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Zora, i apologized to you here. However, that issue had nothing to do with this article, but you reverted me without responding to any of my latest answers ( now in Archive 3). So, i aske you: What is the justification for you omitting so many things? -- Striver 02:27, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
It's funny -- for a long time, a Sunni editor named AladdinSE worked on this article and would not allow any Shi'a POV material at all. I had long arguments with him re the necessity of allowing Shi'a material too. Now the article seems to have been watchlisted by a large number of new Shi'a editors who are determined to turn it into a Shi'a-POV article. I keep trying to remove the pious veneration, and the Shi'a editors keep putting it back. Meanwhile, the Sunni editors are staying away -- possibly because they don't like struggles, and possibly because they're heavily involved with edit wars in other articles, with various anti-Muslim editors.
I'm guessing (though I don't know) that the Shi'a POV re Ali is all a number of the new editors know. They're probably being completely honest in adding what I'd regard as extremely doubtful or biased material. A lot of it isn't sourced at all. It is just repeated as "something everyone knows". Folks -- it's not accepted by everyone. Sunni doubt many of the claims for Ali. Academics doubt the claims for Ali.
There are extensive links to Shi'a websites here, so if readers want to find out what Shi'a think about Ali, they can go to those sites. As for this article, it has be NEUTRAL. NPOV. Not Shi'a. Please respect the purpose of this encyclopedia, which is to present all views and let readers make up their own minds. Zora 03:37, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Zora, what "pious veneration" are you talking about? Stop giving vague accusations, if you have a issue with something, then bring it, stop giving random "Shi'a pov Shi'a pov" accusations. WHAT is Shi'a pov, and WHY?
The Sunni editor staying away should give you a hint!. Zora, dont be dense, you are the only one still crying "Shi'a pov, Shi'a pov", not a single editor supports your random accusations. Give specific issues, tell why your view is correct, source it and you will see you will get plenty of support. But you dont. You just go "Shi'a pov" and thats it, nothing more. And then you complain that nobody supports you.
Now, you see, i dont do that. I have a good and relevant point by point list of every item i contest, and here it is:
There is no "argument as to whether or not any contemporary Sunni Muslims accept this"', i have given you a link of a 100% Sunni contemporary biography claiming he was born in the Kaaba [1].
" Most Sunni reject the claim" is uncourced and uncourcable. You have not quoted one single Sunni scholar rejecting it. And you know it. And you also know that you are not supposed to say things that are unsouced. I leave it to the reader to judge you for claiming a thing you know you have no ground for doing.
"as do academic scholars" is the same. You have not quoted a single scholar, Muslims or not, that rejects it. You only have Non-Muslim scholars not mentioning it. That does not summ to "rejecting", it is "skeptical or dissmissive", just as my prefered version says.
however, i do agree that a reference to Birthplace of Ali ibn Abi Talib needs to be included.
I agree that we need a reference to some people beliving it was Ali, even though it is not the Abu Bakr article. However, i object to puting only the Shi'a pov in bracers, either all views are in bracers or none.
"and raided caravans" is Non-Muslim pov. If you want, you can add it to the Non-Muslim view of Ali. Otherwise it will open the door to disputed events in the main article, and we have the x view of Ali article to avoid that. The Muslim view is that some Meccan caravans where raided after the meccans having been warned by a Muslim, and in the context of war, specificaly war for resources, not as a "casual" way of getting their hands on random caravans wealth. That is the view of some Non-Muslim, and belongs to the "view of" article. However, i could settle with stating both versions on the main article, since there is a considerable non-Muslims holding that view. However, I vote for omittig the whole issue in this specific article, since it is not directly relevant to Ali, and include it in the Battle of Badr article, since the caravan raiding is the prelude to the battle. If we are going to include both the Muslim and non-Muslim view here, then we need to do so in all Muslim biograpies, for consistancy, and that does not see optimal in my view. Otherwise, we could do a breakout article Caravan raiding befre Badr to exand on this particular issue, and link all Sahaba biographies to that article. But as i said, i belive the best is to included the non-Muslim view about the caravans in the Battle of Badr article, where it is already covered in great detail.
