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The flag icon on the article indicates that British Indian forces participated in the campaign, but there is no mention of their contribution, casualties, etc. Can anyone add info on this?
Why is there no mention of the Canadian contribution? One would think they weren't even there.
I do not beleive that this one was larger than Normandy. Will try to prove it. Beanbatch 22:22, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Operation Husky was the largest amphibious assault of the war including Normandy. In some ways it can be considered to be the largest amphibious assault ever launched all at once as Gallipoli, while larger, it was done over a series of weeks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.202.148.60 ( talk • contribs) 15:36, 20 January 2006
Where do the numbers come from that support the following claim: "casualties on the Axis side totalled 29,000, with 140,000 captured". According to [1] total German KIAs and MIAs were 57,800 + 18,300 for July 1943 and 58,000 + 26,400 for August 1943, including the battles of Kursk and Kharkov and all other fighting on the eastern front, that is 44,700 MIA on all fronts combined. 140,000 captured on Sicily would mean how many Italians? 143,000? Yes, I can see that they are quoted from [2] but that site does not claim what source it used in it's turn.
Also, the impact on the battle of Kursk was not that big. It might be worth mentioning that there is a big discussion concerning these issues on the talk page for that battle.
-- itpastorn 15:22, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes i agree too, i have been adding all the casualties from the german campaings acording to wikipedia battlebox operations and the total summ is more than the overall german causalties on WW2!!!.(maybe come soldiers where casualties more than one time but is still to difficult to believe) From any way or another, dont trust the casualties box in the internet. Trust official figures from each combatant thats better, trusting in a official casualties report in one side and the aproximtions of the other is a POV. That should be avoided.
The Italians in Sicily were 230,000 (with the fascist Militia). The Fallen of the Axis were 4,278 Italians and 4,325 Germans. Alexander said "we have taken 132,000 prisoners." (Eddy Bauer, "Storia controversa della Seconda Guerra Mondiale"). Most of the Italian soldiers were Sicilians.
SSG Cornelius Seon (Retired) 21:05, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
There is a project in place to coordinate all of the Military articles so that duplication of efforts, and better utilization of collaberative efforts ca be achieved. SSG Cornelius Seon (Retired) 00:27, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
This was recently added into the "lessons learned" para regarding Allied interoperability: "Indeed, a few months later, Montgomery's initial assessment of the Operation Overlord plan included a request for four Airborne Divisions."
I'm wondering why this was included? It seems to suggest Sicily was the reason for having paratroopers in Overlord, but they had been used many times before - North Africa and at least one Commando raid. They had also been in the original plan for Dieppe (which Montgomery had a hand in), so if the suggestion is that Sicily proved a need for paratroopers to be in on D-Day, I'd suggest Allied planners knew full well about the capabilities of parachute troops long before that. Comments? The sentence seems out of place as is. Michael Dorosh 14:34, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
In the text I don`t see a word about the German-Italian counter-offensive of Gela (July 11) of the German armoured division "Hermann Göring" and of the Italian division "Livorno". 600 soldiers of the "Livorno" started a frontal attack and were destroyed. It was the last offensive of the Italian Army during the war 1940-43. Moreover I don`t see a word about the battle of Valledolmo against the division "Assietta" (July 21)(sources are Attilio Tamaro and Eddy Bauer). The important role played by the Italo-American mafia and by the sicilian separatist who corroded the Italian units made up by Sicilians and "prepared" the Sicilian population isn`t to be undervalued.
I add that on July 12, 1943 the US-Air Force destroyed the H.Q. of the Italian 6th Army in Piazza Armerina and this was important because the 6th Army, practically didn`t get regular orders any more.
DMorpeheus, now I guess I have understood what you meant. No, thanks, my English is too rudimental. You can improve the article better than me!
Is there a convention for commanders in the infobox? On the Allied side we currently have the army group commander (fair enough) then the two army commanders (ditto) but then one Corps commander (Bradley) out of a possible four. Then one divisional commander (Simonds) out of a possible 12 (or more if you include replacements) Then Andrew McNaughton is included although he wasn't in the chain of command for this operation (any more than the members of say the US or British chiefs of staff). On the Axis side we have Hitler and Mussolini - why? After all we don't have Churchill or Roosevelt in the box. We have the army commander Guzzoni (fine) and Corps commander Hube but not Corps commanders of the Italian XII and XVI Corps. Also, the German troops in Sicily, although under Guzzoni, actually took their orders from Kesselring and von Senger und Etterling (the German liaison officer to Guzzoni), so there is an argument to include them. Unless this provokes a howl of protest, I am proposing to remove in a couple of days evryone except the army / army group commanders - all the other names can be found in the order of battle —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kirrages ( talk • contribs) 17:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC).
