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Thhis is currently a redirect page, to the war, but it shouldn't stay that way. This note is intended to make Wikipeians aware of what I intend and to make a request.
Please" If you have an article that should reference the revutionary war, do so. But, if you should logically refernce the revolution, then go ahead and write [[American Revolution]] rather than [[Revolution|American Revolutionary War]].
That way when there is an article here, the references will sort themselves out.
Outline of Proposed Article:
Now re-read the request at the top,, Thanks... Lou I 00:14 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)
If you don't like it, then you add information. These are different topics, one discusses a military campaign; the other discusses the socio-political differences which led to the war. Lirath Q. Pynnor
I redirected it again. If you want it to be an article Lir then please write one. And make sure you prove that this is a separate topic. Rmhermen 21:54, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)
I have gone through about 90 of the almost 250 links to this article and redirected about 60% of them to American Revolutionary War as they refered to military not political matters. Anyone want to help sort? Rmhermen 16:37, Nov 18, 2003 (UTC)
I still believe the outline at the top of the page is valid, but have hesitated to address the article. I agree we need the sorting you refer to but prefer to wait till this article is much better. I've been away for a while, and am still working around the edges of the main space. We need battles and campaigns improved, various events and biographies, more on the Continental Congress, various state and colonial histories, etc. My hesitation in working on this article is that it should tie all these pieces together. Sorry for the delay, and wishing for help from any interested Wikipedians. .... Thanks, Lou I 18:33, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I think the outline is a good idea.
Alexandros 19:14, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)
This is a kind of status update. I've already altered the outline proposed above, but I have completed what I think of as broad origins and created a stub-like paragraph for the immediate causes. We could use an article specific to the American Enlightnment, as well as improvement and expansion in the Great Awakening and the Enlightnent articles. My main efforts are still concentrated on biograpohies and the Revolutionary War, so feel free to expand this article. Thanks for your patience, Lou I 20:50, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
An anonymous user inserted a reference to the Renaissance into this section. Rmherman reverted it, and I agree with his action. But, one element in the addition was a reference to Gottfried Leibniz. Leibniz may deserve a reference here. His Essays on Understanding was in Jefferson's library, and was undoubtedly read by others of the founders. I just wanted to record this note for future updating. Lou I 16:33, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
I compare the origins of the American Revolutionary War and the Civil War to the Cold War; Every series of events that lead to every war should be considered as cold wars. - John Edward Alexander V--Ed Telerionus 20:51, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Here's the text I removed from this section, with explanations:
European Dynastic Wars, as experienced in the French and Indian Wars, raised several important ideas among the North American colonist.
One of these was the importance of self-reliance for their own defense, and a recognition that the European military establishments were less effective when applied on a continental scale. The Albany Congress taught them the value of cooperation between otherwise divergent colonies. Armies and techniques that might protect Great Britain, France, or the Netherlands could not be extended over thinly populated North America.
Another result was a rising sense of frustration, when victories earned in part by their blood and wealth were negotiated away for a gain in Asia or the Caribbean.
At the same time, political changes in Britain, itself, brought to the fore, leaders inclined to be more forceful and active in the governance of Britain's colonies. The Seven Years' War had resulted in a huge expansion of the British Empire thoughout the world, encouraging imperial thinking and ambition. The accession of George III introduced a politically active monarch into British politics for the first time in fifty years, and encouraged the rise of a new Tory party, which would govern under Lord North during the period of the American Revolutionary War. The authoritarian assertiveness of the Tories tended to be magnified in the perceptions of the colonists into intended tyranny. Whigs, who were inclined ideologically to be sympathetic to American aspirations to liberty and self-governance and relieved of the responsibility of governance, became important allies of the American cause in Parliament.
Economic Changes gave further impetus ...
-- Kevin Myers 02:26, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Should there be any mention of the Socio-Economic theory, a la Hugh Bicheno? It seems a little biased to not mention this view, unless it is already there and I just haven't seen it. 203.45.15.218 01:13, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Enlighten a poor amature... what does the Socio-Economic theory, a la Hugh Bicheno, say? Blueboar 02:10, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
This is not an old theory nor a leftist (well, depending on where you put the center) theory. It was the basis of a book -- The Unknown American Revolution, by Gary Nash of UCLA -- published last year. Kjb 02:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
It is a sad fact that they commonly fail to see how the american war of independance probably saved thousands of Canadian lives. Typically, Canadians do not give enough credit on Canada Day (July 1st) to the United States, who's sacrifice during the war of independence paved the way for a peaceful negotiation of the British North American Act, through which Canada was granted independance.
NPOV? -- stewacide
Is this somebody's grade 8 essay? There are serious NPOV issues all over the place.
QuartierLatin1968 00:09, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
...to decide the future of this article. Personally, I think we should scrap the 70% of it that deals with eighteenth century America as a whole. But we should also do some thinking about what it is we actually want to talk about here. What was the Revolution, as distinguished from the Revolutionary War? Was the Revolution something that happened before the War and made the War inevitable? Or are we talking the social and political transformations wrought through the Revolutionary upheaval, including the impacts on religion, demographics, Native/White relations, slavery, the colonies' economy; but perhaps most of all colonial independence and the politically radical decade from 1776 to 1787. Personally the second view makes more sense to me, and I'd hesitate for that reason to put these things into an "Aftermath" section. On the other hand, sections on pre-Revolution America should really go mostly to an article on the (social) history of the Thirteen Colonies. QuartierLatin1968 00:47, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps this explanation ought to be inserted into the introduction, rather like a health warning:-
"The American Revlution is often a misunderstood phenomenon. It has been mythologised as a rebellion of the American colonists against the British, but it was more in the nature of a civil war. Most of the participants initially thought of themselves as Brtish in some sense, identifying themselves with one of the two factions in the British parliament. The rebels incorporated the union jack in the first version of their flag, and referred to the colonial loyalists as 'Tories'. Many loyalists enlisted in scratch British units (some of them serving under the infamous Banastre Tarleton). In turn, there are many instances of loyalist civilians being 'tarred and feathered' or driven from their homes and busineses in a form of 'political cleansing'. In Britain, the governing elite were split down the middle. Some British officers resigned their commissions rather than fight the rebels. The war was so unpopular that the government resorted to employing Hessian mercenaries."
-- Train guard 11:15, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I believe it is inaccurate to say that: "Loyalties It should be noted, however, that a large proportion of the population did stay loyal to Britain, or at least remained neutral during the war. Loyalists, known as Tories, included members of the aristocracy who had a lot to lose, as well as recent immigrants who identified more with their birthplace than their new home. Both during and following the war, Tories were forced to flee to Canada or Britain. Many Native Americans also opposed the revolution, believing that they were likely to suffer more at the hands of independent Americans than the British. An estimated 10-15% of colonists were Loyalists, and about one-third of them left the United States. Some 70,000 Loyalists fled, along with 2,000 Native Americans. 50,000 of these Loyalists went to Canada, where they helped form the colonies of New Brunswick and Ontario. Some black Loyalists went to Sierra Leone." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:American_Revolutionary_War)
AS it is seemingly unsupported and in that:
regarding the American Revolutionary War of Indepdence (please not this as my response to the issues earlier stated) that "One-third loyal, one-third patriot, one-third undecided." (John Adams (“2. Loyalists a. 100,000 left the colonies4. Declaring Independence (WAYCROSS COLLEGE DR. COREY LESSEIG http://www.waycross.edu/faculty/coless/Am1lec.htm)
(which I recall was corroborated by Dr. Herbert Apteker in lectures attended by Andrew Zito) and in that:
“Loyalists, that sizeable pro-British element, perhaps a majority when open war began, who had stood by established law and imperial unity against revolutionary upheaval” ( http://www.canadianheritage.org/books/canada4.htm) “New York City, which was at that time more pro-British than England itself.“ (The Tribes and the States W. J. Sidis chapter 23, http://www.sidis.net/TSChap23.htm)
The question the colonial elite must have repeatedly asked each other is if the growing class hatred developing in the colonies could be focused against the pro-British elite, and be deflected from themselves, the national elite? (Lecture Notes 3 - The American Revolution African American History - Spring 1999 Department of History, St. John's University by Omar, Ali http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/4275/StJohnsLec3.html ). "about 40% of the population was pro-British. (The Presbyterian Rebellion ( by Harry Seabrook (harry@littlegeneva.com" http://www.littlegeneva.com/docs/presbyterian.htm )
It might be relevant to change the titles in this section from conservative and democratic to conservative and liberal, and perhaps clarify a bit as how those have changed over the years. The political issues of the time and wheather or not they can be converted to our time is debatable. The article points out the slave irony but leaves it at that. To quote salvidor dali "a man can go from liberal to conservative in 20 years without changing a single thought" and thats especially true in america, i don't want to change this because im a pretty bad writer and don't have time to research, but maybe someone does.
I removed the following assertion from this section... By an anonymous editor: "In the States of New York, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Georgia, the majority of the population remained loyal to Britain [See article Loyalist (American Revolution).]". I know this to be untrue for New York, and doubt it for all except maybe Georgia. Seems controversial enough to need a source or citation... Lou I 19:16, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm not American nor British, so I have very little background on the topic. But I feel that Magna Carta should just be mentioned. -- Nic Roets 19:28, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
With at least links to English Civil War, Glorious Revolution, and Divine Right of Kings - these formed part of the context of revolutionary thought.-- JimWae 19:45, 2005 July 20 (UTC)
Disagree. Perhaps, but not essential, would be mentioning the Magna Carta in relation to the U.S. Constitution (I believe they both share "due process" phrases). However, it was the 17th and 18th century thinkers that motivated the actors in the American Revolution. In a historical aspect, the Magna Carta and American Revolution were both movements against an percieved unjust king; but there were a lot of such movements in European history, just being one isn't enough to connect it the movement in the U.S. Interesting theory, though, if you could cite U.S. revolutionaries explicitly justifying themselves based on the Magna Carta. I have never come across such references.
"Conferation" and "Confereration" should be "Confederation", no? And James Crowley was in it and he died though too!!
im gonna go ahead and take out the dash between in and between in the second paragraph because i seriously doubt its like that 69.115.162.93 00:51, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
My source for saying that Brant was not the son of a Mohawk chief and that he did lead Tories is Isabel Thompson Kelsay's exhaustive life of Brant (Joseph Brant, 1743–1807, Man of Two Worlds, Syracuse, New York: Syracuse University Press, 1984. ISBN 0815601824 (hardback); ISBN 0815602081 (1986 paperback)). Also, note that power in Iroquois society descended matrilineally. -- Mwanner | Talk 23:00, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
The American Revolution's influence cannot be so large, especially in the Netherlands (see 80 Years War). Further more, it is safe to say that is was because of the French Revolution that the democracy took a big step forward.
