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The Controversies section is probably the weakest though. It could probably be changed to Controversies and criticisms; the article would then have to include the various criticisms USAD has received over the years - most notably those from California coaches, and Coach Hatem from North Hollywood High School in particular.
On my talk page a while ago, Yohhans ( talk · contribs) suggested that the following ought to be added to the article. Since I don't have access to actual paper newspapers, these are the best I could find:
Anything else along these lines that people could think of? Criticisms of USAD is probably the only real thing missing from this article; a prose cleanup would be enough to get this article to FA. NuclearWarfare ( Talk) 03:11, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
These references used to be used, but were then replaced. Since they might have a future use, I'm moving them here:
NuclearWarfare ( Talk) 23:01, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
NuclearWarfare ( Talk) 03:39, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, it's pretty well-known that all states use different medals. However, since this is the United States Academic Decathlon article, would it be better to instead use a picture of say, a bronze, silver & gold medal from USAD itself? I know that the E-Nationals medals are the same as the Nationals medals, and I've taken at least one in every category. I could take a picture of them, and upload them to Wikimedia, if that would be helpful.—Preceding unsigned comment added by TechVars ( talk • contribs)
Well, I know USAD no longer has anything about this at usad.org, but for the first two years that they offered Small-School E-Nationals, the guidelines were fewer than 950 students, not < 650. I guess to allow for a broader net? It wasn't until they added the Medium School category that the current school size guidelines were established. I'll look into digging up a source on that one, but if I can't find one, shall I just add it anyway? TechVars ( talk) 04:08, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
I will post my questions and comments here as I read the article.
Comment I've been over the article again. It is looking much better. I would suggest one final copyedit from someone other than myself before FAC. Laser brain, Yllosubmarine, or Brianboulton might be willing to help. Awadewit ( talk) 04:59, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
"Academic Decathlon Could Be Finished for LA Kids". NBC. June 23, 2009. Archived from the original on June 24, 2009. Retrieved June 24, 2009.
I just feel this site should not be used to promote someone's company and should be used only to give information regarding United States Academic Decathlon. By posting photos of vendors such as Demidec Dan, it seems to cheapen the site to an ad for his company. Photos should be restricted to USAD and students, not vendors! Llamagirl1 ( talk) 15:42, 24 June 2009 (UTC)Llamagirl 1
I don't agree. There are two companies that were created to make a living for a few people off the backs of USAD, a "small industry" is inaccurate. While these companies exist soley as a result of Academic Decathlon, I still don't think that their self-promoting photos etc. should be on the USAD wiki site. I believe that privilege should be confined to USAD and the students that support the program. Demidec, which produces some nice study materials, should promote on their own wiki site is all. 76.164.53.118 ( talk) 19:16, 5 July 2009 (UTC)Llamagirl1
I reviewed this article (as you can see above), so I thought I would comment here. First off, thanks so much for contributing to this article and thinking about how Wikipedia is dealing with the issue of presenting for-profit companies. As I am sure you are aware, we have had trouble in the past with companies promoting themselves and other such issues. We have to be very careful with how we present this material and you were very astute to raise these questions. So, let's look at the material in the article. In order to decide whether or not this is promotional, let's look at some of the sentences from the article:
In the 1990s, various companies were established to research subjects and provide practice tests to teams. Two of the major ones were Acalon Cards and Exams and DemiDec, formed by former coach Dan Spetner[86] and former student[87] Daniel Berdichevsky,[88] respectively. The two offer exams and study guides that can augment or replace USAD's official Resource and Research Guides and exams.[86][89][90] USAD explicitly discouraged teams from ordering materials from third-party companies in the late 1998,[91] though it later removed their discouragement from the curriculum page.[92] However, USAD republished their discouragement just a few weeks after removing it.[93] However USAD did not publish such a warning in 2002.
The language here is not promotional, in my opinion. It presents the facts straightforwardly ("various companies", "two of the major ones"). It offers descriptions of the books "exams and study guides" "augment or replace" (note that it is not endorsing either choice). The paragraph also presents the official USAD response - in detail. As these books are an important part of the studying process (whether published by AcDec or not), it is essential that the article mention them. I do not think that this article is an advertisement for them.
The other question you raise is about the photo. This is a very subtle issue. You, I think, view this as "product placement" or "viral advertising". However, Daniel Berdichevsky is clearly a notable person in the AcDec world, so having a picture of him is not inappropriate, in my view. This is like having a picture of Andrew Carnegie in an article about steel. He was a good businessman related to the field (obviously AcDec is a bit smaller than steel, but you see the point).
