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There is currently a discussion going on at Talk:Indian Rebellion of 1857/Archive 2#Indian patriots? of the use of the phrase "Indian patriots" which was put into the text after some editors objected to the word "freedom fighters" because as it says in the Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Extremist, terrorist and freedom fighter. "Extremism and terrorism are pejorative terms. They are words with intrinsically negative connotations that are generally applied to one's enemies and opponents, or to those with whom one disagrees and whose opinions and actions one would prefer to ignore. Use of the terms "extremist", "terrorist" and "Freedom fighter" implies a moral judgment; and if one party can successfully attach the label to a group, then it has indirectly persuaded others to adopt its moral viewpoint."
Does the phrase "American Patriots" carry the same connotation as "freedom fighter"? For example should the phrase "British patriots" be added to the info box to present a neutral POV? It seems to me that the phrase "American colonial rebels" could be used in place of "American Patriots" and it would be no less an accurate POV. I am not suggesting that such a provocative label is used, but if American patriot is to be used in this article then it is likely to occur in all the war of independence articles in place of Freedom fighter unless there is a specific reason for using it in this one. -- Philip Baird Shearer 13:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
"The need to retain Loyalist allegiance also meant that the British were unable to use the harsh methods of suppressing rebellion they employed in Ireland and Scotland. Even with these limitations, many potentially neutral colonists were nonetheless driven into the ranks of the Revolutionaries because of the war.[23]" What harsh methods were employed in ireland and scotland, and why were they ineffective in the US? Is it because there was a ruling class set up in ireland/scotland? Edg126 18:18, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
The infobox states that King George III was a British military commander. That can't be right . . . right? Funnyhat 04:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Can someone write article aboun hessian mercenaries during The American Revolutionary War?-- Vojvodaen 14:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
states that they were not mercenaries but conscripted soldiers sent by various states of Germany as well as the Kings own subjects from Hanover (the majority coming from Hesse hence the name).
Should the two articles not be made consistent, i.e. they are either mercenaries in both articles or not in both, at the same time in regards to the flag of Hesse in the combatants section, should the other states they came from also be shown via flags or a flag for the German contigent just omitted? -- EnigmaMcmxc 12:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
There was no german Empire (the Empire was \spain), and you didn`t say French Empire or English Empire, so this is the same case, the Spanish support came from Spain (of course, from all the provinces), but from Spain (and the debt generated by the arms and cannons bought to give to the rebels was in Spain, and it remain in Spain), and the support was the support of Spain.
SPQR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.1.60.111 ( talk) 20:50, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
In order to uphold the quality of
Wikipedia:Good articles, all articles listed as Good articles are being reviewed against the requirements of the
GA criteria as part of the
GA project quality task force. Unfortunately, as of
October 8,
2007, this article fails to satisfy the criteria, as detailed below. For that reason, the article has been delisted from
WP:GA. However, if improvements are made bringing the article up to standards, the article may be nominated at
WP:GAN. If you feel this decision has been made in error, you may seek remediation at
WP:GA/R. The article was given GA status back in 2005 without a review and since then the GA criteria has changed significantly. Although the article currently has a good number of inline citations, several sections throughout the article are lacking sources. Go through the article and add an inline citation for any statement that a reader may question over its verifiability. If you can find sources online, feel free to include those, although book sources are always great, which this article uses a lot of. Due to the length of the article, the lead should also be expanded to three or four paragraphs to better summarize the article. For more information, see
WP:LEAD. However, the rest of the article looks fine considering meeting the broad, NPOV, and image requirements. Again, if you address these issues and check the article against the rest of the GA criteria, consider renominating the article at WP:GAN and let me know and I'll look it over again (so you can avoid the current month+ backlog). If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have updated the article's history to reflect this review. Regards, --
Nehrams2020
19:32, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I've added that to the to-do list, it badly needs it-- Victor falk 00:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
