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![]() | On 28 August 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Alien autopsy to Alien Autopsy (1995 film). The result of the discussion was moved. |
Sky One have a documentary on this on the 4th of April that looks to finally put this one to bed [1] . Also a mention of the Ant and Dec film [2] might be worthwhile ( Emperor 13:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC))
The debate on whether the autopsied body is a very realistic mannequin, a girl with a genetic disorder (such as progeria or Turner's syndrome), or a real alien is still going on. It is also questionable whether the film material and the equipments and objects in the autopsy room actually date to the time in question. Pathologists have also questioned the techniques being used in the supposed autopsy. - it's an admitted fake hence the Ant & Dec film. Jooler 21:47, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
[ [5]—Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.160.237.138 ( talk) 02:18, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
People, come on! This is a hoax. It never happened. Look, I want to believe, but this film is a hoax. Aliens could be real, but that film is known as a hoax. The creator said so.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.218.13.185 ( talk) 21:35, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
A point of order, folks....
I acknowlede that the name "alien autopsy" is commonly attached to this ridiculous affair, and that "Alien autopsy" might be the correct name for the article. That said, and without wishing to sound pedantic, I think that the terms alien and autopsy are best avoided in the body of the article as far as possible, in the interest of strictly encyclopedic prose. Remember please, that autopsy is defined as the post-mortem examination of a human being, and that some of us human beings are, in fact, aliens, though not actually extraterrestrial. Even if the footage really had turned out to depict the post-mortem examination of an extraterrestrial, it still wouldn't show an alien autopsy. I've used examination (rather than autopsy), extraterrestrial being and dummy. I always figured that the thing was just a bloody meat puppet.... -- TheMadBaron 19:44, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
The intro says this article is about the phenominon of alien autopsy in general...if that's true, there seriously needs to be some coverage of some different topics. -- InShaneee 15:23, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Someone calling themselves Santilli editted this entry [6] and this was reverted but that version does come closer to a NPOV. As far as (the real) Santilli has said it isn't a hoax it is a reconstruction. Personally I think he is trying to have his cake and eat it (as well as spin this whole saga out for a bit longer) but if we are going to reflect both sides of the arguement the best we can say is that a lot of people consider this a hoax but Santilli claims there are tiny parts of the original footage mixed in with a "reconstruction" of it that he created. Unless someone can poke holes in his version of the story that is the best we can say. ( Emperor 21:06, 22 October 2006 (UTC))
This whole thing is lacking in sources and those that are here are of the more hardocre Skeptical variety and there does need to be some balance. There is a Fortean Times article online which gives more details [7] whihc has some interesting reactions from Mantle and the impact on BUFORA and British Ufology (my understanding was BUFORA didn't necessarily believe it but gave it a platform). I think the FT article was accompanied by a piece from Jenny Randles (who ran it at the time) about the feelings in the community at the time and I'll try and dig it out. Anyone got any more references? ( Emperor 19:25, 23 October 2006 (UTC))
I saw a television documentary about an extraterrestrial spacecraft crash in Russia and subsequent amateur post-mortem of extraterrestrials. I don't remember the title though. This event should be covered in this article too.
