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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
This page is one of the oldest and most hacked-up pages on Wikipedia. It's gone through several major revisions and several rounds of repeated arguments, including this same stupid argument about anarcho-capitalism and left-anarchism, several times. It's current form is due to the efforts, mostly, of Sam Francis, who is a very committed left anarchist who put a lot of hard work into updating many of the articles on anarchist theory and history on Wikipedia.
Therefore, please take a moment to pause and consider that things might have reached their current status for a certain reason, especially if you've been on Wikipedia for a period of only weeks or months (or days?). While it may insult your ideological purity, I assure you that that is not a consideration that matters to Wikipedia. What matters is presenting a cogent picture of what 'anarchism' is in as neutral a manner as possible.
If you are new to Wikipedia, I strongly suggest you back off from articles you feel passionately about and get involved in other areas that you can deal with unheatedly first. So long as you are more committed to anarchism than you are to Wikipedia, you won't be able to do justice to this article.
It's not uncommon for a Wikipedia article to be overrun by a group of people with an ideology (e.g. freepers, or as in this case their lefty counterparts from Infoshop.org) who are eager to change the article to conform to what they want. However, as anarchists I hope you will appreciate a few things:
Here's hoping you'll cool down and take things more slowly. This article doesn't have to change NOW, this VERY INSTANT. If you're interested in improving Wikipedia, take it easy. Take it slowly. Learn to love it, first. I promise if you do, you'll become a much better editor and you'll do much more for the quality of this article. Graft 19:51, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Snowspinner: Why do you continue to take the side of Sam when he is (a) clearly biased, and (b) miserably ignorant and ill-informed about anarchism?
"From what I read of anarcho-capitalism, I am one. I reserve the right to defend myself, my values, and my property and will not hesitate to utlize every means necessary to do so, regardless of the desires or presence of a state. Also the definition of Libertarian Socialist (an oxymoron whose mention has lead to hearty amusement amongst many I have discussed it with) is so convoluted and bizarre as to possibly include myself as well, I wouldn't know, I don't understand it any better than that ass Chomsky who advocates it." (Sam Spade 17:48, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC))
Also, do really think I posted this on my user page?:
"HI!
I think Libertarian Socialism is the same thing as Anarchism, and change pages accordingly!"
Again, I remind you to read edit histories before jumping to conclusions. My page was vandalized. I didn't even know about the post until I saw your comment. Please note that that post was made by an anonymous user, probably Sam Spade, in an attempt to discredit me. Don't let yourself be duped.
Also, I'm not "discouraging attempts to expand and work on this page". As far as I'm concerned the truce is off, since it didn't seem to help bring about any sort of consensus. I would like to see people edit and improve this page. And I also would like to work on the article and help in the effort to achieve a sense of balance and NPOV, but I can't do anything as long as certain folks insist on reverting any and all attempts to tone down their pro-anarcho-capitalism bias on this page. Sincerely, Spleeman 22:38, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
deletionism is anti wiki. This is a content related link. Put it on VfD or fix it if you think its bad. Censorship isn't very anarchist (in case anybody cares) either. Sam [ Spade] 23:25, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Let me know what you think about the new placement. Sam [ Spade] 22:06, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This sentence is still an unjustified narrowing of the defintion of "anarchy". It is also structurally incorrect, as it compares "anarchy" (not "anarchism") to three "-isms", statism, totalitarianism, and fascism. All three of these are theories of government, while "anarchy" refers to a social condition. Even if the sentence were not grammatically and analytically flawed, it would still imply that anarchism is more or less a reaction against the three "-isms" mentioned, which, again, is misleading to say the least. What we imply is often just as important as what we say explicitly, and this is perhaps even more true on wikipedia. For example, it could be argued that this sentence reinforces the societal POV that anarchism is defined primarily by what it opposes. Additionally, it implies that the three "-isms" mentioned are uniquely representative of what anarchism opposes, when in reality, many anarchists are just as opposed to bourgeois "democracy" as they are to fascism, for example. The original sentence was intended simply to give the anarchist defintion of the word "anarchy". Adding an faulty comparison to three specific ideologies that anarchism opposes is purposeless, especially when the things anarchism is "revolting against" can easily be discussed elsewhere in the article. -- Spleeman 19:49, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Spleeman wrote: "First off, I disagree that "the influence of both varieties of anarchism is close to zero." Small, yes, but "close to zero"? No. Then there's your assertion that "the global influence of Mormonism is small". Where's your documentation for that? "What is your documentation for the claim that left-anarchism is presently more substantial than A-C?" In the U.S.: Food Not Bombs; IWW (growing); the presence of black blocs in almost all major street demonstrations; the anti-globalization movement; anarchist federations; intentional communities and anarchist communes; infoshops; zines; publishing houses; yes, even websites; left-anarchism's influence on the Green movement, or within the punk subculture, or on groups such as the ELF; and more, of course. Elsewhere: Zapatistas; Landless Workers' Movement (Brazil), the anti-poll tax campaign in England in the 1980s (initiated by anarchists); left-anarchist organizations throughout Europe; militant action in places such as Greece; and I know I'm missing lots of stuff. This is not to mention historically how important left-anarchism has been. Must I mention the Spanish Revolution? By contrast, there is virtually no anarcho-capitalist activity outside the internet that I know of." (Spleeman, June 25)
Spleeman wrote (starts by quoting me):""'Yeah, right, those anarcho-primitivists are always making the nightly news." (Nat Krause 05:23, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)). Wait, and anarcho-capitalists are?"