What are your thoughts about these arguments? Please do let us know. Perhaps we have missed something! Wikipedia is all about discussion! Awadewit ( talk) 21:42, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Wow, I would not compare anyone's involvement in USAD to Andrew Carnegie's involvement in the steel industry other than its creater, Robert Peterson. A former high scoring student and current for profit vendor is not worthy of that comparison! This company does not have the expense of research and development of the materials, they simply "borrow" USAD created, researched, and produced materials and expand upon someone elses creation. Then, they sell them to make a profit for themselves. No creativity there. There are many people who are responsible for the success of the program, and USAD deals with hundreds of companies. Maybe we should contact USAD and ask them for a list and invite all vendors and others involved to have a section on the wiki page? No, most mature and reputable people and companies would not be so brazen in their self promotion. I believe that this page is getting overloaded with exessive information. I agree that there should be mention of Demidec, DB is no longer the highest scoring student, but photos and an entire section is just too much. Lamagirl ( talk) 14:43, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
According to USAD officials some of the information regarding their position on third party materials is inaccurate and should be removed, or restated. I think the photo should be removed and the inaccuracies corrected. I would also like to add a photo of Dr. Peterson as he IS the Andrew Carnegie of USAD. Lamagirl ( talk) 18:53, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
I checked the source and it seems that USAD only eiscouraged purchasing 3rd party materials in regard to Art and Music as all of their test materials came directly from their own curriculum. Quote is as follows. "5...d) VERY IMPORTANT - ALL TEST QUESTIONS ON ART AND MUSIC WILL COME FROM FOUR SOURCES EXCLUSIVELY: THE ART BOOKLET (PICTURES AND TEXT), THE OPERA COMPENDIUM, THE MUSIC CD, AND THE ART AND MUSIC SECTIONS OF THE SUBJECT AREAS GUIDE. Purchasing study materials from commercial companies is a waste of money."
I think this is a bit fuzzy, but does not mean that USAD discouraged all purchases of 3rd party materials. I have requested and received a photo of Dr. Peterson from USAD to include on the Wiki site with their permission.
I still think the photo of Daniel B. should be removed and that students should be featured as they are the focus of USAD, not 3rd party vendors... Llamagirl1 ( talk) 18:19, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
I spoke to USAD, Ms. Chafe and she gave permission to use the photo Dr. R. Peterson on the site as they own the copyright. It is the same photo used on their webpage. Unfortunately, I do not have the status to publish the photo on Wiki. Is there someone who can do that. I have it started and placed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Llamagirl1 ( talk • contribs) 15:26, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
This article contains a number of quips against the complaints made by coaches surrounding the AD, rather than simply stating what happened along with any resolution. This, coupled with the inclusion of DemiDec, as well as the generalization of scandals as being "small," constitute a strong bias favoring the USAD. In addition, the lack of coverage regarding patterns of schools qualifying for national competition (i.e. Whitney-Young in Chicago qualifying 22 out of the last 23 years) certainly demands investigation. The fact that the author, as knowledgeable as they are about the Academic Decathlon, chose to refer to scandals surrounding the AD as "small" while ignoring the largest scandal surrounding the competition altogether - educational segregation - is absolutely deplorable. This article should be stricken of its star altogether, and further research performed discussing the viability of this program altogether. Brigg1st ( talk) 22:11, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests#April 25. NW ( Talk) 01:07, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
These references appears to be exactly the same. Regards, SunCreator ( talk) 13:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Imagine my surprise to see an article I started over 6 years ago be featured on the front page. Good job :) CryptoDerk ( talk) 08:52, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
I was a 1987 Decathlon participant, and I am certain that differential and integral calculus was covered on the examination, though not in depth as Adv. Placement Calculus AB. -- Catofgrey ( talk) 17:25, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
are there any online versions of the guides or pdf downloads of them that i can cite? thanks. 99.189.105.78 ( talk) 03:53, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
See File:CA Leg Res 234 1981.jpg. (Probably no action is needed to the article, but I thought editors here might find this of interest.) — David Eppstein ( talk) 23:50, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
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I am reviewing this article for WP:URFA/2020, an initiative to review older featured articles to determine if they still meet the FA criteria. I am concerned that this article's history section is not arranged chronologically, and that there are no post-2010 events described. This makes me believe that the article has not been updated in some time. Is anyone interested in addressing these concerns, or should this go to WP:FAR? @ NuclearWarfare: one of the FAC nominators who might still be active. Z1720 ( talk) 01:54, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
United States Academic Decathlon is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 26, 2010. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
The Controversies section is probably the weakest though. It could probably be changed to Controversies and criticisms; the article would then have to include the various criticisms USAD has received over the years - most notably those from California coaches, and Coach Hatem from North Hollywood High School in particular.