Can anyone write somthing about the preparations that where done in Malta for Operation Husky? The information I have states that the operation was coordinated from Malta in the Lascaris tunnels in Valletta and the landing ships gathered in Malta. Also on Gozo an emergency landing strip was done in a few days time. Also during the invasion the naval dockyard in Malta was used for emergency repairs on allies ships. Malteseman1983 15:40, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Seems the intro became garbled at some point. Part of it currently reads The invasion of the island was codenamed Operation Husky and it launched the Italian Campaign amphibious operation of World War II in terms of men landed on the beaches and of frontage. I hadn't followed the article before so I have no clue how the intro read before and the change doesn't seem to be recent. Maybe it should be changed to something like The invasion of the island was codenamed Operation Husky and it launched the Italian Campaign. It was the largest amphibious operation of World War II in terms of men landed on the beaches and of frontage. But something else might also have been deleted so I'd prefer it if someone more experienced with this article took a look first.-- Caranorn 16:26, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
There is an error in the number of Canadian casualties from this part of the Italian Campaign. The Canadian casualties were not in the range of over 2,300. In fact, with POWs et al, subtract 1,000. Considering the original author provides the link to wwii.ca/page25.html, such an error is inexcusable, even if it was only mathematic. These can be further verified at http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=feature/italy2004/italy_educators/italyinfosheet . I have also corrected the total casualties list in the boxed info. Wikig39 14:53, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Anyone have information on the naval participation in this operation? Oberiko ( talk) 00:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I have rolled back some dubious edits from this anonymous user. If anyone can cite or otherwise confirm this information, please do so. NewEnglandYankee ( talk) 18:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi all. I was bold, and rearranged the belligerents' flags in the infobox in alphabetical order. Seems to me this should be the preferred order for all such battles, and seems less denigrating to the "lesser" allies without taking anything away from the "bigger" allies. Comments are, or course, welcome. Esseh ( talk) 23:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi all. The map of the Allied landings needs some re-working. The Allied part is OK, as far as I can see, but the Axis part is labeled "German counteroffensives", or some such. However, of the three Axis Divisions shown, only the Hermann Goering Division is German - the other two are Italian! Should be "Axis defenders" or whatever! Esseh ( talk) 00:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
The text says there were four parachute drops - two British, two American, one Canadian and one Australian (which adds to six!!). Also there are no Canadian or Australian airborn troops listed in the Operation Husky order of battle. Any idea what is going on here? Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 09:43, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I see that a recent edit has changed the number of Italian and German troops in Sicily from 190,000 and 40,000 (cited from Jowett) to 275,000 and 75,000 (cited from Dickson - unless the citation refers only to the aircraft numbers). Hoyt has 200,000 + 30,000. As far as I'm aware the Germans had only two divisions in Sicily so 75,000 looks over-cooked. Any thoughts out there? Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 22:55, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
hat exact page are you refering to?
The book FROM THE NORMANDY BEACHES TO THE BALTIC SEA states that "The Axis garrison of 200,000 Italians and 30,000 Germans had no prospect of actually holding the island; but General Alaxander, commanding the 15th Army Group, exerted little control, and his army commanders, Patton and Montgomery, hammered out a course of action of their own [4]." The book THE ITALIAN ARMY 1940-1945: ITALY 1943-1945 says "The Axis forces defending Sicily, nominally under the command of General Guzzoni, consisted of 230,000 men including 40,000 German troops; these latter included elite units such as Gen Paul Conrath's Panzer Division 'Hermann Goring', north of Gela, and the 15th Panzer Grenadier Division [5]." And the book AERIAL INTERDICTION reports that "The German infantry numbered 32,000; the Italians 200,000 [6]" and you would have to be simple-minded to conclude that the author is referring solely to foot-sloggers. And yes the author quotes Carlo D'Este when claiming the Germans shipped reinforcements to Sicily but where is there an online account or book of pilots straffing reinforcements heading to the island??? And what was the composition of these reinforcements???Now going back to the Axis numbers, the authors of the book SEA POWER:A NAVAL HISTORY report that "There were in Sicily two German and four Italian combat divisions, amounting to about 255,000 troops [7]." And the book WORLD WAR II GLIDER PILOTS claims that "Ten Italian and two German combat divisions totalling over 200,000 troops were waiting for the Allies in Sicily [8]." Even the ordinary soldiers of the Invasion force, like Hollis Stabler in the book NO ONE EVER ASKED ME report only about half the ridiculous figure now approximating 400,000 "Gozzoni's total resources by the end of June 1943 included six coastal divisions, two coastal brigades, one coastal regiment, four mobile divisions (a total of 200,000 men), and two mobile German divisions [9]. Another book, At The Water's Edge that goes into some detail says "The Italian Sixth Army, commanded by General d' Armata Alfredo Guzzoni, was responsible for the defense of the island. Before the arrival of German reinforcements in June, the Sixth Army consisted of two corps headquarters, five static coastal divisions, four mobile divisions, two coastal brigades, and other miscellaneous units for a total of two hundred thousand men [10]."—Preceding unsigned comment added by Flylikeadodo ( talk • contribs) 01:14, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone have/know somewhere where specific casualties for the German and Italian forces can be found? Such as captured and wounded because those are currently missing. Red4tribe ( talk) 10:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
