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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
This article is nothing but a description of Amren through the view of SPLC and Anti-Defamation League. No attempts at objectivity was made during the writing of this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.18.124.243 ( talk) 14:19, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
The ADL is hardly a non-biased NPOV source, I'm removing it. Volksgeist 14:38, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
I have made some modifications to the article as it previously seemed to merely reiterate the POV of AR itself, without properly contextualizing it. -- Betamod 03:13, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the "criticism" section and some of the links to hostile entities, since the article is under no obligation to give attention to the opposition. Irvine White Nationalist
"Irvine White Nationalist" has removed links to source material that he alleges are hostile to AR, yet since they are now gone, we have only his word for it and can't decide for ourselves. Articles have no obligations but editors of articles do have obligations and one of them is to give space to contrary opinions. It is self evident that an article on just about any subject should include references to all significant controversy about the subject and clearly AR has garnered a fair amount of controversy so why can't its white nationalist supporters be honest about that? What are you afraid of "Irvine White Nationalist"?
It is NOT self edvident that an article on AR also include all references to contrary opinions. Especially when said "opinions" are only crude defamation and not reasoned argument. Please refrain from making such suggestions in future, or I shall report you. - Irvine White Nationalist 17 June 2008
There is a misleading statement in the first part of the article. It says that "neo-Nazis and KKKers" were kicked out for anti-semitism. While it is true that certian persons of this type were kicked out, the sentence as written implies - falsly - that neo-nazis and kkk members don't associate (or are no longer allowed to associate) with the magazine in general. I'm going to take that out, beginning with the last comma. The refence for the rest of the sentence will remain in place. Without this edit, the article is rightly NPOV. -adropofreason
This article is a parody of itself. A left-wing exudation based on newspaper's columns of a left-wing journalist. What about mentioning the "facts and statistics derived from sometimes reputable sources, but taken out of context"? I would be curious. Centrum99 12:51, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Despite what the article claims, Amren is just a website, it hasn't published a magazine since January 2012 (http://www.amren.com/ar/2012/index.html). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.96.52.218 ( talk) 19:02, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Why is this article filled with references to racism and white separatism, but the NCF's article has few to none? Tim Long 04:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
“19:50, 25 June 2007 Spylab (Talk | contribs) m (6,458 bytes) (deleted names that don't have their own Wikipedia articles)” http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=American_Renaissance_%28magazine%29&action=history
Since you are constantly reverting edits, and rationalizing such conduct based on a non-existent rule which I have traced back to User:Will Beback, who invented it at 22:26 on 20 June, in order to violate WP:NPOV, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Comradesandalio#Notable_contributors ) you too are guilty of violating WP:NPOV, as well as WP:POINT, WP:HARASSMENT, and WP:CIVIL, and not only engaging in edit warring, but engaging in a proxy edit war on behalf of User:Will Beback. As other editors have told User:Will Beback, so I tell you: Don’t be a dick. 70.23.167.160 23:04, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The title of that list is "Notable contributors". If a person isn't notable enough to have a Wikipedia article, then they aren't notable enough to be on the list. Also, without references or their own Wikipedia articles, there is no way to verify that the people are actually contributors to the publication. Anyone could add a random name for whatever reason. Spylab 11:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
That as a proxy in a stalking campaign you have the gall to vandalize this article, lock it down, and claim that I was vandalizing it, is nothing short of obscene. 70.23.164.215 05:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
(cur) (last) 15:38, 29 June 2007 Jayjg (Talk | contribs) m (74,249 bytes) (Reverted edits by 70.23.164.215 (talk) to last revision by Eleland) http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:Jayjg&action=history
At 05:10, 29 June, in response to [User:Jayjg]]’s participation in a stalking campaign against me, in which capacity he vandalized the American Renaissance article, I posted “Paging George Orwell (American Renaissance)” on his talk page. Ten hours and 28 minutes later, User:Jayjg vandalized my observation, sending it down the memory hole. Something tells me that he does not take his irony supplements. 70.23.164.215 04:09, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, it seems to me that since I last edited this article it has been systematically obscured by the removal of relevant information by people who seem to be supporters of the opinions promoted by AR. I can't say that I agree with AR's ideology but I did try to be POV neutral in my contributions. In contrast to my contributions, the more recent edits are transparently biased towards AR and anyone who reads it can tell that it's skewed. The vandals are not fooling anyone! However what I find perplexing is why they would seek to obscure AR's association with other racialist/racist/racial separatist organizations and persons unless they are ashamed of said associations. Yet if they are ashamed of beliefs they hold, then why do they hold them? That seems rather futile, as well as dishonest, cowardly and stupid. Why not have the guts to engage in an honest discourse about their beliefs, otherwise what hope do they have of convincing anyone else of their validity? -- Betamod 01:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
The title of this article should be "Criticism of American Renaissance" since all it does it list the criticisms of the magazine. Many Wikipedia topics have "Criticism" as a subtopic, but if you made one for this article, there wouldn't be anything left outside the subtopic. Tpellman 19:42, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
-- Betamod 20:16, 25 July 2007 (UTC)"
I notice that a new anon IP has added a few more unsourced statements and also more citations from the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) -- most definitely not a reliable third-party source (emphasis on "third-party"). In fact, under the circumstances, I would consider it a partisan political source. Attributing a brief citation to the ADL and their view of the magazine is fine, of course. But constantly citing the ADL in such a small article borders on WP:UNDUE, especially when the reader is not always made aware in the text that it's the ADL stating these things. Unless someone can think of a good policy-oriented reason why so much should be sourced from the ADL and not reliable, neutral, third-party sources (specifically newspapers or academic articles), most (not all) of the ADL commentary should be removed, in my opinion. I don't think we're being neutral by constantly adding negative commentary from the same partisan sources. J Readings ( talk) 19:00, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
While I don't personally doubt the racist nature of this magazine, I'm not sure about the line "widely discredited the magazine's content as far-right and racist in the eyes of most mainstream sources" without some sort of cite. The only media source I could find was indymedia, and I'm not really going to call them 'mainstream.' A cite from a major media player or two would be useful if this line is going to stay in the article. Random name ( talk) 07:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Here, as elsewhere, your method is transparent: you delete anything that fails to cast the object of your scorn in a contemptuous light [WP:WEIGHT], remove NPOV language [WP:NPOV], and re-insert language that is laughably POV. Had I added pathetic material lambasting the subject, you would have left it in, as you have always done with other such material.