The American Revolutionary War pages describe in several places the war beginning in 1775, but on February 17, 1908, the United States Senate passed Bill Number 160 declaring the Battle of Point Pleasant the first battle of the American Revolutionary War. The Battle of Point Pleasant took place on Oct. 10, 1774 and since this has been made official U.S. historical fact by the Senate, this fact should not be overlooked, omitted, nor neglected in the ARW pages. Consistenthistory 20:32, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I cut the last paragraph from the introduction, and bring this here for discussion:
The tone of this whole paragraph is highly speculative and sounds like original research. Who, for example, are these "people" who are "beginning to describe the American Revolution... as a civil war"? The two fact tags with this has been affixed are an indication that I am not the only one who finds this problematic. My personal feeling is that there should never be any fact tags in the introduction to an article. Any assertion that is not referenced should be cut. Any thoughts on this matter? --- RepublicanJacobite The'FortyFive' 23:59, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
The table to the side has a section of military commanders. the section is missing Benidict Arnold who was a major player in the war and a Commander for the U.S. and was appointed to Brigadier General by the British for his treachery. he should be mentioned there, perhaps a key should be formed to show that he was a traitor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.200.173.251 ( talk) 00:09, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
At the school I wrote an article about the British Empire. When the text was returned to us, the word:"American Revolutionary War" was marked with a red colour(wrong). My English teacher told me later that the war from 1775-1783 was called "the War of independence" not the "American Revolutionary War"
Why is the Title of this article " American Revolutionary War" and not “War of independence”? --?. The great Darren shan fan 13:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
(I am not from an english speaking country) wrongs may occure in this question! If u find some, plese report back to me I want to learn from my wrongs.
Because it's part of american mythology to believe they launched a Revolution against oppression and weren't simply an independence movement. I'm not saying it wasn't a true revolution, but it does imply some POV. Theamazingzeno ( talk) 21:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I wonder if it isn't time to archive this page and start afresh. Maybe the experienced could ouline some objectives for this quarter with a list of articles that need some cleanup. Just a thought.-- THE FOUNDERS INTENT TALK 03:51, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Prison Ship Martyrs' Monument says 11,500 dead. The article here says:
"An estimated 25,000 American Revolutionaries died during active military service. About 8,000 of these deaths were in battle; the other 17,000 deaths were from disease, including about 8,000 who died while prisoners of war."
I don't know what is right. I am just pointing out the discrepancy. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 22:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Meanwhile, Native Americans and African Americans served on both sides.
Just questioning the relevance of this statement in the opening paragraph - While true, the statement does not really flow with the intended overall point of the opening paragraph. Perhaps it would be better suited in the Historical Assessment area?
JHM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.124.104.190 ( talk) 12:33, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The article has a problem of American nationalism woven in it from start (the title) to end. A way to help end this thread would be to include a section or at least a paragraph near the beginning of this article explaining that the population of the 13 colonies were not universally on the side of the patriots/rebels. It needs to explain that some were ardent one way or another and that others were neutral (or just wanted a quiet life). At the moment the way this article is written is that it was us Americans against those Brits with no implication that it was also a civil war within the colonies.
At the moment without such a paragraph the article has a bias. I could go through the article and highlight what I perceive to be an American nationalist bias, but I will just highlight a couple near the start. In the lead the article implies it was all colonists were in favour of independence eg: "The war was the culmination of the political American Revolution, whereby the colonists " instead of "colonies" and another example in the first section "When the war began, the British Colonists ("Americans") did not have a professional army or navy. ... the Americans were particularly effective at suppressing Loyalist activity when British regulars were not in the area." The definition supplied for Americans is "British Colonists" so what were the Loyalists if not Americans? -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 12:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Describing the war as a civil war within the British Empire needs further explanation because by that logic so were " The Fifteen", " The Forty-Five" and the Anglo Irish War although few would describe them as such. The section "Historical assessment" very badly needs to cite sources. Facts are easy to find in many text books and almanacs, but analysis is not and is laden with points of view, so this section more than most needs citations.