checked the order of battle article and the Free Fench were there, high command was british but the french fought there so you have to add the Free French flag in the combattants list. Cliché Online ( talk) 08:18, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
How can the allied invasion of Scilily come before the second battle of El Alamein? 86.15.144.198 ( talk) 09:23, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Don't understand why the changes from Italian Fascism to Kingdom of Italy, an ally both in WWI and for the last year of WW II. The allies were fighting Germans and some Italians in Sicily. It seems to me that Mussolini, a fascist, dutifully declared an unpopular war against the US. Student7 ( talk) 00:06, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
The Canadian participation section unbalances the article, giving undue prominence to the presence of a single formation. Most of the section is not about planning, which it should be, given the article's structure. I propose therefore to move this content to the 1st Canadian Infantry Division article which is more appropriate. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 09:44, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
The 1st Canadian Infantry Division was included in the Allied invasion of Sicily at the insistence of the Canadian Prime Minister, William Lyon Mackenzie King, and the Canadian Military Headquarters in the UK. This request was granted by the British, displacing the veteran British 3rd Infantry Division. The change was not finalized until 27 April 1943, when General Andrew McNaughton, the commander of the First Canadian Army, deemed Husky to be a viable military undertaking and agreed to the detachment of both 1st Canadian Infantry Division and 1st Canadian Tank Brigade. The "Red Patch Division" was added to British XXX Corps to become part of the Eighth Army. [1]
The Canadian forces were initially commanded by Major General H. L. N. Salmon, who died in an airplane accident in the early days of planning. He was succeeded by Major General Guy Simonds, whose lack of experience was offset by an impressive career and a formidable military intellect. [1] The Canadians had served in the United Kingdom for a number of years, and before the Sicilian Campaign, considered themselves no more than "a sort of adjunct to the British Homeguard." [2] They had, with some exceptions (like the Dieppe raid by the 2nd Canadian Infantry Division), not served under fire so far. Sicily would be the first divisional-scale combat operation in World War II for the Canadian Army. [2] The Dieppe Raid had done nothing to still the voices in Canada clamouring about the inactivity of Canadian troops thus far into the war. The Canadian participation in this campaign quieted the uproar of the Canadian home front.
The 1st Canadian Division was always categorized as a branch of the British Army, despite its differences and individuality as an independent force. The Canadians, unlike the rest of 15th Army Group, had not yet served in the Mediterranean, and had not become acclimatized to its searing temperatures. That reality, combined with a shortage of transport caused by losses at sea, resulted in 1st Canadian Division and its tank brigade being halted just days into the operation, for a much needed rest until they became used to the climate conditions. [1] The losses at sea included three supply ships carrying 500 vehicles. This left the infantrymen no alternative but to march through the shadeless, waterless, increasingly hilly terrain in temperatures above 40 °C (104 °F). [1] Despite these conditions, the Canadian casualties were low, morale was high and success came easily and swiftly. [2]
On the morning of 6 August, the Canadians' active participation in the Sicilian Campaign was brought to an end when the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry Regiment took Monte Seggio. From here the Canadians played no further part in the battle for Sicily, which went on for another ten days, and were withdrawn into reserve for a well-earned rest. The Canadians had made a contribution to the campaign out of all proportion to their numbers. Their arduous 120 miles (190 km) trek from Pachino to the Simeto had taken them further than any other British division, and they had borne the brunt of the Eighth Army’s battle in the two hard weeks of fighting from Leonforte to the doorstep of Adrano. This earned them high praise from their Eighth Army commanders and comrades. The Canadians even impressed the Germans who stated they were "good soldier material" and even reported that "Canadians [are] harder in attack than Americans. In general fair ways of fighting. In fieldcraft superior to our own troops. Very mobile at night, surprise break-ins, clever infiltrations at night with small groups between our strong points." [3] Most importantly, from a national perspective, they had also won Canada’s first victories of World War II. [1] Mcnaughton responded with "Canada will be very pleased at your achievement [in Sicily]." [2]
Overall, the Sicilian Campaign was a notably strong beginning to a string of various Canadian victories throughout the rest of World War II.