You care so little about respecting [WP’s] editorial rules and guidelines that you have repeatedly reverted stylistic, grammatical, and spelling corrections, and have re-inserted both errors and just plain lousy writing. The material I added isn’t off-topic; the subject’s responses to its critics are more on-topic than the criticisms in the article, because the criticisms were variously dishonest (the subject did not devote “some issues” to theological justifications for racial segregation) and written in inflammatory, POV language. And if you honestly believed that I violated [WP:WEIGHT], you would have re-written the passage in question, making it more succinct. I will not waste additional time doing so, because you will simply delete whatever I replace it with, just as you wasted all of the time I put into editing the article, in the first place. You clearly have a passion for wasting other people’s time and labor.
And don’t tell me I’m guilty of violating [WP:AGF], since one is not obliged to AGF in the case of someone who has repeatedly, flagrantly shown bad faith. You don’t even try to give the impression of editing in good faith, and are thus the embodiment of the POV warrior. Please cease and desist. 24.90.201.232 ( talk) 04:40, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Just a couple of comments. The phrase "Reminiscent of W.E.B. DuBois, the magazine's own page claims," violates NOR and NPOV. As to "racial realist," who uses this term, and how notable is it? I never heard of it. "Racialist" clearly applies to any separatist or supremist view. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:41, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
As I was saying, the point to which I object the most is the introduction of disparaging comments about Wikipedia in the article. While it's alright to say AmRen criticized Wikipedia, the long section is off-topic and disparaging of Wikipedia editors to boot. If you absolutely want to put it somewhere, Criticisms of Wikipedia would be the place.
Also, in the talk page of Race realism, it is mentioned that the difference between Race realism and Racialism is that the latter is usually promoting ideas of (in this case White) separatism. The founder of AmRen, Jared Taylor did promote such ideas, so I'm not sure that it's really a race realist rather than a racialist publication, if it is true to its founder's ideologies.
I am unsure about the removal of the paragraph related to the early years of the magazine, when it tried to assert some credibility among conservatives. Also, the labeling of both the ADL and the SPLC as "controversial" need attribution. Who called them that?
Also, to affirm that "just one" and not "some" (which may be very few) issues used a theological argument would need for you to have read all issues of the magazine, cover to cover.
The links AmRen has are with organizations and individuals involved in a few specific areas of controversy, usually ideologically or racially-related. I don't see the problem with being specific here.
And of, course, you're right that it's the Anti-Defamation League, and not the Ant-Defamation League.
Now, if you could pleas explain your reasoning, and try to keep this as WP:CIVIL as I've tried, maybe we have a chance of solving our differences.-- Ramdrake ( talk) 22:59, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
In the article on the ADL, can one bring sources from American Renaissance? If not, what makes the ADL more reliable than American Renaissance other than its popularity? -- Comradesandalio ( talk) 23:20, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
ADL can be source for ADL claims that (when is relevant what they claim) but not for Somebody-who-ADL-doesn´t-like is.... Promoting ADL, SPLC... and flinging dirt at AR, VDARE... is problem of systematical bias at English Wikipedia. -- Dezidor ( talk) 18:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
This material has been deleted twice. Could we get an explanation for why sourced criticism is being removed? Will Beback talk 19:36, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
The article states that:
It is rather disingenuous to imply AmRen is anti-semitic because it publishes negative letters about Jews from readers, considering that AmRen publishes all letters sent to them in their "Letters From Readers" section. For instance, in the March 2007 issue, in response to the Halifax incident AmRen published this letter:
Should we also add to the article that AmRen publishes letters supporting violence against "racists" as well?-- XO^10 ( talk) 22:04, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
This section was written in a very biased manner, with more space devoted to the fact that Taylor appeared on the Stormfront radio program than to the issues raised by the conference shutdown. I have tried to balance it out a little bit, without removing any of the existing information.
