I'm adding this section because the massive debate below is a little intimidating to wade through, espiecally if someone just wants to let people know about simple & uncontroversial change.
I have edited the article today (08 January 2003) to promote a more neutral point of view. The article seemed to be biased, just slightly, to an anti-amway perspective; I have deletedo - that is a name exclusive to critics of Amway, and should be mentioned as such. Someone doing that search will not find answers from Amway or pro-Amway folks as they don't use that term.
There are, aligned with Quixtar, groups like ina.net that fit this description and do the training and motivation of Quixtar distributors, who distribute Amway and other products through a common distribution arm.
It's a fundamental issue with direct multi-level marketing organizations that they can't control the behavior of frontline distributors, probably no more than Arafat can control the timing of suicide bombers. Same top-down versus bottom-up behavior influence debate... the Amway Corp does try to make certain things standard, e.g. no "door to door selling", and they succeed in general, but they have only a few blunt instruments with which to do so.
This article needs to be updated, and the "AMOs" need to be documented - I don't doubt that somewhere somehow someone used this name for them, but they serve a legitimate role in multi-level marketing, although they may overstep it and become bad religions...
Who has alleged this when and where?
How could they appeal the conviction when they had pleaded guilty in the first place? Are you saying that they first paid the fine, then successfully appealed the fine and got the money back? How much did they pay in the end? AxelBoldt 03:42 Jan 15, 2003 (UTC)
____ I see somebody has added something about Emma Page jewellery being available through Amway in Australia, as well as New Zealand. Please provide a source for this. I am well aware of its availability in NZ; my wife and I are both Amway distributors and have sold Emma Page jewellery under Amway auspices. In Australia, however, my understanding is that Emma Page has its own distribution network; only in New Zealand does it contract Amway. That was the last I heard (last year) - that Australian Amway distributors were very envious of their New Zealand counterparts because there is a substantial profit in Emma Page. Now, for all I know, this MAY have changed. If it has, could you name your source? I will make some inquiries myself; in the meantime, I will let your edit stand. Davidcannon 11:09, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
This material is from the article List of purported cults, which we are paring down to a pure list. Editors here can best evaluate its statements and decide how to integrate it into this article. Thanks, - Willmcw 21:09, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
I came to this site looking for unbiased information so that I could make a fair evaluation for myself. I have previously been highly skeptical of all multi-level marketing systems and remain so, however, I was afraid I had not been open minded about the idea and wanted more information. I did not find it. This article contains numerous spelling and/or grammatical errors and shows poor proofreading. "IBO" is never written out on this page, I think it's probably "Independent Business Organizatons" or something like that, but abbreviations should be explained on this page. The only pro-Amway linnk is their corporate website, there must be others. The use of the word "kingpin" and the phrase "train wreck" are very far from the Wikipedia call for unbiased language and the paragraph that cites Independent Media TV as well as one that follows do not allow for errors in reporting or POV in those reports but recite the reports as facts themselves. This article needs a lot of work. Unfortunately, I came here looking for information I didn't already have and still don't. Someone else will have to rewrite this entry and I will have to look elsewhere for my information. -- DH 2005.04.07
Your point is well taken. It seems that Amway/Quixtar requires its own page, with links to articles about the various AMOs which have, unfortunately, given the Amway Corporation a bad name. OTOH, Amway--and Richard DeVos in particular--have acknowledged the problem with AMOs, but have not taken any steps to resolve the problem. It is my opinion, from personal experience and research, that the Amway Corporation's marketing plan is extremely fair: Unlike pyramid schemes, their plan requires retail sales, and does not reward individuals for simply finding another hard-working individual whose efforts they can profit from, simply from having sponsored him or her. In particular, it has been shown that the Amway/Quixtar income represents only a fraction of the total income of the wealthiest distributors. Most of the income results from the markup on books, tapes, seminar tickets, and other merchandise sold to unsuspecting distributors, who believe--and in some cases, are told--that these "tools" are sold at cost plus a small margin to cover shipping and other associated expenses. The evidence for this assertion is readily available as free and public information in the dozens of lawsuits filed by distributors who do not like the unfair terms of the "tool business." Brad Eleven
How greatly you are misled about Amway. Amway has been linked to terrorist organisations. It has importeed hard drugs into third world countries. It has smuggled illegal military arms into countries where civil wars have taken place. It has riddiculed many people. Amway is involved with illegal narcotics across the globe. It has also been involved with civil was and wars where many innocent American soldiers have died and many soldiers MIA such as in Vietnam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.38.64.184 ( talk) 07:52, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I've added some information surrounding Amway's cultic characteristics and complications with the legal system, as well as my own observations regarding the behavioural conformity of AMOs with Hassan and Jay Lifton's models of mind control, and mention of G Robert Blakey's expert report from Amway v Proctor & Gamble. However, I've tried to keep this information limited to what I hope are demonstrable facts rather than value judgements/interpretations, and have also largely confined my additions to the "Criticisms" section. Although my opinion of Amway most certainly is not either neutral or positive, it is my hope that because my additions have been contained in Criticisms, and because I have made an attempt to keep my additions factual, a reasonably neutral tone can be maintained, while at the same time noting Amway's less ethically desirable characteristics. I have also removed the references to the terms "train wreck" and "kingpins" in an attempt to create a more neutral tone. - Petrus 06/05/2005
Someone has removed my reference to the Blakey report, which I don't believe is really appropriate. That report includes important information about the structure of Amway...I think it's important that someone thinking of becoming involved with Amway should know if they are potentially becoming involved with a quasi-criminal organisation. - Petrus 08/05/2005
The article needs some work to be brought current; but I'm not sure the best way to go about it. After the 1999 reorganization, a lot of elements were relabeled. The large corporation formerly known as Amway is now called Alticor; the North American division is called Quixtar; the products manufacturing division is now called Access Business Group; and the segment of the company that does business outside North America is now called Amway.
In addition, the word "distributor" is no longer used within the organization; the function has been relabeled "Independent Business Owner" (IBO). There are other examples like this.
The article should also mention the company line given to explain the reorganization (that the Quixtar online division accounted for 95+% of their business within it's first year of operation, so they relegated the Amway name to international business) and the counterpoint that in the States, "Amway" had colloquially become synonymous with "scam" and the company was probably trying to do whatever it took to lose that image.
Because a lot of people don't know about the 1999 reorganization (and because it's kind of confusing) the relabeling is going to have to be explained carefully. Also, a lot of people are unfamiliar with the term "IBO" but are much more familiar with the deprecated "distributor."
Suggestions? Joshf 9 July 2005 12:48 (UTC)
Personally, I wouldn't recommend including the relabelling in a more extensive way than simply offering a glossary of terms. The primary motivation behind the name changes/re-organisation was to attempt to shed the company's entrenched global image of at worst a commercial cult, and at best a quasi-legal organisation with a fundamental structure and function very similar to the traditional crime syndicate, which was ultimately only allowed to do business in the US in particular due to a technicality. Offer a translation table, perhaps, but simply switching to use of the new names could lead to exactly the kind of confusion which those who engineered the name changes were hoping for.
[I've removed the POV check template from the discussion page. See Wikipedia:POV_check for the correct use of this template. Interpolated comment by Joshf 15:32, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Too focused on Dexter Yager's organization which is totally unreflective of the business in other parts of the world especially the fastest growing and already the biggest part of the Amway business, the Asia and Asia Pacific region. Misses completely the success of Foo Howe Kean, a legendary figure as a Crown Ambassador in 3 different countries, and a more identifieable figurehead in the huge Asian region.
Very long sections on critism and controversy, and yet for such a huge business the article is extremely short on business success details. Completely glosses over the fact that it has made many millionaires all over the world. Does not mentione the core products such as the Nutrilite range, which has a long history and contribution in the field of nutrition, the founder being Carl Rhemborg, who created the first multivitamin and mineral supplement over 70 years ago. Also misses the point that Euromonitor has named Artistry as the top 5 leading prestige cosmetic brand in the world.
Very biased article.
-Johan
I'm unsure as to why the above comment was signed with my username, when I have no recollection of writing it. Perhaps the original author made a mistake, or perhaps they were seeking to deliberately impersonate me. Given the degree of moral ambiguity which has at times been observed in Amway's supporters, I can only speculate as to what this individual's motives may have been.
Also in response to the above - it is well known that senior Amway distributors dislike any information about the business' less positive elements becoming public knowledge at all. For all the people who may have become wealthy via Amway, the business remains at least a partially criminal organisation, and while noting its successes, any genuinely objective reference about it must not hesitate in classifying it as such. Organisations such as Amway and the Church of Scientology have been made painfully aware of the ability of the Internet to subject them to a level of a forced accountability which they never experienced in the purely offline world, and they are being made to realise that despite whatever efforts they may make to the contrary, the truth about who and what they really are will become known. Cults can still run, but online they can no longer hide.
Petrus4
02:55, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I have extensive experience with two distinct Amway AMOs. For this article to ignore them is like an article on the world history ignoring the impact of technology. Simply put, it is impossible to build a large multi-level/network marketing business such as Amway or Quixtar without the support of a motivational organization such as an AMO. Consider what owning a franchise would be like without constistent marketing support. Consider also that franchisers ensure that they'll make money from the deal--and that while their motives may seem justified, their methods are not always ethical.
I can see how people with AMO knowledge and an inclination to expose them might contribute material that seems biased. By the same token, I know personally how people currently involved with an AMO become very defensive. I personally argued with newcomers who immediately saw that the tools' prices suggested profit-taking in their sales--before I had any inkling that anyone was profiting from the sales of books, tapes, or seminar tickets.
There is a distinct difference between people who have been unsuccessful with an Amway/AMO and people who have enjoyed success in the same situation. In the former case, the tendency is to blame the organization--and to be perceived that way. There are several highly successful Amway IBOs who have quit and/or sued their respective AMOs over unfair business practices. Conversely, very few successful Amway IBOs have sued Amway.
As for the claim that Amway has produced more millionaires than any other company in the world, I would like to see some documentation. I seriously doubt that many millionaires have been created by Amway alone. Even if some Amway IBOs have taken their Amway income and invested it or diversified into other high-income businesses (e.g., real estate development, automobile dealerships), the Amway corporation just doesn't pay enough for anyone to even gross $1M in one year's time. I'd like to know more about the definition of "millionaire". Is it someone who has $1M or more in assets? Someone who has earned $1M or more in one year?
