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This article is in dire need of expansion so I have expanded it and added some references. Any help with references would be great. Kephera975 21:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I disagree. If we were to follow the logic of this argument to its logical conclusion, then user IPSOS would also be agruing that the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn article should be truncated merely to Golden Dawn as well. The only possible reason that I can see for truncating the name of the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega to Alpha et Omega and not truncatiing the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn article to Golden Dawn is that this would serve the corporate interests of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Inc. which has consistently attempted to misleadingly portray themselves as the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and to gain an unfair business advantage over their main rival, the modern Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega. I believe that what is truly happenning here can only be fully understood by also considering that a Wikipedia administrator recently had to protect the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn page against what he called "HOGD, Inc. activism." It appears that this same activism may have spilled over to this page as well.-- Rondus 18:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
'Reliability of Sources: Regarding the correct name of the order about which this article is about, I have provided 3 separate sources a references. User IPSOS has accepted the Francis King source, yet insists that the other two are unreliable. Curiously, during the discussion of “The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Inc.” User IPSOS previously argued that material from the SRIA website should be considered reliable, yet the same user now argues that a facsimile of an original Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega document from the same website is somehow unreliable. Let us give User IPSOS the benefit of the doubt and assume good faith anyway. Here are the references in question:
As a secondary reference, the cover of Enochian Chess: Book Three contains a facsimile reproduction of an original Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega historical document, clearly demonstrating the correct name of the order.
As a tertiary reference, the website of the Societas Rosicruciana in America, has published a facsimile of an original historical document of the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega, clearly demonstrating the correct name of the order, at http://www.sria.org/alpha-omega-application.htm.
Steve Nichols is a well respected author within the field of Enochian Chess. Wikipedia rules regarding reliability indeed generally preclude self-published works, as authors may try to pose as experts. What we have here, however, is merely an author publishing a facsimile of an original Rosicrucian ORder of Alpha et Omega document. This is indeed reliable according to Wikipedia standards. Moreover, this is only a secondary reference, which is all the more reason that it should be kept.
I must admit that I personally do not believe that many of the claims made on the SRIAmerica website are reliable. However, there is no reason whatsoever to believe that the facsimile reproduction of the original Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega document in question itself is unreliable.-- Rondus 17:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
French Language Sources One of the reasons why this article has remained a stub for so long is because it is about a French organization. User IPSOS has consistently deleted each and every citation from a French language source. Please note that Wikipedia does not prohibit foreign language sources as references, but rather merely asks that preference be given to English language sources and that any foreign language references be properly documented. Let us assume good faith and that user IPSOS is not doing this merely to be obstructive to the development of this article beyond a stub. I would nonetheless like to request that user IPSOS please refrain form further deletion of references to French language sources. Since a great deal of material about this French order exists only in French, this is particularly important if this article is ever to be fully developed and not to remain little more than a stub.-- Rondus 18:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The real reason why User IPSOS, is insisting on truncating the name of this historical order from the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega to its nickname, Alpha et Omega, is because there exists a modern order of the same name that is the major rival of H.O.G.D., Inc., for whom user IPSOS has been engaging in coordinated activism, together with users Parsifal, Glassfet, and HOGD120.
Pleae note that the related, Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, page has presently been protected to prevent further such activism. To prove my point, here is a verifiable quote form Francis King, whom user IPSOS himself has elsewhere cited as reliable:
“On the whole of the flying rolls and other instructional material produced by the schismatic fraternities derived from the Golden Dawn after that orginization had broken up into internecine disputes (circa 1900) are of little interest. Notable exceptions to the general mediocrity are the papers of the Cromlech Temple, a side order to the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega -the name adopted after 1900 by those temples loyal to MacGregor Mathers.”