References
I hope not. I have Undid revision 529951802 by Nirvana77 for as Wikipedians we are taught to "Assume Good Faith". As far as I can tell "Odds And Sods" has done his homework and consulted in the main "Allied" books, except for one or two "Italian" books to get some balance, and has provided the full name of the author, and the relevant book and page for us wikipedians to consult.-- 199.245.56.11 ( talk) 01:13, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
The German Wikipedia page also reports that 116.681 Italians were captured and says that the Italians lost 4325 killed and 32.500 wounded. The page also claims that 4678 Germans were killed, 13.500 were wounded and 5532 captured. ODDSANDSODDS got it mixed up (the number of Italian dead with the actual number of German dead). I will make a few corrections regarding German casualties in the next few minutes.-- 178.18.250.167 ( talk) 04:04, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
I believe there is some confusion in this section's lead paragraph regarding the American drops. The article begins by describing the 505th's D-Day assault drop objectives, then confuses the narrative by describing the fratricide events involving the 504th's reinforcing drop 48 hours later - without noting the difference in unit, time, place, etc. It seems that whoever wrote this (or subsequently edited it?) mashed up the two events into a single episode. These were two separate drops involving two separate regiments, spaced 48 hours apart. 98.255.89.22 ( talk) 18:41, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
I see no justification for the sudden addition of the American English banner. Until the recent change, all the words where there is a difference have been in British English (armour, defence, words ending in -ise, date formats etc) except in the use of proper names (eg 2nd Armored Division). It dpesn't matter who started the page, in accordance with WP:RETAIN it should remain in the form it has habitually been i.e. Br Eng. so I'm reverting the recent change. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 09:08, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Actually, I'll leave the -ize words because it is a permitted alternative spelling in Br. Eng. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 09:11, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
I found this other page (see link hereunder) where the same picture is used to represent the bombardment of Bari. Can someone please verify if the picture is from Sicily or Bari?
http://perdurabo10.tripod.com/ships/id305.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.249.123 ( talk) 22:03, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
~300 American paratroopers were killed or wounded when an American naval squadron opened fire on them en route to their drop at 600 feet. I guess that is extraneous information, but I think it is very important. It is morale sapping and has a tinge of stupidity implied in the wrongful-firing forces, when the stupidity implied lies with the implementers lack of completeness and thus competence- a vastly far more dangerous implication as it concerns a component of the very command structure itself rather than a score of apparently poorly reigned gunners.
And double so on archival information meant to benefit i.e.: put this topic not only in the context of such material but of course into the awareness of everyone reading it, especially a young person accessing it who is pursuing a military career and studies made by this person in the past may save lives in the future.
Once again, it should be addressed as part of each such documentation/study/war collage to allow human-beings to encompass a complete thus competent ability to dot "every i and cross every t", so to speak. An "orientation" on such a topic is almost useless and while it is known as the current manner of addressing this topic of several branches of the American military services, it is also known that during World War II "when the British fire, the Germans duck, when the Germans fire, the allies duck, when the Americans fire, everyone ducks".
For What It's Worth: Should be not only included, but also be known as a component of the primary results data (a implementation indicator, and implementation makes, impairs or breaks any plan) on after action reports tendered to command. This puts it again in the thought-order of the human-beings that comprise (a/the) command. The highest command will be especially attentive. Their "plan" was ingenious perhaps, but in an aspect(logistic awareness in this case) was poorly executed by one or a few of those that comprise their staff, other secretaries, adjuncts and liaisons- what else is not being thought through by those that "also serve" that may end up in a failed operation in the future. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.238.33.2 ( talk) 01:39, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
De facto, the number of allied soldiers reached nearly the amount of 500,000 in Sicily. It is quite weird the way it has been made the distinction between the initial and the peak strength. it is really misleading!! Magnagr ( talk) 01:32, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
This article states the Maddox was sunk by Italian Stukas but it's own article states it was sunk by a German Ju 88. Both claims are sourced.
Could someone clear this up please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.210.114.6 ( talk) 12:48, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
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Occorrerebbe dire che da parte degli Stati Maggiori delle Forze Armate italiane e e dei Comandi tedeschi in Italia l’operazione di sbarco degli in Sicilia era attesa e, contrariamente a quanto troppo spesso viene affermato con troppa enfasi, non generò alcuna sorpresa nei comandi dell’Asse, dal momento che non servirono ad ingannarli i vari espedienti realizzati dagli Alleati. Il più famoso fu quello del cadavere di un uomo deceduto in Inghilterra di polmonite e che, sotto il nome fittizio di “maggiore Martin” e per simularne la morte per annegamento, fu mollato in mare dal sommergibile Serap e fatto arenare sulle coste spagnole di Cadice, con lettere contraffatte di alti ufficiali britannici che indicavano la Grecia quale obiettivo dello sbarco. Nessuna forza tedesca, com’è stato sostenuto per vantare il presunto successo dell’Operazione “Martin”, lasciò la Sicilia che, anzi, fu per quanto possibile rinforzata. In definitiva, e con buona pace per chi ci crede, l’Operazione “Martin” non servì a nulla.
Francesco Mattesini
Roma, 18 Gennaio 2018 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.45.233.224 ( talk) 10:46, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
As a non-expert reading this article for the first time, it's striking how odd the general tone is. It gives the overall impression that the Italians/Axis won the battle for Sicily. Every single action is described in terms of Italian forces "fighting off", "pushing back", "breaking through" various Allied units. It's extremely strange. Perhaps a concerted (and perhaps justified?) effort to highlight the brave resistance of many Axis troops has gone too far. There are more descriptions of Italians winning actions than losing, which surely, considering the end result, cannot be an accurate description of the campaign. 2001:B07:2E2:DFDC:B4A3:3B06:DC25:7A78 ( talk) 02:52, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
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The flag icon on the article indicates that British Indian forces participated in the campaign, but there is no mention of their contribution, casualties, etc. Can anyone add info on this?