- I agree. Additionally, the French Revolution was certainly not spurned by the American Revolution in a direct ideological fashion. The French governmental military operation in support of the colinies' war of Independenc certainly had a direct influence on the budget of France royality. This indirectly contributed to spurn the foot riots etc. . However, the american revolutionary ideas did not ideological influence the French writers such as Sieyes. It remains to be shown by the authors of this article how this influence exists. If it does not, I can't succumb to the idea of the great influence of American Revolution within Europe. The French Revolution cited by authors such as Kant had a great influence. If there is no direct link between the American and French Revolution then the believed American's revolutions influence is an americo-centrism.
"The fact that the French spent all that $$$ helping the American Revolution means they did not ignore it." This is just ridiculous Rjensen, the King of France send money, fleets and soldiers to support the American Revolution, the French made roll his head, this have nothing related at all. Otherwise nice to see how american-centered is this article, two lines on the help of France, like for its decisive help in the fall of Yorktown... This is a shame.
As it stands now, the article reads: "The revolutionaries, known as Patriots, Whigs, Congress Men or Americans included a full range of social and economic classes, but a unanimity regarding the need to defend the rights of Americans. George Washington, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton and John Jay, for example, were deeply devoted to republicanism while also eager to build a rich and powerful nation. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine represented democratic impulses and the agrarian plantation element that wanted a localistic society with greater political equality." I am not sure this is completely correct. These are certainly the stances that these people took in dealing with POST-revolutionary issues, but I think things were a bit more muddled before and during the revolution itself. Prior to the revolution, for example, Franklin was a strong advocate for the colonies joining into some form of centralized cross-colony government (as opposed to seperate colonies or states which could not indivitually fight for independance from Britan); Hamilton's views are not well known prior to the revolution (he was awfully young); and Washington demonstrated stauchly pro Virginian (local) loyalies in land disputes with Maryland and Pennsilvania... etc. I have a feeling we are reading Post-Revolutionary views into pre-revolutionary politics. Blueboar 18:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Under the section Crises, 1772-75, "The patriots controlled over 95% of the territory and 99% of the population, and were ready to declare independence" stuck out as inaccurate. A considerable segment of the population was sympathetic to England throughout the war, thought you wouldn't really know that by reading the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.93.4.113 ( talk • contribs).
Benjamin Franklin was not a Patriot until just before the revolution began. His "Unite or Die" picture was not designed to unite the colonies against british rule, but UNDER British rule (albany congress).
In the Pending Tasks box above the last item says: Recommend revision or reference to opening statement of "The American Revolution was a revolution that ended two centuries of rule of the Thirteen Colonies by the British Empire" Please justify TWO CENTURIES. That would place Brtian in North America in the 1500's. If you go by the first English claim to North America (made under Henry VII of England) the statement is accurate. And it is only 25 years off if you go by the first attempts at colonization in what would become the 13 colonies (1783-1607 = 175 years). perhaps the sentence should read "...ended close to two centuries of rule..." Another question to think about is the use of the term "British Empire". Most people (perhaps erroniously) think of the British Empire as what England gained AFTER they lost the 13 American Colonies. Others (especially some British Historians) call the American Colonies the "First British Empire" and India, Australia, Nigeria, etc. the "Second British Empire". Would it be more accurate to say "British" or even "English"? (just tossing all this out for comment... I really don't know how I would word it.) Blueboar 03:14, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Hello! I am a writer for the Smithsonian Institution's Center for Education and Museum Studies, which publishes Smithsonian in Your Classroom, a magazine for teachers. An online version of an issue titled "Revolutionary Money," about paper currency printed during the war, is available for free at this address:
http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/educators/lesson_plans/revolutionary_money/index.html
If you think your audience would find this valuable, I wish to invite you to include it as an external link. We would be most grateful.
Thank you so much for your attention.
I was redirected to this article after searching for "American Independence". I was searching for the political machinations that went on during the
Second Continental Congress involving the adoption of the
Lee Resolution -- including the fact that the vote for independence had been determined to be unanimous, and that things almost didn't pass. Shouldn't there be some section in this article (or on Wikipedia ANYWHERE) about what went down? New York's infuriating :Fabstentions, the Southern Delegation walking out in the last minute, Adams' great quip: "This is a revolution, we have to offend SOMEBODY!"
I don't know if this is a comment best left on the page for the Second Continental Congress or here (and I would assume that it's more or less the same people working on both), but I think it should be addressed.
--
MusicMaker5376
06:11, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
There's a lot of history here, and while that's an exciting bit I don't see why this particular page is lacking for it. It's already getting huge, to boot. I agree that the Second Continental Congress page makes more sense. Fearwig 16:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm a little uneasy with the description of this in the Republican ideology section. It is not clear that the Lockean 'rights' to life, liberty and property was only extended to the white population. I'm fully aware that this is a sensitive issue, so rather than 'wade in' and start editing the article, I would rather discuss it here first. Markb 09:51, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone recall whether Locke addressed that subject himself? He was a radical, but I think he still had a similar concept of social hierarchy to that of say, the Founding Fathers, which would include the subjugation of women, blacks, and other "child-like" or "morally vulnerable" people. Anyway, it's a generalization to say these rights were even extended to whites. The Declaration said a lot of things the Founding Fathers believed more in words than in action, and the 'pursuit of property' was something most of them thought better left to the landed class. I think most of this discussion is historically idealistic. Fearwig 16:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I've added significantly to the section on the war debt, mostly to detail the contemporary and historiographical controversy surrounding its repayment. If this is insufficiently supported, feel free to tell me--there are texts that will support my statements, but if you make me research it for citations I'm probably just going to wind up writing more! All that said, I think I just outlined the basic principles of a very large topic that's been covered by dozens of historians. The sources are there, though: Morris, for instance, was very vocal about his belief that the common man had no idea how to spend money and thus shouldn't have any more than he needs to subsist. If I recall, he was also pretty vocal about the dangers of democracy--but then, so were half the members of the Constitutional Convention. Anyway, that's a tangent--I've tried to be NPOV in the article edit (moreso than in talk), but if I've failed, feel free to talk it over with me (or edit away). Fearwig 04:52, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm taking it on myself to rewrite some parts of this article, including the introduction. The old version was redundant (repeating the same phrase three or four times in two sentences for no reason) and didn't really say much about the revolution itself. I hope others will join me, and maybe we can whip this thing into shape. With some research and work, it could make a decent feature. Fearwig 17:00, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Happy edit war! Discuss here, thanks, not in your edit summary. Fearwig 17:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
The Issue of paying the war debts was a major political debate of the 1790s. I summarized it. The old version was full of POV and was unsourced; it was not based on recent scholarship of 1790s (like Elkins and McKitrick or Ferguson). This is basically a postwar issue not a wartime issue. Rambling POV about class warfare/ rich vs poor was poorly done and not connected to wartime issues. (for example section on Morris--author did not mention the main events or Morris going bankrupt) Rjensen 19:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a seperate article for the War of Independence--this article is not, in general, about wartime issues. While we're at it we should remove everything on the concept of republican motherhood, since that didn't really kick in until the 1790s. I'll do so now, if we're streamlining the article according to these standards. There is additionally a great deal of scholarship available (most of it very recent--in fact you're adopting the "classical" argument by my interpretation) which supports the war debt as a class issue. Morris's bankruptcy was not directly related to the topic, but rather he was used as an example of the principles guiding the Federalist argument. Fearwig 20:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Also, Jesus, is this what you wrote?
"A political debate arose in the 1790s over whether the new fedearl government should pay the war debts at face value. Thomas Jefferson, who hated debts, wanted to pay only a fraction of the debt, arguing that honest soldiers and farmers had sold their debt certificates to speculatoirs who did not deserve full pay. Alexander Hamilton prevailed, saying that the national honor and fututer borrowing power required that all state and national debt be paid off at 100% of face value. Hamilton won and the debts were paid off in the 1790s at 100%."
I don't want to be a jerk, but I'm going to revert this and see if I can cleanse it of POV later. I can see how some of the points raised were POV (the nature of a controversy, as was elaborated), but this is inadequate and inaccurate ("Thomas Jefferson, who hated debts..."--the hell?)wi. Fearwig 20:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Is NA involvement in this war worthy of a seperate article? Considering the wide availability of information (and the length of the current article), I suggest that it is. Opinions? Fearwig 05:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Why is it that we have such an incredibly massive collection of references, and only one (two?) citations? It's somewhat impossible to legitimately "trim" references once they're there. I have the feeling someone went to their bookshelf and added every American Revolution text they owned, then did the rest from memory (or simply neglected to note what information came from what source) (I am talking about someone in particular, now. See if you can guess who you are. Fearwig 14:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)). This strikes me as a problem, in the long-term. If we can't remove some of the sources, and we don't know which were used where, we will eventually have sources that aren't actually involved in the present article (as material is edited away) but which are referenced regardless. Fearwig 18:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
The site http://www.americanrevolution.com/ (listed as an external link) contains at least one plagerized article, the one about the battle of Saratoga ( http://www.americanrevolution.com/BattleofSaratoga.htm). It is either them copying this other site ( http://www.saratoga.org/battle1777/history.html), or it is the victim. I would assume the former since it has advertisements sprinkled all over it while saratoga.org has no advertisements and appears to be from a more respectable source (the "Saratoga County Chamber of Commerce")
If you read the article on americanrevolution.com, everything after the first paragraph is the entire content of the other article down to the punctuation. Even the images are the identical. No credit is given on either page. - Zorroness 23:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm bringing some of this to the talk page to prevent an edit war, though I am re-editing the section in question, Rjensen. The key point of my edits was not to remove republicanism's primacy as the cause for the revolution, and I'm not sure why you came to that conclusion. I am retaining your characterization of Americans as being "primarily" (rather than just "heavily") influenced by the "country" Whigs, since I don't think it is a point of worthwhile contention.