-King, Francis (1971). “Ritual Magic of the Golden Dawn”. Chapter 8, P. 195. ISBN: 9780892816170.-- Rondus 15:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't believe that this is accurate or that the source supports it. Please provide a quote. Even if it does, the link is misleading, because the page linked to is about the Order which was closed. IPSOS ( talk) 03:42, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Another contradiction you've inserted is that the old article and the current lead section based on Ruggiu say the A+O was founded in 1906. Later you say 1903 based on Greer. Is there really a discrepancy between the sources? Or is there a typo, or what? IPSOS ( talk) 03:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't quite do this at the mo. I'll have a go but I don't know a lot about it so feel free 2 edit my gross errors.:) Remember most people won't have heard of the A+O, so rather than starting 'the A+O was started in the year 19--, ' it needs to say 'the a+o was an occult order type thingy.' Merkinsmum 23:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
You can't use the SRIA site. You've already argued on the The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Inc. deletion that the source is unreliable. Plus is is self-published so by Wikipedia rules can only be used in an article about itself.
Second, you can't vaguely refer to a book and call it a citation. Please supply author, title and ISBN. I believe the book is question is published by vanity press and also can't be used. IPSOS ( talk) 17:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Editors can not agree whether the title of the article should be the full formal name Rosicrucian Order of the Alpha et Omega or the common name of Alpha et Omega. Kephera975 18:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
How exactly do you consider referring to the characterisation of your and your associates' activities BY A WIKIPEDIA ADMINISTRATOR an attack by me? I am merely referring to the opinion of a Wikipedia adminsitrator-- Rondus 18:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Rondus ( talk · contribs), let me make this simple: stop discussing editors, and most especially accusing them of nefarious motivations. Stick to the article content. If you continue making personal attacks, you will be reported for policy violations, without further delay, with a likely result that you will be blocked from editing. -- Parsifal Hello 19:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
In that case, suspected sock puppeteer IPSOS, how about EVERYONE ending all of the back and forth MUTUAL accusations and let us deal with the issuess at hand instead, shall we? :-)-- Rondus 20:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Rondus: Get off it. Just stop. These are not mutual accusations. Personal attacks were made and appropriate responses were entered.
And: your current comment includes yet another personal attack. It has been noted. You are walking directly towards the cliff. I suggest you take a deep breath and calm down.
Kephera975, why are you responding to defend an obvious policy violation by another user? Why are you bringing up sockpuppetry, when no-one has mentioned that here? What happened on this page is very clear. Rondus made an accusation that was a personal attack against another editor. Two editors responded and told him to stop doing that. Suddenly, you are now accusing those editors of using "tactics", and you bring up sockpuppetry out of nowhere.
You also are doing exactly the opposite of what you suggest. You said stick to the article content. Good, that's exactly what I wrote in my comment above that you replied to. Yet, instead of sticking to the article content, you have now issued new personal attacks against two editors.
So, let me be clear again: Everyone: Stop the personal attacks. Stop discussing editors. Discuss the content.
Isn't that what you want?
By the way, all of this has diverted attention from the question of the RFC about the article title. Perhaps that was the intention, or perhaps it was just an emotional outburst by a couple people. I don't know about that. But I do know, that the topic of the RFC is now lost in the distant past. So, I am going to refactor that and restart the discussion in a new section. If anyone wants to continue needless disversions about sockpuppets and AfDs, please keep that in this section and let the RFC proceed with clarity.
Also, the original statement of the question for the RFC as written by User:Kephera975 was biased in that it mentioned "the full formal name" and " the common name". Those are unproven characterizations and cannot be used to present the question. I am re-writing it in a neutral way.
If anyone doesn't like the way I stated this new RFC question, discussion is welcome. Politely, please. -- Parsifal Hello 20:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Shall this article retain its current title of Alpha et Omega or shall it be renamed to the correct historical title of the organisation, Rosicrucian Order of the Alpha et Omega?
Please quit trying to divert this discussion with these tactics, IPSOS. The HOGD, Inc activism arleady resulting the protection of aa related page is highly relevant to this discussion, as the identical process and involving tow of the same users is happenning here that resulted in the protection of the other page.-- Rondus 21:48, 21 August 2007 (UTC) — Rondus ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Comment. The question about the title of this page is completely unrelated to the title of Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. They are separate pages. The question of this RFC is what to title this page, based on reliable sources. That has nothing to do with so-called activism on any other page.
