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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
He is much more known for its Montenegrin name, this was original name of the article, it was moved without discussion.
Tadija (
talk)
09:54, 24 April 2009 (UTC)reply
The article reads "He was more commonly known as Ali-paša Gusinjski or Ali Pash Gucia". If that's the case, shouldn't one of those names be used instead?
Jafeluv (
talk)
09:36, 29 April 2009 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Ali-paša Šabanagić
The only source calls him by Ali Pasha of Gusinje. See source. Actually I propose that we rename to Ali Shabanagaj as per Wikiproject Albania consensus. --Sulmues Let's talk 20:13, 22 April 2010 (UTC)reply
I dont have any will left to show you what obvious is. Just see this. (
E.L.) Also, Wikiproject Albania consensus? Alk for rename on talk page, as that is ONLY logical way, and all of you should stop with vandalism moves, with "logic" explanation like "a move request isn't needed since this is obvious". ! O, please, leave me alone!
Gang! --Tadijaspeaks20:42, 22 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Tadija there are only 2 results on google books regarding Ali-paša Šabanagić, while there are about 60-70 results for Ali Pasha of Gucia which is the common name used for him. This isn't a controversial topic, so please don't react in that manner.--
— ZjarriRrethues —talk21:04, 22 April 2010 (UTC)reply
You are not allowed to remove valid sources. As per his relationship with Montenegro, and Serbia, his name is HIGHLY relevant. Also,
WP:MOSNAME is unrelated to this question. --Tadijaspeaks15:00, 24 April 2010 (UTC)reply
There is no policy allowing you to add names in various languages(other than English) not related to someone's ethnicity just because someone notable enough acted in various ways in a modern country. It's against the policy and it's a deductive fallacy, because then we should add Slavic names in Roman emperors or Celtic tribal leaders who were born in modern Slavic countries.--
— ZjarriRrethues —talk15:11, 24 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Ones again, that what you just said is Unrelated to the question above. He was relevant during his life time to the Serbia and Montenegro. As it is cited in the article "He ruled over an area in eastern
Montenegro", language tag will be reverted. Also, references. --Tadijaspeaks16:20, 24 April 2010 (UTC)reply
That's the policy and your arbitrary self-proclaimed policy is a deductive fallacy. There is no part of the policy saying that because someone ruled over an area the local name of that area should be used.--
— ZjarriRrethues —talk17:03, 24 April 2010 (UTC)reply
That is not local name of the area, Zjarri, that is his real name. His real surname was Šabanagić/Shabanagaj. As you can see in all other articles, real name can and should be added at the article beginnings. Dont worry, he will not be less Albanian with that. --Tadijaspeaks17:15, 24 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Requested move (2010)
The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Oppose -
WP:COMMONNAME refers to English-language use, use in other languages is not counted as you have above. If you go through your links and look for English-language hits you get 3 hits for Ali Pasha of Gucia, 2 for Ali Paša of Gusinje; all the others have zero English-language hits. Given those results, the page is probably at the best title already.
Knepflerle (
talk)
08:39, 23 April 2010 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
How is this even remotely POV? My edits only reinforce the content already written in the article. Also, it is absolutely ridiculous to state that Ali Pasha of Gucia is used more frequently than Ali Pasha of Gusinje. That is POV right there. Also, tell me this, is the title of the
Gusinje article Gusinje or Gucia? --
Kilibarda (
talk)
23:18, 5 July 2010 (UTC)reply
For you Albanians, anything remotely pro-Montenegrin is considered controversial and wrong. Not that I am throwing personal attacks or anything. Fact of the matter is that I truly believe that it might actually be better that the article name be his actual name to avoid conflict but even there we have a problem. Albanians say Shabanagaj, Montenegrins Šabanagić. Even among the local population, he is known as Šabanagić. Just thought I might throw that there. --
Kilibarda (
talk)
00:56, 6 July 2010 (UTC)reply
My edits are anything but controversial and POV. I am sure I can easily find you another source stating other, more absurd and far-fetched details about Ali Pasha. --
Kilibarda (
talk)
00:56, 6 July 2010 (UTC)reply
It seems like the dispute is between
Gusinje and
Gucia. At that time the city was known by the name of Gucia, not Gusinje and for that matter it gained international notability during the
League of Prizren, so it should be named Gucia. But even though that might not work, Ali Pasha of Gucia was notable by himself in the 19th century with that name. Thank you! --Sulmues Let's talk 13:57, 9 July 2010 (UTC)reply
He was not a Bosniak as modern Bosniak propaganda states he was. He was Albanian. --13:48, 18 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Kilibarda (
talk •
contribs)
he was a Bosniak, and nothing you can not change. The Albanian propaganda him tried for his death to make as Albanians as
"Ali Pasha of Gucia (1828–1885) (Albanian: Ali Beg Shabanagaj) was an Albanian military commander and one of the leaders of the League of Prizren. He ruled over an area in eastern Montenegro. He was more commonly known as Ali Pashë Gucia or Али-паша Гусињски / Ali-paša Gusinjski ("Ali Pasha of Gusinje").[1][2] He was the leader of the Albanian troops at the battle of Nokšić."