If you'd like to argue these points with me (as I hope you shall), I would be happy to learn the rationale behind your various conclusions. Please read the Wikipedia entry on John Locke if you would like to see a justification for my statements on that topic, though I can pull up his own words if you are especially curious. Thanks! Fearwig 23:17, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
No need for edit war. I argue that Wiki should reflect current scholarship. Republicanism was the dominant force behind the Revolution, in the view of most historians and textbooks today. The leading scholars are Bernard Bailyn, Gordon Wood, John Pocock, Pauline Maier, Joyce Appleby. Fighting for your country was a central theme–especially as discussed when women come up (see Mary Beth Norton and Linda Kerber). Historians separate Lockean liberalism as a second intellectual strand. As for the Loyalists, the great majority stayed behind and became good republicans, while others returned from exile and were welcomed. Those who went to Canada were definitely anti-republican, but they were less than 10% of the Loyalists. As for civic virtue, that is one of the great central themes as in the virtue of the yeoman farmer vs the corruption of the Royal court. I suggest that these republicanism themes remain powerful in the 21st century (as we debate the military service of candidates like Clinton and Bush, and emphasize virtue when we impeach presidents or depose Congressmen.) For a good short discussion by senior historians see [1] Rjensen 05:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
We seem to have an on going edit war over inclusion of "The Patriot" in the Films and Plays list... so let's work this out once and for all... should it be included? If so, why? If not, why not? Blueboar 17:24, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Delete I haven't done any reverting (since it seems others are quite willing to take the effort for me), but I don't see how a film of such negligible value to those wanting a historical perspective on the event should be included. It would actually be preferable to remove the "films and plays" section entirely (unless you'd like to see a list of literally every film or play having anything to do with the American Revolution--probably hundreds--and I can't see why you would). The list has the potential to detract from the meat of the article itself, as is evidenced by the fact that an edit war has been occurring over something as mind-numbingly pointless as the inclusion/non-inclusion of The Patriot in a list of related films. Fearwig 19:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
can ignore it. However it is important to the tens of thousands of teachers who will use the article. As starters he should look at the film reviews in the Journal of American History and the American Historical Review. That is where history is at--having moved well beyond 1911 scholarship. He should in particular read the reviews of the Patriot American Historical Review 2000 105(4): 1439-1440 (by Brian Taves) and Journal of American History 2000 87(3): 1146-1148. by William St. George. Here's a sample (Taces): "The Civil War and Reconstruction have provided the background for hundreds of motion pictures, many of them classics. By contrast, the American Revolution has been highlighted in surprisingly few movies—most notably Scouting for Washington (1917), The Spirit of '76 (1917), Cardigan (1922), America (1924), Janice Meredith (1924), The Scarlet Coat (1955), Johnny Tremain (1957), John Paul Jones (1959), The Devil's Disciple (1959), 1776 (1973), and Revolution (1985)—none of which achieved either popular success or critical favor. The most popular features set in colonial times elided themes related to the struggle for independence in favor of the Western's motifs of settlement and conflict with the Indians, such as Allegheny Uprising (1939), Drums along the Mohawk (1939), The Howards of Virginia (1940), and the many film versions of The Last of the Mohicans. Television offerings have included the short-lived series "The Young Rebels" (1970–1971), which tried to draw parallels with the radicalism of the 1960s; the two miniseries George Washington (1983, 1986), starring Barry Bostwick in the title role; and the miniseries "The Swamp Fox" (1959–1960), still frequently repeated on Disney commercial and cable programming. From a commercial standpoint, the Revolution was the main American historical conflict that was adversarial for Hollywood's longtime principal secondary market, England. From the 1920s through the 1950s and beyond, Hollywood treated British history and institutions gingerly because that country's censorship could keep any unfavorable depictions from reaching British screens, rendering such productions predictably unprofitable. D. W. Griffith's America turned the Revolution's antagonists from the British to a fictional Walter Butler, an American Tory whose ultimate goal was establishing his own dominion. The Scarlet Coat was so skewed toward Anglo-American unity as to cast its English hero as a true visionary, while for the Americans, whether Tory or revolutionary, the ends justified the means. In "The Swamp Fox," the antagonists of the rebels were invariably referred to by such euphemisms as redcoats or His Majesty's troops; they were never called British even in Walt Disney's historical introductions. Only in very recent years, with such historical adventure pictures as Rob Roy and Braveheart, has the pro-British bias shifted. The motivations for the American Revolution may also be too complex to adapt easily to the screen. A film about the American Revolution requires the implicit admission that the United States was once a colony, subject to an overseas power. More importantly, American audiences may be uncomfortable with the radicalism of their forebears. The dominant interpretation of the themes of the American Revolution has therefore been undertaken by Hollywood in metaphorical terms, as historical adventure films. The genre's political motif emphasizes the overthrow of tyranny and injustice and the triumph of the political values that underlie democratic institutions, with middle-class insurrections led by such cinematic figures as Robin Hood, Zorro, or William Wallace. The adventure genre's remote, often ill-defined setting allows all audiences to applaud a hero espousing these goals, regardless of their own nationality, with Hollywood applying fundamentally contemporary American political attitudes to any historical period." (etc) That is how the leading history journal approaches the issue at hand and Wiki should be up to speed. Rjensen 22:28, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
1 Sickels, Robert, ed. The Patriot On-line: Discussion Network Posts from H-film and H-war. Film & History 2000 30(2): 63-68. ISSN: 0360-3695 A selection of 13 historians' responses to The Patriot (2000) posted on two H-Net discussion networks shows how such venues on the Internet provide a forum for the substantive treatment of issues related to historically based films.
2 Moore, Lucinda. "Capturing America's Fight for Freedom." Smithsonian 2000 31(4): 44-48, 50, 52-53. ISSN: 0037-7333 Fulltext: [ Ebsco ] Abstract: The makers of The Patriot (2000), a Revolutionary War movie centered around the resistance efforts of a local militia in South Carolina, enlisted the help of the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of American History for information about battle formations, weapons, uniforms, furniture, and anything else that would maximize the authenticity of the film.
3 Glancy, Mark. "The War of Independence in Feature Films: the Patriot (2000) and the "Special Relationship" Between Hollywood and Britain." Historical Journal of Film, Radio and Television [Great Britain] 2005 25(4): 523-545. ISSN: 0143-9685 Fulltext: [ SwetsWise | Ingenta ] Rjensen 16:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
the discussion was getting too long, and I hate scrolling down that much... so here is a continuation...
Let's get away from "The Patriot"... to me the issue remains, is a list of any films or plays needed in this article. I still think the entire section should go. It does not add to the article. There is no expert opinion or public consensus to indicate this group of films or plays are more important or relevant than this other group of films or plays... so if we are going to include some, we would need to include them all.
Yes, you can probably come up with comments by individual critics or historians that say a given film or play is relevant or important ... but what we do not have is something that compares them to others that may be MORE or LESS relevant or important. The analogy to generals is apt. In a biography of Henry Knox, the biographer is going to say that Gen. Knox was important. What he will probably not say in that bio is if Knox was more or less important than some other general, say Washington. However, when writing about the entire revolution we can rely on general concensus to clearly state that Washington is more "important" than Knox. We can even rely on expert opinion... In lists of the 100 most influential and important people in History, Washington gets listed while Knox does not. We do not have such concensus or such lists to rely on with films.
So... either we have to list every dramatic rendition and give them equal weight, or we need to list none of them. Since such a list would double the size of the article, I feel we should list none of them. How do other editors feel? Lets take a non-binding straw poll. Blueboar 15:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Should we keep the list of Plays and Films?
1) No, it adds nothing to the article. (also includes Move to seperate article)
2) Yes, it adds something important to the article.
Comments:
(note... I have re-ordered some of your comments into a slightly different form... I did not remove anything substantial to your comments, but I know people get touchy about others "messing" with their posts... if I have offended, I appologize.) Blueboar 20:05, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Comment the following was added by an anon, in the process deleting other comments. There is no User:Obow2003.
OK, we have polled the regular editors, and put out an RFC. So far the concensus is clearly in favor of deleting the list of movies from this article, with several editors commenting that it could be shifted to its own page. Have we given it enough time, or shall we wait a while longer? Blueboar 12:34, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
OK... the RFC has been up for more than a week and a half... the concensus seems to be that the list is useful, but that it should be moved to its own article (expanded, I would suggest, by some commentary on how the different films have demonstrated the shifting cultural views about the Revolution through the years). This is an approach that I can support. Any further comments or suggestions? Blueboar 12:57, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with this approach.-- Atemperman 00:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Invariably, this is going to need some protection soon. [2] — pd_THOR | =/\= | 16:32, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
It should be noted that it was not simply general representation but actual consent to be taxed. This is clarified in the Declaration of Independence where the 17th Grievance presents one of the definitions of Tyranny " He (the King or government) has taxed us without our consent". There is a sharp difference being represented for, and that of being represented by - through the action only of and by consent of those being represented. Contribution from Richard Taylor APP - Chair, American Patriot Party.cc
Following the suggestions from the RFC, I have created the article List of plays and films about the American Revolution and moved the list to that article (it is linked on this article). As I said above, I think it could use some commentary about how different films have interpreted the Revolution and reflected changing cultural views about it. I will leave that to those who understand that subject more than I do. Blueboar 15:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Having come to this topic somewhat late in the process, I'll share the successful experience of another Wikipedia page. For over two years the Joan of Arc article had a similar list at the end of the text - a prime example (many editors might say) of listcruft. However, no one actually deleted this list and it grew from diverse contributions, mostly regarding popular culture.
Late last year that list broke off from the main article and became its own page due to space constraints. With additional categories for literature and fine arts, and translations from a related page at the French Wikipedia, it grew to a substantial page of its own. None of the "crufty" entries proved to be a hoax and most were verifiable. The result is a unique resource: Wikipedia's Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc has become a featured list. It also appears to be the only list in existence that compiles references to Joan of Arc in graphic novels, computer games, and Japanese anime. The potential value of such information to parents and teachers should be obvious. While I'm not necessarily a Wikipedia inclusionist, the success of that experiment should encourage other articles. It takes minimal effort to copyedit and alphabetize the new additions, and by having kept the list with the main article for so long the entries really did accumulate well. Regards, Durova 23:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
What is this line about? "By 1763, Great Britain possessed a vast holding on the North American continent. In addition to the twenty-nine British colonies, victory ..." should that say 13 colonies? Or is it referring to some Canadian holdings or something? -- Awiseman 19:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I believe the phrase "Protests led to a powerful new weapon, the systematic boycott of British goods." sholud read "Protests led to a powerful new weapon, the systemic boycott of British goods."
systemic. adj : affecting an entire system;
(n.d.). WordNet® 2.0. Retrieved September 20, 2006, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=systemic&x=44&y=7
as opposed to...
systematic. adj 1: characterized by order and planning;
(n.d.). WordNet® 2.0. Retrieved September 20, 2006, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=systematic&x=30&y=16
My thoughts being the boycotts weren't as organized as they were complete.