Sleigh
19:43, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The Biography WikiProject banner ended up on this talk page. I have removed it, as it shouldn't be here: the article this page is attatched to isn't a biography and doesn't discuss a person. — AnnaKucsma ( Talk to me!) 20:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
In the movie "Ghost World," a man approaches Enid and Rebecca to give them a flyer advertising a for a gig in which his band, "Alien Autopsy" will be playing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.31.192 ( talk) 06:52, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
The following addition to the article Alien Autopsy is suggested to make the article more broad in scope, and to add information for those of us interested in the Roswell Incident:
Several researchers have reported that an autopsy was conducted in the Roswell Army Air Base Hospital (now the site of the New Mexico Rehabilitation Center) on an alien recovered from the 1947 Roswell UFO Crash, although as usual, many conflicting claims and counter-claims surround the reports. In one popular story, Nurse Self drew sketches of the alien she had helped autopsy for Glenn Dennis when they met for coffee the next day in the Officer’s Club (now the site of the Eastern New Mexico University-Roswell Student Union Building). A mock-up of the autopsy scene, used in the 1994 Showtime movie, "Roswell," is a popular display in the UFO Museum in Roswell, NM. (Reference: Lynn Michelsohn. "Roswell, Your Travel Guide to the UFO Capital of the World!" Cleanan Press, 2008. ISBN# 978-0-9771614-7-8)
Comments? Professor73Q ( talk) 18:15, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Doesn't sound very encyclopedic to me. For starters it blandly states "...on an alien recovered..." as though it were a fact. Surely its an "alleged" alien and "Several researchers" sound like weasel words to me. Jschnur ( talk) 01:13, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Is "autopsy" a verb? Whats wrong with "perform an autopsy" Jschnur ( talk) 03:42, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I added the dispute tag because the lead is making remarkable statements as though they were fact, without a shred of evidence/sourcing. Who says an alien autopsy "is" a medical examination and dissection "of the dead body" of an "extraterrestrial"? We don't even say this is claimed by someone, or even who the claimants are. At present Wikipedia itself is baldly stating that "An alien autopsy is a medical examination and dissection of the dead body of an extraterrestrial being ". Some serious sourcing is needed or it needs to be deleted. Moriori ( talk) 04:29, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
I remember watching this as a child during the 90s. When and where was the first broadcast of this video? I think I saw it on Channel 4 - it was quite heavily advertised - did the UK show it before Fox? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.194.151.215 ( talk) 03:56, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
No. It was shown the day before in Italy, then it was braodcasted around the world on the same day. Fox then replayed the show 3 more times, adding more material to it's running time. They added the "Tent Footage" by the end of it run. Later, the Tent Footage was a proven to be a hoax but the Autopsy and the Debris footage was not a proven hoax until much later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enzoab ( talk • contribs) 13:10, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
is this film in the public domain or not? some sources say its public domain, but on other websites it states that its copyrighted ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.200.227.73 ( talk) 04:36, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
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What is the connection with Spiro Melaris who says he shot the film and reveals that it is a hoax and how he did it in a new West End show?
I know this is Metro magazine which is not always the most reliable of sources, but there is also a West End show of this name.
West end show https://www.seetickets.com/tour/alien-autopsy-the-greatest-hoax-of-all-time Robert Walker ( talk) 13:26, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
94.241.194.216, it seems like some sort of Russian viral marketing. Possibly a bot, the IP is Russian as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yannkemper ( talk • contribs) 19:07, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As per the United States Copyright Office Alien autopsy copyright is given to Spiro Melaris and not Ray Santilli
United States Government Source https://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?SAB1=Spyros+Melaris&BOOL1=all+of+these&FLD1=Keyword+Anywhere+%28GKEY%29+%28GKEY%29&GRP1=OR+with+next+set&SAB2=&BOOL2=as+a+phrase&FLD2=Keyword+Anywhere+%28GKEY%29+%28GKEY%29&PID=43h-IDrGaLuVFItDlDvp0VDhi&SEQ=20191028030319&CNT=25&HIST=1
As this page violate the copyright, it should be deleted.Thank You Truthis1990 ( talk) 07:22, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
A tag has been placed on Alien autopsy requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G12 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page appears to be an unambiguous copyright infringement. This page appears to be a direct copy from https://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?SAB1=Spyros+Melaris&BOOL1=all+of+these&FLD1=Keyword+Anywhere+%28GKEY%29+%28GKEY%29&GRP1=OR+with+next+set&SAB2=&BOOL2=as+a+phrase&FLD2=Keyword+Anywhere+%28GKEY%29+%28GKEY%29&PID=43h-IDrGaLuVFItDlDvp0VDhi&SEQ=20191028030319&CNT=25&HIST=1. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images taken from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition will most likely be deleted. You may use external websites or other printed material as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. This part is crucial: say it in your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. If the external website or image belongs to you, and you want to allow Wikipedia to use the text or image — which means allowing other people to use it for any reason — then you must verify that externally by one of the processes explained at Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials. The same holds if you are not the owner but have their permission. If you are not the owner and do not have permission, see Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission for how you may obtain it. You might want to look at Wikipedia's copyright policy for more details, or ask a question here. If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Truthis1990 ( talk) 11:07, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