On my talk page a while ago, Yohhans ( talk · contribs) suggested that the following ought to be added to the article. Since I don't have access to actual paper newspapers, these are the best I could find:
Anything else along these lines that people could think of? Criticisms of USAD is probably the only real thing missing from this article; a prose cleanup would be enough to get this article to FA. NuclearWarfare ( Talk) 03:11, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
These references used to be used, but were then replaced. Since they might have a future use, I'm moving them here:
NuclearWarfare ( Talk) 23:01, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
NuclearWarfare ( Talk) 03:39, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, it's pretty well-known that all states use different medals. However, since this is the United States Academic Decathlon article, would it be better to instead use a picture of say, a bronze, silver & gold medal from USAD itself? I know that the E-Nationals medals are the same as the Nationals medals, and I've taken at least one in every category. I could take a picture of them, and upload them to Wikimedia, if that would be helpful.—Preceding unsigned comment added by TechVars ( talk • contribs)
Well, I know USAD no longer has anything about this at usad.org, but for the first two years that they offered Small-School E-Nationals, the guidelines were fewer than 950 students, not < 650. I guess to allow for a broader net? It wasn't until they added the Medium School category that the current school size guidelines were established. I'll look into digging up a source on that one, but if I can't find one, shall I just add it anyway? TechVars ( talk) 04:08, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
I will post my questions and comments here as I read the article.
Comment I've been over the article again. It is looking much better. I would suggest one final copyedit from someone other than myself before FAC. Laser brain, Yllosubmarine, or Brianboulton might be willing to help. Awadewit ( talk) 04:59, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
"Academic Decathlon Could Be Finished for LA Kids". NBC. June 23, 2009. Archived from the original on June 24, 2009. Retrieved June 24, 2009.
I just feel this site should not be used to promote someone's company and should be used only to give information regarding United States Academic Decathlon. By posting photos of vendors such as Demidec Dan, it seems to cheapen the site to an ad for his company. Photos should be restricted to USAD and students, not vendors! Llamagirl1 ( talk) 15:42, 24 June 2009 (UTC)Llamagirl 1
I don't agree. There are two companies that were created to make a living for a few people off the backs of USAD, a "small industry" is inaccurate. While these companies exist soley as a result of Academic Decathlon, I still don't think that their self-promoting photos etc. should be on the USAD wiki site. I believe that privilege should be confined to USAD and the students that support the program. Demidec, which produces some nice study materials, should promote on their own wiki site is all. 76.164.53.118 ( talk) 19:16, 5 July 2009 (UTC)Llamagirl1
I reviewed this article (as you can see above), so I thought I would comment here. First off, thanks so much for contributing to this article and thinking about how Wikipedia is dealing with the issue of presenting for-profit companies. As I am sure you are aware, we have had trouble in the past with companies promoting themselves and other such issues. We have to be very careful with how we present this material and you were very astute to raise these questions. So, let's look at the material in the article. In order to decide whether or not this is promotional, let's look at some of the sentences from the article:
In the 1990s, various companies were established to research subjects and provide practice tests to teams. Two of the major ones were Acalon Cards and Exams and DemiDec, formed by former coach Dan Spetner[86] and former student[87] Daniel Berdichevsky,[88] respectively. The two offer exams and study guides that can augment or replace USAD's official Resource and Research Guides and exams.[86][89][90] USAD explicitly discouraged teams from ordering materials from third-party companies in the late 1998,[91] though it later removed their discouragement from the curriculum page.[92] However, USAD republished their discouragement just a few weeks after removing it.[93] However USAD did not publish such a warning in 2002.
The language here is not promotional, in my opinion. It presents the facts straightforwardly ("various companies", "two of the major ones"). It offers descriptions of the books "exams and study guides" "augment or replace" (note that it is not endorsing either choice). The paragraph also presents the official USAD response - in detail. As these books are an important part of the studying process (whether published by AcDec or not), it is essential that the article mention them. I do not think that this article is an advertisement for them.
The other question you raise is about the photo. This is a very subtle issue. You, I think, view this as "product placement" or "viral advertising". However, Daniel Berdichevsky is clearly a notable person in the AcDec world, so having a picture of him is not inappropriate, in my view. This is like having a picture of Andrew Carnegie in an article about steel. He was a good businessman related to the field (obviously AcDec is a bit smaller than steel, but you see the point).