Posted by TimMagic —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimMagic ( talk • contribs) 07:27, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
An abridged conference was held and here is a link to videos of some of the speakers:
http://www.youtube.com/user/jewamongyou?feature=mhw4#p/u/16/RUZF1c2pTxE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.20.25.22 ( talk) 04:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
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I moved this name here from the list of notable contributors. The three citations all appear to be copied material from a newspaper, with no indication that they are even authorized. I believe what the site does is copy news items of interest, snipping them to avoid copyright violations. I see no sign that the writer has intended to contribute to the site or the magazine directly. Will Beback talk 13:47, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
An RfC:
Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the
Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. –
MrX
16:18, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
An IP editor wants the article to say, in WP voice, that the magazine is white supremicist. It's much better to have what the article currently says, which is The Anti-Defamation League describes American Renaissance as a "white supremacist journal". St Anselm ( talk) 22:27, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
I removed the clause "which has been described as 'virulently racist'" in the opening sentence. I reviewed the source for the "virulently racist" characterization and can't see how it merits inclusion. Here is the source. As you can see, this is a one-off remark about AR used to introduce a quote by Jared Taylor. Moreover, it's the only mention of AR and Taylor in the entire book. Context matters. Home-Grown Hate: Gender and Organized Racism might be a good source for "new and exciting scholarship" on whether the so called white-supremacist movement is "gendered," but it's completely inappropriate for this article. Dmcw127 ( talk) 03:02, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Please don't accuse me of white washing. I am trying to have a constructive discussion about improving this article. I wasn't trying to imply my prior comments are authoritative. I was just trying to avoid repeating myself. My position is the article shouldn't rely on bare assertions calling AmRen "racist" or "white supremacist." The Atlantic Wire article is about National Review and a person named Robert Weissberg; Home-Grown Hate is a book about "Gender and Organized Racism." Each source makes precisely one statement about AmRen. Each statement is peripheral to the article and unsupported. Using these sources amounts to citing arbitrary instances of name-calling because ipse dixit. According to WP:RS, "Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is an appropriate source for that content."
We should be using the most reliable and comprehensive sources we can find to establish a neutral overview, not whatever errant remarks we can dig up by googling: "AmRen" + "white supremacist". Such practice is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. One possible source that I mentioned before (and will repeat here) is Carol Swain's book The New White Nationalism in America: Its Challenge to Integration. Unlike the sources noted above, Swain provides a substantial treatment of AmRen, i.e., more than one sentence. Based on this and other reliable sources, I think AmRen can be fairly characterized as "white nationalist" or "white separatist" but white supremacist appears unfounded. I've read a couple articles in AmRen as you suggested and I don't understand why you feel "white supremacist is a pretty accurate description" or Amren is "devoted to white supremacism." White supremacy is a loaded term that connotes extremist groups like the Ku Klux Klan and the Aryan Brotherhood.
As the article stands, the only information in the lead is how AmRen "has been described as a white supremacist publication." This strikes me as a rather tendentious framing for an encyclopedia entry, and I welcome more discussion on how we should proceed. Dmcw127 ( talk) 20:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
I moved the POV description and references to a new "Criticism" section. 67.6.98.234 ( talk) 04:34, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
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American Renaissance is now just a website, it no longer has a print version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.101.57.183 ( talk) 04:29, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The Ideology part is a pure invention and defamation. We could say the same about the ADL that it is a Jewish supremacist organization using African Americans against Whites.-- 109.23.159.201 ( talk) 21:06, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Should be worked on. http://www.amren.com/about/ Connor Machiavelli ( talk) 23:21, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
The article name talks about a magazine. The magazine no longer exists; the subject of the article is now a website. Somebody who knows how to fix this should fix it. Lou Sander ( talk) 21:54, 16 October 2014 (UTC) == I'm sure that makes a huge difference. == Edruezzi ( talk) 20:51, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
I don't have time to edit the content under each sub-heading in this article, but surely someone could help out here. There's need for a "criticism" section, and all of the other sections need to be cleaned up removing all references to "Critics say", "Mark Potok and Heidi Beirich... say", "They have also stated that", etc.