In 1990, I attained the level of Pearl Direct Distributor, with a very profitable organization. That is, I had twenty personally sponsored distributors, and nine were actively building their organizations. Two had gone direct, i.e., attained the level of Direct Distributor, and the other seven were Silver Producers (their organizations included at least one Direct, but they themselves hadn't qualified for Direct). My Amway checks included four distinct bonuses for speed of growth, overall volume, profit sharing, and for the number of direct distributors in my organization. My gross income from the Amway corporation--above bonuses plus PV bonuses--peaked at $3300/month. While the Pearl level is certainly not the highest level--and recognizing that the bonus structure has obviously changed over the past 15 years--let us consider my AMO income at that level. In five months after I made Pearl, I got AMO checks for $5400, $6100, $7900, $8700, and $9900. Let us be very clear: The AMO checks represented profit sharing from the AMO's sales of books, tapes, and seminar tickets, plus speaking fees I was paid for appearing at regional rallies. As I approached the Emerald level, several of my upline Diamonds counseled me to quit my job. I didn't want to quit, and I was very heavily pressured to do so. Among other things, I was offered a bigger cut of the profits from the tool volume in my organization. Aside from the staggering increase in tools income in the jump from Pearl to Emerald, I was taken aback at just how much money was at stake--and how much more the Diamonds and other high pin levels were making. It was obvious that the AMO income represented far more than their Amway income. After seeing a crossline Pearl get cut out of the AMO pie because of his religion (possibly particular to the AMO), I bailed out. I didn't want to quit my job because I enjoyed it, and I didn't want to get stuck doing what my AMO "upline" said to do because I needed the money.
I don't think it's important to "expose" the AMOs. I realize that some people are ashamed of Dexter Yager, and that some have deep respect for what he has accomplished. I think it's vital for an encyclopedia page to fully disclose all known information on any topic.
I don't think that this [discussion page] is the forum to relate AMO experiences. I personally had a bad experience that may or may not be representative of AMO participants, and so I decided to quit. I sold my Amway business. Take note that my AMO business was not considered saleable--the AMO decided who got my piece of the profits. Consider this fact the next time you hear (or say) that an Amway business and its attendant residual bonuses are willable and fully transferable.
I don't know what the best way to represent the AMOs is, but I am certain that they must be referenced. Perhaps a link to another page? For sure the claim that Amway has created the most millionaires should be either substantiated or removed. The current page is pretty representative of the Amway Corporation. Leaving out the AMOs doesn't work, although I support a neutral/positive page on the Amway Corporation. My experience with Amway is excellent: the company has unusually high integrity, its products are superior, if overpriced, and it has worked very hard to create a multilevel/network marketing system that truly rewards hard work, and only hard work. The same just can't be said of the AMOs.
Regarding the argument that Dexter Yager is an American and that IBOs in other countries have enjoyed great success: In any industry, the chief innovators are at least acknowledged. Dexter was a pioneer in that he figured out how to motivate people, to really help them to succeed--and he built in compensation for his efforts. That's revolutionary, and in theory, it's fair. Certainly the other super-IBOs worldwide owe something to Dexter. In many cases, he has provided his expertise, personally and via his closest associates, to IBOs the world over. You can be sure that he is compensated for this, whether by selling materials to the IBOs, providing production support, or through some other long-term arrangement. There is still nothing wrong with this.
The problem is simply that the AMOs are for the most part concealed. They are analogous to the lobbying industry in our government: they provide substantial leverage to the corporation and to the IBOs, but they are very secretive about their practices. Like the government's apparent unwillingness to reform the lobbying industry, Amway does a lot of talking about the problems with AMOs, but it refuses to take action. It is not at all obvious that most of the money earned by successful Amway IBOs comes from AMOs. Nor is it obvious that the AMOs do not use the same reward system as the Amway corporation. The AMOs have dominated the Amway corporation's distributor affairs organizations in the same way that their IBOs dominate Amway's volume.
I don't think it's important to make the AMOs wrong. Although they have had major problems with individual members (what wealthy organization doesn't?), their activities are not illegal, with the possible exception of some minor disclosures. Officially speaking, they are silent about the amount of money that they take in and pay out. Some individuals do misrepresent this aspect of AMOs, whether intentionally or naively.
Brad Eleven 17:12, 12 September 2005 (GMT)
I don't think being "flagged for Google bombimg" can be considered a legal ruling. Stick this under Criticisms, if anywhere. -- Jquarry 21:04, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I added the citation for the 1979 FTC case that is frequently mentioned when discussing Amway. Hope everyone finds it helpful. Paul 21:15, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
To keep all discussions in one place, I am copying the following discussion from my talk page (which followed my comments to the mediator between Insider201283 and Will Beback). -- Knverma 19:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I have added Amway to the Category:Criminals because the corporation plead guilty to tax evasion and other charges in Canada. The corporation itself was the criminal defendant and was convicted.
Some of the information currently presented in this section is in fact incorrect. Status is not determined by ones position in the LOS. Status is derived from the highest pin level achieved. This is quite different, especially at the higher recognition levels where a downline can, and often, has a higher status than the upline. Also, reference to employment is incorrect. People who register with Amway are independent operators responsible for their own business activities (within a number of rules and regulations outlined in the contract).
Your point is well taken, and reinforces the Amway Corporation's attention to detail in creating and maintaining its business plan. Distributors must earn their pin level (and attendant income from Amway) and re-qualify every year.
The problem with this is that pin levels are also used by AMOs to determine speaking fees and discounts on "tools" merchandise, e.g., the bigger your pin, the more money you make selling books, tapes, seminar tickets to your groups. Amway is strict about qualification and re-qualification, but AMOs are not. "Once a Diamond, Always a Diamond" are the words the Yager organization uses to describe this policy.
Brad Eleven but hey Amway is involved with arms smuggling and drug narcotics smuggling across the globe by w=using a security comapny called Blackwater.
I have removed the reference to Network21 being the most "international" of all the LOS. This comment is unsubstantiated. Whoever entered it should include a reference before returning it to the article.
This article's quality, as is somewhat inevitable, is degrating. It is filled with Amquix jargon and not wikified all that well. Paul 15:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
EDIT--I've been associated with Amway for quite a long time. Quite a bit of info here is missing. Not an article upto the "encyclopedia" standards. -- Sy2yp ( talk) 00:38, 5 March 2008 (UTC)-- Sy2yp ( talk) 14:05, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
This para in the intro:
Says nothing, it is vague and mildy apologetic. It is totally unsourced and has some POV phrases such as 'less fortunate elements'. I will chop it out in a few days unless someone objects. Ashmoo 06:08, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Dick DeVos is indeed the son of Richard Sr., co-founder of Amway. However, he has not been President for several years, his brother Doug is. I have thus deleted this reference.
There is a 2005 movie which will get additional attention in October called "Believe." The official web site is here. A 1989 episode of Married... with Children called "A Three Job, No Income Family" also spoofs MLM.
A while ago, I had an anti-amway e-book on my computer, written by an ex-emerald in the corporation. I wish to show it to a friend who is considering joing Amway. Unfortunatly, I can't remember the name of the book. Does anyone know what it was called or have a link? The suicide forest 22:37, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
There is a problem with this sentence, but I don't know how to fix it.
"Former Amway CEO Richard DeVos as well as his wife Betsy DeVos, son (and former Alticor CEO) Dick DeVos, and other members of the DeVos family are heavily connected with the dominionist political movement in the U.S."
Betsy DeVos is the wife of DICK DeVos. Dick DeVos' mother, and Richard DeVos' wife, is Helen. However, I didn't want to change the sentence because I don't know whether it's Helen, or Betsy, or both who the author of the sentence meant to reference.
can someone add a section in regards to relationships to network21 or, head over to the Network 21 'article' and contribute information to that so it isnt so blatantly pro-NM!?
Also Amway is linled to arms smuggling narcotics smuggling by using Amway and Quixstar as a front.
for The suicide forest and anyone else who is interested, the book 'Merchants of Deception" can be downloaded for free here :- http://www.merchantsofdeception.com/DOWNLOADBOOK.html It's long at 318 pages but so far I've found it a rip-roaring yarn, an excellent read. So far (I'm at about page 70) he quotes extensively from the actual course materials etc, and there's no criticism of individuals but of Amway's documented working methods and policies. It reads like a novel but I also believe him Merkinsmum 13:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
The link another user gave you is for a pro-Amway site, as you can see if you view it:) Merkinsmum 13:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Not only is it Pro-Amway, Insider is the owner of the site. All you have to do is track the username he uses on the Quixtar Blog Forums to the one he uses here and on the Qblog Forums there is a thread that says it is his site. He has just changed his name on the site to IBOFightBack. So it's not another side of the story, it is his view of the story. He was not involved at all. Independent patriot 07:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC) Yep. insider's website is just his opinionated propaganda. :D
Claiming that the individual business owners/uplines act independently is a device used by Amway to try and avoid legal and other repercussions and responsibilities. In actual fact the methods used by Amway are highly standardised, to the point of being controlling
Merkinsmum
09:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you should read the actual book before going against it. The author spend over a decade in Amway hell and the description is pretty chilling. I guess I don't get it why such semi-criminal cults have to be discussed so neutrally, but the book should be definetly added to the book list, no ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.157.115.158 ( talk) 19:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes but what are you calling 'Amway'? I expect you have plenty of contact with your 'upline' and he gives you plenty of 'advice.' And you probably have some tapes or books and such, you may even have to buy them on a regular basis. Lots of people attend the seminars, which frequently hide that they are Amway. Amway avoid the 'A-word' because otherwise newcomers, potential 'IBOs' and others would not want anything to do with it Merkinsmum 12:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Merger sounds sensible, but this article needs a history section added to include the info on Ja-Ri. -- Insider201283 21:46, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Didn you know Amway is involved with illegal drug muggling and narcotics violations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.38.64.184 ( talk) 08:00, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
80% of this article is unsourced POV and 10% of the rest is sources that fail WP:RS badly.
Commentators have often identified Amway as supporting the U.S. Republican Party
However, Amway Corporation claims to support no political party.
Many of Amway's best-known distributors, including Dexter Yager, have also declared themselves Republicans.
in June 1989 the United Nations Environmental Program's Regional Office for North America recognized it for its contributions to the cause of the environment.
Some senior distributors have been known to promote a world view encompassing Judeo-Christian values, and a general advocacy of boomer/50s values. Their training organisations', AMO's, perception of the role of women, though, always includes successful women in awards, recognition and speaking engagements. One rarely, if ever, sees a male, married distributor speak on stage without his wife getting equal billing, and explaining her active role in the business. This is a reflection of the AMOs' strong advocacy of the 1950s style nuclear family model. Amway rules forbid promotion of any particular politicial or religious position within distributor organisations; however, enforcement of this rule has not been strict.
Doug Wead, who was a Special Assistant to former U.S. President George H. W. Bush, is a successful IBO who is a regular speaker at group rallies.
Amway cofounder, the late Jay Van Andel (in 1980), and later his son Steve Van Andel (in 2001) were elected by the board of directors of the United States Chamber of Commerce as chairman of that organization.
