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![]() | See also: Talk:Names for United States citizens |
While pointing out the origin of the 'controversy' in misapplication of foreign (particularly Spanish) usage to English, the article still has several flaws aside from the general need for cleanup and formatting. First (and less importantly) yanqui and gringo are not simple synonyms for norteamericanos (and, I'm just curious here, do Canadian Hispanophones get in such a huff over that usage?) but are pejoratives, albeit sometimes used lovingly or jokingly. - LlywelynII ( talk) 23:41, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Second and more importantly, the article makes numerous specific claims that "American" is only or primarily used as a synonym for "citizen of the United States of America" by speakers of American English. E.g.,
is simply untrue: "American" is by far the most common American demonym in all dialects of English and specification of any other use must be made in all of them. A Canadian, Briton, or Aussie speaking about "American English" will never be talking about or even imagine he could be confused with talking about "Canadian English" or "Latin American English." Similarly, while there are various synonyms for Americans (e.g., British Yank, Aussie Seppo) that could be included into the article, they are typically informal and no native English speaker refers to Latin Americans as (unqualified) Americans precisely because the word refers to the United States. Article claims or assumptions that this originates from or is exclusive to American dialect are unsupportable, misleading, and POV. - LlywelynII ( talk) 23:41, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_for_U.S._citizens -- Extrabatteries ( talk) 23:38, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Native English speakers use the term "American" almost exclusively to refer to a citizen of the United States, which they almost exclusively refer to as "America". This is not a Spanish or Portugese Wiki article. It is an English Language Wikipedia Article and the Native Speakers of English despite how Spanish speakers from Latin America may feel about this topic do not get to insert an Anti-American bias here by attempting to impose their linguistic standard on people who don't speak Spanish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.217.83.241 ( talk) 14:27, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Ok some in the discussion here are quite convinced how the term is used in all of the English world. The reference [1] in the article to confirm this is however still with a book about "Standard American English". When you look it up it explicitely references the position of the people of the United States. So the argument that this meaning appplies to all of the English language speakers is not well founded by the references. Would be nice if a better reference could be given. I just looked up Meriam-Webster and on position 1. and 2. it mentions different meanings for the term than put forward in this article. On the other hand my Oxford learning dictionary just mentions the meaning which agrees with this article. Jocme ( talk) 06:30, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
First, I have no idea why this should fall under the United Nations usage category. Second, two of the sub-sections "Spain and Hispanic America" and "Portugal and Brazil" cite nothing relevant to the political and cultural views of the English word "American" which is what this page is about. These two sections should be moved into a new category regarding American (word) in foreign languages. Otherwise its acts on the assumption that American = Americano which these two sections refute as a false friend.-- Extrabatteries ( talk) 21:12, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Why was the reference to Richard Amerike removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcchat66 ( talk • contribs) 04:58, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Is this really neutral phrasing?
"In modern English, Americans generally refers to residents of the United States; among native English speakers this usage is almost universal, with any other use of the term requiring specification.[1] However, this default use has been the source of complaint by some residents of Latin America who feel that using the term solely for the United States misappropriates it.[2][3] They argue instead that "American" should be broadened to include people from anywhere in North or South America, not just the United States; these critics admit their proposed usage is uncommon."
This makes it seems like the only opponents to the term are "some residents of Latin America". People from other parts of the world can (and do) debate and disagree about the usage of the word "American", shouldn't this be acknowledged too? And what is the source for the statement that "these critics admit their proposed usage is uncommon"? Taking a look at the source number [1], it only seems to discuss what people from the U.S. call themselves, not "native English speakers". Indeed, the fact that there is a large debate about the meaning of "America/American" indicates otherwise to me. 85.229.199.235 ( talk) 00:41, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
In addition, isn't this extremely outdated? The sources it lists stem from 1947 [2] and 1983 [3]. Is it even accurate to leave this in there when the previous sentence is talking about 'In modern English'.
