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I have expanded the article to make it more useful and I have changed POV comments. -- Ebz 09:26, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
This article has been kept following this VFD debate. Sjakkalle (Check!) 1 July 2005 10:59 (UTC)
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TFP is recognized broadly within the Catholic Church, especially those Catholic elements actually interested in the historical doctrine of the church. Its ideology is that of the actual historical ancient church, and not profane materialistic nihilistic self-ironic modernity. Leave it to the mocking Judeo-Trotskyite mob of wikipedians to distort everything beyond their own knowledge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.150.83.66 ( talk) 04:29, 09 September 2006 (UTC) |
Whoever edits this page - please at least TRY to be a little OBJECTIVE! When an article starts off quoting "ex-members" who verify "facts", it sounds like a biased agenda to start with. What person is ever objective about something/someone with which they have parted ways? And how serious is it when someone claims to speak on behalf of millions of Catholics around the world - whether for or against? The best practice for analysis is drawn from what an organization says about itself (without childishly using "claims" this or "claims" that to cast doubt on the most basic things). Just stick to the facts of what the organization IS, does, and says about itself, and be sure to get those right (the part on the Revolution indicated a poor understanding of basic details in RCR). I have attempted to clean it up a bit. As it was, it was an article against the organization rather than about it. Lastly - why include a large section about people (Tradition in Action) whose members may have at one time been associated but no longer have anything to do with the organization? Give them a completely separate space so they aren't confused with this organization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.241.14.24 ( talk • contribs) 21:59, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
The post on the Brazilian bishops "condemnation" is totally POV. In order to be balanced, you must include the public and vocal support of the TFP of many bishops, priests, and laymen from around the world. Cardinal Jorge Medina, who announced the election of Pope Benedict XVI, send a letter of support you can read here. [1]
The Brazilian TFP was attacked by the Brazilian Conference of Catholic Bishops because of the former's fight against communist and confiscatory land reform which was being encouraged by the government and the Bishops. The defense and propagation of liberation theology by the Brazilian Bishops, a Marxist-inspired interpretation of Scripture condemned by Pope John Paul II, and the corresponding opposition of the TFP, was also a factor. Their "report," in addition to being devoid of factual evidence, was completely irregular regarding the dictates and procedures of canon law when dealing with suspect organizations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jrb416 ( talk • contribs) 03:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Image:TFP Standard.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 06:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Image:Crusade Magazine Covers.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 13:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't this page just be called "Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property", the organisation operates internationally and the United States chapter is just one of many. The organisation itself is based in Brazil. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.247.166.29 ( talk) 23:52, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
An article about the Brazilian TFP was recently created at Tradição, Família e Propriedade. I dePRODed it, but I'm not sure what to do with it now. Tradition, Family and Property currently redirects here. I thinking we might use that for a general article about TFP internationally, while leaving this article about the US organization alone. Alternatively, we might try merging these articles. Any thoughts?-- Chris Johnson ( talk) 00:26, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
There is probably not enough material on Wikipedia yet about the separate national TFP movements to require having distinct articles on them, so IMHO it would be fine to rename this article and expand it to include info on Brazilian, etc., TFP. Chonak ( talk) 07:22, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was page moved. Skomorokh 10:12, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Tradition, Family and Property → American_Society_for_the_Defense_of_Tradition,_Family_and_Property — The article is about the American TFP, not the TFP movement. Another article should be created for that. This article is about the American TFP, which is an independent organization with its own statues, board of directors, president and officers, activities, goals, etc. It is not a "chapter" nor is it "based in Brazil." Name should be changed back to "American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property". Jrb416 ( talk) 16:37, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.I propose this article be taken off the list of New Religious Movements, for the simple reason that its fails to prove the TFP is a "new religion" or "cult". The definition of a "New Religious Movement" on Wikipedia itself is vague: "Scholars...continue to try to reach agreement on definitions and boundaries". What?
To be a "New Religious Movement", this article would have to provide references for at least part of the following criteria from the article:
"Generally, Christian denominations that are an accepted part of mainstream Christianity are not seen as new religious movements." Is the TFP not an accepted part of mainstream Christianity? Does the TFP dissent from the Catholic Church on Faith and Morals? Please provide references from their publications or activities.