Just look at the "Ideology" section and try to argue that this article's balanced in its approach. "The Anti-Defamation League describes American Renaissance as a "white supremacist journal"" - followed by more criticism of American Renaissance without a single reference to what AmRen say hey believe. I'd argue that there should be NO reference to what the ADL and the SPLC think of them in this section at all, but at the very least you should MENTION what their mission-goal is. The section is dedicated to their ideology, for Christ's sake! Here, read the "What We Believe" section and use this as a sourced piece describing what AmRen state they believe http://www.amren.com/about/
Absolutely ridiculous. If this isn't fixed by someone else in the next few days, I'll try to work on this over the weekend to clean the entire article up. To reiterate, it's pretty obvious this article deserves a criticism section and the current layout of the article (i.e., have a focus on criticism of AmRen in EVERY section of the article) needs to be completely reformatted to minimise all reference to the ADL, SPLC, etc. outside of this criticism section and the introductory paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maring HS ( talk • contribs) 19:56, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
I agree this article is very WP:POV, also I restored her
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but then also changed it to February. Connor Machiavelli ( talk) 00:00, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
Well, Grayfell, it's actually WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT to revert my edits, because I am removing material based off of WP:NOR. Connor Machiavelli ( talk) 08:40, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
That source from the post-gazette seems to quote the Intelligence Report out of nothing. That's not a reliable source. What to do is quit labeling this as KKK, on Wikipedia, it is even stated that Jared Taylor is not anti-Jewish. Connor Machiavelli ( talk) 09:24, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
Sundayclose, you just reverted my edit. post-gazette is not a reliable source for this, as it seems they're quoting the Intelligence Report out of nothing about American Renaissance being for some sort of KKK. If the Intelligence Report actually said it, then find out they did and source that showing they actually said it, not just a claim they did. Connor Machiavelli ( talk) 20:13, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
Alright, and if I can prove it, then it's WP:NOR. Also the SPLC is considered a reliable source for whatever reason, but I agree it's not a reliable source for this article if we want a neutral article that isn't POV. Connor Machiavelli ( talk) 20:51, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm talking about if the information is kept from Post-Gazette even if I disproved that the Intellectual Report said it, then that'd be WP:NOR. Post-Gazette contributes to WP:POV on this anyways. Connor Machiavelli ( talk) 21:03, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
WP:POV tag was removed again. We have not yet reached a consensus, editors, please refrain from doing so until the decision is made. I support Ideology being worked on and it being made clear exactly what the American Renaissance, and who Jared Taylor, is, it's also important what they identify as, and that's race realist, and I support race-realist or racialist. Let's pick one for the article, and also include what they identify as. Connor Machiavelli ( talk) 23:36, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
This is patentedly false. One can believe in race and not be racist. Have you been to East Asia? I wouldn't call them very racist, and yet they all accept race as a scientific fact over there (or at least, most do, especially in China and Korea).
Ignoring the fact that race realism =/= racism, I'd also like to second the notion that SPLC is an inappropriate source to use on any related article to race issues, since they're an extremely biased and compromised source that has even been discredited by the FBI.
Also, googlin' sources to support whatever claim it is you wish to support doesn't work around here. Just wanted to point that out. Solntsa90 ( talk) 07:18, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
For the benefit of everyone else who's in this discussion, or who may stop on by in the future, let's be clear here: User:Solntsa90 commenting above has decided as of late to become my own personal little stalker. This is the FIFTH article that he has followed me to in the last week or so in order to either revert me or try to stir shit up on the talk page, because of a disagreement we had on a completely different and unrelated article about two weeks ago (for which he got topic banned). All five of these articles are articles that he has *never* edited before. He is just being a WP:STALKER and a general immature creep, who's engaged in WP:HOUNDING. If I actually gave a fig, I'd report'em - and still might - but as of now I'm feeling a bit lazy (and somewhat amused) by it. But of course that doesn't mean that I - nor anyone else - should take anything they say seriously. Just ignore him and DFTT. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 07:53, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
Conno M, no the term "race realism" should not be used to describe AmRen because 1) that is not how sources describe it and 2) it's a bullshit term which mostly only racist use and Wikipedia's not in the business of legitimizing racist double-talk. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 07:53, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
Marek, you sound insane, especially for your accusations of "Hounding". Perhaps you should take a break from wikipedia for a while, as you've been getting into a lot of editor disputes lately that haven't all ended very well in your favour.
Attempting to railroad me and say I have nothing to contribute due to your imaginary "hounding" is risible. I will continue to contribute to these articles as I please, and perhaps you should recuse yourself for taking this too personally. Solntsa90 ( talk) 08:20, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
Addendum: Ignoring Marek (as I'm sure everyone does)'s little driveby ad hominem, racialism is a fine, and I'd stick with that, since that's more what American Renaissance actually is. Solntsa90 ( talk) 08:20, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm not here because of WP:HOUNDING, I'm here because the quality of this article (along with other articles related to the right-wing) are of genuine interest to me in terms of how we can improve.
Now speaking of WP:HOUNDING, How is it that you came to edit the article on RT News and David Irving so shortly after I have? Pot, meet kettle. Solntsa90 ( talk) 08:30, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
I have zero disagreement with this edit, and would support it. Solntsa90 ( talk) 08:40, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
I personally vouch for the term to be racialism, since that's what AmRen is, not necessarily racist (That is to say: they believe in a biological basis for racism, but that they don't necessarily subscribe to racist beliefs, i.e, racialism). Solntsa90 ( talk)
I note that an editor has made the false claim that the SPLC has been discredited by the FBI. The FBI's webpage "Hate Crimes—Overview" [7] says "The FBI has forged partnerships nationally and locally with many civil rights organizations to establish rapport, share information, address concerns, and cooperate in solving problems. These groups include such organizations as the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, American Association of University Women, Anti-Defamation League, Asian American Justice Center, Hindu American Foundation, Human Rights Campaign, The Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights, National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, National Center for Transgender Equality, National Council of Jewish Women, National Disability Rights Network, National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, National Organization for Women, Sikh American Legal Defense and Education Fund, The Sikh Coalition, Southern Poverty Law Center, and many others." This page [8] calls it an outreach partner and has a link to the SPLC website. It's easy to search the FBI website, dragging up old out-dated events which were misrepresented (it was simply dropped from this page [9] which now doesn't mention any groups) is misleading at best. Doug Weller talk 15:38, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
This article is nothing but a description of Amren through the view of SPLC and Anti-Defamation League. No attempts at objectivity was made during the writing of this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.18.124.243 ( talk) 14:19, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
The ADL is hardly a non-biased NPOV source, I'm removing it. Volksgeist 14:38, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
I have made some modifications to the article as it previously seemed to merely reiterate the POV of AR itself, without properly contextualizing it. -- Betamod 03:13, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the "criticism" section and some of the links to hostile entities, since the article is under no obligation to give attention to the opposition. Irvine White Nationalist
"Irvine White Nationalist" has removed links to source material that he alleges are hostile to AR, yet since they are now gone, we have only his word for it and can't decide for ourselves. Articles have no obligations but editors of articles do have obligations and one of them is to give space to contrary opinions. It is self evident that an article on just about any subject should include references to all significant controversy about the subject and clearly AR has garnered a fair amount of controversy so why can't its white nationalist supporters be honest about that? What are you afraid of "Irvine White Nationalist"?