More Spleeman: "Actually, green anarchists and anarcho-primitivists did receive a great deal of mainstream media attention after the Seattle protests in 1999." (Spleeman, June 26)
More Spleeman: "And then of course, there was the fucking Unabomber. Did you miss that?"
Kev wrote: "Nat was more than a tad unlucky with his choice of words. I mean honestly, could there be a more primitivist oriented organization than the E.L.F. ( http://www.earthliberationfront.com/main.shtml)? Talk about making the nightly news all the time, they do." (Kevehs, June 26)
More Spleeman: "Also, the local newspaper in Eugene, Oregon did a "bests" list that named "anarchists" (anarcho-primitivists, that is) as the "best hope for Eugene"."
Some ignorant individuals have been claiming that there is no evidence that this form of anarchism exists and are now insisting that this page be deleted. This is almost as ridiculous as suggesting that anarcho-capitalism is in an extreme minority compared to other forms of anarchism, where is the evidence?!? I don't know of any census having been taken, so how could they possibly know this? Anyway, I supplied the evidence they asked for, but I'm afraid it may not be enough. Who knows, they might start resorting to that old "no true scotsman" fallacy!
I felt so horribly bad that I had to delete the sentence on national anarchism that someone had put on this page because they included an external link in the text, so I went to all the trouble to create a page detailing the legitimate arguments of anarcho-fascists everywhere and this is the kind of thanks I get. Please, anarcho-capitalist sympathizers, you must know how this feels to be treated like a minority movement when clearly we are not. I mean, I'm not even an anarcho-fascist myself, I'm just sympathetic to their movement. Come to my aid and vote to keep this page immediately! And I'm specifically refering to Nat Krause, Sam Spade, and VV here, I often see you guys cluster about to help each other in other cases, so this calls for more right-wing bridage action. Kev 12:19, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Spleeman wrote (quoting me): "Firstly, you 'don't see how ["anarchists without adjectives"] can [be] sensibly described as belonging to one persuasion more than to another' apparently because you know nothing about anarchism." Good explanation. Wait, I'm being sarcastic. I still maintain my point, which is that they can call themselves anything they want, but if they are "leftist" or "post-left" or "anti-capitalist" then those are all adjectives, and thus, in my opinion, for them to describe themselves as "without adjectives" is misleading. If, on the other hand, they are not any of those things, then what possible conflict can there be with anarcho-capitalists? Note that this is deductive logic, not requiring any specific knowledge of the movement. I will point out, though, that, in an effort to learn more about "anarchism without adjectives" I found this article, on what appears to be a left-leaning website, about Voltairine de Cleyre, which says that she praised the U.S. "founding fathers" as precursors to her sort of anarchism. I don't suppose you will tell me, then, that Washington and Jefferson were part of the same movement with you and Kevehs and Bakunin?
As for the rest of Spleeman's comments about the individualists, I'll respond further to this sort of stuff on Talk:Anarcho-capitalism when I get a chance. - Nat Kraus e 18:01, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
(an old quote from me): "This is why this is a semantic argument. Who gets to do define 'anarchism'? Do we go with the dictionary, or do we define it as used by the small number of people who self-described with the term between 1840 and 1950?" (Nat Krause 05:23, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)).