Not only that the the wording of this section is confusing for example " but in their own way, two different nations or factions" what does that mean? English Cavaliers and Roundheads were not from different nations so presumably we are talking about Americans and Britons, or are we? It is not clear. It would also be a good move to replace phrases like "One could argue" with "Smith has argued" (substitute Smith with a scholar's name) and a citation at the end of the sentence otherwise it looks like " original research-- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 12:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
There has been considerable vandalism on battles, with battles being altered to American victories when they clearly aren't such as Harlem Heights or White Plains, one which was a draw and the second being a British tactical victory. Therefore, I propose that all pages on the American Revolutionary War be semi-protected. ( Trip Johnson ( talk) 20:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC))
I can't find the part of WP:MILHIST that says that flags should not be included in the military conflict infobox. Could someone point me in the right direction, and/or explain the reasoning behind the decision. It seems to me that the flags can only add to the clarity of the infobox. -- Nidator T / C 17:03, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
A certain wiki-goer is editing battles using myrevolutionarywar.com, which in my opinion, is a very unreliable source, as much of it is copied and / or edited information from Wikipedia. Urgent article re-writes are required ( Trip Johnson ( talk) 19:45, 13 April 2008 (UTC))
I believe britishbattles.com is a very unreliable source. ( Red4tribe ( talk) 20:34, 14 April 2008 (UTC))
Trip, it is no secret that you are not fond of Ameirica. I have looked back at you last 500 edits and you have made ridiculous claims such as the war of 1812 was a British Victory(but lets not get into that now, and personally, I have nothing againstthe UK or bias for the US so lets not get into that either). You have also been stalking me, changing most recent edits I have made. British battles is a British site, clearly written by someone favoring the British and giving the best possible benifiet. I havecompared it up with many sites(such as my revolutionary war and many others, I do not know if they are American or not) and it constantly comes up as giving the British the better look on things.Why is it that every time I list a reference, from anywhere, it is clearly(in your opinion) a biased American site but when you list a British site is gives a perfectly good view on things? If you wish me for to give you the links to the other sites, just ask. Where is your evidence that they copy off of wikipedia? I would like to see that. ( Red4tribe ( talk) 21:46, 14 April 2008 (UTC))
Lets look at it this way. If Wales secceded from England and Scottland and France and Wals both declared war on England. Obviously this will not happen but lets just say it does. The English invasion of Wales goes horribly wrong, the French come and burn the center of London, but then are defeated at the Battle of Livepool. Both sides make peaace and things return to as they were before. That is what happened in The War of 1812 just in a different location. Neither side is victorious. If you give me some evidence as to houw myrevolutionarywar copies form wikipedia, prehaps it could be diposed as a reliable reference. But you have yet to give that to me and I have not noticed anything. I will say, I was very surprised by the high loss totals in Brandwyine, I did not believe it was that high originally myself, but I would like evidence to dipose of it. I do not mean to say that British Battles is not reliable for anything, I just feel it favors to the British side it casulty lists, outcome of battles, etc. ( Red4tribe ( talk) 01:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC))
'The Americans—under Generals George Washington, Nathanael Greene, and Israel Putnam, totaling around 2,000 men—held a series of high ground positions in upper Manhattan against an attacking British division totaling around 5,000 men under the command of General Alexander Leslie. British troops made what became a tactical error by sounding a fox hunt bugle call while in pursuit, meant to insult the Continentals, who were in orderly retreat. This instead infuriated the Americans who galvanized to hold their ground and rallied for victory (though the battle is taken as a draw).'.
If you look back through my previous edits for the Battle of Harlem Heights, there is a statement that is almost, if not, identical to that. It has been slightly altered, but the statement there now is virtually the same:
The Americans—under Generals George Washington, Nathanael Greene, and Israel Putnam, totaling around 2,000 men—held a series of high ground positions in upper Manhattan against an attacking British division totaling around 5,000 men under the command of General Alexander Leslie. British troops made what became a tactical error by sounding a fox hunt bugle call while in pursuit, meant to insult the Continentals, who were in orderly retreat. This instead infuriated the Americans who galvanized to hold their ground.