And, to be clear about the words of the administrator, the page was not protected due to "activism". What he wrote was: too soon to revert war over, or merge, content; let's tone down perceptions of Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn activism. He referred to perecptions of activism. That is not the same thing as actual activism. Please do not mis-quote to make your points. -- Parsifal Hello 00:36, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
It is the policy of Wikipedia that editors do not use self-published materials unless the author is an established expert in the field. Wikipedia defines one as an established expert only if reliable third-party sources have established this individual as an expert regarding the Order of the A+O. From what I can tell the author of this self-published book "King over the Water" is not an objectively established expert by disinterested third parties. Additionally, the editor, in reference to the book King over the Water makes contentious claims regarding another third party (namely, the organization named the A+O). According to Wikipedia, self-published sources should, if used at all, only be used in instances of autobiography or neutral articles not regarding possible living individuals or organizations made up of living individuals. Therefore I am removing this material as unverifiable according to Wikipedia policy. Please see: WP: SELFPUBLISH . LEpstein5 ( talk) 02:18, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
The comment is based on fantasy by the editor that his group is the original AO order (even though it did not start until the late 1990s). This particular editor has been responsible for vandalism on this page (and pages to do with the subject matter) before and been warned before. The central issue are two books written by Nick Farrell both published by reputable publishers King over the Water which was published by Kerubim Press in Ireland and Mathers Last Secret by Rosicrucian Order of the Golden Dawn. Keribum has published other authors as has ROGD. These works cannot be considered self-published in terms of the WP: SELFPUBLISH rules. The fact that the books make contentious claims about the AO order is not a reason for exclusion from Wikipedia as neither works make reference to a modern order. Since the original AO closed its doors in 1939 according to sources which do not just include Farrell, it is fair to quote him. Given that the article is about the original AO order the fact that Mathers Last Secret contains a verbatim publication of that Orders rituals makes it a viable resource. The fact that King over the Water does not fit with an editor's peculiar views is also not a reason for exclusion. I am restoring this information according to Wikipedia policy. [Magus007]
I propose splitting the current "Origin" section into three sections: Ending the Origin section after "...remained loyal to Mathers during the schism and became part of the Alpha et Omega as well." since that is the ending of their beginnings, so to speak. Then create a second section, "Expansion and decline", to cover the parts about expansion into the UK and America, and ending with "The three chiefs made a bonfire of all the equipment and papers at Isme Boyd's Hertfordshire house." Then, split off the part about the publishing of their rituals to its own "Rituals" section. This section could be later expanded - perhaps we can find a published reference that compares the A+O rituals to the better known Golden Dawn versions (e.g. Regardie's Stella Matutina.) Thoughts? JMax555 ( talk) 19:11, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Since the Colquhoun references have now been cleared up, I'm going to go ahead and make the formatting changes JMax555 has suggested. I had to create a "Decline" section for the corrected references anwyay, so I might as well make the other changes so we can move on. Kheph777 ( talk) 23:41, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
It took me several hours pouring though an un-searchable PDF of Colquhoun's "Sword of Wisdom", but I *finally* found the correct references to the closing of the AO and the burning of its Vault and temple-furniture. There were actually three different places in the text (that I have found so far) that made reference to this. So, I have created a new "Decline" section to the entry so these references could be laid out logically. (I also note that the page reference to Farrell's "Mathers' Last Secret" was p159 - so I suspect that it was a copy/paste error that put the same page number on the Colquhoun reference. This is now, thankfully, fixed.) Kheph777 ( talk) 23:39, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
This article (see Expansion section) currently list both Neith and Ptah Temples as "#10." Where both of them given the same number? If not, which one was #10 and what was the proper number of the other one? Kheph777 ( talk) 23:53, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
I've sent requests for reassessment of the article to WikiProject Occult, WikiProject Religion, WikiProject Spirituality, WikiProject Philosophy and WikiProject Secret Societies. I think it's now significantly above Start Class, possibly B-class. It still needs work but it's not a Start anymore. JMax555 ( talk) 04:10, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