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
This page is one of the oldest and most hacked-up pages on Wikipedia. It's gone through several major revisions and several rounds of repeated arguments, including this same stupid argument about anarcho-capitalism and left-anarchism, several times. It's current form is due to the efforts, mostly, of Sam Francis, who is a very committed left anarchist who put a lot of hard work into updating many of the articles on anarchist theory and history on Wikipedia.
Therefore, please take a moment to pause and consider that things might have reached their current status for a certain reason, especially if you've been on Wikipedia for a period of only weeks or months (or days?). While it may insult your ideological purity, I assure you that that is not a consideration that matters to Wikipedia. What matters is presenting a cogent picture of what 'anarchism' is in as neutral a manner as possible.
If you are new to Wikipedia, I strongly suggest you back off from articles you feel passionately about and get involved in other areas that you can deal with unheatedly first. So long as you are more committed to anarchism than you are to Wikipedia, you won't be able to do justice to this article.
It's not uncommon for a Wikipedia article to be overrun by a group of people with an ideology (e.g. freepers, or as in this case their lefty counterparts from Infoshop.org) who are eager to change the article to conform to what they want. However, as anarchists I hope you will appreciate a few things:
Here's hoping you'll cool down and take things more slowly. This article doesn't have to change NOW, this VERY INSTANT. If you're interested in improving Wikipedia, take it easy. Take it slowly. Learn to love it, first. I promise if you do, you'll become a much better editor and you'll do much more for the quality of this article. Graft 19:51, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Snowspinner: Why do you continue to take the side of Sam when he is (a) clearly biased, and (b) miserably ignorant and ill-informed about anarchism?
"From what I read of anarcho-capitalism, I am one. I reserve the right to defend myself, my values, and my property and will not hesitate to utlize every means necessary to do so, regardless of the desires or presence of a state. Also the definition of Libertarian Socialist (an oxymoron whose mention has lead to hearty amusement amongst many I have discussed it with) is so convoluted and bizarre as to possibly include myself as well, I wouldn't know, I don't understand it any better than that ass Chomsky who advocates it." (Sam Spade 17:48, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC))
Also, do really think I posted this on my user page?:
"HI!
I think Libertarian Socialism is the same thing as Anarchism, and change pages accordingly!"
Again, I remind you to read edit histories before jumping to conclusions. My page was vandalized. I didn't even know about the post until I saw your comment. Please note that that post was made by an anonymous user, probably Sam Spade, in an attempt to discredit me. Don't let yourself be duped.
Also, I'm not "discouraging attempts to expand and work on this page". As far as I'm concerned the truce is off, since it didn't seem to help bring about any sort of consensus. I would like to see people edit and improve this page. And I also would like to work on the article and help in the effort to achieve a sense of balance and NPOV, but I can't do anything as long as certain folks insist on reverting any and all attempts to tone down their pro-anarcho-capitalism bias on this page. Sincerely, Spleeman 22:38, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
deletionism is anti wiki. This is a content related link. Put it on VfD or fix it if you think its bad. Censorship isn't very anarchist (in case anybody cares) either. Sam [ Spade] 23:25, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Let me know what you think about the new placement. Sam [ Spade] 22:06, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This sentence is still an unjustified narrowing of the defintion of "anarchy". It is also structurally incorrect, as it compares "anarchy" (not "anarchism") to three "-isms", statism, totalitarianism, and fascism. All three of these are theories of government, while "anarchy" refers to a social condition. Even if the sentence were not grammatically and analytically flawed, it would still imply that anarchism is more or less a reaction against the three "-isms" mentioned, which, again, is misleading to say the least. What we imply is often just as important as what we say explicitly, and this is perhaps even more true on wikipedia. For example, it could be argued that this sentence reinforces the societal POV that anarchism is defined primarily by what it opposes. Additionally, it implies that the three "-isms" mentioned are uniquely representative of what anarchism opposes, when in reality, many anarchists are just as opposed to bourgeois "democracy" as they are to fascism, for example. The original sentence was intended simply to give the anarchist defintion of the word "anarchy". Adding an faulty comparison to three specific ideologies that anarchism opposes is purposeless, especially when the things anarchism is "revolting against" can easily be discussed elsewhere in the article. -- Spleeman 19:49, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Spleeman wrote: "First off, I disagree that "the influence of both varieties of anarchism is close to zero." Small, yes, but "close to zero"? No. Then there's your assertion that "the global influence of Mormonism is small". Where's your documentation for that? "What is your documentation for the claim that left-anarchism is presently more substantial than A-C?" In the U.S.: Food Not Bombs; IWW (growing); the presence of black blocs in almost all major street demonstrations; the anti-globalization movement; anarchist federations; intentional communities and anarchist communes; infoshops; zines; publishing houses; yes, even websites; left-anarchism's influence on the Green movement, or within the punk subculture, or on groups such as the ELF; and more, of course. Elsewhere: Zapatistas; Landless Workers' Movement (Brazil), the anti-poll tax campaign in England in the 1980s (initiated by anarchists); left-anarchist organizations throughout Europe; militant action in places such as Greece; and I know I'm missing lots of stuff. This is not to mention historically how important left-anarchism has been. Must I mention the Spanish Revolution? By contrast, there is virtually no anarcho-capitalist activity outside the internet that I know of." (Spleeman, June 25)
Spleeman wrote (starts by quoting me):""'Yeah, right, those anarcho-primitivists are always making the nightly news." (Nat Krause 05:23, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)). Wait, and anarcho-capitalists are?"