The statement, (though the battle is taken as a draw) was put on Wikipedia by me, which is why I was surprised to find the same opening statement, along with my edit on myrevolutionarywar.com
( Trip Johnson ( talk) 11:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC))
Myrevolutionarywar for Harlem Heights was created in 1999(even before wikipedia was started). The page on wikipedia for Halrem Heights 2004. So, what probably happened was that whoever wrote the fox hunt on wiki copied and slightly edited it from myrevolutionarywar. ( Red4tribe ( talk) 15:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC))
I looked back on your previous edits on the battle of harlem heights. You did not write that whole paragraph. You merely changed the last few words of the paragraph to "The battle however, ended Indecisively. " It was probably changed to its current ending by you or someone else later that week. Previous to this edit you made, you had only made 1 edit and that was to undo my1st change to the result to an American Victory. Thus, my original reasoning stands(and it is a reliable reference). Whoever originally wrote that paragraph copied, and changeda few words from the myrevolutionarywar website. It is the oppisite of what you have said. Here is the link to your change http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Battle_of_Harlem_Heights&diff=202370128&oldid=202370022( Red4tribe ( talk) 19:58, 15 April 2008 (UTC))
I have looked back at previous pages of the battle of Harlem Heights on google and it has been there since the pagewas written, in 1999. 5 years before the battle of Harlem Heights was even created on here. Trip, do not start lying. Just because you don't believe a few things myrevolutinoary war says doesn't mean you need to go around making up stories about it. Clearly someone who originally made the article copied from myrevolutionarywar. (
Red4tribe (
talk)
12:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC))
Accuse you of lying? How can I not? You have blatantly lied to me about “your paragraph”. First you claim you wrote the paragraph. Then you claim you changed the last few words of it. You did neither. That paragraph has been on myrevolutionarywar since 1999, 5 years before the Wikipedia article on Harlem Heights was even created. My “bumming buddy” is correct in saying that you think you run Wikipedia, because you do. I am not the only person you have gotten into arguments with; it isn’t just some big coincidence. I would love to hear how myrevolutionarywar copied off of Wikipedia, they must have created some time machine. ( Red4tribe ( talk) 20:08, 16 April 2008 (UTC))
This isn't an offical warning... yet. I'm going to suggest that you two knock this off now. Both of you need to get real history books, not go to the web, and read them slowly and carefully. There are many articles in wiki that are contraversial to say the least. In my time here as an editor I've found one of the single most useless wastes of time is arguing who won. I've seen it in battles as stupid as Borodino to wars like 1812 where who won is a matter of conjecture. If you have a side at all in these battles and wars its probably best not to edit at all but if you do you had best be citing everything you do to a couple of very reliable sources. If you can't do that then just don't edit at all. If I get the impression that there is edit warring going on the admins will be getting involved, nuff said. Tirronan ( talk) 22:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you tirronan for your post. I'll behave if the other user simply let my vote against his version stay put and stop erasing it. I'm glad to see admin get involved. Good work. I'll stop my little game since I see you guys are on your game. ( Plains2007 ( talk) 23:00, 16 April 2008 (UTC))
I would love to see an admin involved. Prehaps Trips, it will interest you to know that when Harlem Heights was originally written, it was listed as an American Victory, until someone changed it. And to add onto that I listed 5 references, all which you threw away as "unreliable". Clearly it did not matter to you that 3 others agreed with me while none with you. As for the battle of white marsh, what is the point of having 15 words summeriaze a battle ,it is much more reasonable to leave it as an American Victory, because it was. It seems two others have alos undone your edits on that page. Also, for White Plains I added a reference that listed it as an American Victory you probably completley ignored it)but it was still changed. You said that you put " and rallied for victory (though the battle is taken as a draw)" on there? You did not. it was there before you did any editing. You changed that to "The battle however, ended Indecisively". The last thing I would like to know, is how is myrevolutionarywar unreliable is it didn't copy off of wikipedia? ( Red4tribe ( talk) 23:08, 16 April 2008 (UTC))
Sure. I'll drop it. Just answer my questions first. You have no reference for White Marsh or any other battle I am reverting. I have added references. ( Red4tribe ( talk) 00:05, 17 April 2008 (UTC))
Not clear if the matter is dead and over, but I'm assuming that the makers of myrevolutionarywar.com are the same as mywarof1812. In the effort of full disclosure, I've not gone to myrevolutionarywar, but I have gone to its sister 1812 website frequently and I can vouch that its material is deeply inaccurate. I'd say that if the 1812 site is any indicator of the quality of the material for the website duo, it would be best to not use either. Auror ( talk) 00:04, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
myrevolutionarywar.com is actually quite accurate and it is unfortunate that it's name continues to be slandered. To claim that White Plains was a draw or win for the British is an outright and unfounded lie.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
There is currently a discussion going on at Talk:Indian Rebellion of 1857/Archive 2#Indian patriots? of the use of the phrase "Indian patriots" which was put into the text after some editors objected to the word "freedom fighters" because as it says in the Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Extremist, terrorist and freedom fighter. "Extremism and terrorism are pejorative terms. They are words with intrinsically negative connotations that are generally applied to one's enemies and opponents, or to those with whom one disagrees and whose opinions and actions one would prefer to ignore. Use of the terms "extremist", "terrorist" and "Freedom fighter" implies a moral judgment; and if one party can successfully attach the label to a group, then it has indirectly persuaded others to adopt its moral viewpoint."