Why is there no mention of the Canadian contribution? One would think they weren't even there.
I do not beleive that this one was larger than Normandy. Will try to prove it. Beanbatch 22:22, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Operation Husky was the largest amphibious assault of the war including Normandy. In some ways it can be considered to be the largest amphibious assault ever launched all at once as Gallipoli, while larger, it was done over a series of weeks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.202.148.60 ( talk • contribs) 15:36, 20 January 2006
Where do the numbers come from that support the following claim: "casualties on the Axis side totalled 29,000, with 140,000 captured". According to [1] total German KIAs and MIAs were 57,800 + 18,300 for July 1943 and 58,000 + 26,400 for August 1943, including the battles of Kursk and Kharkov and all other fighting on the eastern front, that is 44,700 MIA on all fronts combined. 140,000 captured on Sicily would mean how many Italians? 143,000? Yes, I can see that they are quoted from [2] but that site does not claim what source it used in it's turn.
Also, the impact on the battle of Kursk was not that big. It might be worth mentioning that there is a big discussion concerning these issues on the talk page for that battle.
-- itpastorn 15:22, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes i agree too, i have been adding all the casualties from the german campaings acording to wikipedia battlebox operations and the total summ is more than the overall german causalties on WW2!!!.(maybe come soldiers where casualties more than one time but is still to difficult to believe) From any way or another, dont trust the casualties box in the internet. Trust official figures from each combatant thats better, trusting in a official casualties report in one side and the aproximtions of the other is a POV. That should be avoided.
The Italians in Sicily were 230,000 (with the fascist Militia). The Fallen of the Axis were 4,278 Italians and 4,325 Germans. Alexander said "we have taken 132,000 prisoners." (Eddy Bauer, "Storia controversa della Seconda Guerra Mondiale"). Most of the Italian soldiers were Sicilians.
SSG Cornelius Seon (Retired) 21:05, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
There is a project in place to coordinate all of the Military articles so that duplication of efforts, and better utilization of collaberative efforts ca be achieved. SSG Cornelius Seon (Retired) 00:27, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
This was recently added into the "lessons learned" para regarding Allied interoperability: "Indeed, a few months later, Montgomery's initial assessment of the Operation Overlord plan included a request for four Airborne Divisions."
I'm wondering why this was included? It seems to suggest Sicily was the reason for having paratroopers in Overlord, but they had been used many times before - North Africa and at least one Commando raid. They had also been in the original plan for Dieppe (which Montgomery had a hand in), so if the suggestion is that Sicily proved a need for paratroopers to be in on D-Day, I'd suggest Allied planners knew full well about the capabilities of parachute troops long before that. Comments? The sentence seems out of place as is. Michael Dorosh 14:34, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
In the text I don`t see a word about the German-Italian counter-offensive of Gela (July 11) of the German armoured division "Hermann Göring" and of the Italian division "Livorno". 600 soldiers of the "Livorno" started a frontal attack and were destroyed. It was the last offensive of the Italian Army during the war 1940-43. Moreover I don`t see a word about the battle of Valledolmo against the division "Assietta" (July 21)(sources are Attilio Tamaro and Eddy Bauer). The important role played by the Italo-American mafia and by the sicilian separatist who corroded the Italian units made up by Sicilians and "prepared" the Sicilian population isn`t to be undervalued.
I add that on July 12, 1943 the US-Air Force destroyed the H.Q. of the Italian 6th Army in Piazza Armerina and this was important because the 6th Army, practically didn`t get regular orders any more.
DMorpeheus, now I guess I have understood what you meant. No, thanks, my English is too rudimental. You can improve the article better than me!
Is there a convention for commanders in the infobox? On the Allied side we currently have the army group commander (fair enough) then the two army commanders (ditto) but then one Corps commander (Bradley) out of a possible four. Then one divisional commander (Simonds) out of a possible 12 (or more if you include replacements) Then Andrew McNaughton is included although he wasn't in the chain of command for this operation (any more than the members of say the US or British chiefs of staff). On the Axis side we have Hitler and Mussolini - why? After all we don't have Churchill or Roosevelt in the box. We have the army commander Guzzoni (fine) and Corps commander Hube but not Corps commanders of the Italian XII and XVI Corps. Also, the German troops in Sicily, although under Guzzoni, actually took their orders from Kesselring and von Senger und Etterling (the German liaison officer to Guzzoni), so there is an argument to include them. Unless this provokes a howl of protest, I am proposing to remove in a couple of days evryone except the army / army group commanders - all the other names can be found in the order of battle —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kirrages ( talk • contribs) 17:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC).