Theritory that Ali Pasha was in charge for (Plav and Gusinje) in period (1828–1885) belonged to Ottoman empire. Therefore it is wrong to state that area he ruled over was in eastern Montenegro (although that area today belongs to Montenegro). His soldiers were not only Albanians, but also Turks and other muslims (todays Bosniaks) from whole area surrounding Plav and Gusinje. Therefore I propose to change above text to:
"Ali Pasha of Gucia (1828–1885) (Albanian: Ali Beg Shabanagaj) was an Ottoman military commander and one of the leaders of the
League of Prizren. He ruled over an area of
Ottoman empire that nowdays belongs to eastern
Montenegro. He was more commonly known as Ali Pashë Gucia or Али-паша Гусињски / Ali-paša Gusinjski ("Ali Pasha of Gusinje"). He was the leader of the Ottoman troops at the battle of Nokšić."
--
Antidiskriminator (
talk)
23:02, 14 September 2010 (UTC)reply
Nokšić or Nokshiq
Below are Google Search results on English language:
Antid. your google search shows nok [sic], niksic etc., not "Noksic" i.e the sources refer to the battle of Nokshiq and not once is there a reference about a battle of Noksic, however, it is mentioned once as the battle of Novsice (alb. Nokshiq). The toponym you're mentioning isn't even the Slavic counterpart of Nokshiq(Novsice) Btw it was a League of Prizren vs. Montenegro battle.--
— ZjarriRrethues —talk09:46, 1 August 2011 (UTC)reply
Yes you are right about google search. I did not pay enough attention on that. It certainly does show nok [sic], niksic etc., not "Noksic" and I am sorry for my mistake. But I am not sure that you are right about Ottoman troops being Albanian troops. Please don't forget that League of Prizren was created and initially controlled by Ottoman Empire. That means that League of Prizren was part of Ottoman armed forces, not Albanian. When I find some sources which support my position I will present them here.--
Antidiskriminator (
talk)
11:53, 1 August 2011 (UTC)reply
The League of Prizren was not part of the Ottoman army Antid. The battle of Nokshiq was part of a series of battles against the Principality of Montenegro that led to the siege of Ulqin, which ended the revolt after the intervention of both the Great Powers by sea and the Ottoman army.--
— ZjarriRrethues —talk12:44, 1 August 2011 (UTC)reply
This move didn't follow procedures of wikipedia, and is incorrect. It also goes against what was decided earlier on based on a community vote. Besides the fact that I see just 8 vs 14 sources (hardly overwhelming majority to warrant a move), back in the 19th century Google didn't exist, and sources of the 19th century referred to the city with the Albanian name Gucia (not Gusinje). --
Tringellima (
talk)
03:54, 15 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Google searches 19th century sources too. Many 19th century English language sources explicitly use "Ali Pasha of Gusinje", so you actually refuted your own position. The 2010 discussion was about renaming to Ali-paša Gusinjski, not Ali Pasha of Gusinje. The article was renamed 9 months ago and nobody contested it although many editors edited it. You are right that now GBS is not anymore 15:4 but 14:8. Still, the advantage is significant, especially taking in consideration that almost all 8 hits for Ali Pasha of Gucia are Elsie+Kadare. On the other hand 15 hits for Ali Pasha of Gusinje include authors like Bejtullah D. Destani and Noel Malkolm who are certainly not anti-Albanian. --
Antidiskriminator (
talk)
15:33, 15 December 2014 (UTC)reply
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Ali Pasha of Gusinje is part of the WikiProject Albania, an attempt to co-ordinate articles relating to Albania on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
He is much more known for its Montenegrin name, this was original name of the article, it was moved without discussion.