Non-sense, that is Muslim pov. If you imply that non-Muslim reject that, please give reference.
Sunni sources:
Man, i hade forgot that quote, ill add it.
Entirely unaccaptable to do so without motivation.
Are you sure Madelung says that? What does he base it on?
Not that it matters, if he contest it, and several other non-Muslims scholars agree with him, then we will need to refrase it to include that non-Muslims belive that.
The Muslim view is that it was given to them only to govern as state property, not to own. And you know that. Ill remove your version of that until you have shown that there are more than Madelung holding that view, if he in fact holds it, and it is not your view of his view. I question your interpretation of his view, since there is no Muslim sources what so ever that claims it was given to them to own. If only Madelungs belives that, then it is no sufficient to have it as contested in the main article, we can in that case state it under the Madelung section of the non-Muslim view of Ali. Otherwise, we can start by saying Ali was, God forbid, a idiot, since lammens, and only him, belived so.
I have seen no direct evidence for it being poisoned or not, so i have no stance in this issue. Ill stipulate that your prefered version is correct.
Ill try refrase that so we both get satisfied with it.
You totaly decapitated it witout motivation. unaccaptable.
You refreased the Uthman sentence. I support your version.
You also removed a big section from the Sunni view witout motivation. unaccaptable.
You remvoed sections from it witout motivation. unaccaptable.
Again, you were using that section for argumentation, not just stating the basic position. Zora 07:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
You added this:
That realy is to ambigous to add. What is that supposed to mean? That Muslims try to determine if he was a "great man", but somehow the non-Muslims dont care if he was a "great man" or not? What is a "Great man"?
Are you implying that Muslims are not intrested in "economic, cultural, and ecological issues"? What does that have to do with Ali? "are not interested in judging Ali's character"? That is pure non-sense, of course they get a a psycological judgment on Alis person. Did you think that they will dedicate their time and effort on every single aspect of him without trying to judge his character?
Zora, what are you trying to pull?
That non-Muslims do psycological profiles for all men in History, but not Ali?
If you are trying to say that non-Muslims dont regard Ali's character as a source of emulation, that goes without saying, that is as superficial statment as saying that "non-Muslims dont follow Sharia" in the Sharia article.
What we do need to do, is to add in the Muslim view section that all Muslims belive Alis behavior is a source of emulation, Shi'a in particular.
Zora, disambiguette and motivate that line, then we can add it.
You also removed the UN section of Nahj witout motivation. unaccaptable.
That is all points i have changed.
See? No random accusationns of "<insert opponents belief> pov", a clean and precise reasons of why you are not correct. You should try that. -- Striver 06:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Zora, do not revert without motivation.
I don't want to go into this beyond the simple: Wikipedia doesn't do pov forks. There can be no articles about "Shia views" or "non-Muslim views" about anything. These titles are to be redirected to this article. Sorry, that's simple policy. If you want to branch out sub-articles, pick sub-topics, but give a balanced picture of various views on each one. You can take the material from the forks' history and compile them into something like Criticism of Ali or Criticism of Shia if you like, presenting all sides. dab (ᛏ) 09:54, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Zora and gren グレン, i need specific reasons about why Striver's article isn't as good. gren グレン, you said that you prefer Zora's article. why? i haven't read any of these two articles (Zora's and Striver's), but i can tell you that i prefer Striver's because you didn't point out any of his errors (if there were any). Striver clearly stated Zora's errors and why he thought they were errors. Zora and gren グレン, if you want Zora's article to stay instead of Striver's, you have to give reasons because 1) Readers will be able to know what the errors were and why they were errors, and 2) Striver can fix his errors and know what kind of errors he made so nexct time he writes an article he will know what to avoid. if you just say that you prefer Zora's article, no one will no why but if you give reasons, then everyone will know that it was because of x reason. if i sound confusing, tell me in my talk page. Yahussain 00:43, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
We gave you specific reasons and you refused to listen. We don't have to keep going until we convince YOU (I'm not sure that anything short of WMD could). We just have to convince a majority of neutral observers. Zora 04:36, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
i don't see specific reasons anywhere on this page. please retype them so Striver and i can see them.