What are your thoughts about these arguments? Please do let us know. Perhaps we have missed something! Wikipedia is all about discussion! Awadewit ( talk) 21:42, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Wow, I would not compare anyone's involvement in USAD to Andrew Carnegie's involvement in the steel industry other than its creater, Robert Peterson. A former high scoring student and current for profit vendor is not worthy of that comparison! This company does not have the expense of research and development of the materials, they simply "borrow" USAD created, researched, and produced materials and expand upon someone elses creation. Then, they sell them to make a profit for themselves. No creativity there. There are many people who are responsible for the success of the program, and USAD deals with hundreds of companies. Maybe we should contact USAD and ask them for a list and invite all vendors and others involved to have a section on the wiki page? No, most mature and reputable people and companies would not be so brazen in their self promotion. I believe that this page is getting overloaded with exessive information. I agree that there should be mention of Demidec, DB is no longer the highest scoring student, but photos and an entire section is just too much. Lamagirl ( talk) 14:43, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
According to USAD officials some of the information regarding their position on third party materials is inaccurate and should be removed, or restated. I think the photo should be removed and the inaccuracies corrected. I would also like to add a photo of Dr. Peterson as he IS the Andrew Carnegie of USAD. Lamagirl ( talk) 18:53, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
I checked the source and it seems that USAD only eiscouraged purchasing 3rd party materials in regard to Art and Music as all of their test materials came directly from their own curriculum. Quote is as follows. "5...d) VERY IMPORTANT - ALL TEST QUESTIONS ON ART AND MUSIC WILL COME FROM FOUR SOURCES EXCLUSIVELY: THE ART BOOKLET (PICTURES AND TEXT), THE OPERA COMPENDIUM, THE MUSIC CD, AND THE ART AND MUSIC SECTIONS OF THE SUBJECT AREAS GUIDE. Purchasing study materials from commercial companies is a waste of money."
I think this is a bit fuzzy, but does not mean that USAD discouraged all purchases of 3rd party materials. I have requested and received a photo of Dr. Peterson from USAD to include on the Wiki site with their permission.
I still think the photo of Daniel B. should be removed and that students should be featured as they are the focus of USAD, not 3rd party vendors... Llamagirl1 ( talk) 18:19, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
I spoke to USAD, Ms. Chafe and she gave permission to use the photo Dr. R. Peterson on the site as they own the copyright. It is the same photo used on their webpage. Unfortunately, I do not have the status to publish the photo on Wiki. Is there someone who can do that. I have it started and placed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Llamagirl1 ( talk • contribs) 15:26, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
This article contains a number of quips against the complaints made by coaches surrounding the AD, rather than simply stating what happened along with any resolution. This, coupled with the inclusion of DemiDec, as well as the generalization of scandals as being "small," constitute a strong bias favoring the USAD. In addition, the lack of coverage regarding patterns of schools qualifying for national competition (i.e. Whitney-Young in Chicago qualifying 22 out of the last 23 years) certainly demands investigation. The fact that the author, as knowledgeable as they are about the Academic Decathlon, chose to refer to scandals surrounding the AD as "small" while ignoring the largest scandal surrounding the competition altogether - educational segregation - is absolutely deplorable. This article should be stricken of its star altogether, and further research performed discussing the viability of this program altogether. Brigg1st ( talk) 22:11, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests#April 25. NW ( Talk) 01:07, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
These references appears to be exactly the same. Regards, SunCreator ( talk) 13:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Imagine my surprise to see an article I started over 6 years ago be featured on the front page. Good job :) CryptoDerk ( talk) 08:52, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
I was a 1987 Decathlon participant, and I am certain that differential and integral calculus was covered on the examination, though not in depth as Adv. Placement Calculus AB. -- Catofgrey ( talk) 17:25, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
are there any online versions of the guides or pdf downloads of them that i can cite? thanks. 99.189.105.78 ( talk) 03:53, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
See File:CA Leg Res 234 1981.jpg. (Probably no action is needed to the article, but I thought editors here might find this of interest.) — David Eppstein ( talk) 23:50, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
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I am reviewing this article for WP:URFA/2020, an initiative to review older featured articles to determine if they still meet the FA criteria. I am concerned that this article's history section is not arranged chronologically, and that there are no post-2010 events described. This makes me believe that the article has not been updated in some time. Is anyone interested in addressing these concerns, or should this go to WP:FAR? @ NuclearWarfare: one of the FAC nominators who might still be active. Z1720 ( talk) 01:54, 28 December 2022 (UTC)