Can anyone write somthing about the preparations that where done in Malta for Operation Husky? The information I have states that the operation was coordinated from Malta in the Lascaris tunnels in Valletta and the landing ships gathered in Malta. Also on Gozo an emergency landing strip was done in a few days time. Also during the invasion the naval dockyard in Malta was used for emergency repairs on allies ships. Malteseman1983 15:40, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Seems the intro became garbled at some point. Part of it currently reads The invasion of the island was codenamed Operation Husky and it launched the Italian Campaign amphibious operation of World War II in terms of men landed on the beaches and of frontage. I hadn't followed the article before so I have no clue how the intro read before and the change doesn't seem to be recent. Maybe it should be changed to something like The invasion of the island was codenamed Operation Husky and it launched the Italian Campaign. It was the largest amphibious operation of World War II in terms of men landed on the beaches and of frontage. But something else might also have been deleted so I'd prefer it if someone more experienced with this article took a look first.-- Caranorn 16:26, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
There is an error in the number of Canadian casualties from this part of the Italian Campaign. The Canadian casualties were not in the range of over 2,300. In fact, with POWs et al, subtract 1,000. Considering the original author provides the link to wwii.ca/page25.html, such an error is inexcusable, even if it was only mathematic. These can be further verified at http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=feature/italy2004/italy_educators/italyinfosheet . I have also corrected the total casualties list in the boxed info. Wikig39 14:53, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Anyone have information on the naval participation in this operation? Oberiko ( talk) 00:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I have rolled back some dubious edits from this anonymous user. If anyone can cite or otherwise confirm this information, please do so. NewEnglandYankee ( talk) 18:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi all. I was bold, and rearranged the belligerents' flags in the infobox in alphabetical order. Seems to me this should be the preferred order for all such battles, and seems less denigrating to the "lesser" allies without taking anything away from the "bigger" allies. Comments are, or course, welcome. Esseh ( talk) 23:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi all. The map of the Allied landings needs some re-working. The Allied part is OK, as far as I can see, but the Axis part is labeled "German counteroffensives", or some such. However, of the three Axis Divisions shown, only the Hermann Goering Division is German - the other two are Italian! Should be "Axis defenders" or whatever! Esseh ( talk) 00:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
The text says there were four parachute drops - two British, two American, one Canadian and one Australian (which adds to six!!). Also there are no Canadian or Australian airborn troops listed in the Operation Husky order of battle. Any idea what is going on here? Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 09:43, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I see that a recent edit has changed the number of Italian and German troops in Sicily from 190,000 and 40,000 (cited from Jowett) to 275,000 and 75,000 (cited from Dickson - unless the citation refers only to the aircraft numbers). Hoyt has 200,000 + 30,000. As far as I'm aware the Germans had only two divisions in Sicily so 75,000 looks over-cooked. Any thoughts out there? Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 22:55, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
hat exact page are you refering to?
The book FROM THE NORMANDY BEACHES TO THE BALTIC SEA states that "The Axis garrison of 200,000 Italians and 30,000 Germans had no prospect of actually holding the island; but General Alaxander, commanding the 15th Army Group, exerted little control, and his army commanders, Patton and Montgomery, hammered out a course of action of their own [4]." The book THE ITALIAN ARMY 1940-1945: ITALY 1943-1945 says "The Axis forces defending Sicily, nominally under the command of General Guzzoni, consisted of 230,000 men including 40,000 German troops; these latter included elite units such as Gen Paul Conrath's Panzer Division 'Hermann Goring', north of Gela, and the 15th Panzer Grenadier Division [5]." And the book AERIAL INTERDICTION reports that "The German infantry numbered 32,000; the Italians 200,000 [6]" and you would have to be simple-minded to conclude that the author is referring solely to foot-sloggers. And yes the author quotes Carlo D'Este when claiming the Germans shipped reinforcements to Sicily but where is there an online account or book of pilots straffing reinforcements heading to the island??? And what was the composition of these reinforcements???Now going back to the Axis numbers, the authors of the book SEA POWER:A NAVAL HISTORY report that "There were in Sicily two German and four Italian combat divisions, amounting to about 255,000 troops [7]." And the book WORLD WAR II GLIDER PILOTS claims that "Ten Italian and two German combat divisions totalling over 200,000 troops were waiting for the Allies in Sicily [8]." Even the ordinary soldiers of the Invasion force, like Hollis Stabler in the book NO ONE EVER ASKED ME report only about half the ridiculous figure now approximating 400,000 "Gozzoni's total resources by the end of June 1943 included six coastal divisions, two coastal brigades, one coastal regiment, four mobile divisions (a total of 200,000 men), and two mobile German divisions [9]. Another book, At The Water's Edge that goes into some detail says "The Italian Sixth Army, commanded by General d' Armata Alfredo Guzzoni, was responsible for the defense of the island. Before the arrival of German reinforcements in June, the Sixth Army consisted of two corps headquarters, five static coastal divisions, four mobile divisions, two coastal brigades, and other miscellaneous units for a total of two hundred thousand men [10]."—Preceding unsigned comment added by Flylikeadodo ( talk • contribs) 01:14, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone have/know somewhere where specific casualties for the German and Italian forces can be found? Such as captured and wounded because those are currently missing. Red4tribe ( talk) 10:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