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This article is in dire need of expansion so I have expanded it and added some references. Any help with references would be great. Kephera975 21:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I disagree. If we were to follow the logic of this argument to its logical conclusion, then user IPSOS would also be agruing that the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn article should be truncated merely to Golden Dawn as well. The only possible reason that I can see for truncating the name of the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega to Alpha et Omega and not truncatiing the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn article to Golden Dawn is that this would serve the corporate interests of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Inc. which has consistently attempted to misleadingly portray themselves as the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and to gain an unfair business advantage over their main rival, the modern Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega. I believe that what is truly happenning here can only be fully understood by also considering that a Wikipedia administrator recently had to protect the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn page against what he called "HOGD, Inc. activism." It appears that this same activism may have spilled over to this page as well.-- Rondus 18:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
'Reliability of Sources: Regarding the correct name of the order about which this article is about, I have provided 3 separate sources a references. User IPSOS has accepted the Francis King source, yet insists that the other two are unreliable. Curiously, during the discussion of “The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Inc.” User IPSOS previously argued that material from the SRIA website should be considered reliable, yet the same user now argues that a facsimile of an original Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega document from the same website is somehow unreliable. Let us give User IPSOS the benefit of the doubt and assume good faith anyway. Here are the references in question:
As a secondary reference, the cover of Enochian Chess: Book Three contains a facsimile reproduction of an original Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega historical document, clearly demonstrating the correct name of the order.
As a tertiary reference, the website of the Societas Rosicruciana in America, has published a facsimile of an original historical document of the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega, clearly demonstrating the correct name of the order, at http://www.sria.org/alpha-omega-application.htm.
Steve Nichols is a well respected author within the field of Enochian Chess. Wikipedia rules regarding reliability indeed generally preclude self-published works, as authors may try to pose as experts. What we have here, however, is merely an author publishing a facsimile of an original Rosicrucian ORder of Alpha et Omega document. This is indeed reliable according to Wikipedia standards. Moreover, this is only a secondary reference, which is all the more reason that it should be kept.
I must admit that I personally do not believe that many of the claims made on the SRIAmerica website are reliable. However, there is no reason whatsoever to believe that the facsimile reproduction of the original Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega document in question itself is unreliable.-- Rondus 17:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
French Language Sources One of the reasons why this article has remained a stub for so long is because it is about a French organization. User IPSOS has consistently deleted each and every citation from a French language source. Please note that Wikipedia does not prohibit foreign language sources as references, but rather merely asks that preference be given to English language sources and that any foreign language references be properly documented. Let us assume good faith and that user IPSOS is not doing this merely to be obstructive to the development of this article beyond a stub. I would nonetheless like to request that user IPSOS please refrain form further deletion of references to French language sources. Since a great deal of material about this French order exists only in French, this is particularly important if this article is ever to be fully developed and not to remain little more than a stub.-- Rondus 18:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The real reason why User IPSOS, is insisting on truncating the name of this historical order from the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega to its nickname, Alpha et Omega, is because there exists a modern order of the same name that is the major rival of H.O.G.D., Inc., for whom user IPSOS has been engaging in coordinated activism, together with users Parsifal, Glassfet, and HOGD120.
Pleae note that the related, Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, page has presently been protected to prevent further such activism. To prove my point, here is a verifiable quote form Francis King, whom user IPSOS himself has elsewhere cited as reliable:
“On the whole of the flying rolls and other instructional material produced by the schismatic fraternities derived from the Golden Dawn after that orginization had broken up into internecine disputes (circa 1900) are of little interest. Notable exceptions to the general mediocrity are the papers of the Cromlech Temple, a side order to the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega -the name adopted after 1900 by those temples loyal to MacGregor Mathers.”