Does the phrase "American Patriots" carry the same connotation as "freedom fighter"? For example should the phrase "British patriots" be added to the info box to present a neutral POV? It seems to me that the phrase "American colonial rebels" could be used in place of "American Patriots" and it would be no less an accurate POV. I am not suggesting that such a provocative label is used, but if American patriot is to be used in this article then it is likely to occur in all the war of independence articles in place of Freedom fighter unless there is a specific reason for using it in this one. -- Philip Baird Shearer 13:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
"The need to retain Loyalist allegiance also meant that the British were unable to use the harsh methods of suppressing rebellion they employed in Ireland and Scotland. Even with these limitations, many potentially neutral colonists were nonetheless driven into the ranks of the Revolutionaries because of the war.[23]" What harsh methods were employed in ireland and scotland, and why were they ineffective in the US? Is it because there was a ruling class set up in ireland/scotland? Edg126 18:18, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
The infobox states that King George III was a British military commander. That can't be right . . . right? Funnyhat 04:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Can someone write article aboun hessian mercenaries during The American Revolutionary War?-- Vojvodaen 14:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
states that they were not mercenaries but conscripted soldiers sent by various states of Germany as well as the Kings own subjects from Hanover (the majority coming from Hesse hence the name).
Should the two articles not be made consistent, i.e. they are either mercenaries in both articles or not in both, at the same time in regards to the flag of Hesse in the combatants section, should the other states they came from also be shown via flags or a flag for the German contigent just omitted? -- EnigmaMcmxc 12:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
There was no german Empire (the Empire was \spain), and you didn`t say French Empire or English Empire, so this is the same case, the Spanish support came from Spain (of course, from all the provinces), but from Spain (and the debt generated by the arms and cannons bought to give to the rebels was in Spain, and it remain in Spain), and the support was the support of Spain.
SPQR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.1.60.111 ( talk) 20:50, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
In order to uphold the quality of
Wikipedia:Good articles, all articles listed as Good articles are being reviewed against the requirements of the
GA criteria as part of the
GA project quality task force. Unfortunately, as of
October 8,
2007, this article fails to satisfy the criteria, as detailed below. For that reason, the article has been delisted from
WP:GA. However, if improvements are made bringing the article up to standards, the article may be nominated at
WP:GAN. If you feel this decision has been made in error, you may seek remediation at
WP:GA/R. The article was given GA status back in 2005 without a review and since then the GA criteria has changed significantly. Although the article currently has a good number of inline citations, several sections throughout the article are lacking sources. Go through the article and add an inline citation for any statement that a reader may question over its verifiability. If you can find sources online, feel free to include those, although book sources are always great, which this article uses a lot of. Due to the length of the article, the lead should also be expanded to three or four paragraphs to better summarize the article. For more information, see
WP:LEAD. However, the rest of the article looks fine considering meeting the broad, NPOV, and image requirements. Again, if you address these issues and check the article against the rest of the GA criteria, consider renominating the article at WP:GAN and let me know and I'll look it over again (so you can avoid the current month+ backlog). If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have updated the article's history to reflect this review. Regards, --
Nehrams2020
19:32, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I've added that to the to-do list, it badly needs it-- Victor falk 00:24, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
The American Revolutionary War pages describe in several places the war beginning in 1775, but on February 17, 1908, the United States Senate passed Bill Number 160 declaring the Battle of Point Pleasant the first battle of the American Revolutionary War. The Battle of Point Pleasant took place on Oct. 10, 1774 and since this has been made official U.S. historical fact by the Senate, this fact should not be overlooked, omitted, nor neglected in the ARW pages. Consistenthistory 20:32, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I cut the last paragraph from the introduction, and bring this here for discussion:
The tone of this whole paragraph is highly speculative and sounds like original research. Who, for example, are these "people" who are "beginning to describe the American Revolution... as a civil war"? The two fact tags with this has been affixed are an indication that I am not the only one who finds this problematic. My personal feeling is that there should never be any fact tags in the introduction to an article. Any assertion that is not referenced should be cut. Any thoughts on this matter? --- RepublicanJacobite The'FortyFive' 23:59, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
The table to the side has a section of military commanders. the section is missing Benidict Arnold who was a major player in the war and a Commander for the U.S. and was appointed to Brigadier General by the British for his treachery. he should be mentioned there, perhaps a key should be formed to show that he was a traitor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.200.173.251 ( talk) 00:09, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
At the school I wrote an article about the British Empire. When the text was returned to us, the word:"American Revolutionary War" was marked with a red colour(wrong). My English teacher told me later that the war from 1775-1783 was called "the War of independence" not the "American Revolutionary War"
Why is the Title of this article " American Revolutionary War" and not “War of independence”? --?. The great Darren shan fan 13:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
(I am not from an english speaking country) wrongs may occure in this question! If u find some, plese report back to me I want to learn from my wrongs.
Because it's part of american mythology to believe they launched a Revolution against oppression and weren't simply an independence movement. I'm not saying it wasn't a true revolution, but it does imply some POV. Theamazingzeno ( talk) 21:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I wonder if it isn't time to archive this page and start afresh. Maybe the experienced could ouline some objectives for this quarter with a list of articles that need some cleanup. Just a thought.-- THE FOUNDERS INTENT TALK 03:51, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Prison Ship Martyrs' Monument says 11,500 dead. The article here says:
"An estimated 25,000 American Revolutionaries died during active military service. About 8,000 of these deaths were in battle; the other 17,000 deaths were from disease, including about 8,000 who died while prisoners of war."
I don't know what is right. I am just pointing out the discrepancy. -- Timeshifter ( talk) 22:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Meanwhile, Native Americans and African Americans served on both sides.
Just questioning the relevance of this statement in the opening paragraph - While true, the statement does not really flow with the intended overall point of the opening paragraph. Perhaps it would be better suited in the Historical Assessment area?
JHM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.124.104.190 ( talk) 12:33, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The article has a problem of American nationalism woven in it from start (the title) to end. A way to help end this thread would be to include a section or at least a paragraph near the beginning of this article explaining that the population of the 13 colonies were not universally on the side of the patriots/rebels. It needs to explain that some were ardent one way or another and that others were neutral (or just wanted a quiet life). At the moment the way this article is written is that it was us Americans against those Brits with no implication that it was also a civil war within the colonies.
At the moment without such a paragraph the article has a bias. I could go through the article and highlight what I perceive to be an American nationalist bias, but I will just highlight a couple near the start. In the lead the article implies it was all colonists were in favour of independence eg: "The war was the culmination of the political American Revolution, whereby the colonists " instead of "colonies" and another example in the first section "When the war began, the British Colonists ("Americans") did not have a professional army or navy. ... the Americans were particularly effective at suppressing Loyalist activity when British regulars were not in the area." The definition supplied for Americans is "British Colonists" so what were the Loyalists if not Americans? -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 12:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Describing the war as a civil war within the British Empire needs further explanation because by that logic so were " The Fifteen", " The Forty-Five" and the Anglo Irish War although few would describe them as such. The section "Historical assessment" very badly needs to cite sources. Facts are easy to find in many text books and almanacs, but analysis is not and is laden with points of view, so this section more than most needs citations.