checked the order of battle article and the Free Fench were there, high command was british but the french fought there so you have to add the Free French flag in the combattants list. Cliché Online ( talk) 08:18, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
How can the allied invasion of Scilily come before the second battle of El Alamein? 86.15.144.198 ( talk) 09:23, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Don't understand why the changes from Italian Fascism to Kingdom of Italy, an ally both in WWI and for the last year of WW II. The allies were fighting Germans and some Italians in Sicily. It seems to me that Mussolini, a fascist, dutifully declared an unpopular war against the US. Student7 ( talk) 00:06, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
The Canadian participation section unbalances the article, giving undue prominence to the presence of a single formation. Most of the section is not about planning, which it should be, given the article's structure. I propose therefore to move this content to the 1st Canadian Infantry Division article which is more appropriate. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 09:44, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
The 1st Canadian Infantry Division was included in the Allied invasion of Sicily at the insistence of the Canadian Prime Minister, William Lyon Mackenzie King, and the Canadian Military Headquarters in the UK. This request was granted by the British, displacing the veteran British 3rd Infantry Division. The change was not finalized until 27 April 1943, when General Andrew McNaughton, the commander of the First Canadian Army, deemed Husky to be a viable military undertaking and agreed to the detachment of both 1st Canadian Infantry Division and 1st Canadian Tank Brigade. The "Red Patch Division" was added to British XXX Corps to become part of the Eighth Army. [1]
The Canadian forces were initially commanded by Major General H. L. N. Salmon, who died in an airplane accident in the early days of planning. He was succeeded by Major General Guy Simonds, whose lack of experience was offset by an impressive career and a formidable military intellect. [1] The Canadians had served in the United Kingdom for a number of years, and before the Sicilian Campaign, considered themselves no more than "a sort of adjunct to the British Homeguard." [2] They had, with some exceptions (like the Dieppe raid by the 2nd Canadian Infantry Division), not served under fire so far. Sicily would be the first divisional-scale combat operation in World War II for the Canadian Army. [2] The Dieppe Raid had done nothing to still the voices in Canada clamouring about the inactivity of Canadian troops thus far into the war. The Canadian participation in this campaign quieted the uproar of the Canadian home front.
The 1st Canadian Division was always categorized as a branch of the British Army, despite its differences and individuality as an independent force. The Canadians, unlike the rest of 15th Army Group, had not yet served in the Mediterranean, and had not become acclimatized to its searing temperatures. That reality, combined with a shortage of transport caused by losses at sea, resulted in 1st Canadian Division and its tank brigade being halted just days into the operation, for a much needed rest until they became used to the climate conditions. [1] The losses at sea included three supply ships carrying 500 vehicles. This left the infantrymen no alternative but to march through the shadeless, waterless, increasingly hilly terrain in temperatures above 40 °C (104 °F). [1] Despite these conditions, the Canadian casualties were low, morale was high and success came easily and swiftly. [2]
On the morning of 6 August, the Canadians' active participation in the Sicilian Campaign was brought to an end when the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry Regiment took Monte Seggio. From here the Canadians played no further part in the battle for Sicily, which went on for another ten days, and were withdrawn into reserve for a well-earned rest. The Canadians had made a contribution to the campaign out of all proportion to their numbers. Their arduous 120 miles (190 km) trek from Pachino to the Simeto had taken them further than any other British division, and they had borne the brunt of the Eighth Army’s battle in the two hard weeks of fighting from Leonforte to the doorstep of Adrano. This earned them high praise from their Eighth Army commanders and comrades. The Canadians even impressed the Germans who stated they were "good soldier material" and even reported that "Canadians [are] harder in attack than Americans. In general fair ways of fighting. In fieldcraft superior to our own troops. Very mobile at night, surprise break-ins, clever infiltrations at night with small groups between our strong points." [3] Most importantly, from a national perspective, they had also won Canada’s first victories of World War II. [1] Mcnaughton responded with "Canada will be very pleased at your achievement [in Sicily]." [2]
Overall, the Sicilian Campaign was a notably strong beginning to a string of various Canadian victories throughout the rest of World War II.