In May of 2005, former Amway President Dick DeVos, one of the wealthiest and largest charitable givers in Michigan, announced that he would run against Governor Jennifer Granholm in Michigan's 2006 gubernatorial election. DeVos won 42% of the popular vote, while Granholm won 56%.
Former Amway CEO Richard DeVos as well as his son (and former Alticor CEO) Dick DeVos and daughter-in-law Betsy DeVos, and other members of the DeVos family are heavily connected with the dominionist political movement in the U.S.[5][6] The DeVos foundation is one of the single largest donors to specifically dominionist political groups in the U.S.;[7][8] Betsy DeVos' mother Elsa Prince Broekhuizen is both major financial contributor to dominionist causes and a voting board member of the "Religious Right" group Focus on the Family.[9][10] Other members of the DeVos family known to be involved in rightwing politics include Betsy DeVos's brother Erik Prince, CEO of the controversial military contractor Blackwater USA[11]. Richard DeVos himself is known to be a member of the secretive Council for National Policy, an invitation-only group that is a "think tank" for both dominionist and Neoconservative groups.[12][13][14][15][16]
Multiple high-ranking Amway leaders, including Richard DeVos, Dexter Yager, and others are also owners and members of the board of Gospel Films, a producer of movies and books geared towards conservative Christians as well as co-owner (along with Salem Communications) of Gospel Communications.[17]
In 1983, Amway, headed by Richard DeVos, pleaded guilty to tax evasion and customs fraud in Canada, resulting in a fine of $25 million CAD, the largest fine ever imposed in that country.
Amivo acts as an Amway subsidiary in Europe.
Amway (and its American online incarnation, Quixtar) have been controversial due to allegations that these companies are pyramid schemes or cults
Typically, IBOs spend money on tapes, books, and seminars which are promoted to IBOs as the preferred way to learn the "business skills of the IBOs" and to maintain their desire to build their business.
Typically, IBOs spend money on tapes, books, and seminars which are promoted to IBOs as the preferred way to learn the "business skills of the IBOs" and to maintain their desire to build their business. These are not provided by Amway itself but organizations often described as Amway Motivational Organizations (AMO) in general run by people in the higher ranks of the organization. One example of an AMO is Crown Ambassador Dexter Yager's organization, the International Dreambuilders' Association/Digital Alliance (usually simply referred to by the abbreviation IDA), one of the largest and most widely-known AMOs. Claims regarding the support material (known as "tools" in AMO parlance) range from "can be of help to an IBO " to some organizations claiming they "are absolutely required" to "build a big business". However, investigations like one done by Dateline NBC in April 2003 (this episode aired in 2004) suggested that most of the money being earned by these successful individuals was coming from the hidden "tools" business rather than through selling the company products. Critics also claim that the materials are specifically geared towards encouraging IBOs to continue working for a non-economic return, rather than improving their actual business skills. Proponents of the materials claim that the "tools" business is the best way to develop a large business, because every person in their organization can get the same information (as opposed to the results achieved by "playing telephone" as a child, where one person passes a message onto another, to another, etc). Proponents note that many IBOs with large numbers of people in their organization cannot possibly spend the required time teaching every single person without taking time away from their family or job or other responsibilities.
As noted above, several groups — usually ex-Amway members, but also some groups associated with the anti-cult movement — have expressed concern that tactics of AMOs may constitute cult-like activity. Steven Hassan's Freedom of Mind Institute, that monitors potentially abusive groups, lists the practices of AMOs as potentially abusive according to his "BITE" Model of mind control. [1] Other exit counseling organizations that have expressed concern with the activities of AMOs in practice include FACTnet,[20] Cult Awareness and Information Centre (Australia),[21] and others. The Rick Ross Institute, keeps a collection of related material in its website. [2] Sources are highly POV and discredited by most mainstream academia and invalid WP:RS and WP:COI as sources. They are professional "cult busters" who charge thousands a day to "save" people. See http://www.slate.com/?id=2061166 for a quick overview.
1. There is virtually no proper information on the role of PDPs - Professional Development Programs. Yager Internet Services/IDA is mentioned, however his is just one of literally dozens of independent companies providing PDPs to Amway IBOs. The term "AMO" is POV and misleading and was created by an Amway critic - in reality "motivation" is only one small part of what they do.
2. As mentioned the Amway/Quixtar relationship needs to be explained properly. Amway has not existed in the US for several years but still operates globally
3. There is very little mention of Amway history, unique products, endorsements, success stories, philanthropy etc etc. Apart from the UNEP award it has for example been labelled a "global superbrand". It's products have won numerous awards and a notable for a number of technological and historical reasons.
4. Little mention is made about international markets and expansion - which is 100% of Amway these days. The article as it stands is virtually entirely historical (and onesided at that) and completely ignores the last decade. Much of it belongs in the "urban myth" category.
5. Very ethnocentric and POV, when controversy is discussed it is unsourced and focuses on individuals and groups without providing context. Dexter Yager is for example but one of around 70 Crown Ambassadors and the "AMO" he runs is not even the largest. There is a large focus on the christian beliefs over the founders and some IBOs like Yager, when in reality it is likely the majority of IBOs are not even Christian and Amway rules explictly talk about "the right to differ".
-- Insider201283 19:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I re-arranged the material (with few textual changes) to get it more into chronological order, and to keep topics together better. It does need a re-write, some consolidation, and more sources.
I've read over the opinion twice now and I still don't see where it says that Amway (or even the distributors) had no knowledge of the copyright violation. I'm not a lawyer. Perhaps someone can point out where this is stated? - Will Beback · † · 07:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
This appears to amount to nothing. Any objections to omitting it entirely, pending other developments? - Will Beback · † · 08:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Did you research eCoupled before declaring this "puffery"? This is a major new technology, the first product using it is "notable" in my opinion. Google "eCoupled" and you'll find a huge number of hits all resulting from a press release only a few days old.-- Insider201283 11:45, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
{Self-published}, {POV-section}, and {SectOR} tags have been aded to the "Politics and culture" and "Controversy" sections. Can we discuss here what problems there are with those sections? - Will Beback · † · 01:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I understand the reasons for deleting the link to Eric Scheibeler's site. On the other hand it is fair to point to the claims of so many former high level distributors (emeralds and diamonds). I can provide more such sites if needed.
Knverma
08:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps we could say something like "many former high level distributors make such and such claims". Knverma 09:14, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Knverma 18:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
If the world is "ignorant" of N21, don't worry, I am interested in documenting N21 also besides Britt. We have another reason to provide some solid documentation to remove their "ignorance". Regarding sizes, I have not yet checked the situation in other countries. But according to quixtarwiki (again correct if they are wrong) N21 has something like 3-4 diamonds in India. The number of Britt diamonds in India (counting the breakaway WI group) might be a dozen or a few dozens, I have to check. If you have precise figures from other countries, let us know. -- Knverma 11:36, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The newly added paragraph about Amway China is written POV, implies Amway is a pyramid schemes, uses invalid sources (self-published website copies of news articles) and implies Amway was specifically banned when it was all direct-selling organisations. [8] http://www.mlive.com/business/kzgazette/index.ssf?/base/business-3/116693763565130.xml&coll=7 -- Insider201283 01:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes this link is important and provides newer information which I was going to add. Remember it is dated 2006 where as the other article is dated 2003, so this information should be included. Some new direct-selling laws have probably been created after that 2003 article, but I don't have details. Usage of the term "pyramid scheme" could be inappropriate. On the other hand, it does not imply that Amway was specifically banned. It says that all pyramid schemes including Amway was banned. And of course this article is about Amway so we need to mention Amway. -- Knverma 02:03, 10 January 2007 (UTC) Pyramid Schemes were not banned. From my understanding they were already illegal in China. Direct selling was what was banned. To say "pyramid schemes including Amway was banned" is simply false and misleading. -- Insider201283 02:07, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
"In 1998, in an effort to crack down on illegal pyramid schemes (many of which had attempted to disguise themselves as multi-level marketing companies) the Chinese Government enacted a ban on all direct selling. Legitimate companies such as Amway, Avon, and Mary Kay continued to operate through a network of retail stores promoted by authorised agents. In December 2006 Amway was one of the first companies to receive a government licence to resume direct selling activities." -- Insider201283 20:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
"In 1998, in an effort to crack down on illegal pyramid schemes (which many people reportedly found hard to differentiate from legal direct selling) the Chinese Government enacted a ban on all direct selling. Legitimate companies such as Amway, Avon, and Mary Kay continued to operate through a network of retail stores promoted by authorised "non-employee" representatives. In December 2006 Amway was one of the first companies to receive a government licence to resume direct selling activities." [14] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Insider201283 ( talk • contribs) 22:21, 15 January 2007 (UTC).