Tom P.
The above referenced section seems to be confused regarding which states did and did not continue state-sponsored religion and when the practice discontinued.
Considering the subjective nature of disestablishment (is state religion established when the state mandates worship? when the state pays clergy salaries? when non-worshipers are banished?), perhaps the blanket bullet-point statements (continued state religion; disestablishment) should be expanded or removed.
As an example of the overbroad stroke, the New Jersey constitution granted free worship to its residents but required a religious test for public office. Yet New Jersey is listed as having disestablished religion. And New York is listed in the section that continued state religion, when in fact the 30th Article granted free religious worship and the 35th Article prevented all laws that would establish or maintain state-sponsored religion. Citation: Cobb, The Rise of Religious Liberty in America, New York 1902, p 502.
It is not so easy to say that the states that were bicameral continued state religion while the unicameral did not.
Given the frequent vandalism this article faces, I think it needs to be put on a semi-protect block (which blocks unregistered and new users from editing, but lets more experienced editors continue editing). Any objections? Blueboar 16:03, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I also agree --
Pentaman
21:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
The article fails to mention that the "Join or Die" cartoon was a cartoon telling the colonies to join the Albany Plan of Union, which is significant in attempts at Colonial self-government during the periods of the Revolution. -- PiOfFive 18:18, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
If we ever want this article to be taken seriously, we need to work on citing which references back which statements (or at least which sections) in this article. I have therefore tagged the article with a {{references}} tag. Blueboar 18:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
This article has been much improved since I first saw it. But it still contains large remnants of popular American patriotic mythology which need to be removed. The following sentences, for example, are out of place in a serious history article:
The reality was less romantic. The new federal constitution enshrined slavery and led to its retention in the USA for over thirty years after it was abolished in Britain’s colonies. [1] [2] [3] [4] Even free blacks were denied the vote in most states: By 1855, only five states allowed non-whites to vote, “and these states contained only 4 percent of the nation’s free black population. Notably, the federal government also prohibited blacks from voting in the territories it controlled.” [5] The extent of racial disenfranchisement in the United States is illustrated by the refusal of the federal government to grant citizenship to immigrants of oriental races until 1952 [6] and, of course, by the internment of Japanese-Americans in World War II. [7] Among whites, the right to vote and to hold office was at first limited in most states by property qualifications, some severe (see Keyssar). There were also religious restrictions. Most of the original state constitutions banned non-Christians from holding government office and several extended that exclusion to Catholics. [8] [9] Some, such as Texas, disallow non-believers to this day. [10]
The vast majority of women in the United States did not get the right to vote until 1920. [11]
Indians were not well treated, of course. They were barely viewed as humans and had effectively no rights at all. They were often hunted like animals. The Indian Removal Act of 1830 [12] began the sad final chapter in the genocide of Native Americans in the United States. [13]
These facts, and many others, do not support the claim of “the widespread assertion of liberty, individual rights and equality which would prove core values to Americans” or “the idea that government should be by consent of the governed.”
We must also be careful not to be too insular in our viewpoint. The majority of North American colonists were of British descent, many very recent, and were proud of the British democratic system on which our colonial governments were based. It was widely regarded both in Britain and in the colonies as the finest system of democracy in the world at that time. [14] Much of what the current author might be implying we invented we really borrowed from Britain. [15] The idea that "government should be by consent of the governed" was by no means new to Europe. [16]
Wikipedia articles should document patriotic mythology much in the same way they should document religious belief such as creationism. But they should not misrepresent these beliefs, however popular, as fact. This remains a problem with many articles on American history, perhaps largely because of the nonsense put out by Hollywood but I suspect in part history is not well taught in our schools. - Kjb 23:03, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
After the most recent set of vandal attacks, I have tried to revert back to what I know is a clean version. The article is not accepting my edits. Are we under a complete lock? Blueboar 18:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Changed opening to shorten intro (ideally, the Intro should be short enough for the table of content to appear near the top of the article.) Also made a few copy edits to the text. Did not remove anything, just some reorganization. -- Jayron 32 20:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Could this article please get protected status and be corrected to remove Tim Allen from all over the place? I'd do it myself, but I don't really know the procedure. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.181.228.22 ( talk) 16:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC).
Popularity meaning, how everyone felt about it. Feelings about the war? There should be a section on the popularity of the war. The war actually was fought, in the beginning, colonists:hey lets build a militia, and we don't want to separate from you GB. Yeah its weird. Furthermore in the south-it was more along the lines of: We like how we are, if they give us independence, great, but we don't need to take it by force.That was from the fact the south wasn't affected by the acts, as much as Massachusetts was. If all the colonists were zealous when it came to independence, the war would've ended much sooner. It wasn't all too popular. Also when the British hired the Mercenaries, the Hessians, they didn't have a will to fight (they're being paid) and many became respected American citizens post war. Also would this section go here or the American Revolutionary War article? Nominaladversary 02:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Can we have some evidence please, just i keep being told America was given indepence from england after it had finished somthing (disambiguity). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.159.230.40 ( talk • contribs) 18:50, December 12, 2006 (UTC)
Some issues...
The British government sought to tax its vast North American possessions, primarily to help pay for its past wars, most of the costs of which occurred in Europe.
During this time of liberalism and republicanism as part of US national identity and the people believing strongly that the theory of the social contract, which said people had the right to overthrow their leaders, therein lay a huge hypocrisy. Who was defined as ‘the people’? Europeans. And While they were fighting what they considered corruption and fighting for their independence and freedom from British rule, they were simultaneously building a society centered and based on corruption, slavery, slave labor, racist ideology, and white superiority. This obviously did not spell out freedom for anyone else not considered European, and therefore not included in their social contract.
The Proclamation of 1763 restricted American movement across the Appalachian Mountains. Regardless, groups of settlers continued to move west. The proclamation was soon modified and was no longer a hindrance to settlement, but its promulgation without consulting Americans angered the colonists.
The Intolerable Acts included...
The revolutionaries, known as Patriots, Whigs, Congress Men or Americans
Finally, most importantly, your citations are questionable. I'm pretty sure you've got to actually cite page numbers, not just general chapters of a book. So I'm putting this on hold, although I see much potential and I think this could reach GA easily if some issues, especially the references, were ironed out. Thanatosimii 01:42, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Objections not adressed, so I'm failing GA nomination
I find it a very large oversight that no where in this article is the Boston Massacre addressed. Even in the listed reasons building up to war it isn't mentioned, one of the most infamous, spun, incidents to effect the approach to war should be listed I believe. Nikter 23:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Up again for GA since objections from last one have been addressed. -- Banana04131 03:52, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Are they in modern US$ or in 1783 US$? The Person Who Is Strange 19:11, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
There were no US dollars in 1783. - Duribald 19:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Right. Excellent article! I'm putting it on hold for one reason only: inline citations. The article could generally do with a few more. You particularly need to adress the instances of "citation needed" banners, there's at least 5 of them towards the article's end. I also think this part is in desperate need of a citation:
In Pennsylvania, the landowners were horrified by their new constitution (Benjamin Rush called it "our state dung cart"), while in Massachusetts, voters twice rejected the constitution that was presented for ratification; it was ultimately ratified only as a result of the legislature tinkering with the third vote.
Tinkering with votes is a rather strong claim to be made, so back it up with an inline citation.
Other than that, there's two minor quibbles, which are really nothing in and of themselves, but I think there may be some room for improvement there. This section: "Military history: expulsion of the British 1776" seems a bit out of place, and the final section (National debt) doesnt tie in with the narrative quite as seemlesly as one would hope.
Overall, once the issue of citations has been addressed, this article can easily get GA, and probably also FA status.
Cheers! Druworos 16:34, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
The last paragrpah also has the problem of an external link. I will begin to try and find wources for these sections or remove them. -- Banana04131 21:44, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Good job addressing inline citations. There is still one issue though, you seem to have missed this spot:
Ironically, much of the financial support in the South of North America for the American Revolutionary War came from rich slave owners, who feared that the British ban on slavery (see abolitionism) would soon be applied to colonies —[citation needed]
After that has been addressed, I'll be more than glad to pass the article. Druworos 15:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Like I've already said, great article, and it's a great read. I believe the last section on National Debt doesnt tie in too well, as already pointed out, but nonetheless, it's a great article overall. I'm quite glad to pass it for GA, and will be nominating it for FA promptly. Druworos 10:52, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
This article blatantly does not meet the GA requirements. Proof positive that the GA process needs reform. — ExplorerCDT 20:31, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
O.K. After another look, I'll grant you that it could be included as a GA, despite being badly written (poor style, grammar issues, etc.) and that the notes need to be expanded to full citations per WP:CITE and that it does not include much or substantial discussion about many things (political developments between 1775-1783 when the revolution was going on) or the Enlightenment. I also think this article is not named correctly, as it is confusingly masquerading (as many have thought) as a copy of American Revolutionary War. GA is only as strong as its most lenient judge, and frankly, this article's inclusion makes GA look like a joke. And if you seriously think this article is a worthwhile FA candidate without repairing these (and at least taking this to PR), you're self-deluded and I'd laugh if it weren't so painful to think that some people are just clueless as how lacking this article is. — ExplorerCDT 21:05, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I put the article up for FAC, so concerned editors may want to check out Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/American Revolution. Cheers! Druworos 11:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Isn't there any consideration given to the fact that if Britain wasn't fighting France, the French wouldn't have helped the rebels ? This would, of couse, have meant that it was likely both that Britain would have won over the rebels, and that, of couse, a more just government would have come out of the whole affair. See www.pavefrance.com. Anon. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.102.23.127 ( talk) 04:28, 12 January 2007 (UTC).
Time for some semi-protection again? There's been serious vandalism the last couple of days. - Duribald 19:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've put in a request for semi-protection. Let's see what they say. :-) - Duribald 20:55, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
We have protection! :-) - Duribald 21:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The use of the word "Patriot" to describe colonist advocating and actively working towards a government independent of Great Britian is approriate based on it's historical use. However using it in lieu of the word "Insurgent" is an example of ethnocentrism; and thus evidence of strong bias. Articles describing similiar historical events use the term "insurgent" and no debate is required. Thus i feel it would be most appropriate if the origin and significance of the term "Patriot" be included, but the actual forces involved in the movment be reffered to as "Insurgents" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Edc04001 ( talk • contribs) 20:11, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
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okok, i don´t agree |
Last edited at 16:07, 14 December 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 20:11, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
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Thhis is currently a redirect page, to the war, but it shouldn't stay that way. This note is intended to make Wikipeians aware of what I intend and to make a request.