Hi Guy! Ray Santilli is not the copyright holder of Alien autopsy ... So the information in this article is wrong https://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=1&ti=1%2C1&SAB1=Spyros%20Melaris&BOOL1=all%20of%20these&FLD1=Keyword%20Anywhere%20(GKEY)%20(GKEY)&GRP1=OR%20with%20next%20set&SAB2=&BOOL2=as%20a%20phrase&FLD2=Keyword%20Anywhere%20(GKEY)%20(GKEY)&CNT=25&PID=pr_gLPSzWh_qY1R2D1KfG_7FUNK&SEQ=20191028014403&SID=1&fbclid=IwAR25YqjEapULhdzAElgRCVNXbWo1FbFq2cDEz3cwlq4h5QXl_LUc9Q_mAd8 Truthis1990 ( talk) 12:35, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
Ray Santilli does not have the copyright to the film but the article text shows as he own it...so this page is developed with wrong information Truthis1990 ( talk) 12:44, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
In Such case... Can we allow wrong information... I am nerd editor only-- So can we allow anyone who tell that they wrote Harry Potter.... is it editors work to provide right information... Truthis1990 ( talk) 13:03, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) – Material Works 17:39, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
– There is no obvious primary topic by pageviews or longterm significance between the two films. One was inspired by the other, but inspiration alone does not force something to be primary. It also goes without saying that this is not about the concept of an alien autopsy, that may be better off redirecting to Roswell incident or something similar. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 23:08, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
This article goes into detail about Ray Santilli, but there is no mention of Spyros Melaris or John Humphreys who actually made the film. Unlike Santilli, Spyros is trying to prove that his own movie is a hoax. He gave two long interviews about it a few years back.
https://astonishinglegends.com/al-podcasts/tag/Spyros+Melaris 61.12.248.187 ( talk) 05:36, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Alien Autopsy (1995 film) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
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![]() | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
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![]() | On 28 August 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Alien autopsy to Alien Autopsy (1995 film). The result of the discussion was moved. |
Sky One have a documentary on this on the 4th of April that looks to finally put this one to bed [1] . Also a mention of the Ant and Dec film [2] might be worthwhile ( Emperor 13:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC))
The debate on whether the autopsied body is a very realistic mannequin, a girl with a genetic disorder (such as progeria or Turner's syndrome), or a real alien is still going on. It is also questionable whether the film material and the equipments and objects in the autopsy room actually date to the time in question. Pathologists have also questioned the techniques being used in the supposed autopsy. - it's an admitted fake hence the Ant & Dec film. Jooler 21:47, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
[ [5]—Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.160.237.138 ( talk) 02:18, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
People, come on! This is a hoax. It never happened. Look, I want to believe, but this film is a hoax. Aliens could be real, but that film is known as a hoax. The creator said so.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.218.13.185 ( talk) 21:35, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
A point of order, folks....
I acknowlede that the name "alien autopsy" is commonly attached to this ridiculous affair, and that "Alien autopsy" might be the correct name for the article. That said, and without wishing to sound pedantic, I think that the terms alien and autopsy are best avoided in the body of the article as far as possible, in the interest of strictly encyclopedic prose. Remember please, that autopsy is defined as the post-mortem examination of a human being, and that some of us human beings are, in fact, aliens, though not actually extraterrestrial. Even if the footage really had turned out to depict the post-mortem examination of an extraterrestrial, it still wouldn't show an alien autopsy. I've used examination (rather than autopsy), extraterrestrial being and dummy. I always figured that the thing was just a bloody meat puppet.... -- TheMadBaron 19:44, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
The intro says this article is about the phenominon of alien autopsy in general...if that's true, there seriously needs to be some coverage of some different topics. -- InShaneee 15:23, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Someone calling themselves Santilli editted this entry [6] and this was reverted but that version does come closer to a NPOV. As far as (the real) Santilli has said it isn't a hoax it is a reconstruction. Personally I think he is trying to have his cake and eat it (as well as spin this whole saga out for a bit longer) but if we are going to reflect both sides of the arguement the best we can say is that a lot of people consider this a hoax but Santilli claims there are tiny parts of the original footage mixed in with a "reconstruction" of it that he created. Unless someone can poke holes in his version of the story that is the best we can say. ( Emperor 21:06, 22 October 2006 (UTC))
This whole thing is lacking in sources and those that are here are of the more hardocre Skeptical variety and there does need to be some balance. There is a Fortean Times article online which gives more details [7] whihc has some interesting reactions from Mantle and the impact on BUFORA and British Ufology (my understanding was BUFORA didn't necessarily believe it but gave it a platform). I think the FT article was accompanied by a piece from Jenny Randles (who ran it at the time) about the feelings in the community at the time and I'll try and dig it out. Anyone got any more references? ( Emperor 19:25, 23 October 2006 (UTC))
I saw a television documentary about an extraterrestrial spacecraft crash in Russia and subsequent amateur post-mortem of extraterrestrials. I don't remember the title though. This event should be covered in this article too.