References
I hope not. I have Undid revision 529951802 by Nirvana77 for as Wikipedians we are taught to "Assume Good Faith". As far as I can tell "Odds And Sods" has done his homework and consulted in the main "Allied" books, except for one or two "Italian" books to get some balance, and has provided the full name of the author, and the relevant book and page for us wikipedians to consult.-- 199.245.56.11 ( talk) 01:13, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
The German Wikipedia page also reports that 116.681 Italians were captured and says that the Italians lost 4325 killed and 32.500 wounded. The page also claims that 4678 Germans were killed, 13.500 were wounded and 5532 captured. ODDSANDSODDS got it mixed up (the number of Italian dead with the actual number of German dead). I will make a few corrections regarding German casualties in the next few minutes.-- 178.18.250.167 ( talk) 04:04, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
I believe there is some confusion in this section's lead paragraph regarding the American drops. The article begins by describing the 505th's D-Day assault drop objectives, then confuses the narrative by describing the fratricide events involving the 504th's reinforcing drop 48 hours later - without noting the difference in unit, time, place, etc. It seems that whoever wrote this (or subsequently edited it?) mashed up the two events into a single episode. These were two separate drops involving two separate regiments, spaced 48 hours apart. 98.255.89.22 ( talk) 18:41, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
I see no justification for the sudden addition of the American English banner. Until the recent change, all the words where there is a difference have been in British English (armour, defence, words ending in -ise, date formats etc) except in the use of proper names (eg 2nd Armored Division). It dpesn't matter who started the page, in accordance with WP:RETAIN it should remain in the form it has habitually been i.e. Br Eng. so I'm reverting the recent change. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 09:08, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Actually, I'll leave the -ize words because it is a permitted alternative spelling in Br. Eng. Stephen Kirrage talk - contribs 09:11, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
I found this other page (see link hereunder) where the same picture is used to represent the bombardment of Bari. Can someone please verify if the picture is from Sicily or Bari?
http://perdurabo10.tripod.com/ships/id305.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.249.123 ( talk) 22:03, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
~300 American paratroopers were killed or wounded when an American naval squadron opened fire on them en route to their drop at 600 feet. I guess that is extraneous information, but I think it is very important. It is morale sapping and has a tinge of stupidity implied in the wrongful-firing forces, when the stupidity implied lies with the implementers lack of completeness and thus competence- a vastly far more dangerous implication as it concerns a component of the very command structure itself rather than a score of apparently poorly reigned gunners.
And double so on archival information meant to benefit i.e.: put this topic not only in the context of such material but of course into the awareness of everyone reading it, especially a young person accessing it who is pursuing a military career and studies made by this person in the past may save lives in the future.
Once again, it should be addressed as part of each such documentation/study/war collage to allow human-beings to encompass a complete thus competent ability to dot "every i and cross every t", so to speak. An "orientation" on such a topic is almost useless and while it is known as the current manner of addressing this topic of several branches of the American military services, it is also known that during World War II "when the British fire, the Germans duck, when the Germans fire, the allies duck, when the Americans fire, everyone ducks".
For What It's Worth: Should be not only included, but also be known as a component of the primary results data (a implementation indicator, and implementation makes, impairs or breaks any plan) on after action reports tendered to command. This puts it again in the thought-order of the human-beings that comprise (a/the) command. The highest command will be especially attentive. Their "plan" was ingenious perhaps, but in an aspect(logistic awareness in this case) was poorly executed by one or a few of those that comprise their staff, other secretaries, adjuncts and liaisons- what else is not being thought through by those that "also serve" that may end up in a failed operation in the future. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.238.33.2 ( talk) 01:39, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
De facto, the number of allied soldiers reached nearly the amount of 500,000 in Sicily. It is quite weird the way it has been made the distinction between the initial and the peak strength. it is really misleading!! Magnagr ( talk) 01:32, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
This article states the Maddox was sunk by Italian Stukas but it's own article states it was sunk by a German Ju 88. Both claims are sourced.
Could someone clear this up please? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.210.114.6 ( talk) 12:48, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
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Occorrerebbe dire che da parte degli Stati Maggiori delle Forze Armate italiane e e dei Comandi tedeschi in Italia l’operazione di sbarco degli in Sicilia era attesa e, contrariamente a quanto troppo spesso viene affermato con troppa enfasi, non generò alcuna sorpresa nei comandi dell’Asse, dal momento che non servirono ad ingannarli i vari espedienti realizzati dagli Alleati. Il più famoso fu quello del cadavere di un uomo deceduto in Inghilterra di polmonite e che, sotto il nome fittizio di “maggiore Martin” e per simularne la morte per annegamento, fu mollato in mare dal sommergibile Serap e fatto arenare sulle coste spagnole di Cadice, con lettere contraffatte di alti ufficiali britannici che indicavano la Grecia quale obiettivo dello sbarco. Nessuna forza tedesca, com’è stato sostenuto per vantare il presunto successo dell’Operazione “Martin”, lasciò la Sicilia che, anzi, fu per quanto possibile rinforzata. In definitiva, e con buona pace per chi ci crede, l’Operazione “Martin” non servì a nulla.
Francesco Mattesini
Roma, 18 Gennaio 2018 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.45.233.224 ( talk) 10:46, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
As a non-expert reading this article for the first time, it's striking how odd the general tone is. It gives the overall impression that the Italians/Axis won the battle for Sicily. Every single action is described in terms of Italian forces "fighting off", "pushing back", "breaking through" various Allied units. It's extremely strange. Perhaps a concerted (and perhaps justified?) effort to highlight the brave resistance of many Axis troops has gone too far. There are more descriptions of Italians winning actions than losing, which surely, considering the end result, cannot be an accurate description of the campaign. 2001:B07:2E2:DFDC:B4A3:3B06:DC25:7A78 ( talk) 02:52, 16 October 2022 (UTC)