Please" If you have an article that should reference the revutionary war, do so. But, if you should logically refernce the revolution, then go ahead and write [[American Revolution]] rather than [[Revolution|American Revolutionary War]].
That way when there is an article here, the references will sort themselves out.
Outline of Proposed Article:
Now re-read the request at the top,, Thanks... Lou I 00:14 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)
If you don't like it, then you add information. These are different topics, one discusses a military campaign; the other discusses the socio-political differences which led to the war. Lirath Q. Pynnor
I redirected it again. If you want it to be an article Lir then please write one. And make sure you prove that this is a separate topic. Rmhermen 21:54, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)
I have gone through about 90 of the almost 250 links to this article and redirected about 60% of them to American Revolutionary War as they refered to military not political matters. Anyone want to help sort? Rmhermen 16:37, Nov 18, 2003 (UTC)
I still believe the outline at the top of the page is valid, but have hesitated to address the article. I agree we need the sorting you refer to but prefer to wait till this article is much better. I've been away for a while, and am still working around the edges of the main space. We need battles and campaigns improved, various events and biographies, more on the Continental Congress, various state and colonial histories, etc. My hesitation in working on this article is that it should tie all these pieces together. Sorry for the delay, and wishing for help from any interested Wikipedians. .... Thanks, Lou I 18:33, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I think the outline is a good idea.
Alexandros 19:14, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)
This is a kind of status update. I've already altered the outline proposed above, but I have completed what I think of as broad origins and created a stub-like paragraph for the immediate causes. We could use an article specific to the American Enlightnment, as well as improvement and expansion in the Great Awakening and the Enlightnent articles. My main efforts are still concentrated on biograpohies and the Revolutionary War, so feel free to expand this article. Thanks for your patience, Lou I 20:50, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
An anonymous user inserted a reference to the Renaissance into this section. Rmherman reverted it, and I agree with his action. But, one element in the addition was a reference to Gottfried Leibniz. Leibniz may deserve a reference here. His Essays on Understanding was in Jefferson's library, and was undoubtedly read by others of the founders. I just wanted to record this note for future updating. Lou I 16:33, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
I compare the origins of the American Revolutionary War and the Civil War to the Cold War; Every series of events that lead to every war should be considered as cold wars. - John Edward Alexander V--Ed Telerionus 20:51, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Here's the text I removed from this section, with explanations:
European Dynastic Wars, as experienced in the French and Indian Wars, raised several important ideas among the North American colonist.
One of these was the importance of self-reliance for their own defense, and a recognition that the European military establishments were less effective when applied on a continental scale. The Albany Congress taught them the value of cooperation between otherwise divergent colonies. Armies and techniques that might protect Great Britain, France, or the Netherlands could not be extended over thinly populated North America.
Another result was a rising sense of frustration, when victories earned in part by their blood and wealth were negotiated away for a gain in Asia or the Caribbean.
At the same time, political changes in Britain, itself, brought to the fore, leaders inclined to be more forceful and active in the governance of Britain's colonies. The Seven Years' War had resulted in a huge expansion of the British Empire thoughout the world, encouraging imperial thinking and ambition. The accession of George III introduced a politically active monarch into British politics for the first time in fifty years, and encouraged the rise of a new Tory party, which would govern under Lord North during the period of the American Revolutionary War. The authoritarian assertiveness of the Tories tended to be magnified in the perceptions of the colonists into intended tyranny. Whigs, who were inclined ideologically to be sympathetic to American aspirations to liberty and self-governance and relieved of the responsibility of governance, became important allies of the American cause in Parliament.
Economic Changes gave further impetus ...
-- Kevin Myers 02:26, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Should there be any mention of the Socio-Economic theory, a la Hugh Bicheno? It seems a little biased to not mention this view, unless it is already there and I just haven't seen it. 203.45.15.218 01:13, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Enlighten a poor amature... what does the Socio-Economic theory, a la Hugh Bicheno, say? Blueboar 02:10, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
This is not an old theory nor a leftist (well, depending on where you put the center) theory. It was the basis of a book -- The Unknown American Revolution, by Gary Nash of UCLA -- published last year. Kjb 02:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
It is a sad fact that they commonly fail to see how the american war of independance probably saved thousands of Canadian lives. Typically, Canadians do not give enough credit on Canada Day (July 1st) to the United States, who's sacrifice during the war of independence paved the way for a peaceful negotiation of the British North American Act, through which Canada was granted independance.
NPOV? -- stewacide
Is this somebody's grade 8 essay? There are serious NPOV issues all over the place.
QuartierLatin1968 00:09, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
...to decide the future of this article. Personally, I think we should scrap the 70% of it that deals with eighteenth century America as a whole. But we should also do some thinking about what it is we actually want to talk about here. What was the Revolution, as distinguished from the Revolutionary War? Was the Revolution something that happened before the War and made the War inevitable? Or are we talking the social and political transformations wrought through the Revolutionary upheaval, including the impacts on religion, demographics, Native/White relations, slavery, the colonies' economy; but perhaps most of all colonial independence and the politically radical decade from 1776 to 1787. Personally the second view makes more sense to me, and I'd hesitate for that reason to put these things into an "Aftermath" section. On the other hand, sections on pre-Revolution America should really go mostly to an article on the (social) history of the Thirteen Colonies. QuartierLatin1968 00:47, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps this explanation ought to be inserted into the introduction, rather like a health warning:-
"The American Revlution is often a misunderstood phenomenon. It has been mythologised as a rebellion of the American colonists against the British, but it was more in the nature of a civil war. Most of the participants initially thought of themselves as Brtish in some sense, identifying themselves with one of the two factions in the British parliament. The rebels incorporated the union jack in the first version of their flag, and referred to the colonial loyalists as 'Tories'. Many loyalists enlisted in scratch British units (some of them serving under the infamous Banastre Tarleton). In turn, there are many instances of loyalist civilians being 'tarred and feathered' or driven from their homes and busineses in a form of 'political cleansing'. In Britain, the governing elite were split down the middle. Some British officers resigned their commissions rather than fight the rebels. The war was so unpopular that the government resorted to employing Hessian mercenaries."
-- Train guard 11:15, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
I believe it is inaccurate to say that: "Loyalties It should be noted, however, that a large proportion of the population did stay loyal to Britain, or at least remained neutral during the war. Loyalists, known as Tories, included members of the aristocracy who had a lot to lose, as well as recent immigrants who identified more with their birthplace than their new home. Both during and following the war, Tories were forced to flee to Canada or Britain. Many Native Americans also opposed the revolution, believing that they were likely to suffer more at the hands of independent Americans than the British. An estimated 10-15% of colonists were Loyalists, and about one-third of them left the United States. Some 70,000 Loyalists fled, along with 2,000 Native Americans. 50,000 of these Loyalists went to Canada, where they helped form the colonies of New Brunswick and Ontario. Some black Loyalists went to Sierra Leone." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:American_Revolutionary_War)
AS it is seemingly unsupported and in that:
regarding the American Revolutionary War of Indepdence (please not this as my response to the issues earlier stated) that "One-third loyal, one-third patriot, one-third undecided." (John Adams (“2. Loyalists a. 100,000 left the colonies4. Declaring Independence (WAYCROSS COLLEGE DR. COREY LESSEIG http://www.waycross.edu/faculty/coless/Am1lec.htm)
(which I recall was corroborated by Dr. Herbert Apteker in lectures attended by Andrew Zito) and in that:
“Loyalists, that sizeable pro-British element, perhaps a majority when open war began, who had stood by established law and imperial unity against revolutionary upheaval” ( http://www.canadianheritage.org/books/canada4.htm) “New York City, which was at that time more pro-British than England itself.“ (The Tribes and the States W. J. Sidis chapter 23, http://www.sidis.net/TSChap23.htm)
The question the colonial elite must have repeatedly asked each other is if the growing class hatred developing in the colonies could be focused against the pro-British elite, and be deflected from themselves, the national elite? (Lecture Notes 3 - The American Revolution African American History - Spring 1999 Department of History, St. John's University by Omar, Ali http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/4275/StJohnsLec3.html ). "about 40% of the population was pro-British. (The Presbyterian Rebellion ( by Harry Seabrook (harry@littlegeneva.com" http://www.littlegeneva.com/docs/presbyterian.htm )
It might be relevant to change the titles in this section from conservative and democratic to conservative and liberal, and perhaps clarify a bit as how those have changed over the years. The political issues of the time and wheather or not they can be converted to our time is debatable. The article points out the slave irony but leaves it at that. To quote salvidor dali "a man can go from liberal to conservative in 20 years without changing a single thought" and thats especially true in america, i don't want to change this because im a pretty bad writer and don't have time to research, but maybe someone does.
I removed the following assertion from this section... By an anonymous editor: "In the States of New York, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Georgia, the majority of the population remained loyal to Britain [See article Loyalist (American Revolution).]". I know this to be untrue for New York, and doubt it for all except maybe Georgia. Seems controversial enough to need a source or citation... Lou I 19:16, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm not American nor British, so I have very little background on the topic. But I feel that Magna Carta should just be mentioned. -- Nic Roets 19:28, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
With at least links to English Civil War, Glorious Revolution, and Divine Right of Kings - these formed part of the context of revolutionary thought.-- JimWae 19:45, 2005 July 20 (UTC)
Disagree. Perhaps, but not essential, would be mentioning the Magna Carta in relation to the U.S. Constitution (I believe they both share "due process" phrases). However, it was the 17th and 18th century thinkers that motivated the actors in the American Revolution. In a historical aspect, the Magna Carta and American Revolution were both movements against an percieved unjust king; but there were a lot of such movements in European history, just being one isn't enough to connect it the movement in the U.S. Interesting theory, though, if you could cite U.S. revolutionaries explicitly justifying themselves based on the Magna Carta. I have never come across such references.
"Conferation" and "Confereration" should be "Confederation", no? And James Crowley was in it and he died though too!!
im gonna go ahead and take out the dash between in and between in the second paragraph because i seriously doubt its like that 69.115.162.93 00:51, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
My source for saying that Brant was not the son of a Mohawk chief and that he did lead Tories is Isabel Thompson Kelsay's exhaustive life of Brant (Joseph Brant, 1743–1807, Man of Two Worlds, Syracuse, New York: Syracuse University Press, 1984. ISBN 0815601824 (hardback); ISBN 0815602081 (1986 paperback)). Also, note that power in Iroquois society descended matrilineally. -- Mwanner | Talk 23:00, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
The American Revolution's influence cannot be so large, especially in the Netherlands (see 80 Years War). Further more, it is safe to say that is was because of the French Revolution that the democracy took a big step forward.
