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Since the Mack prosecution began, consensus has been loosely established (via a stable lede) that the second paragraph of the lede was the place to put Mack's criminal history. Should the first sentence of the lede be updated to include that she is an "American actor and convicted felon" or some form of that? In a two-paragraph, six-sentence lede, three sentences devoted to her prosecution and conviction seems due to me and to flow better, and makes first sentence mention overkill. Thoughts? Grandpallama ( talk) 00:45, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Says who? there are many, many biographical entries, often involving former politicians and businesspeople in which the first graph in bio says “former congressman and convicted felon. The reality is that Mack’s acting career is minor compared to her notoriety as a felon and associate of Raniere.
Coastda1952 ( talk) 05:57, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
In July, the lede was changed to read as follows:
"She portrayed Chloe Sullivan on the WB / CW superhero series Smallville (2001–2011), where she appeared in all 10 seasons. Mack was also featured in a recurring role on the FX comedy series Wilfred (2012; 2014)."
In late September, however, key context was cut from from the lede:
"She played Chloe Sullivan in the superhero television series Smallville and appeared in a recurring role on the comedy series Wilfred."
The arguments for removing this context are that it's "unnecessary detail" and this information is already mentioned in the article's body. To the latter argument, all information in a lede is supposed to be found in the body. We're not removing the whole lede simply because the information is mentioned again. The lede, of course, is a summary. And that's what the older version is; it's only two sentences and 37 words.
To the former argument, I recognize that citing other articles using this information in their ledes is WP:OTHERSTUFF, but the reason why articles include it is because it's necessary context. The years these shows ran identity to readers when her acting career took place. The networks demonstrate the notability of these shows. And the fact that she appeared in every season of 10-season series is a notable accomplishment, especially when she was the only cast member other than Tom Welling to be in every season. It wouldn't be so notable if Smallville was only one or two seasons, but this was a long-running show and the fact that she was a significant part of it is notable. Saying she simply "played Chloe Sullivan in the superhero television series Smallville" doesn't convey the significance of career.
We're putting more detail into her arrest and conviction that her acting career in the lede. The lede should have a proportionate amount of detail about both aspects of her life to avoid WP:UNDUEWEIGHT and the key context accomplishes this. Bluerules ( talk) 15:10, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
I addressed these issues while restoring the context about her career without objection or edit warring from you or other editors, the fact is that initial revert restored other problematic text that we had to clean up [1] [2], and it's pedantic to claim one didn't add the erroneous text about "stepping away from her career" when they certainly did add the lede text about joining NXIVM "after the conclusion of Smallville". Beyond that, as I said, the lede has evolved over time due to multiple editors tweaking it, so reverting back to a preferred July version that one primarily wrote themselves remains problematic.
If you were truly opposed to this text, you would have changed it, but you did not until other editors supported removing itI'm pretty sure you don't know my mind, but suffice it to say that choosing not to engage with someone =/= support of that person's ideas or suggestions. Whatever you misbelieve the case to have been in July, it should now be clear to you that three editors (myself, Vadder, and Rootone) have opposed this rewrite in general. Grandpallama ( talk) 13:49, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
choosing not to engage with someonedoesn't hold up when you demonstrated back then you were willing to engage and you're clearly engaging now. Again, you restored edits that you're now purporting to be vehemently opposed to. Restoring content = supporting that content. However you misrepresent what happened in July, the facts remain that you didn't touch this version for almost three months and even restored it, have failed to provide any actual arguments against its inclusion, and gave an incorrect account of what previously took place. Vadder has been providing actual arguments for his trimming, but you simply fall in line with what other editors write. Bluerules ( talk) 06:25, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
To summarize what I understand of the Bluerules position:
The current text reads:
Mack was a member of NXIVM, a sex cult posing as a multilevel marketing company. In 2018, she was arrested on charges of sex trafficking, sex trafficking conspiracy, and forced labor conspiracy in relation to NXIVM activities. She pleaded guilty to racketeering charges and was sentenced to three years in prison in 2021. [1]
...and Bluerules proposes to change the text to:
In 2018, Mack was arrested on charges of sex trafficking, sex trafficking conspiracy, and forced labor conspiracy in relation to NXIVM, a sex cult posing as a multilevel marketing company. She pleaded guilty to racketeering charges and was sentenced to three years in prison in 2021. [1]
(Please Bluerules make any changes needed to the second blockquote above if I have made a mistake.)