I haven't found anything on their website to indicate this. If anyone finds references then we can keep it as it is. Otherwise, we should remove it.-- Jrb416 ( talk) 20:17, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
could this be classified as under the category of a Catholic lay society?-- 76.2.31.201 ( talk) 21:25, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
NEGATIVE: No official approval. In fact, they have some conflicts with some other real congregations/groups. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.133.27.104 ( talk) 22:54, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
This article (and related articles concerning the TFP movement) have been flagged for being based on web sites and other sources closely related to the subject. A previous editor defended this practice with the comment "The best practice for analysis is drawn from what an organization says about itself." This, however, violates Wikipedia policy that requires that "topics must be verifiable with independent, third-party sources." Wikipedia's verifiability policy further spells out that self published sources may be used for information about the subject itself, as long as these claims are not self-serving. but cannot make claims about third parties.
A recent edit changed a description of TFP's "protests against films and plays that it views as blasphemous" to "protests against blasphemous films and plays", thereby accepting the assertions of TFP and its sources as factual. I have reverted this edit, since no evidence has been presented that there is a general acceptance by independent reliable sources that these films and plays were, in fact, blasphemous. -- SteveMcCluskey ( talk) 16:35, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
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Under the heading "Criticism for virulence", it states "The American TFP has been cited in several article by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) for their anti-LGBTQ views. According to the SPLC the TFP is a “virulently anti-LGBT group." The SPLC is welcome to hold that view, but it makes no sense for this article to cite "Criticism for virulence". "Virulence" is an adjectival noun meaning to have the characteristics of a virus -- usually implying that it can overwhelm the defenses of the host. So it's nonsensical to criticize any group as "having virulence". I would suggest changing the heading to "Criticism for anti-LGBTQ activism/positions/whatever", since that is the thing the SPLC is objecting to, not its "virulence". Bricology ( talk) 03:22, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reasons for deletion at the file description pages linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 03:53, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
The paragraph talking about TFP Student Action specifies as their most recent activity events from 2009. Either that is not true, or we should be reporting on their demise. (The paragraph after that sources a claim about a school offering "traditional Catholic education" to the school itself; either we need a third-party source, or we need to cast it as being in the school's voice rather than ours.) -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 19:04, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I have expanded the article to make it more useful and I have changed POV comments. -- Ebz 09:26, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
This article has been kept following this VFD debate. Sjakkalle (Check!) 1 July 2005 10:59 (UTC)
Offensive |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
TFP is recognized broadly within the Catholic Church, especially those Catholic elements actually interested in the historical doctrine of the church. Its ideology is that of the actual historical ancient church, and not profane materialistic nihilistic self-ironic modernity. Leave it to the mocking Judeo-Trotskyite mob of wikipedians to distort everything beyond their own knowledge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.150.83.66 ( talk) 04:29, 09 September 2006 (UTC) |
Whoever edits this page - please at least TRY to be a little OBJECTIVE! When an article starts off quoting "ex-members" who verify "facts", it sounds like a biased agenda to start with. What person is ever objective about something/someone with which they have parted ways? And how serious is it when someone claims to speak on behalf of millions of Catholics around the world - whether for or against? The best practice for analysis is drawn from what an organization says about itself (without childishly using "claims" this or "claims" that to cast doubt on the most basic things). Just stick to the facts of what the organization IS, does, and says about itself, and be sure to get those right (the part on the Revolution indicated a poor understanding of basic details in RCR). I have attempted to clean it up a bit. As it was, it was an article against the organization rather than about it. Lastly - why include a large section about people (Tradition in Action) whose members may have at one time been associated but no longer have anything to do with the organization? Give them a completely separate space so they aren't confused with this organization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.241.14.24 ( talk • contribs) 21:59, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
The post on the Brazilian bishops "condemnation" is totally POV. In order to be balanced, you must include the public and vocal support of the TFP of many bishops, priests, and laymen from around the world. Cardinal Jorge Medina, who announced the election of Pope Benedict XVI, send a letter of support you can read here. [1]