- I agree. Additionally, the French Revolution was certainly not spurned by the American Revolution in a direct ideological fashion. The French governmental military operation in support of the colinies' war of Independenc certainly had a direct influence on the budget of France royality. This indirectly contributed to spurn the foot riots etc. . However, the american revolutionary ideas did not ideological influence the French writers such as Sieyes. It remains to be shown by the authors of this article how this influence exists. If it does not, I can't succumb to the idea of the great influence of American Revolution within Europe. The French Revolution cited by authors such as Kant had a great influence. If there is no direct link between the American and French Revolution then the believed American's revolutions influence is an americo-centrism.
"The fact that the French spent all that $$$ helping the American Revolution means they did not ignore it." This is just ridiculous Rjensen, the King of France send money, fleets and soldiers to support the American Revolution, the French made roll his head, this have nothing related at all. Otherwise nice to see how american-centered is this article, two lines on the help of France, like for its decisive help in the fall of Yorktown... This is a shame.
As it stands now, the article reads: "The revolutionaries, known as Patriots, Whigs, Congress Men or Americans included a full range of social and economic classes, but a unanimity regarding the need to defend the rights of Americans. George Washington, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton and John Jay, for example, were deeply devoted to republicanism while also eager to build a rich and powerful nation. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine represented democratic impulses and the agrarian plantation element that wanted a localistic society with greater political equality." I am not sure this is completely correct. These are certainly the stances that these people took in dealing with POST-revolutionary issues, but I think things were a bit more muddled before and during the revolution itself. Prior to the revolution, for example, Franklin was a strong advocate for the colonies joining into some form of centralized cross-colony government (as opposed to seperate colonies or states which could not indivitually fight for independance from Britan); Hamilton's views are not well known prior to the revolution (he was awfully young); and Washington demonstrated stauchly pro Virginian (local) loyalies in land disputes with Maryland and Pennsilvania... etc. I have a feeling we are reading Post-Revolutionary views into pre-revolutionary politics. Blueboar 18:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Under the section Crises, 1772-75, "The patriots controlled over 95% of the territory and 99% of the population, and were ready to declare independence" stuck out as inaccurate. A considerable segment of the population was sympathetic to England throughout the war, thought you wouldn't really know that by reading the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.93.4.113 ( talk • contribs).
Benjamin Franklin was not a Patriot until just before the revolution began. His "Unite or Die" picture was not designed to unite the colonies against british rule, but UNDER British rule (albany congress).
In the Pending Tasks box above the last item says: Recommend revision or reference to opening statement of "The American Revolution was a revolution that ended two centuries of rule of the Thirteen Colonies by the British Empire" Please justify TWO CENTURIES. That would place Brtian in North America in the 1500's. If you go by the first English claim to North America (made under Henry VII of England) the statement is accurate. And it is only 25 years off if you go by the first attempts at colonization in what would become the 13 colonies (1783-1607 = 175 years). perhaps the sentence should read "...ended close to two centuries of rule..." Another question to think about is the use of the term "British Empire". Most people (perhaps erroniously) think of the British Empire as what England gained AFTER they lost the 13 American Colonies. Others (especially some British Historians) call the American Colonies the "First British Empire" and India, Australia, Nigeria, etc. the "Second British Empire". Would it be more accurate to say "British" or even "English"? (just tossing all this out for comment... I really don't know how I would word it.) Blueboar 03:14, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Hello! I am a writer for the Smithsonian Institution's Center for Education and Museum Studies, which publishes Smithsonian in Your Classroom, a magazine for teachers. An online version of an issue titled "Revolutionary Money," about paper currency printed during the war, is available for free at this address:
http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/educators/lesson_plans/revolutionary_money/index.html
If you think your audience would find this valuable, I wish to invite you to include it as an external link. We would be most grateful.
Thank you so much for your attention.
I was redirected to this article after searching for "American Independence". I was searching for the political machinations that went on during the
Second Continental Congress involving the adoption of the
Lee Resolution -- including the fact that the vote for independence had been determined to be unanimous, and that things almost didn't pass. Shouldn't there be some section in this article (or on Wikipedia ANYWHERE) about what went down? New York's infuriating :Fabstentions, the Southern Delegation walking out in the last minute, Adams' great quip: "This is a revolution, we have to offend SOMEBODY!"
I don't know if this is a comment best left on the page for the Second Continental Congress or here (and I would assume that it's more or less the same people working on both), but I think it should be addressed.
--
MusicMaker5376
06:11, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
There's a lot of history here, and while that's an exciting bit I don't see why this particular page is lacking for it. It's already getting huge, to boot. I agree that the Second Continental Congress page makes more sense. Fearwig 16:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm a little uneasy with the description of this in the Republican ideology section. It is not clear that the Lockean 'rights' to life, liberty and property was only extended to the white population. I'm fully aware that this is a sensitive issue, so rather than 'wade in' and start editing the article, I would rather discuss it here first. Markb 09:51, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone recall whether Locke addressed that subject himself? He was a radical, but I think he still had a similar concept of social hierarchy to that of say, the Founding Fathers, which would include the subjugation of women, blacks, and other "child-like" or "morally vulnerable" people. Anyway, it's a generalization to say these rights were even extended to whites. The Declaration said a lot of things the Founding Fathers believed more in words than in action, and the 'pursuit of property' was something most of them thought better left to the landed class. I think most of this discussion is historically idealistic. Fearwig 16:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I've added significantly to the section on the war debt, mostly to detail the contemporary and historiographical controversy surrounding its repayment. If this is insufficiently supported, feel free to tell me--there are texts that will support my statements, but if you make me research it for citations I'm probably just going to wind up writing more! All that said, I think I just outlined the basic principles of a very large topic that's been covered by dozens of historians. The sources are there, though: Morris, for instance, was very vocal about his belief that the common man had no idea how to spend money and thus shouldn't have any more than he needs to subsist. If I recall, he was also pretty vocal about the dangers of democracy--but then, so were half the members of the Constitutional Convention. Anyway, that's a tangent--I've tried to be NPOV in the article edit (moreso than in talk), but if I've failed, feel free to talk it over with me (or edit away). Fearwig 04:52, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm taking it on myself to rewrite some parts of this article, including the introduction. The old version was redundant (repeating the same phrase three or four times in two sentences for no reason) and didn't really say much about the revolution itself. I hope others will join me, and maybe we can whip this thing into shape. With some research and work, it could make a decent feature. Fearwig 17:00, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Happy edit war! Discuss here, thanks, not in your edit summary. Fearwig 17:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
The Issue of paying the war debts was a major political debate of the 1790s. I summarized it. The old version was full of POV and was unsourced; it was not based on recent scholarship of 1790s (like Elkins and McKitrick or Ferguson). This is basically a postwar issue not a wartime issue. Rambling POV about class warfare/ rich vs poor was poorly done and not connected to wartime issues. (for example section on Morris--author did not mention the main events or Morris going bankrupt) Rjensen 19:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a seperate article for the War of Independence--this article is not, in general, about wartime issues. While we're at it we should remove everything on the concept of republican motherhood, since that didn't really kick in until the 1790s. I'll do so now, if we're streamlining the article according to these standards. There is additionally a great deal of scholarship available (most of it very recent--in fact you're adopting the "classical" argument by my interpretation) which supports the war debt as a class issue. Morris's bankruptcy was not directly related to the topic, but rather he was used as an example of the principles guiding the Federalist argument. Fearwig 20:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Also, Jesus, is this what you wrote?
"A political debate arose in the 1790s over whether the new fedearl government should pay the war debts at face value. Thomas Jefferson, who hated debts, wanted to pay only a fraction of the debt, arguing that honest soldiers and farmers had sold their debt certificates to speculatoirs who did not deserve full pay. Alexander Hamilton prevailed, saying that the national honor and fututer borrowing power required that all state and national debt be paid off at 100% of face value. Hamilton won and the debts were paid off in the 1790s at 100%."
I don't want to be a jerk, but I'm going to revert this and see if I can cleanse it of POV later. I can see how some of the points raised were POV (the nature of a controversy, as was elaborated), but this is inadequate and inaccurate ("Thomas Jefferson, who hated debts..."--the hell?)wi. Fearwig 20:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Is NA involvement in this war worthy of a seperate article? Considering the wide availability of information (and the length of the current article), I suggest that it is. Opinions? Fearwig 05:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Why is it that we have such an incredibly massive collection of references, and only one (two?) citations? It's somewhat impossible to legitimately "trim" references once they're there. I have the feeling someone went to their bookshelf and added every American Revolution text they owned, then did the rest from memory (or simply neglected to note what information came from what source) (I am talking about someone in particular, now. See if you can guess who you are. Fearwig 14:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)). This strikes me as a problem, in the long-term. If we can't remove some of the sources, and we don't know which were used where, we will eventually have sources that aren't actually involved in the present article (as material is edited away) but which are referenced regardless. Fearwig 18:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
The site http://www.americanrevolution.com/ (listed as an external link) contains at least one plagerized article, the one about the battle of Saratoga ( http://www.americanrevolution.com/BattleofSaratoga.htm). It is either them copying this other site ( http://www.saratoga.org/battle1777/history.html), or it is the victim. I would assume the former since it has advertisements sprinkled all over it while saratoga.org has no advertisements and appears to be from a more respectable source (the "Saratoga County Chamber of Commerce")
If you read the article on americanrevolution.com, everything after the first paragraph is the entire content of the other article down to the punctuation. Even the images are the identical. No credit is given on either page. - Zorroness 23:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm bringing some of this to the talk page to prevent an edit war, though I am re-editing the section in question, Rjensen. The key point of my edits was not to remove republicanism's primacy as the cause for the revolution, and I'm not sure why you came to that conclusion. I am retaining your characterization of Americans as being "primarily" (rather than just "heavily") influenced by the "country" Whigs, since I don't think it is a point of worthwhile contention.