I note that before we all took some time away from this discussion, Grandpallama was still opposed to this change. Bluerules supports the change as proposer and I am willing to accept it. This is not yet what I would call a strong consensus. Any other opinions? Vadder ( talk) 03:36, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
We have "Leads" not "Ledes" on Wikipedia. Please see MOS:LEAD. 208.103.240.156 ( talk) 18:36, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
References
The last paragraph of the NXIVM section begins by saying that she faced a minimum of 15 years, but then goes on to say she got 3 years. There should be an explanation for the discrepancy, or else the "minimum" part should be rephrased. 76.174.37.123 ( talk) 21:04, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
I don't want to trigger an edit war, but across NXIVM-related pages I keep seeing the organization matter-of-factly referred to as "an American cult" without establishing how it was a cult. It's my opinion that this is inconsistent with
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.
To see what I mean, canvass pages for any number of groups described as "cults" (e.g.,
Unification Church,
Heaven's Gate,
Branch Davidians,
Landmark Worldwide). They take pains to objectively describe the group (as a new religious movement, self-help group, etc.) and that they are commonly described as cults (or similar text) with references. The point is to help guide readers investigating the topic, without clubbing them over the head with opinions (even where they are commonly held ones).
None of this is about defending NXIVM, but keeping Wikipedia as a place where the facts are important.
Evackost (
talk)
15:19, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Disregard, pardon. Evackost ( talk) 01:40, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the section titled Cooperation and guilty plea, please wikilink the phrase proffer sessions to Proffer letter 76.14.122.5 ( talk) 05:21, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Minor suggestion: in the last sentence in the lead, change "...and was sentenced to three years in prison in 2021." to "...and in 2021 was sentenced to three years in prison." 76.14.122.5 ( talk) 00:02, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
The lede states that Allison Mack is "an American former actress." Did she officially retire? Unless she publicly retires, how can she be said to be a "former" actress? One of the reasons Mack joined NXIVM in the first place was to become a better actress, so presumably she still had aspirations of future employment. Given the nature of show business, actors can go for years without being involved in a production seen by the public; simply being unemployed does not connote retirement status. Likewise, being incarcerated does not remove her aspirational vocation. Currently, it would seem, she's an unemployed, incarcerated actress, but not yet a "former" actress. Petzl ( talk) 21:58, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
The lede describes Allison Mack as a "convicted sex offender" -- she may have been charged with a sex crime, but she was not convicted of that crime. Can someone explain why this is what was settled on when it is factually untrue?? 174.141.207.66 ( talk) 06:05, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
I'ts a fact she was convicted for three years with charges of racketeering, thus i added "convixted felon" rightfully. 181.209.144.147 ( talk) 14:45, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Allison Mack article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Archives ( Index) |
This page is archived by
ClueBot III.
|
Since the Mack prosecution began, consensus has been loosely established (via a stable lede) that the second paragraph of the lede was the place to put Mack's criminal history. Should the first sentence of the lede be updated to include that she is an "American actor and convicted felon" or some form of that? In a two-paragraph, six-sentence lede, three sentences devoted to her prosecution and conviction seems due to me and to flow better, and makes first sentence mention overkill. Thoughts? Grandpallama ( talk) 00:45, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Says who? there are many, many biographical entries, often involving former politicians and businesspeople in which the first graph in bio says “former congressman and convicted felon. The reality is that Mack’s acting career is minor compared to her notoriety as a felon and associate of Raniere.
Coastda1952 ( talk) 05:57, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
In July, the lede was changed to read as follows:
"She portrayed Chloe Sullivan on the WB / CW superhero series Smallville (2001–2011), where she appeared in all 10 seasons. Mack was also featured in a recurring role on the FX comedy series Wilfred (2012; 2014)."
In late September, however, key context was cut from from the lede:
"She played Chloe Sullivan in the superhero television series Smallville and appeared in a recurring role on the comedy series Wilfred."
The arguments for removing this context are that it's "unnecessary detail" and this information is already mentioned in the article's body. To the latter argument, all information in a lede is supposed to be found in the body. We're not removing the whole lede simply because the information is mentioned again. The lede, of course, is a summary. And that's what the older version is; it's only two sentences and 37 words.
To the former argument, I recognize that citing other articles using this information in their ledes is WP:OTHERSTUFF, but the reason why articles include it is because it's necessary context. The years these shows ran identity to readers when her acting career took place. The networks demonstrate the notability of these shows. And the fact that she appeared in every season of 10-season series is a notable accomplishment, especially when she was the only cast member other than Tom Welling to be in every season. It wouldn't be so notable if Smallville was only one or two seasons, but this was a long-running show and the fact that she was a significant part of it is notable. Saying she simply "played Chloe Sullivan in the superhero television series Smallville" doesn't convey the significance of career.