-King, Francis (1971). “Ritual Magic of the Golden Dawn”. Chapter 8, P. 195. ISBN: 9780892816170.-- Rondus 15:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't believe that this is accurate or that the source supports it. Please provide a quote. Even if it does, the link is misleading, because the page linked to is about the Order which was closed. IPSOS ( talk) 03:42, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Another contradiction you've inserted is that the old article and the current lead section based on Ruggiu say the A+O was founded in 1906. Later you say 1903 based on Greer. Is there really a discrepancy between the sources? Or is there a typo, or what? IPSOS ( talk) 03:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't quite do this at the mo. I'll have a go but I don't know a lot about it so feel free 2 edit my gross errors.:) Remember most people won't have heard of the A+O, so rather than starting 'the A+O was started in the year 19--, ' it needs to say 'the a+o was an occult order type thingy.' Merkinsmum 23:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
You can't use the SRIA site. You've already argued on the The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Inc. deletion that the source is unreliable. Plus is is self-published so by Wikipedia rules can only be used in an article about itself.
Second, you can't vaguely refer to a book and call it a citation. Please supply author, title and ISBN. I believe the book is question is published by vanity press and also can't be used. IPSOS ( talk) 17:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Editors can not agree whether the title of the article should be the full formal name Rosicrucian Order of the Alpha et Omega or the common name of Alpha et Omega. Kephera975 18:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
How exactly do you consider referring to the characterisation of your and your associates' activities BY A WIKIPEDIA ADMINISTRATOR an attack by me? I am merely referring to the opinion of a Wikipedia adminsitrator-- Rondus 18:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Rondus ( talk · contribs), let me make this simple: stop discussing editors, and most especially accusing them of nefarious motivations. Stick to the article content. If you continue making personal attacks, you will be reported for policy violations, without further delay, with a likely result that you will be blocked from editing. -- Parsifal Hello 19:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
In that case, suspected sock puppeteer IPSOS, how about EVERYONE ending all of the back and forth MUTUAL accusations and let us deal with the issuess at hand instead, shall we? :-)-- Rondus 20:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Rondus: Get off it. Just stop. These are not mutual accusations. Personal attacks were made and appropriate responses were entered.
And: your current comment includes yet another personal attack. It has been noted. You are walking directly towards the cliff. I suggest you take a deep breath and calm down.
Kephera975, why are you responding to defend an obvious policy violation by another user? Why are you bringing up sockpuppetry, when no-one has mentioned that here? What happened on this page is very clear. Rondus made an accusation that was a personal attack against another editor. Two editors responded and told him to stop doing that. Suddenly, you are now accusing those editors of using "tactics", and you bring up sockpuppetry out of nowhere.
You also are doing exactly the opposite of what you suggest. You said stick to the article content. Good, that's exactly what I wrote in my comment above that you replied to. Yet, instead of sticking to the article content, you have now issued new personal attacks against two editors.
So, let me be clear again: Everyone: Stop the personal attacks. Stop discussing editors. Discuss the content.
Isn't that what you want?
By the way, all of this has diverted attention from the question of the RFC about the article title. Perhaps that was the intention, or perhaps it was just an emotional outburst by a couple people. I don't know about that. But I do know, that the topic of the RFC is now lost in the distant past. So, I am going to refactor that and restart the discussion in a new section. If anyone wants to continue needless disversions about sockpuppets and AfDs, please keep that in this section and let the RFC proceed with clarity.
Also, the original statement of the question for the RFC as written by User:Kephera975 was biased in that it mentioned "the full formal name" and " the common name". Those are unproven characterizations and cannot be used to present the question. I am re-writing it in a neutral way.
If anyone doesn't like the way I stated this new RFC question, discussion is welcome. Politely, please. -- Parsifal Hello 20:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Shall this article retain its current title of Alpha et Omega or shall it be renamed to the correct historical title of the organisation, Rosicrucian Order of the Alpha et Omega?
Please quit trying to divert this discussion with these tactics, IPSOS. The HOGD, Inc activism arleady resulting the protection of aa related page is highly relevant to this discussion, as the identical process and involving tow of the same users is happenning here that resulted in the protection of the other page.-- Rondus 21:48, 21 August 2007 (UTC) — Rondus ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Comment. The question about the title of this page is completely unrelated to the title of Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. They are separate pages. The question of this RFC is what to title this page, based on reliable sources. That has nothing to do with so-called activism on any other page.