It is NOT self edvident that an article on AR also include all references to contrary opinions. Especially when said "opinions" are only crude defamation and not reasoned argument. Please refrain from making such suggestions in future, or I shall report you. - Irvine White Nationalist 17 June 2008
There is a misleading statement in the first part of the article. It says that "neo-Nazis and KKKers" were kicked out for anti-semitism. While it is true that certian persons of this type were kicked out, the sentence as written implies - falsly - that neo-nazis and kkk members don't associate (or are no longer allowed to associate) with the magazine in general. I'm going to take that out, beginning with the last comma. The refence for the rest of the sentence will remain in place. Without this edit, the article is rightly NPOV. -adropofreason
This article is a parody of itself. A left-wing exudation based on newspaper's columns of a left-wing journalist. What about mentioning the "facts and statistics derived from sometimes reputable sources, but taken out of context"? I would be curious. Centrum99 12:51, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Despite what the article claims, Amren is just a website, it hasn't published a magazine since January 2012 (http://www.amren.com/ar/2012/index.html). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.96.52.218 ( talk) 19:02, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Why is this article filled with references to racism and white separatism, but the NCF's article has few to none? Tim Long 04:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
“19:50, 25 June 2007 Spylab (Talk | contribs) m (6,458 bytes) (deleted names that don't have their own Wikipedia articles)” http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=American_Renaissance_%28magazine%29&action=history
Since you are constantly reverting edits, and rationalizing such conduct based on a non-existent rule which I have traced back to User:Will Beback, who invented it at 22:26 on 20 June, in order to violate WP:NPOV, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Comradesandalio#Notable_contributors ) you too are guilty of violating WP:NPOV, as well as WP:POINT, WP:HARASSMENT, and WP:CIVIL, and not only engaging in edit warring, but engaging in a proxy edit war on behalf of User:Will Beback. As other editors have told User:Will Beback, so I tell you: Don’t be a dick. 70.23.167.160 23:04, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
The title of that list is "Notable contributors". If a person isn't notable enough to have a Wikipedia article, then they aren't notable enough to be on the list. Also, without references or their own Wikipedia articles, there is no way to verify that the people are actually contributors to the publication. Anyone could add a random name for whatever reason. Spylab 11:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
That as a proxy in a stalking campaign you have the gall to vandalize this article, lock it down, and claim that I was vandalizing it, is nothing short of obscene. 70.23.164.215 05:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
(cur) (last) 15:38, 29 June 2007 Jayjg (Talk | contribs) m (74,249 bytes) (Reverted edits by 70.23.164.215 (talk) to last revision by Eleland) http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:Jayjg&action=history
At 05:10, 29 June, in response to [User:Jayjg]]’s participation in a stalking campaign against me, in which capacity he vandalized the American Renaissance article, I posted “Paging George Orwell (American Renaissance)” on his talk page. Ten hours and 28 minutes later, User:Jayjg vandalized my observation, sending it down the memory hole. Something tells me that he does not take his irony supplements. 70.23.164.215 04:09, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, it seems to me that since I last edited this article it has been systematically obscured by the removal of relevant information by people who seem to be supporters of the opinions promoted by AR. I can't say that I agree with AR's ideology but I did try to be POV neutral in my contributions. In contrast to my contributions, the more recent edits are transparently biased towards AR and anyone who reads it can tell that it's skewed. The vandals are not fooling anyone! However what I find perplexing is why they would seek to obscure AR's association with other racialist/racist/racial separatist organizations and persons unless they are ashamed of said associations. Yet if they are ashamed of beliefs they hold, then why do they hold them? That seems rather futile, as well as dishonest, cowardly and stupid. Why not have the guts to engage in an honest discourse about their beliefs, otherwise what hope do they have of convincing anyone else of their validity? -- Betamod 01:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
The title of this article should be "Criticism of American Renaissance" since all it does it list the criticisms of the magazine. Many Wikipedia topics have "Criticism" as a subtopic, but if you made one for this article, there wouldn't be anything left outside the subtopic. Tpellman 19:42, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
-- Betamod 20:16, 25 July 2007 (UTC)"
I notice that a new anon IP has added a few more unsourced statements and also more citations from the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) -- most definitely not a reliable third-party source (emphasis on "third-party"). In fact, under the circumstances, I would consider it a partisan political source. Attributing a brief citation to the ADL and their view of the magazine is fine, of course. But constantly citing the ADL in such a small article borders on WP:UNDUE, especially when the reader is not always made aware in the text that it's the ADL stating these things. Unless someone can think of a good policy-oriented reason why so much should be sourced from the ADL and not reliable, neutral, third-party sources (specifically newspapers or academic articles), most (not all) of the ADL commentary should be removed, in my opinion. I don't think we're being neutral by constantly adding negative commentary from the same partisan sources. J Readings ( talk) 19:00, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
While I don't personally doubt the racist nature of this magazine, I'm not sure about the line "widely discredited the magazine's content as far-right and racist in the eyes of most mainstream sources" without some sort of cite. The only media source I could find was indymedia, and I'm not really going to call them 'mainstream.' A cite from a major media player or two would be useful if this line is going to stay in the article. Random name ( talk) 07:06, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Here, as elsewhere, your method is transparent: you delete anything that fails to cast the object of your scorn in a contemptuous light [WP:WEIGHT], remove NPOV language [WP:NPOV], and re-insert language that is laughably POV. Had I added pathetic material lambasting the subject, you would have left it in, as you have always done with other such material.