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As my five recent edits were rolled back by BilCat without explanation, I figure I should take the matter to the talk page. Regarding the statement, "I gave an explanation - it's not my fault you ignored it", with due respect to BilCat, that is not the case. His or her edit summary read, "Reverted undiscussed changes to citation format, other unnecessary changes". An edit having neither been previously discussed nor necessary is not in itself a reason for reversion. But even that aside, I would object to the assertion that, e.g., the correction of entirely inaccurately attributed quotations is "unnecessary". And there was no particularly substantial change to the citation format given that we are already using a system of footnotes with a "Works cited" list.
That being the case, with what do you take issue, BilCat, and what led you to believe the five edits to warrant using rollback? 142.161.81.20 ( talk) 23:18, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
Primarily two things, but the first is so major that it wasn't possible to just undo those alone.That wasn't the most major change made by the edits, but regardless, it's always impossible to reverse any particular changes alone. And that doesn't explain why rollback was used on a good-faith edit.
Per WP:CITEVAR, "Editors should not attempt to change an article's established citation style merely on the grounds of personal preference, to make it match other articles, or without first seeking consensus for the change." You may think your changes were minor, but the [ sic] are not. Get a consensus first.What concerns do you have, in that case? And regarding that provision of WP:CITEVAR, nothing precluded "seeking consensus" through editing if there were no particular concerns raised.
Second, some of your copy edits changes are improper. Which in particular? Regarding U.S. vs US, neither was in consistent use as required by the MOS, hence why the change was made. 142.161.81.20 ( talk) 23:46, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
As to the citation style, it's up to you to give a good reason for changing it, and to get a consensus for it.As WP:BRD indicates, "Before reverting a change to an article in the absence of explicit consensus, be sure you actually have a disagreement with the content of the bold edit (and can express that disagreement), not merely a concern that someone else might disagree with the edit." Without that, it's hard to know which aspect of it to justify given that I haven't the faintest idea what your concern is. Is it the use of {{ sfn}}? Or something else?
As to U.S./US, there were more instances of the former than the latter, so you should have defaulted to that style.Why would we default to U.S. when WP:NOTUSA provides that we should "use US in an article with other country abbreviations"?
As to US/U.S., remove the other abbreviations then.Why? 142.161.81.20 ( talk) 00:21, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
I remember coming to this debate back in the 2000s as a native English speaker and being flummoxed to find out that non-native speakers were trying to redefine words in someone else's language, lol. They managed to cause much angst and wrangling for a long time, as the history for this page attests, but it's nice to know that, as is always the case in life, the troublemakers eventually tired and went away, and when they did, simple fact was able to prevail.
This page, in its current form in 2019, now strikes all the right notes. It acknowledges that this tempest in a teapot exists, while also being intellectually honest about the fact that, endogenously within the native-speaker community, THERE IS NO CONTROVERSY. It was only when non-natives tried to speak someone else's language in a culturally illiterate way that there was ever a problem to begin with.