Sleigh
19:43, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The Biography WikiProject banner ended up on this talk page. I have removed it, as it shouldn't be here: the article this page is attatched to isn't a biography and doesn't discuss a person. — AnnaKucsma ( Talk to me!) 20:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
In the movie "Ghost World," a man approaches Enid and Rebecca to give them a flyer advertising a for a gig in which his band, "Alien Autopsy" will be playing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.31.192 ( talk) 06:52, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
The following addition to the article Alien Autopsy is suggested to make the article more broad in scope, and to add information for those of us interested in the Roswell Incident:
Several researchers have reported that an autopsy was conducted in the Roswell Army Air Base Hospital (now the site of the New Mexico Rehabilitation Center) on an alien recovered from the 1947 Roswell UFO Crash, although as usual, many conflicting claims and counter-claims surround the reports. In one popular story, Nurse Self drew sketches of the alien she had helped autopsy for Glenn Dennis when they met for coffee the next day in the Officer’s Club (now the site of the Eastern New Mexico University-Roswell Student Union Building). A mock-up of the autopsy scene, used in the 1994 Showtime movie, "Roswell," is a popular display in the UFO Museum in Roswell, NM. (Reference: Lynn Michelsohn. "Roswell, Your Travel Guide to the UFO Capital of the World!" Cleanan Press, 2008. ISBN# 978-0-9771614-7-8)
Comments? Professor73Q ( talk) 18:15, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Doesn't sound very encyclopedic to me. For starters it blandly states "...on an alien recovered..." as though it were a fact. Surely its an "alleged" alien and "Several researchers" sound like weasel words to me. Jschnur ( talk) 01:13, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Is "autopsy" a verb? Whats wrong with "perform an autopsy" Jschnur ( talk) 03:42, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
I added the dispute tag because the lead is making remarkable statements as though they were fact, without a shred of evidence/sourcing. Who says an alien autopsy "is" a medical examination and dissection "of the dead body" of an "extraterrestrial"? We don't even say this is claimed by someone, or even who the claimants are. At present Wikipedia itself is baldly stating that "An alien autopsy is a medical examination and dissection of the dead body of an extraterrestrial being ". Some serious sourcing is needed or it needs to be deleted. Moriori ( talk) 04:29, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
I remember watching this as a child during the 90s. When and where was the first broadcast of this video? I think I saw it on Channel 4 - it was quite heavily advertised - did the UK show it before Fox? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.194.151.215 ( talk) 03:56, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
No. It was shown the day before in Italy, then it was braodcasted around the world on the same day. Fox then replayed the show 3 more times, adding more material to it's running time. They added the "Tent Footage" by the end of it run. Later, the Tent Footage was a proven to be a hoax but the Autopsy and the Debris footage was not a proven hoax until much later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enzoab ( talk • contribs) 13:10, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
is this film in the public domain or not? some sources say its public domain, but on other websites it states that its copyrighted ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.200.227.73 ( talk) 04:36, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians, I have just modified one external link on Alien autopsy. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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What is the connection with Spiro Melaris who says he shot the film and reveals that it is a hoax and how he did it in a new West End show?
