear an argument here for abiding to an agreement reached by something that died out a long time ago created by users who seems don´t even participate in editing wikipedia anymore and also i am not suprised at all that user TFD didn´t even know that such thing existed. Even the idea of an "anarchist task force" within an enciclopedia seems strange to me since here we are not writing panphlets or ideological presentations of "our" positions between "Rogues?" 'but something that tries to be as objective as possible as as such whether one is an anarchist or not is something that doesn´t matter. If i have the sources i can well go edit the Fascism or the nazism articles and have those articles keep the changes i made even though i personally despise those things and even though a nazi or fascist editor or the fascist or nazi "task force" might object to them.-- Eduen ( talk) 10:42, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
"And on that note, I would just shift to your point on the inclusion of "fringe" perspective-- which feels forced, since all of anarchism is fringe. (We're not a major force in the world, after all.)"
"The "national anarchist" current you refer to is less than a decade old, has a very minor publication history, and no history of participation in historical events or impact on political thinking, as anarcho-capitalism does. Those are not adequate comparisons."
Since I have not received any response on this then we might need to start dealing with " anarcho-capitalism" and " national anarchism" equally within this article.-- Eduen ( talk) 20:08, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
I am not sure whether the admonition to read the whole article was ironic, but it would seem that Eduen has not fully read the article on proudhonian mutualism in which some editors have been kind enough to include a section on criticisms. Not everyone accepted Proudhon's position. Also the request for Knight of BAAWA to debate his definition of capitalism on this page is clearly inappropriate. As far as I can see, there is every reason to cover anarcho-capitalism on this page, whether or not it is acceptable to the leaders of the anarchist movement: WIkipedia is not the place to reproduce their POV, but rather were those of us who use the internet can discover the variety of ways people have chosen to present anarchism to the world. Leutha ( talk) 21:38, 20 August 2013 (UTC)