The Brazilian TFP was attacked by the Brazilian Conference of Catholic Bishops because of the former's fight against communist and confiscatory land reform which was being encouraged by the government and the Bishops. The defense and propagation of liberation theology by the Brazilian Bishops, a Marxist-inspired interpretation of Scripture condemned by Pope John Paul II, and the corresponding opposition of the TFP, was also a factor. Their "report," in addition to being devoid of factual evidence, was completely irregular regarding the dictates and procedures of canon law when dealing with suspect organizations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jrb416 ( talk • contribs) 03:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Image:TFP Standard.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 06:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Image:Crusade Magazine Covers.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 13:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't this page just be called "Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property", the organisation operates internationally and the United States chapter is just one of many. The organisation itself is based in Brazil. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.247.166.29 ( talk) 23:52, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
An article about the Brazilian TFP was recently created at Tradição, Família e Propriedade. I dePRODed it, but I'm not sure what to do with it now. Tradition, Family and Property currently redirects here. I thinking we might use that for a general article about TFP internationally, while leaving this article about the US organization alone. Alternatively, we might try merging these articles. Any thoughts?-- Chris Johnson ( talk) 00:26, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
There is probably not enough material on Wikipedia yet about the separate national TFP movements to require having distinct articles on them, so IMHO it would be fine to rename this article and expand it to include info on Brazilian, etc., TFP. Chonak ( talk) 07:22, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was page moved. Skomorokh 10:12, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Tradition, Family and Property → American_Society_for_the_Defense_of_Tradition,_Family_and_Property — The article is about the American TFP, not the TFP movement. Another article should be created for that. This article is about the American TFP, which is an independent organization with its own statues, board of directors, president and officers, activities, goals, etc. It is not a "chapter" nor is it "based in Brazil." Name should be changed back to "American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property". Jrb416 ( talk) 16:37, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.I propose this article be taken off the list of New Religious Movements, for the simple reason that its fails to prove the TFP is a "new religion" or "cult". The definition of a "New Religious Movement" on Wikipedia itself is vague: "Scholars...continue to try to reach agreement on definitions and boundaries". What?
To be a "New Religious Movement", this article would have to provide references for at least part of the following criteria from the article:
"Generally, Christian denominations that are an accepted part of mainstream Christianity are not seen as new religious movements." Is the TFP not an accepted part of mainstream Christianity? Does the TFP dissent from the Catholic Church on Faith and Morals? Please provide references from their publications or activities.
I haven't found anything on their website to indicate this. If anyone finds references then we can keep it as it is. Otherwise, we should remove it.-- Jrb416 ( talk) 20:17, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
could this be classified as under the category of a Catholic lay society?-- 76.2.31.201 ( talk) 21:25, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
NEGATIVE: No official approval. In fact, they have some conflicts with some other real congregations/groups. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.133.27.104 ( talk) 22:54, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
This article (and related articles concerning the TFP movement) have been flagged for being based on web sites and other sources closely related to the subject. A previous editor defended this practice with the comment "The best practice for analysis is drawn from what an organization says about itself." This, however, violates Wikipedia policy that requires that "topics must be verifiable with independent, third-party sources." Wikipedia's verifiability policy further spells out that self published sources may be used for information about the subject itself, as long as these claims are not self-serving. but cannot make claims about third parties.
A recent edit changed a description of TFP's "protests against films and plays that it views as blasphemous" to "protests against blasphemous films and plays", thereby accepting the assertions of TFP and its sources as factual. I have reverted this edit, since no evidence has been presented that there is a general acceptance by independent reliable sources that these films and plays were, in fact, blasphemous. -- SteveMcCluskey ( talk) 16:35, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Under the heading "Criticism for virulence", it states "The American TFP has been cited in several article by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) for their anti-LGBTQ views. According to the SPLC the TFP is a “virulently anti-LGBT group." The SPLC is welcome to hold that view, but it makes no sense for this article to cite "Criticism for virulence". "Virulence" is an adjectival noun meaning to have the characteristics of a virus -- usually implying that it can overwhelm the defenses of the host. So it's nonsensical to criticize any group as "having virulence". I would suggest changing the heading to "Criticism for anti-LGBTQ activism/positions/whatever", since that is the thing the SPLC is objecting to, not its "virulence". Bricology ( talk) 03:22, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reasons for deletion at the file description pages linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 03:53, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
The paragraph talking about TFP Student Action specifies as their most recent activity events from 2009. Either that is not true, or we should be reporting on their demise. (The paragraph after that sources a claim about a school offering "traditional Catholic education" to the school itself; either we need a third-party source, or we need to cast it as being in the school's voice rather than ours.) -- Nat Gertler ( talk) 19:04, 10 December 2023 (UTC)