In fact the second last link by Will does say that the confusion between direct selling and pyramid schemes was the cause of the ban. So if anyone wants to include this statement then I have no objections. -- Knverma 11:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I strongly urge the Amway and Quixtar pages to be merged. I fear we are going to end up repeating too much material. "Quixtar" is essential the new name of "Amway US/Canada". The former distributors of Amway are now with Quixtar. The lawsuits against them refer to Amway and Quixtar as one entity. The AMOs like those Britt and Yager concern both Amway and Quixtar distributors. If there are no separate pages for Amway UK, Amway China, etc then why a separate page for Amway US (Quixtar)? -- Knverma 12:42, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
The word "Amway" appears at least 6 times in the Dateline transcript. And the Amway-Quixtar connection is emphasized at least twice. The key personnel, other than DeVos and Van Andel family, are the top distributors (even if they are not employees). No one is interested in articles about the heads of Amway Australia, Europe, etc. The top distributors in these countries may be important, and if necessary, we can have separate articles for them. I am working on Britt, and at least a few others like Yager may be worthwhile. And we should not have separate articles for BWW (Britt system) US, BWW India, BWW Malaysia etc. Your NBA reasoning is a bit far-fetched. -- Knverma 12:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
You have raised many issues, they need to be dealt with one by one. First what is the source of the 10 million figure? You contest a figure provided by quixtarwiki but are not prividing the source of your figure. --
Knverma
16:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes this 3-4 million figure is what I have seen everywhere. If you do your own calculation to provide some 10 million figure then that cannot be used on Wikipedia. -- Knverma 19:14, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I was contesting your statement that most of the Amway world has not heard of Americans like Britt. This clearly seems not to be the case. And I didn't deny that the Quixtar PR said that. But connecting this to China is what I called far-fetched. -- Knverma 19:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Re Amway Arena, how is "connecting this to China" farfetched? China has 30 million people watching the NBA every week [16] compared to less than 84,000 US household who watched last years NBA finals [17]. The stadium was renamed Amway Arena on December 11, less than a week after Alticor announced Amway China received it's direct selling licence [18]. Quixtar PR says one of the reasons for the renaming was global NBA coverage [19]. "farfetched"? I don't think so. -- Insider201283 19:46, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Re China: The point is that you are using those long arguments to show that Amway China is very distinct from Quixtar. If the Quixtar PR talks about worldwide coverage etc. then it is only further evidence of the Amway-Quixtar connection. -- Knverma 20:04, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
The link you gave itself says that Quixtar and Amway are deeply connected: Alticor has two business opportunity brands -- Quixtar in North America and Amway in dozens of countries and territories around the world. Amway started here in the U.S. nearly 50 years ago and while interest in Quixtar exceeded interest in Amway here a few years back, the Amway name is synonymous with our kind of multilevel marketing business. Amway is the brand most associated with our company on a global basis as in most of the countries and territories in which we do business, we do business as Amway. Amway is responsible for the lion's share of Alticor sales. And, we have Quixtar IBOs who have Amway businesses in other markets and Amway IBOs who have Quixtar businesses here. -- Knverma 20:14, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Willscrlt seemed not so much in favor of a merger. If that continues to be so then I will close this discussion, as we probably need to make some compromises. -- Knverma 12:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
About a year ago, this article had a good explanation on the Amway business model, etc. In fact the whole article was pretty good in general. I come back and all the business model info been excised -- nothing but a heading! Instead the article is filled with legal rulings, criticisms, unsubstantiated claims, and POV guff. Basically it stinks. God I am sick of continually seeing this happening, it's one of the things which is really starting to sh*t me about Wikipedia :( -- Jquarry 06:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I wasn't involved in the article at the time, but I see that the old text on pin levels had no sources. Are there any good sources on this topic? It'd be worthwhile having more info on this. - Will Beback · † · 21:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but the claim about Dominionism is bunk. The citations are 2 OPINION columns that appear to only casually link the Devos clan to dominionism. This is highly disputed accusation (a blog and liberal Rolling Stone magazine not necessarily the most authoritative sources). The family has roots in the Christian Reformed Church which at the denominational level is a bit left-of-center. Dominionism is a highly debated theology not generally linked to mainstream Christian conservatives. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.72.215.225 ( talk) 17:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC).
The following section has been removed by an IP several times. Initially I reverted, but since the section is unreferenced and has (by removal) been contested, I'm now moving it here for discussion. — AldeBaer ( c) 18:00, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
{{ Unreferenced}} A significant part of the Amway culture is the promotion and sale of training materials, as well as the attendance at meetings and rallies locally, regionally, and nationally. Training includes education about the topic of generalized, non-Amway specific entrepreneurship. The purpose of this is to create interest and enthusiasm. They are intended to maintain and increase membership, and to inspire IBOs to be more successful in their businesses. To a casual observer, they have some resemblance to a religious gathering, due to the fact that meetings and rallies within some distributor organisations in the United States begin with the Pledge of Allegiance and a prayer. (As noted above, exit counseling groups have expressed concern in regards to this.) By involving people in a regular schedule of meetings, people are encouraged to maintain their focus, and to not be distracted by critics and other nay-sayers. Their training organisations', AMOs, perception of the role of women, though, always includes successful women in awards, recognition and speaking engagements. One rarely, if ever, sees a male, married distributor speak on stage without his wife getting equal billing, and explaining her active role in the business.
Typically, IBOs spend money on tapes, books, and seminars which are promoted to IBOs as the preferred way to learn the "business skills of the IBOs" and to maintain their desire to build their business. These "Business Support Materials", or "BSMs", are not provided by Amway itself but organizations often described as Amway Motivational Organizations (AMO) in general run by people in the higher ranks of the organization. One example of an AMO is Crown Ambassador Dexter Yager's organization, the International Dreambuilders' Association/Digital Alliance (usually simply referred to by the abbreviation IDA), one of the largest and most widely-known AMOs. Claims regarding the support material (also known as "tools" in AMO parlance) range from "can be of help to an IBO" to some organizations claiming they "are absolutely required" to "build a big business". Investigations like one done by Dateline NBC [1] in April 2003 (this episode aired in 2004) suggested that most of the money being earned by these successful individuals was coming from the hidden "tools" business rather than through selling the company products.
Other AMOs include Britt World Wide, Network TwentyOne, TEAM, INA, ILD, WWDB, efinity, Marker Man Productions, Biznet or Harteis International, ProAlliance and Interbiz.
Winners International System was established in 2005. Tapes and function tickets generate PV and BV as regular products. EDC Kanti Gala is the chairman of this system. http://www.winnersinternational.org
Amway India has formed certain rules to be followed by the distributors as well as the 3rd party vendors like BWW (Britt World Wide), and others who sell Business Support Material or shortly called BSM. These guidelines amended in Sept 2005, state that the BSM sold shall be under buy-back policy for a period of 90 days from the day of Purchase. and the various purchases made by Standing Order or the annual subscription of tapes and books etc can be cancelled at any time. But the Cash memos the distributors get from BWW while purchasing the BSMs mentions that "The goods once sold can not be refunded back" which is direct violation with the rules framed by the Amway company. Again the cancellation of the SOT (Standing Order is not accepted by the BWW, which is again a violation. + Gautam Mahapatra + Gautam Gautammahapatra ( talk) 18:00, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I think this article needs to include a discussion of the social impact of Amway eg people becoming unrealistically optimistic about what they can earn through Amway, losing money, losing their friends (due to insistent invitations to sales and marketing meetings) and so forth. While I realise it is not the role of wikipedia to warn people about dubious business ventures, I think that as it stands the article does not give people unfamiliar with pyramid selling and suchlike schemes enough context or background. I think that a brief statement about the social impact and questionable ethics of Amway should be added to the first paragraph. As it stands, the article is full of facts but the level of detail tends to distract one from the main issues surrounding Amway. Soler97 ( talk) 22:24, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Dr. Shad Helmstetter is a published author (not just self-published ala hassan/ross) and behavioural scientist. Personal communications I've had with both Ross and Hassan indicate neither have done *any* direct research into Amway, yet you appear to consider their claims ok? Helmstetter's comments refer directly to their statements. -- Insider201283 ( talk) 01:58, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
An editor deleted this material with the edit summary of "The doctor is just another shill for Amway". [23] Is there any evidence to show that this is the case? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:23, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Anyone can write a self-help book these days. What are the credentials of DOCTOR Helmstetter? I might be getting forgetful, but in some Amway promotional material I have come across in the distant past, Helmstetter got his Ph.D. at "Amway university" specializing in "Amway". Can anyone verify this? This material was already in circulation in the late 90s (when it came to my attention) so it must have been a little longer when this particular material was published. -- Bart weisser ( talk) 06:33, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Will, you're the man ... (I am not worthy) -- Bart weisser ( talk) 06:33, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
(undent) Like I said, his credentials aren't relevant. What's relevant is whether the statements that you're referencing have been published in a reliable source. Any self-published sources are inherently non-reliable, no matter who is self-publishing. As far as I can tell, the only place his statements regarding Amway being a cult have been published are in "Firedup.org". If you're able to find a more-reliable source where the same thing has been published, we can include it. johnpseudo 22:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Insider - self-published sources are considered credible if and only if it still stands after being scrutinized from all points of view. Helmstetter's research on Amway has not been rigorously examined by anyone, even from people in Amway. From that standpoint, I do not consider this source to be accurate or credible. Since his qualifications as a "behavioral scientist" is in question (thanks to research from Will Beback), I think there is no question of Helmstetter's credibility as an academic himself. On these two points, I think there is something to say about his so-called scholarly work? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.83.210.23 ( talk) 06:30, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
The registrar of SouthWest University has confirmed that Dr Shad Helmstetter has a PhD in Psychology from that institution. -- Insider201283 ( talk) 17:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I called up Southwest University. I asked about Helmstetter, the lady immediately (I mean, immediately, not "let me look it up on the records" kind of immediately) told me yes, indeed, Shad earned his Ph.D. in motivational psychology there, in 1987. When I asked her about his thesis title and the names of advisor, she said it that information was in storage. I asked her on the phone to get back to me whenever this information becomes available. -- Bart weisser ( talk) 21:11, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Steming from all that arguments on Helmstetter and credibility, Here may be a happy medium for the two camps. It has been known, that the "cult" aspect of Amway falls technically outside of originally intended jurisdiction of Amway. The sale of MLM propaganda and "motivational" materials (or "tools", as the insiders calls them), as well as proceeds to rallies and seminars, forms a separate economic and organizational entity from Amway. Though the "cult" and the "business" aspects are often associated together, they are still separate on paper. I think, the clarity (and controversy) of the article can be greatly improved once these two topics become separate.
Therefore, it would be a better idea to create a new heading along the line of "Amway, cult, and sale of motivational materials", by stating that Amway and the "motivational" stuff are separate entities, but are often intwined. Then discussions and their credibility can be fully disclosed.
P.S. - insider - what exactly is RS?
-- Bart weisser ( talk) 18:19, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Speaking from experience, I believe the Amway organization is not very transparent. Conversations with a number of my former associates, all of whom had some kind of involvement with Amway, became either ignorant or intentionally deceptive when confronted with such direct questions on Amway. This is also true with members of a number of MLM-type organizations that I have come across in the past.
I think you would agree with me that there is, indeed, a cult element within Amway. It is more important to examine the extent of such element, before such strong comments about credibility of information contrary to one's believe system (such as the ones you have been making) can be justified. This can be evaluated, at first hand, by comparing the sales volume of Amway products to those of the "Tools".
In an open source information such as Wikipedia, I think it is important to dispel these so-called "misconceptions" not by suppressing them, but by casting reasonable doubts instead.
-- Bart weisser ( talk) 21:34, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
What are these references you are talking about? Are they independently affiliated (i.e., not have anything to do with Amway)? I would like to take a look at some of these works.
Also, with regard to the "small group", I guess the main concern is that this particular group that we identify with Amway, are so vocal, that it *has* associated with Amway itself. Again, this is important, because I believe there are "honest" Amway reps (I have yet to see one), again, the organizational structure of Amway makes it close to impossible to see past the "motivational" aspect. -- Bart weisser ( talk) 22:21, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
What are the issues with Ross and CAIC? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:06, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
What's the "standard" for being listed here? There are literally thousands of media articles referring to Amway. Probably tens of thousands. -- Insider201283 ( talk) 22:05, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
All distributors are *not* downline of Ja-Ri. When they formed Amway they maintained Nutrilite Lines of Sponsorship, meaning their upline, Neil Maaskant remained their upline, and his group remained crossline to Ja-Ri. When Amway bought Nutrilite the Nutrilite lines also became crossline to Ja-Ri. -- Insider201283 ( talk) 20:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm adding this section because the massive debate below is a little intimidating to wade through, espiecally if someone just wants to let people know about simple & uncontroversial change.