Yahussain
05:09, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
That's exactly where I posted MY comments. It is standard wiki-practice to intersperse indented comments -- it saves a lot of space, time, quoting, etc. Zora 08:02, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
lol, now i see it. Zora, please, dont write in the middle of my text, just copy it and do what you want. Ill look at your answer. -- Striver 11:07, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Dear Administrators: It is first unlawful to out the shia view first Sunni islam is 95% ( by antimuslems istimates) while shia are 3% and offshoot shia( non shia in shia view) are 25( Ismaili, etc) Here most the editors are from the offshoot like Striver a nd Botonov, etc. This absurd. If you want to look your self in the mirror and see how beautiful you are then do that, but if you want to know the truth( encyclopedia) then you should not delete my editing which was reasonable ( if you really bothered to read) ( anon or adnanmuf) If you keep reversing my editing I will contact other media resources to devaluate your encyclopedia. As of now, the encyclopedia concerning Islamic topics should be named exotic and occult views of the world, not encyclopedia. for example The name of Ali is derived from God name? this is absurd I put that most names of God could become human names if you just take the Al- from the beginnings for example Halim is a man name Al-Halim is God name Ali is a man name ( by the way it was a name very prevelant in Arabia before Islam used by Infidels!! What about the topic Born in kaaba? Is Ali's all about just these few things you put. Please purge the Encyclopedia fromthese perversions, or I will see to it that your site is devaluated
Hi Zora,
First of all, Merry Christmas!
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali : “most famous collection of Ali's speeches and letters is the Peak of Eloquence (Arabic: Nahj al-Balāgha).”
I did a quick search and find out that “surely, the likeness of this world is that of a snake: it is soft to touch, and deadly poisonous. The ignorant child is distracted by it, and the one with understanding and intellect is cautious of it. So turn away from what fascinates you in it, for how little of it stays with you. “ is quoted from the Peak of Eloquence, letter no. 68. It is a pretty famous saying of Ali and deserves to be included.
Would you please let me know what your concerns are regarding the quotes from Ali? Is it just the sources?
Thanks. P.S. I didn't delete Mazar-i-sharif reference. Somebody else did it. There can be more than one anon :)
Quotes -- Three or four quotes is enough. Short quotes. If it's going to be too long, then it should be in Wikisource, not in the article. Enthusiasts tend to want more more more of their heroes and favorites, whether it's more quotes or more pictures of actresses, whatever. You may think that it will create enthusiasm for your favorite -- instead, it bores readers and makes them think less of your hero. Short and pithy is what's required. Zora 05:21, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree Zora. But I have another complain. You said many spiritual traditions such as Sufism trace their practices back to Ali. Its reason is that he had a very simple life style. While I think this was a very important characteristic of Ali, the article does not even have a hint to that. I think it is not fair. Even it does not mention that Muslims think that way. It is true because at least many spiritual traditions that stress on simplicity of life-style trace their practices back to Ali. Following, I have provided some evidence to support the point that he has a simple life. If not enough I can provide more
1. The seventeenth-century theologian, Henry Stubbe in [An Account of the Rise and Progress of Mohammedanism, 1705, p. 83] writes: “He had a contempt of the world, its glory and pomp, he feared God much, gave many alms, was just in all his actions, humble and affable; of an exceeding quick wit and of an ingenuity that was not common, he was exceedingly learned, not in those sciences that terminate in speculations but those which extend to practice.”