More Spleeman: "Actually, green anarchists and anarcho-primitivists did receive a great deal of mainstream media attention after the Seattle protests in 1999." (Spleeman, June 26)
More Spleeman: "And then of course, there was the fucking Unabomber. Did you miss that?"
Kev wrote: "Nat was more than a tad unlucky with his choice of words. I mean honestly, could there be a more primitivist oriented organization than the E.L.F. ( http://www.earthliberationfront.com/main.shtml)? Talk about making the nightly news all the time, they do." (Kevehs, June 26)
More Spleeman: "Also, the local newspaper in Eugene, Oregon did a "bests" list that named "anarchists" (anarcho-primitivists, that is) as the "best hope for Eugene"."
Some ignorant individuals have been claiming that there is no evidence that this form of anarchism exists and are now insisting that this page be deleted. This is almost as ridiculous as suggesting that anarcho-capitalism is in an extreme minority compared to other forms of anarchism, where is the evidence?!? I don't know of any census having been taken, so how could they possibly know this? Anyway, I supplied the evidence they asked for, but I'm afraid it may not be enough. Who knows, they might start resorting to that old "no true scotsman" fallacy!
I felt so horribly bad that I had to delete the sentence on national anarchism that someone had put on this page because they included an external link in the text, so I went to all the trouble to create a page detailing the legitimate arguments of anarcho-fascists everywhere and this is the kind of thanks I get. Please, anarcho-capitalist sympathizers, you must know how this feels to be treated like a minority movement when clearly we are not. I mean, I'm not even an anarcho-fascist myself, I'm just sympathetic to their movement. Come to my aid and vote to keep this page immediately! And I'm specifically refering to Nat Krause, Sam Spade, and VV here, I often see you guys cluster about to help each other in other cases, so this calls for more right-wing bridage action. Kev 12:19, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Spleeman wrote (quoting me): "Firstly, you 'don't see how ["anarchists without adjectives"] can [be] sensibly described as belonging to one persuasion more than to another' apparently because you know nothing about anarchism." Good explanation. Wait, I'm being sarcastic. I still maintain my point, which is that they can call themselves anything they want, but if they are "leftist" or "post-left" or "anti-capitalist" then those are all adjectives, and thus, in my opinion, for them to describe themselves as "without adjectives" is misleading. If, on the other hand, they are not any of those things, then what possible conflict can there be with anarcho-capitalists? Note that this is deductive logic, not requiring any specific knowledge of the movement. I will point out, though, that, in an effort to learn more about "anarchism without adjectives" I found this article, on what appears to be a left-leaning website, about Voltairine de Cleyre, which says that she praised the U.S. "founding fathers" as precursors to her sort of anarchism. I don't suppose you will tell me, then, that Washington and Jefferson were part of the same movement with you and Kevehs and Bakunin?
As for the rest of Spleeman's comments about the individualists, I'll respond further to this sort of stuff on Talk:Anarcho-capitalism when I get a chance. - Nat Kraus e 18:01, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
(an old quote from me): "This is why this is a semantic argument. Who gets to do define 'anarchism'? Do we go with the dictionary, or do we define it as used by the small number of people who self-described with the term between 1840 and 1950?" (Nat Krause 05:23, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)).