I have edited the article today (08 January 2003) to promote a more neutral point of view. The article seemed to be biased, just slightly, to an anti-amway perspective; I have deletedo - that is a name exclusive to critics of Amway, and should be mentioned as such. Someone doing that search will not find answers from Amway or pro-Amway folks as they don't use that term.
There are, aligned with Quixtar, groups like ina.net that fit this description and do the training and motivation of Quixtar distributors, who distribute Amway and other products through a common distribution arm.
It's a fundamental issue with direct multi-level marketing organizations that they can't control the behavior of frontline distributors, probably no more than Arafat can control the timing of suicide bombers. Same top-down versus bottom-up behavior influence debate... the Amway Corp does try to make certain things standard, e.g. no "door to door selling", and they succeed in general, but they have only a few blunt instruments with which to do so.
This article needs to be updated, and the "AMOs" need to be documented - I don't doubt that somewhere somehow someone used this name for them, but they serve a legitimate role in multi-level marketing, although they may overstep it and become bad religions...
Who has alleged this when and where?
How could they appeal the conviction when they had pleaded guilty in the first place? Are you saying that they first paid the fine, then successfully appealed the fine and got the money back? How much did they pay in the end? AxelBoldt 03:42 Jan 15, 2003 (UTC)
____ I see somebody has added something about Emma Page jewellery being available through Amway in Australia, as well as New Zealand. Please provide a source for this. I am well aware of its availability in NZ; my wife and I are both Amway distributors and have sold Emma Page jewellery under Amway auspices. In Australia, however, my understanding is that Emma Page has its own distribution network; only in New Zealand does it contract Amway. That was the last I heard (last year) - that Australian Amway distributors were very envious of their New Zealand counterparts because there is a substantial profit in Emma Page. Now, for all I know, this MAY have changed. If it has, could you name your source? I will make some inquiries myself; in the meantime, I will let your edit stand. Davidcannon 11:09, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
This material is from the article List of purported cults, which we are paring down to a pure list. Editors here can best evaluate its statements and decide how to integrate it into this article. Thanks, - Willmcw 21:09, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
I came to this site looking for unbiased information so that I could make a fair evaluation for myself. I have previously been highly skeptical of all multi-level marketing systems and remain so, however, I was afraid I had not been open minded about the idea and wanted more information. I did not find it. This article contains numerous spelling and/or grammatical errors and shows poor proofreading. "IBO" is never written out on this page, I think it's probably "Independent Business Organizatons" or something like that, but abbreviations should be explained on this page. The only pro-Amway linnk is their corporate website, there must be others. The use of the word "kingpin" and the phrase "train wreck" are very far from the Wikipedia call for unbiased language and the paragraph that cites Independent Media TV as well as one that follows do not allow for errors in reporting or POV in those reports but recite the reports as facts themselves. This article needs a lot of work. Unfortunately, I came here looking for information I didn't already have and still don't. Someone else will have to rewrite this entry and I will have to look elsewhere for my information. -- DH 2005.04.07
Your point is well taken. It seems that Amway/Quixtar requires its own page, with links to articles about the various AMOs which have, unfortunately, given the Amway Corporation a bad name. OTOH, Amway--and Richard DeVos in particular--have acknowledged the problem with AMOs, but have not taken any steps to resolve the problem. It is my opinion, from personal experience and research, that the Amway Corporation's marketing plan is extremely fair: Unlike pyramid schemes, their plan requires retail sales, and does not reward individuals for simply finding another hard-working individual whose efforts they can profit from, simply from having sponsored him or her. In particular, it has been shown that the Amway/Quixtar income represents only a fraction of the total income of the wealthiest distributors. Most of the income results from the markup on books, tapes, seminar tickets, and other merchandise sold to unsuspecting distributors, who believe--and in some cases, are told--that these "tools" are sold at cost plus a small margin to cover shipping and other associated expenses. The evidence for this assertion is readily available as free and public information in the dozens of lawsuits filed by distributors who do not like the unfair terms of the "tool business." Brad Eleven
How greatly you are misled about Amway. Amway has been linked to terrorist organisations. It has importeed hard drugs into third world countries. It has smuggled illegal military arms into countries where civil wars have taken place. It has riddiculed many people. Amway is involved with illegal narcotics across the globe. It has also been involved with civil was and wars where many innocent American soldiers have died and many soldiers MIA such as in Vietnam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.38.64.184 ( talk) 07:52, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I've added some information surrounding Amway's cultic characteristics and complications with the legal system, as well as my own observations regarding the behavioural conformity of AMOs with Hassan and Jay Lifton's models of mind control, and mention of G Robert Blakey's expert report from Amway v Proctor & Gamble. However, I've tried to keep this information limited to what I hope are demonstrable facts rather than value judgements/interpretations, and have also largely confined my additions to the "Criticisms" section. Although my opinion of Amway most certainly is not either neutral or positive, it is my hope that because my additions have been contained in Criticisms, and because I have made an attempt to keep my additions factual, a reasonably neutral tone can be maintained, while at the same time noting Amway's less ethically desirable characteristics. I have also removed the references to the terms "train wreck" and "kingpins" in an attempt to create a more neutral tone. - Petrus 06/05/2005
Someone has removed my reference to the Blakey report, which I don't believe is really appropriate. That report includes important information about the structure of Amway...I think it's important that someone thinking of becoming involved with Amway should know if they are potentially becoming involved with a quasi-criminal organisation. - Petrus 08/05/2005
The article needs some work to be brought current; but I'm not sure the best way to go about it. After the 1999 reorganization, a lot of elements were relabeled. The large corporation formerly known as Amway is now called Alticor; the North American division is called Quixtar; the products manufacturing division is now called Access Business Group; and the segment of the company that does business outside North America is now called Amway.
In addition, the word "distributor" is no longer used within the organization; the function has been relabeled "Independent Business Owner" (IBO). There are other examples like this.
The article should also mention the company line given to explain the reorganization (that the Quixtar online division accounted for 95+% of their business within it's first year of operation, so they relegated the Amway name to international business) and the counterpoint that in the States, "Amway" had colloquially become synonymous with "scam" and the company was probably trying to do whatever it took to lose that image.
Because a lot of people don't know about the 1999 reorganization (and because it's kind of confusing) the relabeling is going to have to be explained carefully. Also, a lot of people are unfamiliar with the term "IBO" but are much more familiar with the deprecated "distributor."
Suggestions? Joshf 9 July 2005 12:48 (UTC)
Personally, I wouldn't recommend including the relabelling in a more extensive way than simply offering a glossary of terms. The primary motivation behind the name changes/re-organisation was to attempt to shed the company's entrenched global image of at worst a commercial cult, and at best a quasi-legal organisation with a fundamental structure and function very similar to the traditional crime syndicate, which was ultimately only allowed to do business in the US in particular due to a technicality. Offer a translation table, perhaps, but simply switching to use of the new names could lead to exactly the kind of confusion which those who engineered the name changes were hoping for.
[I've removed the POV check template from the discussion page. See Wikipedia:POV_check for the correct use of this template. Interpolated comment by Joshf 15:32, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Too focused on Dexter Yager's organization which is totally unreflective of the business in other parts of the world especially the fastest growing and already the biggest part of the Amway business, the Asia and Asia Pacific region. Misses completely the success of Foo Howe Kean, a legendary figure as a Crown Ambassador in 3 different countries, and a more identifieable figurehead in the huge Asian region.
Very long sections on critism and controversy, and yet for such a huge business the article is extremely short on business success details. Completely glosses over the fact that it has made many millionaires all over the world. Does not mentione the core products such as the Nutrilite range, which has a long history and contribution in the field of nutrition, the founder being Carl Rhemborg, who created the first multivitamin and mineral supplement over 70 years ago. Also misses the point that Euromonitor has named Artistry as the top 5 leading prestige cosmetic brand in the world.
Very biased article.
-Johan
I'm unsure as to why the above comment was signed with my username, when I have no recollection of writing it. Perhaps the original author made a mistake, or perhaps they were seeking to deliberately impersonate me. Given the degree of moral ambiguity which has at times been observed in Amway's supporters, I can only speculate as to what this individual's motives may have been.
Also in response to the above - it is well known that senior Amway distributors dislike any information about the business' less positive elements becoming public knowledge at all. For all the people who may have become wealthy via Amway, the business remains at least a partially criminal organisation, and while noting its successes, any genuinely objective reference about it must not hesitate in classifying it as such. Organisations such as Amway and the Church of Scientology have been made painfully aware of the ability of the Internet to subject them to a level of a forced accountability which they never experienced in the purely offline world, and they are being made to realise that despite whatever efforts they may make to the contrary, the truth about who and what they really are will become known. Cults can still run, but online they can no longer hide.
Petrus4
02:55, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I have extensive experience with two distinct Amway AMOs. For this article to ignore them is like an article on the world history ignoring the impact of technology. Simply put, it is impossible to build a large multi-level/network marketing business such as Amway or Quixtar without the support of a motivational organization such as an AMO. Consider what owning a franchise would be like without constistent marketing support. Consider also that franchisers ensure that they'll make money from the deal--and that while their motives may seem justified, their methods are not always ethical.
I can see how people with AMO knowledge and an inclination to expose them might contribute material that seems biased. By the same token, I know personally how people currently involved with an AMO become very defensive. I personally argued with newcomers who immediately saw that the tools' prices suggested profit-taking in their sales--before I had any inkling that anyone was profiting from the sales of books, tapes, or seminar tickets.
There is a distinct difference between people who have been unsuccessful with an Amway/AMO and people who have enjoyed success in the same situation. In the former case, the tendency is to blame the organization--and to be perceived that way. There are several highly successful Amway IBOs who have quit and/or sued their respective AMOs over unfair business practices. Conversely, very few successful Amway IBOs have sued Amway.
As for the claim that Amway has produced more millionaires than any other company in the world, I would like to see some documentation. I seriously doubt that many millionaires have been created by Amway alone. Even if some Amway IBOs have taken their Amway income and invested it or diversified into other high-income businesses (e.g., real estate development, automobile dealerships), the Amway corporation just doesn't pay enough for anyone to even gross $1M in one year's time. I'd like to know more about the definition of "millionaire". Is it someone who has $1M or more in assets? Someone who has earned $1M or more in one year?