2. Ali’s response to the people of Medina beseeched him to accept the mantle of Calipha: "I swear by the Creator of this Universe that had they not sworn unconditional allegiance to me; had they not manifested profound gratitude for my accepting their rulership; had not the presence of helpers and supporters made it incumbent upon me to defend the faith; and had Allah, the Almighty not taken a promise from the learned to put a check upon the luxurious and vicious lives of Oppressors and tyrants as well as to try to reduce the pangs of poverty and starvation of the oppressed and downtrodden, and had He not made it incumbent upon them to secure back the usurped rights of the weak from the mighty and powerful oppressors, I would even now have left the rulership of this State as I did earlier and would have allowed it to sink into anarchy and chaos. Then you would have seen that in my view the glamour of a vicious life of your world is no better than the sneezing of a goat". (Sermon—7, Peak of Eloquence)
3. "Indeed Allah has made it obligatory that the true and just Imams should lead their lives in a simple way and keep their souls under check so that they go side by side with the poor people, who may not suffer from a feeling of deprivation". (Sermon—204, Peak of Eloquence)
I think you go astray if you trace all this to Ali. All the descriptions of Muhammad's family life emphasize his total disregard for luxurious food, clothing, and surroundings. In Ibn Sa'd, there's a tradition that Muhammad said that the only worldly things in which he took pleasure were women and perfume. I just finished editing the article on Abu Dharr; there's another early Muslim who felt that spending money on luxury was an offense to God. Ali to some extent "stood for" the early, austere understanding of Islam, but he wasn't the only one who felt that Uthman and his relatives had taken a wrong turn.
But that's all irrelevant to the point that I was making re various Sufi orders tracing their teachings to Ali. Some went back to Abu Bakr, some to Ali. Is there a list at Sufism, one to which we could link? If not, there should be. Zora 07:10, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Zora, I was wrong in thinking that all this traces back to Ali. Thanks for correcting me. Unfortunately I just have an idea of Sufism and don't know much. Sorry for taking your time but Do you think it would be good to insert "All the descriptions of Muhammad's family life emphasize his total disregard for luxurious food, clothing, and surroundings. In Ibn Sa'd, there's a tradition that Muhammad said that the only worldly things in which he took pleasure were women and perfume." into the article regarding Muhammad? I couldn't find anything about the Muhammad's family life in that article.
-> I changed my mind, it is not neccessary. Thanks.
Zora, I have argued about Raids at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ali/Raids . Your attention is appreciated.
Zora, The sentence "Ali had a strong claim to the leadership, both as one of Muhammad's closest assistants and as his cousin and son-in-law. " implies that his claim for leadership was because of his closeness to Muhammad. This is against the Shia belief. He was not a FOND OF POWER AND RULERSHIP. But this sentence implies that he was. Moreover, in the other part of the article we read : " Ali at first refused. He is said to have been horrified by the assassination of Uthman, and did not wish to appear to be profiting from the situation. But his supporters persevered, and Ali finally allowed himself to be proclaimed caliph." This suggests that the only reason he didn't want to accept rullership was his fearing of appearing as being profiting by the assassination of Uthman. I think both these two sentences should be revised. My reasons of why Ali was not a fond of power:
1. Ali’s response to the people of Medina beseeched him to accept the mantle of Calipha: "I swear by the Creator of this Universe that had they not sworn unconditional allegiance to me; had they not manifested profound gratitude for my accepting their rulership; had not the presence of helpers and supporters made it incumbent upon me to defend the faith; and had Allah, the Almighty not taken a promise from the learned to put a check upon the luxurious and vicious lives of Oppressors and tyrants as well as to try to reduce the pangs of poverty and starvation of the oppressed and downtrodden, and had He not made it incumbent upon them to secure back the usurped rights of the weak from the mighty and powerful oppressors, I would even now have left the rulership of this State as I did earlier and would have allowed it to sink into anarchy and chaos. Then you would have seen that in my view the glamour of a vicious life of your world is no better than the sneezing of a goat". (Sermon—7, Peak of Eloquence)
2. Ibn Abbas says: "Once when I visited Imam Ali, he was mending his shoes. The Holy Imam asked me, 'What do you think will be the price of this shoe?' I said, 'It has no value at all'. The Holy Imam then said, 'By Allah! To my mind this torn shoe is more valuable than my ruling over the people provided I enforce truthfulness and eradicate the untruth".