We're putting more detail into her arrest and conviction that her acting career in the lede. The lede should have a proportionate amount of detail about both aspects of her life to avoid WP:UNDUEWEIGHT and the key context accomplishes this. Bluerules ( talk) 15:10, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
I addressed these issues while restoring the context about her career without objection or edit warring from you or other editors, the fact is that initial revert restored other problematic text that we had to clean up [1] [2], and it's pedantic to claim one didn't add the erroneous text about "stepping away from her career" when they certainly did add the lede text about joining NXIVM "after the conclusion of Smallville". Beyond that, as I said, the lede has evolved over time due to multiple editors tweaking it, so reverting back to a preferred July version that one primarily wrote themselves remains problematic.
If you were truly opposed to this text, you would have changed it, but you did not until other editors supported removing itI'm pretty sure you don't know my mind, but suffice it to say that choosing not to engage with someone =/= support of that person's ideas or suggestions. Whatever you misbelieve the case to have been in July, it should now be clear to you that three editors (myself, Vadder, and Rootone) have opposed this rewrite in general. Grandpallama ( talk) 13:49, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
choosing not to engage with someonedoesn't hold up when you demonstrated back then you were willing to engage and you're clearly engaging now. Again, you restored edits that you're now purporting to be vehemently opposed to. Restoring content = supporting that content. However you misrepresent what happened in July, the facts remain that you didn't touch this version for almost three months and even restored it, have failed to provide any actual arguments against its inclusion, and gave an incorrect account of what previously took place. Vadder has been providing actual arguments for his trimming, but you simply fall in line with what other editors write. Bluerules ( talk) 06:25, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
To summarize what I understand of the Bluerules position:
The current text reads:
Mack was a member of NXIVM, a sex cult posing as a multilevel marketing company. In 2018, she was arrested on charges of sex trafficking, sex trafficking conspiracy, and forced labor conspiracy in relation to NXIVM activities. She pleaded guilty to racketeering charges and was sentenced to three years in prison in 2021. [1]
...and Bluerules proposes to change the text to:
In 2018, Mack was arrested on charges of sex trafficking, sex trafficking conspiracy, and forced labor conspiracy in relation to NXIVM, a sex cult posing as a multilevel marketing company. She pleaded guilty to racketeering charges and was sentenced to three years in prison in 2021. [1]
(Please Bluerules make any changes needed to the second blockquote above if I have made a mistake.)
I note that before we all took some time away from this discussion, Grandpallama was still opposed to this change. Bluerules supports the change as proposer and I am willing to accept it. This is not yet what I would call a strong consensus. Any other opinions? Vadder ( talk) 03:36, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
We have "Leads" not "Ledes" on Wikipedia. Please see MOS:LEAD. 208.103.240.156 ( talk) 18:36, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
References
The last paragraph of the NXIVM section begins by saying that she faced a minimum of 15 years, but then goes on to say she got 3 years. There should be an explanation for the discrepancy, or else the "minimum" part should be rephrased. 76.174.37.123 ( talk) 21:04, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
I don't want to trigger an edit war, but across NXIVM-related pages I keep seeing the organization matter-of-factly referred to as "an American cult" without establishing how it was a cult. It's my opinion that this is inconsistent with
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.
To see what I mean, canvass pages for any number of groups described as "cults" (e.g.,
Unification Church,
Heaven's Gate,
Branch Davidians,
Landmark Worldwide). They take pains to objectively describe the group (as a new religious movement, self-help group, etc.) and that they are commonly described as cults (or similar text) with references. The point is to help guide readers investigating the topic, without clubbing them over the head with opinions (even where they are commonly held ones).
None of this is about defending NXIVM, but keeping Wikipedia as a place where the facts are important.
Evackost (
talk)
15:19, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Disregard, pardon. Evackost ( talk) 01:40, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In the section titled Cooperation and guilty plea, please wikilink the phrase proffer sessions to Proffer letter 76.14.122.5 ( talk) 05:21, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Minor suggestion: in the last sentence in the lead, change "...and was sentenced to three years in prison in 2021." to "...and in 2021 was sentenced to three years in prison." 76.14.122.5 ( talk) 00:02, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
The lede states that Allison Mack is "an American former actress." Did she officially retire? Unless she publicly retires, how can she be said to be a "former" actress? One of the reasons Mack joined NXIVM in the first place was to become a better actress, so presumably she still had aspirations of future employment. Given the nature of show business, actors can go for years without being involved in a production seen by the public; simply being unemployed does not connote retirement status. Likewise, being incarcerated does not remove her aspirational vocation. Currently, it would seem, she's an unemployed, incarcerated actress, but not yet a "former" actress. Petzl ( talk) 21:58, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
The lede describes Allison Mack as a "convicted sex offender" -- she may have been charged with a sex crime, but she was not convicted of that crime. Can someone explain why this is what was settled on when it is factually untrue?? 174.141.207.66 ( talk) 06:05, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
I'ts a fact she was convicted for three years with charges of racketeering, thus i added "convixted felon" rightfully. 181.209.144.147 ( talk) 14:45, 6 December 2023 (UTC)