And, to be clear about the words of the administrator, the page was not protected due to "activism". What he wrote was: too soon to revert war over, or merge, content; let's tone down perceptions of Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn activism. He referred to perecptions of activism. That is not the same thing as actual activism. Please do not mis-quote to make your points. -- Parsifal Hello 00:36, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
It is the policy of Wikipedia that editors do not use self-published materials unless the author is an established expert in the field. Wikipedia defines one as an established expert only if reliable third-party sources have established this individual as an expert regarding the Order of the A+O. From what I can tell the author of this self-published book "King over the Water" is not an objectively established expert by disinterested third parties. Additionally, the editor, in reference to the book King over the Water makes contentious claims regarding another third party (namely, the organization named the A+O). According to Wikipedia, self-published sources should, if used at all, only be used in instances of autobiography or neutral articles not regarding possible living individuals or organizations made up of living individuals. Therefore I am removing this material as unverifiable according to Wikipedia policy. Please see: WP: SELFPUBLISH . LEpstein5 ( talk) 02:18, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
The comment is based on fantasy by the editor that his group is the original AO order (even though it did not start until the late 1990s). This particular editor has been responsible for vandalism on this page (and pages to do with the subject matter) before and been warned before. The central issue are two books written by Nick Farrell both published by reputable publishers King over the Water which was published by Kerubim Press in Ireland and Mathers Last Secret by Rosicrucian Order of the Golden Dawn. Keribum has published other authors as has ROGD. These works cannot be considered self-published in terms of the WP: SELFPUBLISH rules. The fact that the books make contentious claims about the AO order is not a reason for exclusion from Wikipedia as neither works make reference to a modern order. Since the original AO closed its doors in 1939 according to sources which do not just include Farrell, it is fair to quote him. Given that the article is about the original AO order the fact that Mathers Last Secret contains a verbatim publication of that Orders rituals makes it a viable resource. The fact that King over the Water does not fit with an editor's peculiar views is also not a reason for exclusion. I am restoring this information according to Wikipedia policy. [Magus007]
I propose splitting the current "Origin" section into three sections: Ending the Origin section after "...remained loyal to Mathers during the schism and became part of the Alpha et Omega as well." since that is the ending of their beginnings, so to speak. Then create a second section, "Expansion and decline", to cover the parts about expansion into the UK and America, and ending with "The three chiefs made a bonfire of all the equipment and papers at Isme Boyd's Hertfordshire house." Then, split off the part about the publishing of their rituals to its own "Rituals" section. This section could be later expanded - perhaps we can find a published reference that compares the A+O rituals to the better known Golden Dawn versions (e.g. Regardie's Stella Matutina.) Thoughts? JMax555 ( talk) 19:11, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Since the Colquhoun references have now been cleared up, I'm going to go ahead and make the formatting changes JMax555 has suggested. I had to create a "Decline" section for the corrected references anwyay, so I might as well make the other changes so we can move on. Kheph777 ( talk) 23:41, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
It took me several hours pouring though an un-searchable PDF of Colquhoun's "Sword of Wisdom", but I *finally* found the correct references to the closing of the AO and the burning of its Vault and temple-furniture. There were actually three different places in the text (that I have found so far) that made reference to this. So, I have created a new "Decline" section to the entry so these references could be laid out logically. (I also note that the page reference to Farrell's "Mathers' Last Secret" was p159 - so I suspect that it was a copy/paste error that put the same page number on the Colquhoun reference. This is now, thankfully, fixed.) Kheph777 ( talk) 23:39, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
This article (see Expansion section) currently list both Neith and Ptah Temples as "#10." Where both of them given the same number? If not, which one was #10 and what was the proper number of the other one? Kheph777 ( talk) 23:53, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
I've sent requests for reassessment of the article to WikiProject Occult, WikiProject Religion, WikiProject Spirituality, WikiProject Philosophy and WikiProject Secret Societies. I think it's now significantly above Start Class, possibly B-class. It still needs work but it's not a Start anymore. JMax555 ( talk) 04:10, 16 July 2013 (UTC)