3. When Imam Ali after assuming the authority of ruling over the people visited a city, he said, "I have come down to your city in my old dress, with this asset and this horse. If after a few days you find that I depart from your city in different clothes you should conclude that I misappropriated the public property".
ALSO, I have added something to the part "Was Muhammad an imam?".
Please have a look at it.
Zora, I agree that not only Ali but Muhammad also was human and fallible. I only think that they had a connection with God in a PARTICULAR sense (which does not make them divine at all). The reference I added in the part "Was Muhammad an imam?" was only to show that “Imam” is not a mere title applied to 12 people; it has nothing to do with what we are talking here. There, I just wanted to mention that according to shia, being Imam is a position that some people can attain and not a title for a particular group of 12 people. It is all the matter of definition. According to the Shia definition Muhammad was an Imam. It is clearly true due to the way Imam is defined.
Anyway, here I have another argument. Let’s assume Ali was a perfectly human being. Isn’t it possible for a "human being" not to have interests in power and rulership? Isn’t it possible for a "human being" to disregard the worldly things? I think it is POSSIBLE.
Now we have a sentence:
“Ali had a strong claim to the leadership”
We both agree on it.
Your theory for its reason is the following: “both as one of Muhammad's closest assistants and as his cousin and son-in-law.” My theory is this: “He was not interested in the worldly part of leadership. He FELT a responsibility because he FELT Muhammad has set him as his successor. He felt the responsibility to preserve the society from straying from the Islamic values, to enforce truthfulness and to eradicate the untruth“
These are two theories. Either we mention both theories in the article; or we provide evidences for the both sides. The one with more weight is picked to appear in the article. Is that fair? We never know which theory is true but we can provide evidences for each of them. If you agree, could you please provide reliable evidences for the first theory?
Thanks Zora for your comment. The reason that I really do care about it is that I have seen many Christians criticizing Islam because of the political disagreements after death of Muhammad. They say that if Muhammad was really a true prophet, then he was at least able to train his followers to disregard worldly power. As you know, Jesus was not interested in worldly power. They say that Muslims were so much greedy of power that after death of Muhammad, they started fighting for power. They say that the main reason for these disagreements is that the only thing Muslims were looking at was “power”. This is what they say. I just want to put a hint in the article regarding Ali, that at least there were people with the view that: the glamour of a vicious life of the world is no better than the sneezing of a goat. Wasn’t I aware of that criticism of Christians, I wouldn’t stress on changing some of the sentences.
Although the controversy appears mostly resolved, I think the term "strong claim" has a legalistic connotation and should not be used here because there was no rule of succession to Muhammad's position, and in fact, no rule that dictated that there should be any successor at all, under which Ali could have made any "claim."
My revision, I think, more simply states the situation as it stood: many believed that Ali should succeed Muhammad. However, there was, objectively speaking, no rule, or a body of law, under which one could make a claim of him being a legitimate successor. Saltyseaweed 18:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Pepsidranka, the past tense was used merely because the particular topic of discussion was what was happening during the succession struggle--it was meant to say at that moment, many Muslims believed Ali should succeeed. It is not meant to deny that many Shi'a still believe that; hopefully, the last revision will clarify that.