Tadija (
talk)
09:54, 24 April 2009 (UTC)reply
The article reads "He was more commonly known as Ali-paša Gusinjski or Ali Pash Gucia". If that's the case, shouldn't one of those names be used instead?
Jafeluv (
talk)
09:36, 29 April 2009 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Ali-paša Šabanagić
The only source calls him by Ali Pasha of Gusinje. See source. Actually I propose that we rename to Ali Shabanagaj as per Wikiproject Albania consensus. --Sulmues Let's talk 20:13, 22 April 2010 (UTC)reply
I dont have any will left to show you what obvious is. Just see this. (
E.L.) Also, Wikiproject Albania consensus? Alk for rename on talk page, as that is ONLY logical way, and all of you should stop with vandalism moves, with "logic" explanation like "a move request isn't needed since this is obvious". ! O, please, leave me alone!
Gang! --Tadijaspeaks20:42, 22 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Tadija there are only 2 results on google books regarding Ali-paša Šabanagić, while there are about 60-70 results for Ali Pasha of Gucia which is the common name used for him. This isn't a controversial topic, so please don't react in that manner.--
— ZjarriRrethues —talk21:04, 22 April 2010 (UTC)reply
You are not allowed to remove valid sources. As per his relationship with Montenegro, and Serbia, his name is HIGHLY relevant. Also,
WP:MOSNAME is unrelated to this question. --Tadijaspeaks15:00, 24 April 2010 (UTC)reply
There is no policy allowing you to add names in various languages(other than English) not related to someone's ethnicity just because someone notable enough acted in various ways in a modern country. It's against the policy and it's a deductive fallacy, because then we should add Slavic names in Roman emperors or Celtic tribal leaders who were born in modern Slavic countries.--
— ZjarriRrethues —talk15:11, 24 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Ones again, that what you just said is Unrelated to the question above. He was relevant during his life time to the Serbia and Montenegro. As it is cited in the article "He ruled over an area in eastern
Montenegro", language tag will be reverted. Also, references. --Tadijaspeaks16:20, 24 April 2010 (UTC)reply
That's the policy and your arbitrary self-proclaimed policy is a deductive fallacy. There is no part of the policy saying that because someone ruled over an area the local name of that area should be used.--
— ZjarriRrethues —talk17:03, 24 April 2010 (UTC)reply
That is not local name of the area, Zjarri, that is his real name. His real surname was Šabanagić/Shabanagaj. As you can see in all other articles, real name can and should be added at the article beginnings. Dont worry, he will not be less Albanian with that. --Tadijaspeaks17:15, 24 April 2010 (UTC)reply
Requested move (2010)
The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Oppose -
WP:COMMONNAME refers to English-language use, use in other languages is not counted as you have above. If you go through your links and look for English-language hits you get 3 hits for Ali Pasha of Gucia, 2 for Ali Paša of Gusinje; all the others have zero English-language hits. Given those results, the page is probably at the best title already.
Knepflerle (
talk)
08:39, 23 April 2010 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
How is this even remotely POV? My edits only reinforce the content already written in the article. Also, it is absolutely ridiculous to state that Ali Pasha of Gucia is used more frequently than Ali Pasha of Gusinje. That is POV right there. Also, tell me this, is the title of the
Gusinje article Gusinje or Gucia? --
Kilibarda (
talk)
23:18, 5 July 2010 (UTC)reply
For you Albanians, anything remotely pro-Montenegrin is considered controversial and wrong. Not that I am throwing personal attacks or anything. Fact of the matter is that I truly believe that it might actually be better that the article name be his actual name to avoid conflict but even there we have a problem. Albanians say Shabanagaj, Montenegrins Šabanagić. Even among the local population, he is known as Šabanagić. Just thought I might throw that there. --
Kilibarda (
talk)
00:56, 6 July 2010 (UTC)reply
My edits are anything but controversial and POV. I am sure I can easily find you another source stating other, more absurd and far-fetched details about Ali Pasha. --
Kilibarda (
talk)
00:56, 6 July 2010 (UTC)reply
It seems like the dispute is between
Gusinje and
Gucia. At that time the city was known by the name of Gucia, not Gusinje and for that matter it gained international notability during the
League of Prizren, so it should be named Gucia. But even though that might not work, Ali Pasha of Gucia was notable by himself in the 19th century with that name. Thank you! --Sulmues Let's talk 13:57, 9 July 2010 (UTC)reply
He was not a Bosniak as modern Bosniak propaganda states he was. He was Albanian. --13:48, 18 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Kilibarda (
talk •
contribs)
he was a Bosniak, and nothing you can not change. The Albanian propaganda him tried for his death to make as Albanians as
"Ali Pasha of Gucia (1828–1885) (Albanian: Ali Beg Shabanagaj) was an Albanian military commander and one of the leaders of the League of Prizren. He ruled over an area in eastern Montenegro. He was more commonly known as Ali Pashë Gucia or Али-паша Гусињски / Ali-paša Gusinjski ("Ali Pasha of Gusinje").[1][2] He was the leader of the Albanian troops at the battle of Nokšić."