Not only that the the wording of this section is confusing for example " but in their own way, two different nations or factions" what does that mean? English Cavaliers and Roundheads were not from different nations so presumably we are talking about Americans and Britons, or are we? It is not clear. It would also be a good move to replace phrases like "One could argue" with "Smith has argued" (substitute Smith with a scholar's name) and a citation at the end of the sentence otherwise it looks like " original research-- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 12:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
There has been considerable vandalism on battles, with battles being altered to American victories when they clearly aren't such as Harlem Heights or White Plains, one which was a draw and the second being a British tactical victory. Therefore, I propose that all pages on the American Revolutionary War be semi-protected. ( Trip Johnson ( talk) 20:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC))
I can't find the part of WP:MILHIST that says that flags should not be included in the military conflict infobox. Could someone point me in the right direction, and/or explain the reasoning behind the decision. It seems to me that the flags can only add to the clarity of the infobox. -- Nidator T / C 17:03, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
A certain wiki-goer is editing battles using myrevolutionarywar.com, which in my opinion, is a very unreliable source, as much of it is copied and / or edited information from Wikipedia. Urgent article re-writes are required ( Trip Johnson ( talk) 19:45, 13 April 2008 (UTC))
I believe britishbattles.com is a very unreliable source. ( Red4tribe ( talk) 20:34, 14 April 2008 (UTC))
Trip, it is no secret that you are not fond of Ameirica. I have looked back at you last 500 edits and you have made ridiculous claims such as the war of 1812 was a British Victory(but lets not get into that now, and personally, I have nothing againstthe UK or bias for the US so lets not get into that either). You have also been stalking me, changing most recent edits I have made. British battles is a British site, clearly written by someone favoring the British and giving the best possible benifiet. I havecompared it up with many sites(such as my revolutionary war and many others, I do not know if they are American or not) and it constantly comes up as giving the British the better look on things.Why is it that every time I list a reference, from anywhere, it is clearly(in your opinion) a biased American site but when you list a British site is gives a perfectly good view on things? If you wish me for to give you the links to the other sites, just ask. Where is your evidence that they copy off of wikipedia? I would like to see that. ( Red4tribe ( talk) 21:46, 14 April 2008 (UTC))
Lets look at it this way. If Wales secceded from England and Scottland and France and Wals both declared war on England. Obviously this will not happen but lets just say it does. The English invasion of Wales goes horribly wrong, the French come and burn the center of London, but then are defeated at the Battle of Livepool. Both sides make peaace and things return to as they were before. That is what happened in The War of 1812 just in a different location. Neither side is victorious. If you give me some evidence as to houw myrevolutionarywar copies form wikipedia, prehaps it could be diposed as a reliable reference. But you have yet to give that to me and I have not noticed anything. I will say, I was very surprised by the high loss totals in Brandwyine, I did not believe it was that high originally myself, but I would like evidence to dipose of it. I do not mean to say that British Battles is not reliable for anything, I just feel it favors to the British side it casulty lists, outcome of battles, etc. ( Red4tribe ( talk) 01:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC))
'The Americans—under Generals George Washington, Nathanael Greene, and Israel Putnam, totaling around 2,000 men—held a series of high ground positions in upper Manhattan against an attacking British division totaling around 5,000 men under the command of General Alexander Leslie. British troops made what became a tactical error by sounding a fox hunt bugle call while in pursuit, meant to insult the Continentals, who were in orderly retreat. This instead infuriated the Americans who galvanized to hold their ground and rallied for victory (though the battle is taken as a draw).'.
If you look back through my previous edits for the Battle of Harlem Heights, there is a statement that is almost, if not, identical to that. It has been slightly altered, but the statement there now is virtually the same:
The Americans—under Generals George Washington, Nathanael Greene, and Israel Putnam, totaling around 2,000 men—held a series of high ground positions in upper Manhattan against an attacking British division totaling around 5,000 men under the command of General Alexander Leslie. British troops made what became a tactical error by sounding a fox hunt bugle call while in pursuit, meant to insult the Continentals, who were in orderly retreat. This instead infuriated the Americans who galvanized to hold their ground.