The sentence became a bit verbose to clarify who "he" is, between Muhammad and Ali. I think the last revision will make it clear. Saltyseaweed 19:11, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
It currently reads: "After the death of Muhammad, many Muslims believed that Ali should succeed Muhammad, as Ali was one of Muhammad's closest assistants, his cousin and son-in-law, and a powerful leader on own merit." I still think it seems awkward for it to be "believed", then "should succeed" and then "was". It goes from past to present to past. Pepsidrinka 19:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
How about "After the death of Muhammad, many Muslims believed that Ali should have succeeded Muhammad, ...". Pepsidrinka 19:20, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's awkward, because we are discussing what the Muslims believed after Muhammad died but before Umar assumed the leadership. Remember, "should" is a past tense of "shall" and I think its usage in past-tense sentences is acceptable, much like how the word "would" is used. If we take your version, that would be from the point of view of the past, but after Umar assumed the leadership.
Any proofreader want to make a judgment? Zora? Or why don't we change "should" to "must" or "would"? But the meaning changes. Saltyseaweed 00:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Shinobu 02:10, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Please do not move the page without discussion. In English, he is almost always referred to simply as "Ali". The patronymic only adds confusion, since it is almost never used in English, and is unnecessary - there is nobody else who is commonly known as simply "Ali". john k 05:32, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I rewrote more extensively. How's that? Zora 03:26, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
This may be completely trivial to most people(!), but at least it hopefully isn't contentious, unless you want to argue which system is best for Arabic transliteration. I don't know if there is a policy on this (though from browsing Islām related pages there doesn't seem to be), but I think, after the Arabic script might be `Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib; as per the Prophet's page, or something to that effect if I am mistaken in my transliteration. Khirad talk 03:44, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
This page is awful. It said that Abu Talib died so Muhammad was forced to live with Abu Talib. It's as if someone purposefully wrote nonsense. KI 15:49, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
The term Rafidi is an arabic islamic political term that is used for specific people. Its first use was after the time of Zayd bin Ali bin AlHussein bin Ali bin Abi Taleb revolution and death. It is true it means refusers. Tose people had conditions on Zayd to fight with him at the time of the war when he did not accept their conditions they deserted him. The first occurence of their name after they met with Imam Jaafar AsSadeq the nephew of Zayd an dthey introduced themselves as the known rafidis. Jaafar cursed them. After that time many authors who hate Shia called them unjustly Rafidis. Many sunnis however like AshShahrastani in his book "al-Milal wa Nihal" "Sects and cults" states the difference between Shia and Rafidis although his definitions are not very welcomed by the shia.Even anti-shia talked about early shia at the time of Ali and shortly after. But now they use the term claiming that nowadays shia are rfidis rather than Shia, which for sure is unjust. To summarize, Rafidis is a derogatory description of Shia and shia never use it to descibe themselves. In addition it has never been used before the word shia to mean religio-political group of Islam. 129.130.124.101 03:41, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Please Zora. See how many sunni books mention Karram-Allah-u Wajhahu and them remove it. [9] YOu have really to take it in good faith. See for example Miftah [10]
those are actual books you can buy. always look for كرم الله وجهه because not all of the seraches necessarily have the whole honorific as such. The Peace Worshipper Talk to TPW129. 06:48, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
But most sunnis do believe that they were Hanif. And كرم الله وجهه is written in many Major Sunni books and you would see them in many countries using it. The Peace Worshipper Talk to TPW129. 16:37, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
What is going on here? Why was
Ali changed to Ali ibn Abu Talib? There is no disambiguation page for Ali, and it's better to use the most simple name. And not only that, why was it changed to Abi and not Abu?
Cuñado
-
Talk
17:56, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
There's a Cory Doctorow novel called Someone comes to town, someone leaves town (or something like that), available as a free ebook, and in it there's an account of a fictional discussion between a gung-ho community wi-fi enthusiast and a guy who works for the telco. The telco guy explains, "This telco is like a battleship. It weighs a lot; it has momentum. We're trying to change it, but it's slow. It's like trying to change the direction the ship is heading by tapping on the prow with your finger." Inertia of the installed base. If something is outrageously horribly WRONG we of course have to change the hundreds of articles necessary, but if it's just a matter of judgment, not universally accepted, then the work necessary to make the change outweighs any benefits from the change.