This is the English wiki, and as such, it simply DOES NOT MATTER what people in other languages say or think. If it bothers you, feel free to go add the relevant info on those respective languages' wikis -- and leave this one alone! =P — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.61.13.126 ( talk) 11:16, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
This is an article where posters from the USA have been going berserk. Even if in the USA a American denotes a person from the USA, is that the usage in all English speaking countries? Pointing to a sources that provides "Standard American English" is a bit absurd, because that denotes only part of the English speaking world and Wikipedia is an international Encyclopedia. I do not find the definition of an American as a citizen of the USA as the only definition in for example the Britannica or Merriam-Webster. The Definition of American as being from the Americas, or South and North America, or simple America comes always before the indication of an USA citizen. It seems to me that it is quite a bit of arrogance behind claiming that an American denotes an citizen of the USA only. One also has to look at the usage of American in different languages and countries and not only in the limited area of the USA. Jochum ( talk) 06:01, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | See also: Talk:Names for United States citizens |
While pointing out the origin of the 'controversy' in misapplication of foreign (particularly Spanish) usage to English, the article still has several flaws aside from the general need for cleanup and formatting. First (and less importantly) yanqui and gringo are not simple synonyms for norteamericanos (and, I'm just curious here, do Canadian Hispanophones get in such a huff over that usage?) but are pejoratives, albeit sometimes used lovingly or jokingly. - LlywelynII ( talk) 23:41, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
Second and more importantly, the article makes numerous specific claims that "American" is only or primarily used as a synonym for "citizen of the United States of America" by speakers of American English. E.g.,
is simply untrue: "American" is by far the most common American demonym in all dialects of English and specification of any other use must be made in all of them. A Canadian, Briton, or Aussie speaking about "American English" will never be talking about or even imagine he could be confused with talking about "Canadian English" or "Latin American English." Similarly, while there are various synonyms for Americans (e.g., British Yank, Aussie Seppo) that could be included into the article, they are typically informal and no native English speaker refers to Latin Americans as (unqualified) Americans precisely because the word refers to the United States. Article claims or assumptions that this originates from or is exclusive to American dialect are unsupportable, misleading, and POV. - LlywelynII ( talk) 23:41, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_for_U.S._citizens -- Extrabatteries ( talk) 23:38, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Native English speakers use the term "American" almost exclusively to refer to a citizen of the United States, which they almost exclusively refer to as "America". This is not a Spanish or Portugese Wiki article. It is an English Language Wikipedia Article and the Native Speakers of English despite how Spanish speakers from Latin America may feel about this topic do not get to insert an Anti-American bias here by attempting to impose their linguistic standard on people who don't speak Spanish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.217.83.241 ( talk) 14:27, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
Ok some in the discussion here are quite convinced how the term is used in all of the English world. The reference [1] in the article to confirm this is however still with a book about "Standard American English". When you look it up it explicitely references the position of the people of the United States. So the argument that this meaning appplies to all of the English language speakers is not well founded by the references. Would be nice if a better reference could be given. I just looked up Meriam-Webster and on position 1. and 2. it mentions different meanings for the term than put forward in this article. On the other hand my Oxford learning dictionary just mentions the meaning which agrees with this article. Jocme ( talk) 06:30, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
First, I have no idea why this should fall under the United Nations usage category. Second, two of the sub-sections "Spain and Hispanic America" and "Portugal and Brazil" cite nothing relevant to the political and cultural views of the English word "American" which is what this page is about. These two sections should be moved into a new category regarding American (word) in foreign languages. Otherwise its acts on the assumption that American = Americano which these two sections refute as a false friend.-- Extrabatteries ( talk) 21:12, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Why was the reference to Richard Amerike removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcchat66 ( talk • contribs) 04:58, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Is this really neutral phrasing?
"In modern English, Americans generally refers to residents of the United States; among native English speakers this usage is almost universal, with any other use of the term requiring specification.[1] However, this default use has been the source of complaint by some residents of Latin America who feel that using the term solely for the United States misappropriates it.[2][3] They argue instead that "American" should be broadened to include people from anywhere in North or South America, not just the United States; these critics admit their proposed usage is uncommon."
This makes it seems like the only opponents to the term are "some residents of Latin America". People from other parts of the world can (and do) debate and disagree about the usage of the word "American", shouldn't this be acknowledged too? And what is the source for the statement that "these critics admit their proposed usage is uncommon"? Taking a look at the source number [1], it only seems to discuss what people from the U.S. call themselves, not "native English speakers". Indeed, the fact that there is a large debate about the meaning of "America/American" indicates otherwise to me. 85.229.199.235 ( talk) 00:41, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
In addition, isn't this extremely outdated? The sources it lists stem from 1947 [2] and 1983 [3]. Is it even accurate to leave this in there when the previous sentence is talking about 'In modern English'.