The statement, (though the battle is taken as a draw) was put on Wikipedia by me, which is why I was surprised to find the same opening statement, along with my edit on myrevolutionarywar.com
( Trip Johnson ( talk) 11:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC))
Myrevolutionarywar for Harlem Heights was created in 1999(even before wikipedia was started). The page on wikipedia for Halrem Heights 2004. So, what probably happened was that whoever wrote the fox hunt on wiki copied and slightly edited it from myrevolutionarywar. ( Red4tribe ( talk) 15:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC))
I looked back on your previous edits on the battle of harlem heights. You did not write that whole paragraph. You merely changed the last few words of the paragraph to "The battle however, ended Indecisively. " It was probably changed to its current ending by you or someone else later that week. Previous to this edit you made, you had only made 1 edit and that was to undo my1st change to the result to an American Victory. Thus, my original reasoning stands(and it is a reliable reference). Whoever originally wrote that paragraph copied, and changeda few words from the myrevolutionarywar website. It is the oppisite of what you have said. Here is the link to your change http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Battle_of_Harlem_Heights&diff=202370128&oldid=202370022( Red4tribe ( talk) 19:58, 15 April 2008 (UTC))
I have looked back at previous pages of the battle of Harlem Heights on google and it has been there since the pagewas written, in 1999. 5 years before the battle of Harlem Heights was even created on here. Trip, do not start lying. Just because you don't believe a few things myrevolutinoary war says doesn't mean you need to go around making up stories about it. Clearly someone who originally made the article copied from myrevolutionarywar. (
Red4tribe (
talk)
12:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC))
Accuse you of lying? How can I not? You have blatantly lied to me about “your paragraph”. First you claim you wrote the paragraph. Then you claim you changed the last few words of it. You did neither. That paragraph has been on myrevolutionarywar since 1999, 5 years before the Wikipedia article on Harlem Heights was even created. My “bumming buddy” is correct in saying that you think you run Wikipedia, because you do. I am not the only person you have gotten into arguments with; it isn’t just some big coincidence. I would love to hear how myrevolutionarywar copied off of Wikipedia, they must have created some time machine. ( Red4tribe ( talk) 20:08, 16 April 2008 (UTC))
This isn't an offical warning... yet. I'm going to suggest that you two knock this off now. Both of you need to get real history books, not go to the web, and read them slowly and carefully. There are many articles in wiki that are contraversial to say the least. In my time here as an editor I've found one of the single most useless wastes of time is arguing who won. I've seen it in battles as stupid as Borodino to wars like 1812 where who won is a matter of conjecture. If you have a side at all in these battles and wars its probably best not to edit at all but if you do you had best be citing everything you do to a couple of very reliable sources. If you can't do that then just don't edit at all. If I get the impression that there is edit warring going on the admins will be getting involved, nuff said. Tirronan ( talk) 22:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you tirronan for your post. I'll behave if the other user simply let my vote against his version stay put and stop erasing it. I'm glad to see admin get involved. Good work. I'll stop my little game since I see you guys are on your game. ( Plains2007 ( talk) 23:00, 16 April 2008 (UTC))
I would love to see an admin involved. Prehaps Trips, it will interest you to know that when Harlem Heights was originally written, it was listed as an American Victory, until someone changed it. And to add onto that I listed 5 references, all which you threw away as "unreliable". Clearly it did not matter to you that 3 others agreed with me while none with you. As for the battle of white marsh, what is the point of having 15 words summeriaze a battle ,it is much more reasonable to leave it as an American Victory, because it was. It seems two others have alos undone your edits on that page. Also, for White Plains I added a reference that listed it as an American Victory you probably completley ignored it)but it was still changed. You said that you put " and rallied for victory (though the battle is taken as a draw)" on there? You did not. it was there before you did any editing. You changed that to "The battle however, ended Indecisively". The last thing I would like to know, is how is myrevolutionarywar unreliable is it didn't copy off of wikipedia? ( Red4tribe ( talk) 23:08, 16 April 2008 (UTC))
Sure. I'll drop it. Just answer my questions first. You have no reference for White Marsh or any other battle I am reverting. I have added references. ( Red4tribe ( talk) 00:05, 17 April 2008 (UTC))
Not clear if the matter is dead and over, but I'm assuming that the makers of myrevolutionarywar.com are the same as mywarof1812. In the effort of full disclosure, I've not gone to myrevolutionarywar, but I have gone to its sister 1812 website frequently and I can vouch that its material is deeply inaccurate. I'd say that if the 1812 site is any indicator of the quality of the material for the website duo, it would be best to not use either. Auror ( talk) 00:04, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
myrevolutionarywar.com is actually quite accurate and it is unfortunate that it's name continues to be slandered. To claim that White Plains was a draw or win for the British is an outright and unfounded lie.