I wish I had a copy of the Encyclopedia of Islam, 2nd ed. I'd be willing to go with their article headings in case of doubt, if we don't have an installed base problem. Zora 19:49, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Pepsidrinka that a general reference to "Ali" with no context is most likely to refer to this Ali. Even if there was a need for Ali to be a disambiguation page, this title Ali ibn Abi Talib, or the other version Ali ibn Abu Talib, is an inappropriate title - most English speakers do not know the name of Ali's father, so this is a confusing and useless disambiguation. Ali (Caliph) or Ali (Shi'a Imam) or Ali (Caliph and Shi'a Imam) woulld seem to be the appropriate way to disambiguate. But I don't see any reason that Ali should be a disambiguation page. It seems like this page gets moved every few months without any discussion, and I don't see why we should have to wait a while to discuss it to move it back. It should stay at Ali until there's a consensus to move it somewhere else, which there clearly isn't in this case. john k 17:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I've moved it back, on the grounds that "Ali" was a name agreed to by consensus, and that the move was made without any discussion. If we come to a consensus that the page should be moved back to some disambiguated title, we can do that, but until then, it should stay here. john k 17:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Zora, can you please explain why you removed the following from the article. Thanks
Shia sources report the following quote attributed to Ali as a response to the people of Medina who asked him to accept the rulership [1] [2]:
-- Aminz 08:40, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
One, it's too long. We do not usually give extended speeches in WP. Two, it is historically dubious. No cite by an early chronicler, just pointed, in a vague way, to Shi'a websites. I have a strong suspicion that this will turn out to have been attributed to Ali centuries later. We have links to Shi'a websites. If people want to read this sort of material, it's there. I'm OK with re-telling Shi'a legends (or what I regard as legends) but not with extensive quotes of dubious material. Zora 11:12, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Zora please do not delete the Jamal Confrontation and the Siffin Confrontation section in Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib’s article because these two events were big things that happened after Imam Ali AS became a caliph. I did read a neutral website on the two events and then I wrote these two things in my own words. If I copied and pasted then these two sections would have been two to three pages long. So please do not delete it because of two reasons. Firstly, these two events were major events that happened when Imam Ali AS became a caliph, and, secondly, I spent a lot of time writing these two sections in my own words. Even thought I am a Shi’a I have tried my best to write these two sections in a neutral format. Thank You Salman
Events may be important, but they won't necessarily be discussed in great detail in the earliest histories. In Islamic history, the detail is often added later, by people who want to make a good story out of it. WP cannot retail those stories as historical fact. Salman, you aren't in the US to study history, but if you're going to try to write it, you're going to have to play by the rules of the historical profession. How about reading Tabari and Baladhuri, rather than relying on Shi'a websites?
I should also add that discussing a few of the events in Ali's life in excruciating detail and leaving the rest as generalities is bad writing, and it's boring to boot. You are not going to attract anyone to Ali, or to Shi'a Islam, with bad writing. Zora 16:28, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
It has been proven that Ali killed thousands of iranians that stood in his way, well you have to assume good faith, they probably deserved it for not forgetting about their language and culuture and converting to islam. But he didn't seem to mind having more than 150 persian wifes, well then again perhaps they liked him for the man he was. -- Spahbod 19:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Did i forget to mention, punishment for a persian to have an arab women was death. -- Spahbod 22:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
As a Muslim I'm ashamed to see this article is so weak. I scanned the talk page of this article. It's terrible. You always have editorial war and somebody does authoritative edits. But the article is very weak. There isn't reference for most of the article. It is weak and it is defective. Why this article should be so terrible although most of the Muslims accepts Ali's position even Tabari has written a book about Ghadir!!!--
I've worked for 2 weeks on 2 controversial articles: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict and Hezbollah. Please go and look at them. Although there was diversity of opinions but it was useful and editors could comply on the text. But I don't see such a thing here.-- Sa.vakilian 06:28, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
There are few reference in English about Islam. So how can I use original reference (Arabic and Persian) in this article.-- Sa.vakilian 06:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
OK I just re-worked about half the article. I removed the really poor references which were unsourced web pages, and I added "citation needed" tags where I felt references were much lacking. I also added comments to some of the tags which are not displayed. I'll work on it more a little later.