You care so little about respecting [WP’s] editorial rules and guidelines that you have repeatedly reverted stylistic, grammatical, and spelling corrections, and have re-inserted both errors and just plain lousy writing. The material I added isn’t off-topic; the subject’s responses to its critics are more on-topic than the criticisms in the article, because the criticisms were variously dishonest (the subject did not devote “some issues” to theological justifications for racial segregation) and written in inflammatory, POV language. And if you honestly believed that I violated [WP:WEIGHT], you would have re-written the passage in question, making it more succinct. I will not waste additional time doing so, because you will simply delete whatever I replace it with, just as you wasted all of the time I put into editing the article, in the first place. You clearly have a passion for wasting other people’s time and labor.
And don’t tell me I’m guilty of violating [WP:AGF], since one is not obliged to AGF in the case of someone who has repeatedly, flagrantly shown bad faith. You don’t even try to give the impression of editing in good faith, and are thus the embodiment of the POV warrior. Please cease and desist. 24.90.201.232 ( talk) 04:40, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Just a couple of comments. The phrase "Reminiscent of W.E.B. DuBois, the magazine's own page claims," violates NOR and NPOV. As to "racial realist," who uses this term, and how notable is it? I never heard of it. "Racialist" clearly applies to any separatist or supremist view. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:41, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
As I was saying, the point to which I object the most is the introduction of disparaging comments about Wikipedia in the article. While it's alright to say AmRen criticized Wikipedia, the long section is off-topic and disparaging of Wikipedia editors to boot. If you absolutely want to put it somewhere, Criticisms of Wikipedia would be the place.
Also, in the talk page of Race realism, it is mentioned that the difference between Race realism and Racialism is that the latter is usually promoting ideas of (in this case White) separatism. The founder of AmRen, Jared Taylor did promote such ideas, so I'm not sure that it's really a race realist rather than a racialist publication, if it is true to its founder's ideologies.
I am unsure about the removal of the paragraph related to the early years of the magazine, when it tried to assert some credibility among conservatives. Also, the labeling of both the ADL and the SPLC as "controversial" need attribution. Who called them that?
Also, to affirm that "just one" and not "some" (which may be very few) issues used a theological argument would need for you to have read all issues of the magazine, cover to cover.
The links AmRen has are with organizations and individuals involved in a few specific areas of controversy, usually ideologically or racially-related. I don't see the problem with being specific here.
And of, course, you're right that it's the Anti-Defamation League, and not the Ant-Defamation League.
Now, if you could pleas explain your reasoning, and try to keep this as WP:CIVIL as I've tried, maybe we have a chance of solving our differences.-- Ramdrake ( talk) 22:59, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
In the article on the ADL, can one bring sources from American Renaissance? If not, what makes the ADL more reliable than American Renaissance other than its popularity? -- Comradesandalio ( talk) 23:20, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
ADL can be source for ADL claims that (when is relevant what they claim) but not for Somebody-who-ADL-doesn´t-like is.... Promoting ADL, SPLC... and flinging dirt at AR, VDARE... is problem of systematical bias at English Wikipedia. -- Dezidor ( talk) 18:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
This material has been deleted twice. Could we get an explanation for why sourced criticism is being removed? Will Beback talk 19:36, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
The article states that:
It is rather disingenuous to imply AmRen is anti-semitic because it publishes negative letters about Jews from readers, considering that AmRen publishes all letters sent to them in their "Letters From Readers" section. For instance, in the March 2007 issue, in response to the Halifax incident AmRen published this letter:
Should we also add to the article that AmRen publishes letters supporting violence against "racists" as well?-- XO^10 ( talk) 22:04, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
This section was written in a very biased manner, with more space devoted to the fact that Taylor appeared on the Stormfront radio program than to the issues raised by the conference shutdown. I have tried to balance it out a little bit, without removing any of the existing information.