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As my five recent edits were rolled back by BilCat without explanation, I figure I should take the matter to the talk page. Regarding the statement, "I gave an explanation - it's not my fault you ignored it", with due respect to BilCat, that is not the case. His or her edit summary read, "Reverted undiscussed changes to citation format, other unnecessary changes". An edit having neither been previously discussed nor necessary is not in itself a reason for reversion. But even that aside, I would object to the assertion that, e.g., the correction of entirely inaccurately attributed quotations is "unnecessary". And there was no particularly substantial change to the citation format given that we are already using a system of footnotes with a "Works cited" list.
That being the case, with what do you take issue, BilCat, and what led you to believe the five edits to warrant using rollback? 142.161.81.20 ( talk) 23:18, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
Primarily two things, but the first is so major that it wasn't possible to just undo those alone.That wasn't the most major change made by the edits, but regardless, it's always impossible to reverse any particular changes alone. And that doesn't explain why rollback was used on a good-faith edit.
Per WP:CITEVAR, "Editors should not attempt to change an article's established citation style merely on the grounds of personal preference, to make it match other articles, or without first seeking consensus for the change." You may think your changes were minor, but the [ sic] are not. Get a consensus first.What concerns do you have, in that case? And regarding that provision of WP:CITEVAR, nothing precluded "seeking consensus" through editing if there were no particular concerns raised.
Second, some of your copy edits changes are improper. Which in particular? Regarding U.S. vs US, neither was in consistent use as required by the MOS, hence why the change was made. 142.161.81.20 ( talk) 23:46, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
As to the citation style, it's up to you to give a good reason for changing it, and to get a consensus for it.As WP:BRD indicates, "Before reverting a change to an article in the absence of explicit consensus, be sure you actually have a disagreement with the content of the bold edit (and can express that disagreement), not merely a concern that someone else might disagree with the edit." Without that, it's hard to know which aspect of it to justify given that I haven't the faintest idea what your concern is. Is it the use of {{ sfn}}? Or something else?
As to U.S./US, there were more instances of the former than the latter, so you should have defaulted to that style.Why would we default to U.S. when WP:NOTUSA provides that we should "use US in an article with other country abbreviations"?
As to US/U.S., remove the other abbreviations then.Why? 142.161.81.20 ( talk) 00:21, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
I remember coming to this debate back in the 2000s as a native English speaker and being flummoxed to find out that non-native speakers were trying to redefine words in someone else's language, lol. They managed to cause much angst and wrangling for a long time, as the history for this page attests, but it's nice to know that, as is always the case in life, the troublemakers eventually tired and went away, and when they did, simple fact was able to prevail.
This page, in its current form in 2019, now strikes all the right notes. It acknowledges that this tempest in a teapot exists, while also being intellectually honest about the fact that, endogenously within the native-speaker community, THERE IS NO CONTROVERSY. It was only when non-natives tried to speak someone else's language in a culturally illiterate way that there was ever a problem to begin with.
This is the English wiki, and as such, it simply DOES NOT MATTER what people in other languages say or think. If it bothers you, feel free to go add the relevant info on those respective languages' wikis -- and leave this one alone! =P — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.61.13.126 ( talk) 11:16, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
This is an article where posters from the USA have been going berserk. Even if in the USA a American denotes a person from the USA, is that the usage in all English speaking countries? Pointing to a sources that provides "Standard American English" is a bit absurd, because that denotes only part of the English speaking world and Wikipedia is an international Encyclopedia. I do not find the definition of an American as a citizen of the USA as the only definition in for example the Britannica or Merriam-Webster. The Definition of American as being from the Americas, or South and North America, or simple America comes always before the indication of an USA citizen. It seems to me that it is quite a bit of arrogance behind claiming that an American denotes an citizen of the USA only. One also has to look at the usage of American in different languages and countries and not only in the limited area of the USA. Jochum ( talk) 06:01, 8 May 2023 (UTC)