In 1990, I attained the level of Pearl Direct Distributor, with a very profitable organization. That is, I had twenty personally sponsored distributors, and nine were actively building their organizations. Two had gone direct, i.e., attained the level of Direct Distributor, and the other seven were Silver Producers (their organizations included at least one Direct, but they themselves hadn't qualified for Direct). My Amway checks included four distinct bonuses for speed of growth, overall volume, profit sharing, and for the number of direct distributors in my organization. My gross income from the Amway corporation--above bonuses plus PV bonuses--peaked at $3300/month. While the Pearl level is certainly not the highest level--and recognizing that the bonus structure has obviously changed over the past 15 years--let us consider my AMO income at that level. In five months after I made Pearl, I got AMO checks for $5400, $6100, $7900, $8700, and $9900. Let us be very clear: The AMO checks represented profit sharing from the AMO's sales of books, tapes, and seminar tickets, plus speaking fees I was paid for appearing at regional rallies. As I approached the Emerald level, several of my upline Diamonds counseled me to quit my job. I didn't want to quit, and I was very heavily pressured to do so. Among other things, I was offered a bigger cut of the profits from the tool volume in my organization. Aside from the staggering increase in tools income in the jump from Pearl to Emerald, I was taken aback at just how much money was at stake--and how much more the Diamonds and other high pin levels were making. It was obvious that the AMO income represented far more than their Amway income. After seeing a crossline Pearl get cut out of the AMO pie because of his religion (possibly particular to the AMO), I bailed out. I didn't want to quit my job because I enjoyed it, and I didn't want to get stuck doing what my AMO "upline" said to do because I needed the money.
I don't think it's important to "expose" the AMOs. I realize that some people are ashamed of Dexter Yager, and that some have deep respect for what he has accomplished. I think it's vital for an encyclopedia page to fully disclose all known information on any topic.
I don't think that this [discussion page] is the forum to relate AMO experiences. I personally had a bad experience that may or may not be representative of AMO participants, and so I decided to quit. I sold my Amway business. Take note that my AMO business was not considered saleable--the AMO decided who got my piece of the profits. Consider this fact the next time you hear (or say) that an Amway business and its attendant residual bonuses are willable and fully transferable.
I don't know what the best way to represent the AMOs is, but I am certain that they must be referenced. Perhaps a link to another page? For sure the claim that Amway has created the most millionaires should be either substantiated or removed. The current page is pretty representative of the Amway Corporation. Leaving out the AMOs doesn't work, although I support a neutral/positive page on the Amway Corporation. My experience with Amway is excellent: the company has unusually high integrity, its products are superior, if overpriced, and it has worked very hard to create a multilevel/network marketing system that truly rewards hard work, and only hard work. The same just can't be said of the AMOs.
Regarding the argument that Dexter Yager is an American and that IBOs in other countries have enjoyed great success: In any industry, the chief innovators are at least acknowledged. Dexter was a pioneer in that he figured out how to motivate people, to really help them to succeed--and he built in compensation for his efforts. That's revolutionary, and in theory, it's fair. Certainly the other super-IBOs worldwide owe something to Dexter. In many cases, he has provided his expertise, personally and via his closest associates, to IBOs the world over. You can be sure that he is compensated for this, whether by selling materials to the IBOs, providing production support, or through some other long-term arrangement. There is still nothing wrong with this.
The problem is simply that the AMOs are for the most part concealed. They are analogous to the lobbying industry in our government: they provide substantial leverage to the corporation and to the IBOs, but they are very secretive about their practices. Like the government's apparent unwillingness to reform the lobbying industry, Amway does a lot of talking about the problems with AMOs, but it refuses to take action. It is not at all obvious that most of the money earned by successful Amway IBOs comes from AMOs. Nor is it obvious that the AMOs do not use the same reward system as the Amway corporation. The AMOs have dominated the Amway corporation's distributor affairs organizations in the same way that their IBOs dominate Amway's volume.
I don't think it's important to make the AMOs wrong. Although they have had major problems with individual members (what wealthy organization doesn't?), their activities are not illegal, with the possible exception of some minor disclosures. Officially speaking, they are silent about the amount of money that they take in and pay out. Some individuals do misrepresent this aspect of AMOs, whether intentionally or naively.
Brad Eleven 17:12, 12 September 2005 (GMT)
I don't think being "flagged for Google bombimg" can be considered a legal ruling. Stick this under Criticisms, if anywhere. -- Jquarry 21:04, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I added the citation for the 1979 FTC case that is frequently mentioned when discussing Amway. Hope everyone finds it helpful. Paul 21:15, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
To keep all discussions in one place, I am copying the following discussion from my talk page (which followed my comments to the mediator between Insider201283 and Will Beback). -- Knverma 19:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I have added Amway to the Category:Criminals because the corporation plead guilty to tax evasion and other charges in Canada. The corporation itself was the criminal defendant and was convicted.
Some of the information currently presented in this section is in fact incorrect. Status is not determined by ones position in the LOS. Status is derived from the highest pin level achieved. This is quite different, especially at the higher recognition levels where a downline can, and often, has a higher status than the upline. Also, reference to employment is incorrect. People who register with Amway are independent operators responsible for their own business activities (within a number of rules and regulations outlined in the contract).
Your point is well taken, and reinforces the Amway Corporation's attention to detail in creating and maintaining its business plan. Distributors must earn their pin level (and attendant income from Amway) and re-qualify every year.
The problem with this is that pin levels are also used by AMOs to determine speaking fees and discounts on "tools" merchandise, e.g., the bigger your pin, the more money you make selling books, tapes, seminar tickets to your groups. Amway is strict about qualification and re-qualification, but AMOs are not. "Once a Diamond, Always a Diamond" are the words the Yager organization uses to describe this policy.
Brad Eleven but hey Amway is involved with arms smuggling and drug narcotics smuggling across the globe by w=using a security comapny called Blackwater.
I have removed the reference to Network21 being the most "international" of all the LOS. This comment is unsubstantiated. Whoever entered it should include a reference before returning it to the article.
This article's quality, as is somewhat inevitable, is degrating. It is filled with Amquix jargon and not wikified all that well. Paul 15:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
EDIT--I've been associated with Amway for quite a long time. Quite a bit of info here is missing. Not an article upto the "encyclopedia" standards. -- Sy2yp ( talk) 00:38, 5 March 2008 (UTC)-- Sy2yp ( talk) 14:05, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
This para in the intro:
Says nothing, it is vague and mildy apologetic. It is totally unsourced and has some POV phrases such as 'less fortunate elements'. I will chop it out in a few days unless someone objects. Ashmoo 06:08, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Dick DeVos is indeed the son of Richard Sr., co-founder of Amway. However, he has not been President for several years, his brother Doug is. I have thus deleted this reference.
There is a 2005 movie which will get additional attention in October called "Believe." The official web site is here. A 1989 episode of Married... with Children called "A Three Job, No Income Family" also spoofs MLM.
A while ago, I had an anti-amway e-book on my computer, written by an ex-emerald in the corporation. I wish to show it to a friend who is considering joing Amway. Unfortunatly, I can't remember the name of the book. Does anyone know what it was called or have a link? The suicide forest 22:37, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
There is a problem with this sentence, but I don't know how to fix it.
"Former Amway CEO Richard DeVos as well as his wife Betsy DeVos, son (and former Alticor CEO) Dick DeVos, and other members of the DeVos family are heavily connected with the dominionist political movement in the U.S."
Betsy DeVos is the wife of DICK DeVos. Dick DeVos' mother, and Richard DeVos' wife, is Helen. However, I didn't want to change the sentence because I don't know whether it's Helen, or Betsy, or both who the author of the sentence meant to reference.
can someone add a section in regards to relationships to network21 or, head over to the Network 21 'article' and contribute information to that so it isnt so blatantly pro-NM!?
Also Amway is linled to arms smuggling narcotics smuggling by using Amway and Quixstar as a front.
for The suicide forest and anyone else who is interested, the book 'Merchants of Deception" can be downloaded for free here :- http://www.merchantsofdeception.com/DOWNLOADBOOK.html It's long at 318 pages but so far I've found it a rip-roaring yarn, an excellent read. So far (I'm at about page 70) he quotes extensively from the actual course materials etc, and there's no criticism of individuals but of Amway's documented working methods and policies. It reads like a novel but I also believe him Merkinsmum 13:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
The link another user gave you is for a pro-Amway site, as you can see if you view it:) Merkinsmum 13:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Not only is it Pro-Amway, Insider is the owner of the site. All you have to do is track the username he uses on the Quixtar Blog Forums to the one he uses here and on the Qblog Forums there is a thread that says it is his site. He has just changed his name on the site to IBOFightBack. So it's not another side of the story, it is his view of the story. He was not involved at all. Independent patriot 07:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC) Yep. insider's website is just his opinionated propaganda. :D
Claiming that the individual business owners/uplines act independently is a device used by Amway to try and avoid legal and other repercussions and responsibilities. In actual fact the methods used by Amway are highly standardised, to the point of being controlling
Merkinsmum
09:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps you should read the actual book before going against it. The author spend over a decade in Amway hell and the description is pretty chilling. I guess I don't get it why such semi-criminal cults have to be discussed so neutrally, but the book should be definetly added to the book list, no ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.157.115.158 ( talk) 19:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes but what are you calling 'Amway'? I expect you have plenty of contact with your 'upline' and he gives you plenty of 'advice.' And you probably have some tapes or books and such, you may even have to buy them on a regular basis. Lots of people attend the seminars, which frequently hide that they are Amway. Amway avoid the 'A-word' because otherwise newcomers, potential 'IBOs' and others would not want anything to do with it Merkinsmum 12:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Merger sounds sensible, but this article needs a history section added to include the info on Ja-Ri. -- Insider201283 21:46, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
Didn you know Amway is involved with illegal drug muggling and narcotics violations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.38.64.184 ( talk) 08:00, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
80% of this article is unsourced POV and 10% of the rest is sources that fail WP:RS badly.
Commentators have often identified Amway as supporting the U.S. Republican Party
However, Amway Corporation claims to support no political party.
Many of Amway's best-known distributors, including Dexter Yager, have also declared themselves Republicans.
in June 1989 the United Nations Environmental Program's Regional Office for North America recognized it for its contributions to the cause of the environment.
Some senior distributors have been known to promote a world view encompassing Judeo-Christian values, and a general advocacy of boomer/50s values. Their training organisations', AMO's, perception of the role of women, though, always includes successful women in awards, recognition and speaking engagements. One rarely, if ever, sees a male, married distributor speak on stage without his wife getting equal billing, and explaining her active role in the business. This is a reflection of the AMOs' strong advocacy of the 1950s style nuclear family model. Amway rules forbid promotion of any particular politicial or religious position within distributor organisations; however, enforcement of this rule has not been strict.
Doug Wead, who was a Special Assistant to former U.S. President George H. W. Bush, is a successful IBO who is a regular speaker at group rallies.
Amway cofounder, the late Jay Van Andel (in 1980), and later his son Steve Van Andel (in 2001) were elected by the board of directors of the United States Chamber of Commerce as chairman of that organization.