Posted by TimMagic —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimMagic ( talk • contribs) 07:27, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
An abridged conference was held and here is a link to videos of some of the speakers:
http://www.youtube.com/user/jewamongyou?feature=mhw4#p/u/16/RUZF1c2pTxE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.20.25.22 ( talk) 04:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
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I moved this name here from the list of notable contributors. The three citations all appear to be copied material from a newspaper, with no indication that they are even authorized. I believe what the site does is copy news items of interest, snipping them to avoid copyright violations. I see no sign that the writer has intended to contribute to the site or the magazine directly. Will Beback talk 13:47, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
An RfC:
Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the
Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. –
MrX
16:18, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
An IP editor wants the article to say, in WP voice, that the magazine is white supremicist. It's much better to have what the article currently says, which is The Anti-Defamation League describes American Renaissance as a "white supremacist journal". St Anselm ( talk) 22:27, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
I removed the clause "which has been described as 'virulently racist'" in the opening sentence. I reviewed the source for the "virulently racist" characterization and can't see how it merits inclusion. Here is the source. As you can see, this is a one-off remark about AR used to introduce a quote by Jared Taylor. Moreover, it's the only mention of AR and Taylor in the entire book. Context matters. Home-Grown Hate: Gender and Organized Racism might be a good source for "new and exciting scholarship" on whether the so called white-supremacist movement is "gendered," but it's completely inappropriate for this article. Dmcw127 ( talk) 03:02, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Please don't accuse me of white washing. I am trying to have a constructive discussion about improving this article. I wasn't trying to imply my prior comments are authoritative. I was just trying to avoid repeating myself. My position is the article shouldn't rely on bare assertions calling AmRen "racist" or "white supremacist." The Atlantic Wire article is about National Review and a person named Robert Weissberg; Home-Grown Hate is a book about "Gender and Organized Racism." Each source makes precisely one statement about AmRen. Each statement is peripheral to the article and unsupported. Using these sources amounts to citing arbitrary instances of name-calling because ipse dixit. According to WP:RS, "Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is an appropriate source for that content."
We should be using the most reliable and comprehensive sources we can find to establish a neutral overview, not whatever errant remarks we can dig up by googling: "AmRen" + "white supremacist". Such practice is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. One possible source that I mentioned before (and will repeat here) is Carol Swain's book The New White Nationalism in America: Its Challenge to Integration. Unlike the sources noted above, Swain provides a substantial treatment of AmRen, i.e., more than one sentence. Based on this and other reliable sources, I think AmRen can be fairly characterized as "white nationalist" or "white separatist" but white supremacist appears unfounded. I've read a couple articles in AmRen as you suggested and I don't understand why you feel "white supremacist is a pretty accurate description" or Amren is "devoted to white supremacism." White supremacy is a loaded term that connotes extremist groups like the Ku Klux Klan and the Aryan Brotherhood.
As the article stands, the only information in the lead is how AmRen "has been described as a white supremacist publication." This strikes me as a rather tendentious framing for an encyclopedia entry, and I welcome more discussion on how we should proceed. Dmcw127 ( talk) 20:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
I moved the POV description and references to a new "Criticism" section. 67.6.98.234 ( talk) 04:34, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
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American Renaissance is now just a website, it no longer has a print version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.101.57.183 ( talk) 04:29, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The Ideology part is a pure invention and defamation. We could say the same about the ADL that it is a Jewish supremacist organization using African Americans against Whites.-- 109.23.159.201 ( talk) 21:06, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Should be worked on. http://www.amren.com/about/ Connor Machiavelli ( talk) 23:21, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
The article name talks about a magazine. The magazine no longer exists; the subject of the article is now a website. Somebody who knows how to fix this should fix it. Lou Sander ( talk) 21:54, 16 October 2014 (UTC) == I'm sure that makes a huge difference. == Edruezzi ( talk) 20:51, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
I don't have time to edit the content under each sub-heading in this article, but surely someone could help out here. There's need for a "criticism" section, and all of the other sections need to be cleaned up removing all references to "Critics say", "Mark Potok and Heidi Beirich... say", "They have also stated that", etc.