If you'd like to argue these points with me (as I hope you shall), I would be happy to learn the rationale behind your various conclusions. Please read the Wikipedia entry on John Locke if you would like to see a justification for my statements on that topic, though I can pull up his own words if you are especially curious. Thanks! Fearwig 23:17, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
No need for edit war. I argue that Wiki should reflect current scholarship. Republicanism was the dominant force behind the Revolution, in the view of most historians and textbooks today. The leading scholars are Bernard Bailyn, Gordon Wood, John Pocock, Pauline Maier, Joyce Appleby. Fighting for your country was a central theme–especially as discussed when women come up (see Mary Beth Norton and Linda Kerber). Historians separate Lockean liberalism as a second intellectual strand. As for the Loyalists, the great majority stayed behind and became good republicans, while others returned from exile and were welcomed. Those who went to Canada were definitely anti-republican, but they were less than 10% of the Loyalists. As for civic virtue, that is one of the great central themes as in the virtue of the yeoman farmer vs the corruption of the Royal court. I suggest that these republicanism themes remain powerful in the 21st century (as we debate the military service of candidates like Clinton and Bush, and emphasize virtue when we impeach presidents or depose Congressmen.) For a good short discussion by senior historians see [1] Rjensen 05:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
We seem to have an on going edit war over inclusion of "The Patriot" in the Films and Plays list... so let's work this out once and for all... should it be included? If so, why? If not, why not? Blueboar 17:24, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Delete I haven't done any reverting (since it seems others are quite willing to take the effort for me), but I don't see how a film of such negligible value to those wanting a historical perspective on the event should be included. It would actually be preferable to remove the "films and plays" section entirely (unless you'd like to see a list of literally every film or play having anything to do with the American Revolution--probably hundreds--and I can't see why you would). The list has the potential to detract from the meat of the article itself, as is evidenced by the fact that an edit war has been occurring over something as mind-numbingly pointless as the inclusion/non-inclusion of The Patriot in a list of related films. Fearwig 19:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
can ignore it. However it is important to the tens of thousands of teachers who will use the article. As starters he should look at the film reviews in the Journal of American History and the American Historical Review. That is where history is at--having moved well beyond 1911 scholarship. He should in particular read the reviews of the Patriot American Historical Review 2000 105(4): 1439-1440 (by Brian Taves) and Journal of American History 2000 87(3): 1146-1148. by William St. George. Here's a sample (Taces): "The Civil War and Reconstruction have provided the background for hundreds of motion pictures, many of them classics. By contrast, the American Revolution has been highlighted in surprisingly few movies—most notably Scouting for Washington (1917), The Spirit of '76 (1917), Cardigan (1922), America (1924), Janice Meredith (1924), The Scarlet Coat (1955), Johnny Tremain (1957), John Paul Jones (1959), The Devil's Disciple (1959), 1776 (1973), and Revolution (1985)—none of which achieved either popular success or critical favor. The most popular features set in colonial times elided themes related to the struggle for independence in favor of the Western's motifs of settlement and conflict with the Indians, such as Allegheny Uprising (1939), Drums along the Mohawk (1939), The Howards of Virginia (1940), and the many film versions of The Last of the Mohicans. Television offerings have included the short-lived series "The Young Rebels" (1970–1971), which tried to draw parallels with the radicalism of the 1960s; the two miniseries George Washington (1983, 1986), starring Barry Bostwick in the title role; and the miniseries "The Swamp Fox" (1959–1960), still frequently repeated on Disney commercial and cable programming. From a commercial standpoint, the Revolution was the main American historical conflict that was adversarial for Hollywood's longtime principal secondary market, England. From the 1920s through the 1950s and beyond, Hollywood treated British history and institutions gingerly because that country's censorship could keep any unfavorable depictions from reaching British screens, rendering such productions predictably unprofitable. D. W. Griffith's America turned the Revolution's antagonists from the British to a fictional Walter Butler, an American Tory whose ultimate goal was establishing his own dominion. The Scarlet Coat was so skewed toward Anglo-American unity as to cast its English hero as a true visionary, while for the Americans, whether Tory or revolutionary, the ends justified the means. In "The Swamp Fox," the antagonists of the rebels were invariably referred to by such euphemisms as redcoats or His Majesty's troops; they were never called British even in Walt Disney's historical introductions. Only in very recent years, with such historical adventure pictures as Rob Roy and Braveheart, has the pro-British bias shifted. The motivations for the American Revolution may also be too complex to adapt easily to the screen. A film about the American Revolution requires the implicit admission that the United States was once a colony, subject to an overseas power. More importantly, American audiences may be uncomfortable with the radicalism of their forebears. The dominant interpretation of the themes of the American Revolution has therefore been undertaken by Hollywood in metaphorical terms, as historical adventure films. The genre's political motif emphasizes the overthrow of tyranny and injustice and the triumph of the political values that underlie democratic institutions, with middle-class insurrections led by such cinematic figures as Robin Hood, Zorro, or William Wallace. The adventure genre's remote, often ill-defined setting allows all audiences to applaud a hero espousing these goals, regardless of their own nationality, with Hollywood applying fundamentally contemporary American political attitudes to any historical period." (etc) That is how the leading history journal approaches the issue at hand and Wiki should be up to speed. Rjensen 22:28, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
1 Sickels, Robert, ed. The Patriot On-line: Discussion Network Posts from H-film and H-war. Film & History 2000 30(2): 63-68. ISSN: 0360-3695 A selection of 13 historians' responses to The Patriot (2000) posted on two H-Net discussion networks shows how such venues on the Internet provide a forum for the substantive treatment of issues related to historically based films.
2 Moore, Lucinda. "Capturing America's Fight for Freedom." Smithsonian 2000 31(4): 44-48, 50, 52-53. ISSN: 0037-7333 Fulltext: [ Ebsco ] Abstract: The makers of The Patriot (2000), a Revolutionary War movie centered around the resistance efforts of a local militia in South Carolina, enlisted the help of the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of American History for information about battle formations, weapons, uniforms, furniture, and anything else that would maximize the authenticity of the film.
3 Glancy, Mark. "The War of Independence in Feature Films: the Patriot (2000) and the "Special Relationship" Between Hollywood and Britain." Historical Journal of Film, Radio and Television [Great Britain] 2005 25(4): 523-545. ISSN: 0143-9685 Fulltext: [ SwetsWise | Ingenta ] Rjensen 16:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
the discussion was getting too long, and I hate scrolling down that much... so here is a continuation...
Let's get away from "The Patriot"... to me the issue remains, is a list of any films or plays needed in this article. I still think the entire section should go. It does not add to the article. There is no expert opinion or public consensus to indicate this group of films or plays are more important or relevant than this other group of films or plays... so if we are going to include some, we would need to include them all.
Yes, you can probably come up with comments by individual critics or historians that say a given film or play is relevant or important ... but what we do not have is something that compares them to others that may be MORE or LESS relevant or important. The analogy to generals is apt. In a biography of Henry Knox, the biographer is going to say that Gen. Knox was important. What he will probably not say in that bio is if Knox was more or less important than some other general, say Washington. However, when writing about the entire revolution we can rely on general concensus to clearly state that Washington is more "important" than Knox. We can even rely on expert opinion... In lists of the 100 most influential and important people in History, Washington gets listed while Knox does not. We do not have such concensus or such lists to rely on with films.
So... either we have to list every dramatic rendition and give them equal weight, or we need to list none of them. Since such a list would double the size of the article, I feel we should list none of them. How do other editors feel? Lets take a non-binding straw poll. Blueboar 15:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Should we keep the list of Plays and Films?
1) No, it adds nothing to the article. (also includes Move to seperate article)
2) Yes, it adds something important to the article.
Comments:
(note... I have re-ordered some of your comments into a slightly different form... I did not remove anything substantial to your comments, but I know people get touchy about others "messing" with their posts... if I have offended, I appologize.) Blueboar 20:05, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Comment the following was added by an anon, in the process deleting other comments. There is no User:Obow2003.
OK, we have polled the regular editors, and put out an RFC. So far the concensus is clearly in favor of deleting the list of movies from this article, with several editors commenting that it could be shifted to its own page. Have we given it enough time, or shall we wait a while longer? Blueboar 12:34, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
OK... the RFC has been up for more than a week and a half... the concensus seems to be that the list is useful, but that it should be moved to its own article (expanded, I would suggest, by some commentary on how the different films have demonstrated the shifting cultural views about the Revolution through the years). This is an approach that I can support. Any further comments or suggestions? Blueboar 12:57, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with this approach.-- Atemperman 00:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Invariably, this is going to need some protection soon. [2] — pd_THOR | =/\= | 16:32, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
It should be noted that it was not simply general representation but actual consent to be taxed. This is clarified in the Declaration of Independence where the 17th Grievance presents one of the definitions of Tyranny " He (the King or government) has taxed us without our consent". There is a sharp difference being represented for, and that of being represented by - through the action only of and by consent of those being represented. Contribution from Richard Taylor APP - Chair, American Patriot Party.cc
Following the suggestions from the RFC, I have created the article List of plays and films about the American Revolution and moved the list to that article (it is linked on this article). As I said above, I think it could use some commentary about how different films have interpreted the Revolution and reflected changing cultural views about it. I will leave that to those who understand that subject more than I do. Blueboar 15:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Having come to this topic somewhat late in the process, I'll share the successful experience of another Wikipedia page. For over two years the Joan of Arc article had a similar list at the end of the text - a prime example (many editors might say) of listcruft. However, no one actually deleted this list and it grew from diverse contributions, mostly regarding popular culture.
Late last year that list broke off from the main article and became its own page due to space constraints. With additional categories for literature and fine arts, and translations from a related page at the French Wikipedia, it grew to a substantial page of its own. None of the "crufty" entries proved to be a hoax and most were verifiable. The result is a unique resource: Wikipedia's Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc has become a featured list. It also appears to be the only list in existence that compiles references to Joan of Arc in graphic novels, computer games, and Japanese anime. The potential value of such information to parents and teachers should be obvious. While I'm not necessarily a Wikipedia inclusionist, the success of that experiment should encourage other articles. It takes minimal effort to copyedit and alphabetize the new additions, and by having kept the list with the main article for so long the entries really did accumulate well. Regards, Durova 23:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
What is this line about? "By 1763, Great Britain possessed a vast holding on the North American continent. In addition to the twenty-nine British colonies, victory ..." should that say 13 colonies? Or is it referring to some Canadian holdings or something? -- Awiseman 19:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I believe the phrase "Protests led to a powerful new weapon, the systematic boycott of British goods." sholud read "Protests led to a powerful new weapon, the systemic boycott of British goods."
systemic. adj : affecting an entire system;
(n.d.). WordNet® 2.0. Retrieved September 20, 2006, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=systemic&x=44&y=7
as opposed to...
systematic. adj 1: characterized by order and planning;
(n.d.). WordNet® 2.0. Retrieved September 20, 2006, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=systematic&x=30&y=16
My thoughts being the boycotts weren't as organized as they were complete.