In May of 2005, former Amway President Dick DeVos, one of the wealthiest and largest charitable givers in Michigan, announced that he would run against Governor Jennifer Granholm in Michigan's 2006 gubernatorial election. DeVos won 42% of the popular vote, while Granholm won 56%.
Former Amway CEO Richard DeVos as well as his son (and former Alticor CEO) Dick DeVos and daughter-in-law Betsy DeVos, and other members of the DeVos family are heavily connected with the dominionist political movement in the U.S.[5][6] The DeVos foundation is one of the single largest donors to specifically dominionist political groups in the U.S.;[7][8] Betsy DeVos' mother Elsa Prince Broekhuizen is both major financial contributor to dominionist causes and a voting board member of the "Religious Right" group Focus on the Family.[9][10] Other members of the DeVos family known to be involved in rightwing politics include Betsy DeVos's brother Erik Prince, CEO of the controversial military contractor Blackwater USA[11]. Richard DeVos himself is known to be a member of the secretive Council for National Policy, an invitation-only group that is a "think tank" for both dominionist and Neoconservative groups.[12][13][14][15][16]
Multiple high-ranking Amway leaders, including Richard DeVos, Dexter Yager, and others are also owners and members of the board of Gospel Films, a producer of movies and books geared towards conservative Christians as well as co-owner (along with Salem Communications) of Gospel Communications.[17]
In 1983, Amway, headed by Richard DeVos, pleaded guilty to tax evasion and customs fraud in Canada, resulting in a fine of $25 million CAD, the largest fine ever imposed in that country.
Amivo acts as an Amway subsidiary in Europe.
Amway (and its American online incarnation, Quixtar) have been controversial due to allegations that these companies are pyramid schemes or cults
Typically, IBOs spend money on tapes, books, and seminars which are promoted to IBOs as the preferred way to learn the "business skills of the IBOs" and to maintain their desire to build their business.
Typically, IBOs spend money on tapes, books, and seminars which are promoted to IBOs as the preferred way to learn the "business skills of the IBOs" and to maintain their desire to build their business. These are not provided by Amway itself but organizations often described as Amway Motivational Organizations (AMO) in general run by people in the higher ranks of the organization. One example of an AMO is Crown Ambassador Dexter Yager's organization, the International Dreambuilders' Association/Digital Alliance (usually simply referred to by the abbreviation IDA), one of the largest and most widely-known AMOs. Claims regarding the support material (known as "tools" in AMO parlance) range from "can be of help to an IBO " to some organizations claiming they "are absolutely required" to "build a big business". However, investigations like one done by Dateline NBC in April 2003 (this episode aired in 2004) suggested that most of the money being earned by these successful individuals was coming from the hidden "tools" business rather than through selling the company products. Critics also claim that the materials are specifically geared towards encouraging IBOs to continue working for a non-economic return, rather than improving their actual business skills. Proponents of the materials claim that the "tools" business is the best way to develop a large business, because every person in their organization can get the same information (as opposed to the results achieved by "playing telephone" as a child, where one person passes a message onto another, to another, etc). Proponents note that many IBOs with large numbers of people in their organization cannot possibly spend the required time teaching every single person without taking time away from their family or job or other responsibilities.
As noted above, several groups — usually ex-Amway members, but also some groups associated with the anti-cult movement — have expressed concern that tactics of AMOs may constitute cult-like activity. Steven Hassan's Freedom of Mind Institute, that monitors potentially abusive groups, lists the practices of AMOs as potentially abusive according to his "BITE" Model of mind control. [1] Other exit counseling organizations that have expressed concern with the activities of AMOs in practice include FACTnet,[20] Cult Awareness and Information Centre (Australia),[21] and others. The Rick Ross Institute, keeps a collection of related material in its website. [2] Sources are highly POV and discredited by most mainstream academia and invalid WP:RS and WP:COI as sources. They are professional "cult busters" who charge thousands a day to "save" people. See http://www.slate.com/?id=2061166 for a quick overview.
1. There is virtually no proper information on the role of PDPs - Professional Development Programs. Yager Internet Services/IDA is mentioned, however his is just one of literally dozens of independent companies providing PDPs to Amway IBOs. The term "AMO" is POV and misleading and was created by an Amway critic - in reality "motivation" is only one small part of what they do.
2. As mentioned the Amway/Quixtar relationship needs to be explained properly. Amway has not existed in the US for several years but still operates globally
3. There is very little mention of Amway history, unique products, endorsements, success stories, philanthropy etc etc. Apart from the UNEP award it has for example been labelled a "global superbrand". It's products have won numerous awards and a notable for a number of technological and historical reasons.
4. Little mention is made about international markets and expansion - which is 100% of Amway these days. The article as it stands is virtually entirely historical (and onesided at that) and completely ignores the last decade. Much of it belongs in the "urban myth" category.
5. Very ethnocentric and POV, when controversy is discussed it is unsourced and focuses on individuals and groups without providing context. Dexter Yager is for example but one of around 70 Crown Ambassadors and the "AMO" he runs is not even the largest. There is a large focus on the christian beliefs over the founders and some IBOs like Yager, when in reality it is likely the majority of IBOs are not even Christian and Amway rules explictly talk about "the right to differ".
-- Insider201283 19:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I re-arranged the material (with few textual changes) to get it more into chronological order, and to keep topics together better. It does need a re-write, some consolidation, and more sources.
I've read over the opinion twice now and I still don't see where it says that Amway (or even the distributors) had no knowledge of the copyright violation. I'm not a lawyer. Perhaps someone can point out where this is stated? - Will Beback · † · 07:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
This appears to amount to nothing. Any objections to omitting it entirely, pending other developments? - Will Beback · † · 08:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Did you research eCoupled before declaring this "puffery"? This is a major new technology, the first product using it is "notable" in my opinion. Google "eCoupled" and you'll find a huge number of hits all resulting from a press release only a few days old.-- Insider201283 11:45, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
{Self-published}, {POV-section}, and {SectOR} tags have been aded to the "Politics and culture" and "Controversy" sections. Can we discuss here what problems there are with those sections? - Will Beback · † · 01:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I understand the reasons for deleting the link to Eric Scheibeler's site. On the other hand it is fair to point to the claims of so many former high level distributors (emeralds and diamonds). I can provide more such sites if needed.
Knverma
08:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps we could say something like "many former high level distributors make such and such claims". Knverma 09:14, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Knverma 18:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
If the world is "ignorant" of N21, don't worry, I am interested in documenting N21 also besides Britt. We have another reason to provide some solid documentation to remove their "ignorance". Regarding sizes, I have not yet checked the situation in other countries. But according to quixtarwiki (again correct if they are wrong) N21 has something like 3-4 diamonds in India. The number of Britt diamonds in India (counting the breakaway WI group) might be a dozen or a few dozens, I have to check. If you have precise figures from other countries, let us know. -- Knverma 11:36, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The newly added paragraph about Amway China is written POV, implies Amway is a pyramid schemes, uses invalid sources (self-published website copies of news articles) and implies Amway was specifically banned when it was all direct-selling organisations. [8] http://www.mlive.com/business/kzgazette/index.ssf?/base/business-3/116693763565130.xml&coll=7 -- Insider201283 01:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes this link is important and provides newer information which I was going to add. Remember it is dated 2006 where as the other article is dated 2003, so this information should be included. Some new direct-selling laws have probably been created after that 2003 article, but I don't have details. Usage of the term "pyramid scheme" could be inappropriate. On the other hand, it does not imply that Amway was specifically banned. It says that all pyramid schemes including Amway was banned. And of course this article is about Amway so we need to mention Amway. -- Knverma 02:03, 10 January 2007 (UTC) Pyramid Schemes were not banned. From my understanding they were already illegal in China. Direct selling was what was banned. To say "pyramid schemes including Amway was banned" is simply false and misleading. -- Insider201283 02:07, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
"In 1998, in an effort to crack down on illegal pyramid schemes (many of which had attempted to disguise themselves as multi-level marketing companies) the Chinese Government enacted a ban on all direct selling. Legitimate companies such as Amway, Avon, and Mary Kay continued to operate through a network of retail stores promoted by authorised agents. In December 2006 Amway was one of the first companies to receive a government licence to resume direct selling activities." -- Insider201283 20:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
"In 1998, in an effort to crack down on illegal pyramid schemes (which many people reportedly found hard to differentiate from legal direct selling) the Chinese Government enacted a ban on all direct selling. Legitimate companies such as Amway, Avon, and Mary Kay continued to operate through a network of retail stores promoted by authorised "non-employee" representatives. In December 2006 Amway was one of the first companies to receive a government licence to resume direct selling activities." [14] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Insider201283 ( talk • contribs) 22:21, 15 January 2007 (UTC).