I know this is Metro magazine which is not always the most reliable of sources, but there is also a West End show of this name.
West end show https://www.seetickets.com/tour/alien-autopsy-the-greatest-hoax-of-all-time Robert Walker ( talk) 13:26, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
94.241.194.216, it seems like some sort of Russian viral marketing. Possibly a bot, the IP is Russian as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yannkemper ( talk • contribs) 19:07, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As per the United States Copyright Office Alien autopsy copyright is given to Spiro Melaris and not Ray Santilli
United States Government Source https://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?SAB1=Spyros+Melaris&BOOL1=all+of+these&FLD1=Keyword+Anywhere+%28GKEY%29+%28GKEY%29&GRP1=OR+with+next+set&SAB2=&BOOL2=as+a+phrase&FLD2=Keyword+Anywhere+%28GKEY%29+%28GKEY%29&PID=43h-IDrGaLuVFItDlDvp0VDhi&SEQ=20191028030319&CNT=25&HIST=1
As this page violate the copyright, it should be deleted.Thank You Truthis1990 ( talk) 07:22, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
A tag has been placed on Alien autopsy requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G12 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page appears to be an unambiguous copyright infringement. This page appears to be a direct copy from https://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?SAB1=Spyros+Melaris&BOOL1=all+of+these&FLD1=Keyword+Anywhere+%28GKEY%29+%28GKEY%29&GRP1=OR+with+next+set&SAB2=&BOOL2=as+a+phrase&FLD2=Keyword+Anywhere+%28GKEY%29+%28GKEY%29&PID=43h-IDrGaLuVFItDlDvp0VDhi&SEQ=20191028030319&CNT=25&HIST=1. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images taken from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition will most likely be deleted. You may use external websites or other printed material as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. This part is crucial: say it in your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. If the external website or image belongs to you, and you want to allow Wikipedia to use the text or image — which means allowing other people to use it for any reason — then you must verify that externally by one of the processes explained at Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials. The same holds if you are not the owner but have their permission. If you are not the owner and do not have permission, see Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission for how you may obtain it. You might want to look at Wikipedia's copyright policy for more details, or ask a question here. If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Truthis1990 ( talk) 11:07, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
Hi Guy! Ray Santilli is not the copyright holder of Alien autopsy ... So the information in this article is wrong https://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=1&ti=1%2C1&SAB1=Spyros%20Melaris&BOOL1=all%20of%20these&FLD1=Keyword%20Anywhere%20(GKEY)%20(GKEY)&GRP1=OR%20with%20next%20set&SAB2=&BOOL2=as%20a%20phrase&FLD2=Keyword%20Anywhere%20(GKEY)%20(GKEY)&CNT=25&PID=pr_gLPSzWh_qY1R2D1KfG_7FUNK&SEQ=20191028014403&SID=1&fbclid=IwAR25YqjEapULhdzAElgRCVNXbWo1FbFq2cDEz3cwlq4h5QXl_LUc9Q_mAd8 Truthis1990 ( talk) 12:35, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
Ray Santilli does not have the copyright to the film but the article text shows as he own it...so this page is developed with wrong information Truthis1990 ( talk) 12:44, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
In Such case... Can we allow wrong information... I am nerd editor only-- So can we allow anyone who tell that they wrote Harry Potter.... is it editors work to provide right information... Truthis1990 ( talk) 13:03, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) – Material Works 17:39, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
– There is no obvious primary topic by pageviews or longterm significance between the two films. One was inspired by the other, but inspiration alone does not force something to be primary. It also goes without saying that this is not about the concept of an alien autopsy, that may be better off redirecting to Roswell incident or something similar. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ ( ᴛ) 23:08, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
This article goes into detail about Ray Santilli, but there is no mention of Spyros Melaris or John Humphreys who actually made the film. Unlike Santilli, Spyros is trying to prove that his own movie is a hoax. He gave two long interviews about it a few years back.
https://astonishinglegends.com/al-podcasts/tag/Spyros+Melaris 61.12.248.187 ( talk) 05:36, 8 September 2023 (UTC)