Tom P.
The above referenced section seems to be confused regarding which states did and did not continue state-sponsored religion and when the practice discontinued.
Considering the subjective nature of disestablishment (is state religion established when the state mandates worship? when the state pays clergy salaries? when non-worshipers are banished?), perhaps the blanket bullet-point statements (continued state religion; disestablishment) should be expanded or removed.
As an example of the overbroad stroke, the New Jersey constitution granted free worship to its residents but required a religious test for public office. Yet New Jersey is listed as having disestablished religion. And New York is listed in the section that continued state religion, when in fact the 30th Article granted free religious worship and the 35th Article prevented all laws that would establish or maintain state-sponsored religion. Citation: Cobb, The Rise of Religious Liberty in America, New York 1902, p 502.
It is not so easy to say that the states that were bicameral continued state religion while the unicameral did not.
Given the frequent vandalism this article faces, I think it needs to be put on a semi-protect block (which blocks unregistered and new users from editing, but lets more experienced editors continue editing). Any objections? Blueboar 16:03, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I also agree --
Pentaman
21:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
The article fails to mention that the "Join or Die" cartoon was a cartoon telling the colonies to join the Albany Plan of Union, which is significant in attempts at Colonial self-government during the periods of the Revolution. -- PiOfFive 18:18, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
If we ever want this article to be taken seriously, we need to work on citing which references back which statements (or at least which sections) in this article. I have therefore tagged the article with a {{references}} tag. Blueboar 18:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
This article has been much improved since I first saw it. But it still contains large remnants of popular American patriotic mythology which need to be removed. The following sentences, for example, are out of place in a serious history article:
The reality was less romantic. The new federal constitution enshrined slavery and led to its retention in the USA for over thirty years after it was abolished in Britain’s colonies. [1] [2] [3] [4] Even free blacks were denied the vote in most states: By 1855, only five states allowed non-whites to vote, “and these states contained only 4 percent of the nation’s free black population. Notably, the federal government also prohibited blacks from voting in the territories it controlled.” [5] The extent of racial disenfranchisement in the United States is illustrated by the refusal of the federal government to grant citizenship to immigrants of oriental races until 1952 [6] and, of course, by the internment of Japanese-Americans in World War II. [7] Among whites, the right to vote and to hold office was at first limited in most states by property qualifications, some severe (see Keyssar). There were also religious restrictions. Most of the original state constitutions banned non-Christians from holding government office and several extended that exclusion to Catholics. [8] [9] Some, such as Texas, disallow non-believers to this day. [10]
The vast majority of women in the United States did not get the right to vote until 1920. [11]
Indians were not well treated, of course. They were barely viewed as humans and had effectively no rights at all. They were often hunted like animals. The Indian Removal Act of 1830 [12] began the sad final chapter in the genocide of Native Americans in the United States. [13]
These facts, and many others, do not support the claim of “the widespread assertion of liberty, individual rights and equality which would prove core values to Americans” or “the idea that government should be by consent of the governed.”
We must also be careful not to be too insular in our viewpoint. The majority of North American colonists were of British descent, many very recent, and were proud of the British democratic system on which our colonial governments were based. It was widely regarded both in Britain and in the colonies as the finest system of democracy in the world at that time. [14] Much of what the current author might be implying we invented we really borrowed from Britain. [15] The idea that "government should be by consent of the governed" was by no means new to Europe. [16]
Wikipedia articles should document patriotic mythology much in the same way they should document religious belief such as creationism. But they should not misrepresent these beliefs, however popular, as fact. This remains a problem with many articles on American history, perhaps largely because of the nonsense put out by Hollywood but I suspect in part history is not well taught in our schools. - Kjb 23:03, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
After the most recent set of vandal attacks, I have tried to revert back to what I know is a clean version. The article is not accepting my edits. Are we under a complete lock? Blueboar 18:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Changed opening to shorten intro (ideally, the Intro should be short enough for the table of content to appear near the top of the article.) Also made a few copy edits to the text. Did not remove anything, just some reorganization. -- Jayron 32 20:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Could this article please get protected status and be corrected to remove Tim Allen from all over the place? I'd do it myself, but I don't really know the procedure. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.181.228.22 ( talk) 16:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC).
Popularity meaning, how everyone felt about it. Feelings about the war? There should be a section on the popularity of the war. The war actually was fought, in the beginning, colonists:hey lets build a militia, and we don't want to separate from you GB. Yeah its weird. Furthermore in the south-it was more along the lines of: We like how we are, if they give us independence, great, but we don't need to take it by force.That was from the fact the south wasn't affected by the acts, as much as Massachusetts was. If all the colonists were zealous when it came to independence, the war would've ended much sooner. It wasn't all too popular. Also when the British hired the Mercenaries, the Hessians, they didn't have a will to fight (they're being paid) and many became respected American citizens post war. Also would this section go here or the American Revolutionary War article? Nominaladversary 02:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Can we have some evidence please, just i keep being told America was given indepence from england after it had finished somthing (disambiguity). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.159.230.40 ( talk • contribs) 18:50, December 12, 2006 (UTC)
Some issues...
The British government sought to tax its vast North American possessions, primarily to help pay for its past wars, most of the costs of which occurred in Europe.
During this time of liberalism and republicanism as part of US national identity and the people believing strongly that the theory of the social contract, which said people had the right to overthrow their leaders, therein lay a huge hypocrisy. Who was defined as ‘the people’? Europeans. And While they were fighting what they considered corruption and fighting for their independence and freedom from British rule, they were simultaneously building a society centered and based on corruption, slavery, slave labor, racist ideology, and white superiority. This obviously did not spell out freedom for anyone else not considered European, and therefore not included in their social contract.
The Proclamation of 1763 restricted American movement across the Appalachian Mountains. Regardless, groups of settlers continued to move west. The proclamation was soon modified and was no longer a hindrance to settlement, but its promulgation without consulting Americans angered the colonists.
The Intolerable Acts included...
The revolutionaries, known as Patriots, Whigs, Congress Men or Americans
Finally, most importantly, your citations are questionable. I'm pretty sure you've got to actually cite page numbers, not just general chapters of a book. So I'm putting this on hold, although I see much potential and I think this could reach GA easily if some issues, especially the references, were ironed out. Thanatosimii 01:42, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Objections not adressed, so I'm failing GA nomination
I find it a very large oversight that no where in this article is the Boston Massacre addressed. Even in the listed reasons building up to war it isn't mentioned, one of the most infamous, spun, incidents to effect the approach to war should be listed I believe. Nikter 23:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Up again for GA since objections from last one have been addressed. -- Banana04131 03:52, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Are they in modern US$ or in 1783 US$? The Person Who Is Strange 19:11, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
There were no US dollars in 1783. - Duribald 19:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Right. Excellent article! I'm putting it on hold for one reason only: inline citations. The article could generally do with a few more. You particularly need to adress the instances of "citation needed" banners, there's at least 5 of them towards the article's end. I also think this part is in desperate need of a citation:
In Pennsylvania, the landowners were horrified by their new constitution (Benjamin Rush called it "our state dung cart"), while in Massachusetts, voters twice rejected the constitution that was presented for ratification; it was ultimately ratified only as a result of the legislature tinkering with the third vote.
Tinkering with votes is a rather strong claim to be made, so back it up with an inline citation.
Other than that, there's two minor quibbles, which are really nothing in and of themselves, but I think there may be some room for improvement there. This section: "Military history: expulsion of the British 1776" seems a bit out of place, and the final section (National debt) doesnt tie in with the narrative quite as seemlesly as one would hope.
Overall, once the issue of citations has been addressed, this article can easily get GA, and probably also FA status.
Cheers! Druworos 16:34, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
The last paragrpah also has the problem of an external link. I will begin to try and find wources for these sections or remove them. -- Banana04131 21:44, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Good job addressing inline citations. There is still one issue though, you seem to have missed this spot:
Ironically, much of the financial support in the South of North America for the American Revolutionary War came from rich slave owners, who feared that the British ban on slavery (see abolitionism) would soon be applied to colonies —[citation needed]
After that has been addressed, I'll be more than glad to pass the article. Druworos 15:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Like I've already said, great article, and it's a great read. I believe the last section on National Debt doesnt tie in too well, as already pointed out, but nonetheless, it's a great article overall. I'm quite glad to pass it for GA, and will be nominating it for FA promptly. Druworos 10:52, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
This article blatantly does not meet the GA requirements. Proof positive that the GA process needs reform. — ExplorerCDT 20:31, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
O.K. After another look, I'll grant you that it could be included as a GA, despite being badly written (poor style, grammar issues, etc.) and that the notes need to be expanded to full citations per WP:CITE and that it does not include much or substantial discussion about many things (political developments between 1775-1783 when the revolution was going on) or the Enlightenment. I also think this article is not named correctly, as it is confusingly masquerading (as many have thought) as a copy of American Revolutionary War. GA is only as strong as its most lenient judge, and frankly, this article's inclusion makes GA look like a joke. And if you seriously think this article is a worthwhile FA candidate without repairing these (and at least taking this to PR), you're self-deluded and I'd laugh if it weren't so painful to think that some people are just clueless as how lacking this article is. — ExplorerCDT 21:05, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I put the article up for FAC, so concerned editors may want to check out Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/American Revolution. Cheers! Druworos 11:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Isn't there any consideration given to the fact that if Britain wasn't fighting France, the French wouldn't have helped the rebels ? This would, of couse, have meant that it was likely both that Britain would have won over the rebels, and that, of couse, a more just government would have come out of the whole affair. See www.pavefrance.com. Anon. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.102.23.127 ( talk) 04:28, 12 January 2007 (UTC).
Time for some semi-protection again? There's been serious vandalism the last couple of days. - Duribald 19:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've put in a request for semi-protection. Let's see what they say. :-) - Duribald 20:55, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
We have protection! :-) - Duribald 21:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The use of the word "Patriot" to describe colonist advocating and actively working towards a government independent of Great Britian is approriate based on it's historical use. However using it in lieu of the word "Insurgent" is an example of ethnocentrism; and thus evidence of strong bias. Articles describing similiar historical events use the term "insurgent" and no debate is required. Thus i feel it would be most appropriate if the origin and significance of the term "Patriot" be included, but the actual forces involved in the movment be reffered to as "Insurgents" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Edc04001 ( talk • contribs) 20:11, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
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okok, i don´t agree |
Last edited at 16:07, 14 December 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 20:11, 2 May 2016 (UTC)