Just look at the "Ideology" section and try to argue that this article's balanced in its approach. "The Anti-Defamation League describes American Renaissance as a "white supremacist journal"" - followed by more criticism of American Renaissance without a single reference to what AmRen say hey believe. I'd argue that there should be NO reference to what the ADL and the SPLC think of them in this section at all, but at the very least you should MENTION what their mission-goal is. The section is dedicated to their ideology, for Christ's sake! Here, read the "What We Believe" section and use this as a sourced piece describing what AmRen state they believe http://www.amren.com/about/
Absolutely ridiculous. If this isn't fixed by someone else in the next few days, I'll try to work on this over the weekend to clean the entire article up. To reiterate, it's pretty obvious this article deserves a criticism section and the current layout of the article (i.e., have a focus on criticism of AmRen in EVERY section of the article) needs to be completely reformatted to minimise all reference to the ADL, SPLC, etc. outside of this criticism section and the introductory paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maring HS ( talk • contribs) 19:56, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
I agree this article is very WP:POV, also I restored her
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but then also changed it to February. Connor Machiavelli ( talk) 00:00, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
Well, Grayfell, it's actually WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT to revert my edits, because I am removing material based off of WP:NOR. Connor Machiavelli ( talk) 08:40, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
That source from the post-gazette seems to quote the Intelligence Report out of nothing. That's not a reliable source. What to do is quit labeling this as KKK, on Wikipedia, it is even stated that Jared Taylor is not anti-Jewish. Connor Machiavelli ( talk) 09:24, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
Sundayclose, you just reverted my edit. post-gazette is not a reliable source for this, as it seems they're quoting the Intelligence Report out of nothing about American Renaissance being for some sort of KKK. If the Intelligence Report actually said it, then find out they did and source that showing they actually said it, not just a claim they did. Connor Machiavelli ( talk) 20:13, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
Alright, and if I can prove it, then it's WP:NOR. Also the SPLC is considered a reliable source for whatever reason, but I agree it's not a reliable source for this article if we want a neutral article that isn't POV. Connor Machiavelli ( talk) 20:51, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm talking about if the information is kept from Post-Gazette even if I disproved that the Intellectual Report said it, then that'd be WP:NOR. Post-Gazette contributes to WP:POV on this anyways. Connor Machiavelli ( talk) 21:03, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
WP:POV tag was removed again. We have not yet reached a consensus, editors, please refrain from doing so until the decision is made. I support Ideology being worked on and it being made clear exactly what the American Renaissance, and who Jared Taylor, is, it's also important what they identify as, and that's race realist, and I support race-realist or racialist. Let's pick one for the article, and also include what they identify as. Connor Machiavelli ( talk) 23:36, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
This is patentedly false. One can believe in race and not be racist. Have you been to East Asia? I wouldn't call them very racist, and yet they all accept race as a scientific fact over there (or at least, most do, especially in China and Korea).
Ignoring the fact that race realism =/= racism, I'd also like to second the notion that SPLC is an inappropriate source to use on any related article to race issues, since they're an extremely biased and compromised source that has even been discredited by the FBI.
Also, googlin' sources to support whatever claim it is you wish to support doesn't work around here. Just wanted to point that out. Solntsa90 ( talk) 07:18, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
For the benefit of everyone else who's in this discussion, or who may stop on by in the future, let's be clear here: User:Solntsa90 commenting above has decided as of late to become my own personal little stalker. This is the FIFTH article that he has followed me to in the last week or so in order to either revert me or try to stir shit up on the talk page, because of a disagreement we had on a completely different and unrelated article about two weeks ago (for which he got topic banned). All five of these articles are articles that he has *never* edited before. He is just being a WP:STALKER and a general immature creep, who's engaged in WP:HOUNDING. If I actually gave a fig, I'd report'em - and still might - but as of now I'm feeling a bit lazy (and somewhat amused) by it. But of course that doesn't mean that I - nor anyone else - should take anything they say seriously. Just ignore him and DFTT. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 07:53, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
Conno M, no the term "race realism" should not be used to describe AmRen because 1) that is not how sources describe it and 2) it's a bullshit term which mostly only racist use and Wikipedia's not in the business of legitimizing racist double-talk. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 07:53, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
Marek, you sound insane, especially for your accusations of "Hounding". Perhaps you should take a break from wikipedia for a while, as you've been getting into a lot of editor disputes lately that haven't all ended very well in your favour.
Attempting to railroad me and say I have nothing to contribute due to your imaginary "hounding" is risible. I will continue to contribute to these articles as I please, and perhaps you should recuse yourself for taking this too personally. Solntsa90 ( talk) 08:20, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
Addendum: Ignoring Marek (as I'm sure everyone does)'s little driveby ad hominem, racialism is a fine, and I'd stick with that, since that's more what American Renaissance actually is. Solntsa90 ( talk) 08:20, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm not here because of WP:HOUNDING, I'm here because the quality of this article (along with other articles related to the right-wing) are of genuine interest to me in terms of how we can improve.
Now speaking of WP:HOUNDING, How is it that you came to edit the article on RT News and David Irving so shortly after I have? Pot, meet kettle. Solntsa90 ( talk) 08:30, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
I have zero disagreement with this edit, and would support it. Solntsa90 ( talk) 08:40, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
I personally vouch for the term to be racialism, since that's what AmRen is, not necessarily racist (That is to say: they believe in a biological basis for racism, but that they don't necessarily subscribe to racist beliefs, i.e, racialism). Solntsa90 ( talk)
I note that an editor has made the false claim that the SPLC has been discredited by the FBI. The FBI's webpage "Hate Crimes—Overview" [7] says "The FBI has forged partnerships nationally and locally with many civil rights organizations to establish rapport, share information, address concerns, and cooperate in solving problems. These groups include such organizations as the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, American Association of University Women, Anti-Defamation League, Asian American Justice Center, Hindu American Foundation, Human Rights Campaign, The Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights, National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, National Center for Transgender Equality, National Council of Jewish Women, National Disability Rights Network, National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, National Organization for Women, Sikh American Legal Defense and Education Fund, The Sikh Coalition, Southern Poverty Law Center, and many others." This page [8] calls it an outreach partner and has a link to the SPLC website. It's easy to search the FBI website, dragging up old out-dated events which were misrepresented (it was simply dropped from this page [9] which now doesn't mention any groups) is misleading at best. Doug Weller talk 15:38, 6 February 2016 (UTC)