Theritory that Ali Pasha was in charge for (Plav and Gusinje) in period (1828–1885) belonged to Ottoman empire. Therefore it is wrong to state that area he ruled over was in eastern Montenegro (although that area today belongs to Montenegro). His soldiers were not only Albanians, but also Turks and other muslims (todays Bosniaks) from whole area surrounding Plav and Gusinje. Therefore I propose to change above text to:
"Ali Pasha of Gucia (1828–1885) (Albanian: Ali Beg Shabanagaj) was an Ottoman military commander and one of the leaders of the
League of Prizren. He ruled over an area of
Ottoman empire that nowdays belongs to eastern
Montenegro. He was more commonly known as Ali Pashë Gucia or Али-паша Гусињски / Ali-paša Gusinjski ("Ali Pasha of Gusinje"). He was the leader of the Ottoman troops at the battle of Nokšić."
--
Antidiskriminator (
talk)
23:02, 14 September 2010 (UTC)reply
Nokšić or Nokshiq
Below are Google Search results on English language:
Antid. your google search shows nok [sic], niksic etc., not "Noksic" i.e the sources refer to the battle of Nokshiq and not once is there a reference about a battle of Noksic, however, it is mentioned once as the battle of Novsice (alb. Nokshiq). The toponym you're mentioning isn't even the Slavic counterpart of Nokshiq(Novsice) Btw it was a League of Prizren vs. Montenegro battle.--
— ZjarriRrethues —talk09:46, 1 August 2011 (UTC)reply
Yes you are right about google search. I did not pay enough attention on that. It certainly does show nok [sic], niksic etc., not "Noksic" and I am sorry for my mistake. But I am not sure that you are right about Ottoman troops being Albanian troops. Please don't forget that League of Prizren was created and initially controlled by Ottoman Empire. That means that League of Prizren was part of Ottoman armed forces, not Albanian. When I find some sources which support my position I will present them here.--
Antidiskriminator (
talk)
11:53, 1 August 2011 (UTC)reply
The League of Prizren was not part of the Ottoman army Antid. The battle of Nokshiq was part of a series of battles against the Principality of Montenegro that led to the siege of Ulqin, which ended the revolt after the intervention of both the Great Powers by sea and the Ottoman army.--
— ZjarriRrethues —talk12:44, 1 August 2011 (UTC)reply
This move didn't follow procedures of wikipedia, and is incorrect. It also goes against what was decided earlier on based on a community vote. Besides the fact that I see just 8 vs 14 sources (hardly overwhelming majority to warrant a move), back in the 19th century Google didn't exist, and sources of the 19th century referred to the city with the Albanian name Gucia (not Gusinje). --
Tringellima (
talk)
03:54, 15 December 2014 (UTC)reply
Google searches 19th century sources too. Many 19th century English language sources explicitly use "Ali Pasha of Gusinje", so you actually refuted your own position. The 2010 discussion was about renaming to Ali-paša Gusinjski, not Ali Pasha of Gusinje. The article was renamed 9 months ago and nobody contested it although many editors edited it. You are right that now GBS is not anymore 15:4 but 14:8. Still, the advantage is significant, especially taking in consideration that almost all 8 hits for Ali Pasha of Gucia are Elsie+Kadare. On the other hand 15 hits for Ali Pasha of Gusinje include authors like Bejtullah D. Destani and Noel Malkolm who are certainly not anti-Albanian. --
Antidiskriminator (
talk)
15:33, 15 December 2014 (UTC)reply