In fact the second last link by Will does say that the confusion between direct selling and pyramid schemes was the cause of the ban. So if anyone wants to include this statement then I have no objections. -- Knverma 11:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I strongly urge the Amway and Quixtar pages to be merged. I fear we are going to end up repeating too much material. "Quixtar" is essential the new name of "Amway US/Canada". The former distributors of Amway are now with Quixtar. The lawsuits against them refer to Amway and Quixtar as one entity. The AMOs like those Britt and Yager concern both Amway and Quixtar distributors. If there are no separate pages for Amway UK, Amway China, etc then why a separate page for Amway US (Quixtar)? -- Knverma 12:42, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
The word "Amway" appears at least 6 times in the Dateline transcript. And the Amway-Quixtar connection is emphasized at least twice. The key personnel, other than DeVos and Van Andel family, are the top distributors (even if they are not employees). No one is interested in articles about the heads of Amway Australia, Europe, etc. The top distributors in these countries may be important, and if necessary, we can have separate articles for them. I am working on Britt, and at least a few others like Yager may be worthwhile. And we should not have separate articles for BWW (Britt system) US, BWW India, BWW Malaysia etc. Your NBA reasoning is a bit far-fetched. -- Knverma 12:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
You have raised many issues, they need to be dealt with one by one. First what is the source of the 10 million figure? You contest a figure provided by quixtarwiki but are not prividing the source of your figure. --
Knverma
16:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes this 3-4 million figure is what I have seen everywhere. If you do your own calculation to provide some 10 million figure then that cannot be used on Wikipedia. -- Knverma 19:14, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I was contesting your statement that most of the Amway world has not heard of Americans like Britt. This clearly seems not to be the case. And I didn't deny that the Quixtar PR said that. But connecting this to China is what I called far-fetched. -- Knverma 19:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Re Amway Arena, how is "connecting this to China" farfetched? China has 30 million people watching the NBA every week [16] compared to less than 84,000 US household who watched last years NBA finals [17]. The stadium was renamed Amway Arena on December 11, less than a week after Alticor announced Amway China received it's direct selling licence [18]. Quixtar PR says one of the reasons for the renaming was global NBA coverage [19]. "farfetched"? I don't think so. -- Insider201283 19:46, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Re China: The point is that you are using those long arguments to show that Amway China is very distinct from Quixtar. If the Quixtar PR talks about worldwide coverage etc. then it is only further evidence of the Amway-Quixtar connection. -- Knverma 20:04, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
The link you gave itself says that Quixtar and Amway are deeply connected: Alticor has two business opportunity brands -- Quixtar in North America and Amway in dozens of countries and territories around the world. Amway started here in the U.S. nearly 50 years ago and while interest in Quixtar exceeded interest in Amway here a few years back, the Amway name is synonymous with our kind of multilevel marketing business. Amway is the brand most associated with our company on a global basis as in most of the countries and territories in which we do business, we do business as Amway. Amway is responsible for the lion's share of Alticor sales. And, we have Quixtar IBOs who have Amway businesses in other markets and Amway IBOs who have Quixtar businesses here. -- Knverma 20:14, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Willscrlt seemed not so much in favor of a merger. If that continues to be so then I will close this discussion, as we probably need to make some compromises. -- Knverma 12:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
About a year ago, this article had a good explanation on the Amway business model, etc. In fact the whole article was pretty good in general. I come back and all the business model info been excised -- nothing but a heading! Instead the article is filled with legal rulings, criticisms, unsubstantiated claims, and POV guff. Basically it stinks. God I am sick of continually seeing this happening, it's one of the things which is really starting to sh*t me about Wikipedia :( -- Jquarry 06:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I wasn't involved in the article at the time, but I see that the old text on pin levels had no sources. Are there any good sources on this topic? It'd be worthwhile having more info on this. - Will Beback · † · 21:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but the claim about Dominionism is bunk. The citations are 2 OPINION columns that appear to only casually link the Devos clan to dominionism. This is highly disputed accusation (a blog and liberal Rolling Stone magazine not necessarily the most authoritative sources). The family has roots in the Christian Reformed Church which at the denominational level is a bit left-of-center. Dominionism is a highly debated theology not generally linked to mainstream Christian conservatives. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.72.215.225 ( talk) 17:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC).
The following section has been removed by an IP several times. Initially I reverted, but since the section is unreferenced and has (by removal) been contested, I'm now moving it here for discussion. — AldeBaer ( c) 18:00, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
{{ Unreferenced}} A significant part of the Amway culture is the promotion and sale of training materials, as well as the attendance at meetings and rallies locally, regionally, and nationally. Training includes education about the topic of generalized, non-Amway specific entrepreneurship. The purpose of this is to create interest and enthusiasm. They are intended to maintain and increase membership, and to inspire IBOs to be more successful in their businesses. To a casual observer, they have some resemblance to a religious gathering, due to the fact that meetings and rallies within some distributor organisations in the United States begin with the Pledge of Allegiance and a prayer. (As noted above, exit counseling groups have expressed concern in regards to this.) By involving people in a regular schedule of meetings, people are encouraged to maintain their focus, and to not be distracted by critics and other nay-sayers. Their training organisations', AMOs, perception of the role of women, though, always includes successful women in awards, recognition and speaking engagements. One rarely, if ever, sees a male, married distributor speak on stage without his wife getting equal billing, and explaining her active role in the business.
Typically, IBOs spend money on tapes, books, and seminars which are promoted to IBOs as the preferred way to learn the "business skills of the IBOs" and to maintain their desire to build their business. These "Business Support Materials", or "BSMs", are not provided by Amway itself but organizations often described as Amway Motivational Organizations (AMO) in general run by people in the higher ranks of the organization. One example of an AMO is Crown Ambassador Dexter Yager's organization, the International Dreambuilders' Association/Digital Alliance (usually simply referred to by the abbreviation IDA), one of the largest and most widely-known AMOs. Claims regarding the support material (also known as "tools" in AMO parlance) range from "can be of help to an IBO" to some organizations claiming they "are absolutely required" to "build a big business". Investigations like one done by Dateline NBC [1] in April 2003 (this episode aired in 2004) suggested that most of the money being earned by these successful individuals was coming from the hidden "tools" business rather than through selling the company products.
Other AMOs include Britt World Wide, Network TwentyOne, TEAM, INA, ILD, WWDB, efinity, Marker Man Productions, Biznet or Harteis International, ProAlliance and Interbiz.
Winners International System was established in 2005. Tapes and function tickets generate PV and BV as regular products. EDC Kanti Gala is the chairman of this system. http://www.winnersinternational.org
Amway India has formed certain rules to be followed by the distributors as well as the 3rd party vendors like BWW (Britt World Wide), and others who sell Business Support Material or shortly called BSM. These guidelines amended in Sept 2005, state that the BSM sold shall be under buy-back policy for a period of 90 days from the day of Purchase. and the various purchases made by Standing Order or the annual subscription of tapes and books etc can be cancelled at any time. But the Cash memos the distributors get from BWW while purchasing the BSMs mentions that "The goods once sold can not be refunded back" which is direct violation with the rules framed by the Amway company. Again the cancellation of the SOT (Standing Order is not accepted by the BWW, which is again a violation. + Gautam Mahapatra + Gautam Gautammahapatra ( talk) 18:00, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
I think this article needs to include a discussion of the social impact of Amway eg people becoming unrealistically optimistic about what they can earn through Amway, losing money, losing their friends (due to insistent invitations to sales and marketing meetings) and so forth. While I realise it is not the role of wikipedia to warn people about dubious business ventures, I think that as it stands the article does not give people unfamiliar with pyramid selling and suchlike schemes enough context or background. I think that a brief statement about the social impact and questionable ethics of Amway should be added to the first paragraph. As it stands, the article is full of facts but the level of detail tends to distract one from the main issues surrounding Amway. Soler97 ( talk) 22:24, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Dr. Shad Helmstetter is a published author (not just self-published ala hassan/ross) and behavioural scientist. Personal communications I've had with both Ross and Hassan indicate neither have done *any* direct research into Amway, yet you appear to consider their claims ok? Helmstetter's comments refer directly to their statements. -- Insider201283 ( talk) 01:58, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
An editor deleted this material with the edit summary of "The doctor is just another shill for Amway". [23] Is there any evidence to show that this is the case? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:23, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Anyone can write a self-help book these days. What are the credentials of DOCTOR Helmstetter? I might be getting forgetful, but in some Amway promotional material I have come across in the distant past, Helmstetter got his Ph.D. at "Amway university" specializing in "Amway". Can anyone verify this? This material was already in circulation in the late 90s (when it came to my attention) so it must have been a little longer when this particular material was published. -- Bart weisser ( talk) 06:33, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Will, you're the man ... (I am not worthy) -- Bart weisser ( talk) 06:33, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
(undent) Like I said, his credentials aren't relevant. What's relevant is whether the statements that you're referencing have been published in a reliable source. Any self-published sources are inherently non-reliable, no matter who is self-publishing. As far as I can tell, the only place his statements regarding Amway being a cult have been published are in "Firedup.org". If you're able to find a more-reliable source where the same thing has been published, we can include it. johnpseudo 22:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Insider - self-published sources are considered credible if and only if it still stands after being scrutinized from all points of view. Helmstetter's research on Amway has not been rigorously examined by anyone, even from people in Amway. From that standpoint, I do not consider this source to be accurate or credible. Since his qualifications as a "behavioral scientist" is in question (thanks to research from Will Beback), I think there is no question of Helmstetter's credibility as an academic himself. On these two points, I think there is something to say about his so-called scholarly work? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.83.210.23 ( talk) 06:30, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
The registrar of SouthWest University has confirmed that Dr Shad Helmstetter has a PhD in Psychology from that institution. -- Insider201283 ( talk) 17:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I called up Southwest University. I asked about Helmstetter, the lady immediately (I mean, immediately, not "let me look it up on the records" kind of immediately) told me yes, indeed, Shad earned his Ph.D. in motivational psychology there, in 1987. When I asked her about his thesis title and the names of advisor, she said it that information was in storage. I asked her on the phone to get back to me whenever this information becomes available. -- Bart weisser ( talk) 21:11, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Steming from all that arguments on Helmstetter and credibility, Here may be a happy medium for the two camps. It has been known, that the "cult" aspect of Amway falls technically outside of originally intended jurisdiction of Amway. The sale of MLM propaganda and "motivational" materials (or "tools", as the insiders calls them), as well as proceeds to rallies and seminars, forms a separate economic and organizational entity from Amway. Though the "cult" and the "business" aspects are often associated together, they are still separate on paper. I think, the clarity (and controversy) of the article can be greatly improved once these two topics become separate.
Therefore, it would be a better idea to create a new heading along the line of "Amway, cult, and sale of motivational materials", by stating that Amway and the "motivational" stuff are separate entities, but are often intwined. Then discussions and their credibility can be fully disclosed.
P.S. - insider - what exactly is RS?
-- Bart weisser ( talk) 18:19, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Speaking from experience, I believe the Amway organization is not very transparent. Conversations with a number of my former associates, all of whom had some kind of involvement with Amway, became either ignorant or intentionally deceptive when confronted with such direct questions on Amway. This is also true with members of a number of MLM-type organizations that I have come across in the past.
I think you would agree with me that there is, indeed, a cult element within Amway. It is more important to examine the extent of such element, before such strong comments about credibility of information contrary to one's believe system (such as the ones you have been making) can be justified. This can be evaluated, at first hand, by comparing the sales volume of Amway products to those of the "Tools".
In an open source information such as Wikipedia, I think it is important to dispel these so-called "misconceptions" not by suppressing them, but by casting reasonable doubts instead.
-- Bart weisser ( talk) 21:34, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
What are these references you are talking about? Are they independently affiliated (i.e., not have anything to do with Amway)? I would like to take a look at some of these works.
Also, with regard to the "small group", I guess the main concern is that this particular group that we identify with Amway, are so vocal, that it *has* associated with Amway itself. Again, this is important, because I believe there are "honest" Amway reps (I have yet to see one), again, the organizational structure of Amway makes it close to impossible to see past the "motivational" aspect. -- Bart weisser ( talk) 22:21, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
What are the issues with Ross and CAIC? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:06, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
What's the "standard" for being listed here? There are literally thousands of media articles referring to Amway. Probably tens of thousands. -- Insider201283 ( talk) 22:05, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
All distributors are *not* downline of Ja-Ri. When they formed Amway they maintained Nutrilite Lines of Sponsorship, meaning their upline, Neil Maaskant remained their upline, and his group remained crossline to Ja-Ri. When Amway bought Nutrilite the Nutrilite lines also became crossline to Ja-Ri. -- Insider201283 ( talk) 20:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)