Cuñado
-
Talk
01:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
This site [14] is reliable among Shiites. According to it "This Center whose goal is to spread the Shi`ite culture through the WEB and create a kind of strong relation between the theological class and the public, is being managed under the supervision of the office of His Eminence, Grand Ayatollah Sistani (may Allah protect him)." So we can refered to it.-- Sa.vakilian 07:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I suggest moving this to
‘Ali. I have been trying to format Arabic titles to be the correct transliteration and include the ayin character. It's the way Britanica does it
[15], as well as any other academic sources.
Cuñado
-
Talk
05:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Anons and new editors keep adding Shi'a polemic garbage. Things like this keep sneaking into the article:
I seem to be the only one who cares, and I'm not even a Muslim. If anyone out there can start watching this page, I would appreciate it.
Cuñado
-
Talk
21:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I can help you with removing such sentences.-- Sa.vakilian 11:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
We can use Ali's quotations to complete this article. For example we can use " Sermon of ash-Shiqshiqiyyah" to complete Ali's life after Rasoolallah. [17]. Fortunately this site debates about the trustworthy and validity of sermons. If you agree, I can say each sermon or letter is suitable for which issue.-- Sa.vakilian 12:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Few years ago a collection of Ali's quotations was find in the VAtican library. But I find a reference for it in Persian. [18] So what we do?-- Sa.vakilian 13:29, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Although there are too many similarities between Sunni and Shiite about Ali but I propose adding one Shiite and one Sunni reliable reference in each case.-- Sa.vakilian 07:39, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
AGREE...why isnt that already done??? They should have a bio with facts and then a Shia/Sunni view point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.243.211.138 ( talk) 00:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
This sentence is wrong. "The Kaaba is said to have cracked open so that Fatima bint Asad, Ali's mother, could enter, then closed behind her." Ali's mother like others entered from the door not the wall.-- Sa.vakilian 03:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Precise dates are given in this article for Ali's birth and death according to the Muslim (lunar) calendar. I understand that this "moves" in relation to the Julian solar calendar. Is it possible to give precise dates according to the Julian calendar for Ali?-- Iacobus 00:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I added something about Ghadir Khumm from the reliable site: Al-islam.org-- Sa.vakilian 10:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
There is the whole text of "Ghadir Khutba" on the basis of 42 books of Shiites and Sunni. [19]-- Sa.vakilian 13:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
To acheive agreement I write Hadiths on the basis of Sunni books:
There are too many other references but I think it's enough. However, If you doubt in this text, Please go and read this scholar text English version and Arabic version and also you can read this scholar text about Hadith Saghalain . Arabic version-- Sa.vakilian 03:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
There is reliable scholar text in this case [20] which shows at least some of the Sunni scholars and all of the Shiite scholars believed that this Hadith is reliable.
I remind you we, as wikipedians, aren't in the position to judge about the reliablity of the scholar texts unless we show some sholar texts which prove our claim. And I remind you If we don't use such texts because of minor variaty, then which text can we use? I propose to add all versions which relates to this article, If there are varriaties in the sources.-- Sa.vakilian 06:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
من كنت مولاه فهذا علي مولاه] and edit this part.-- Sa.vakilian 10:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
There are some books in National Library of Iran which are wriiten by Sunnis scholars to prove that the hadith of Ghadir is correct and Mutawatir. All of them emphasize that Muhammad has said "Who ever that I'm his mowla(leader/master) So Ali is his mowla(Leader-master)." These books are published in qom. [21] [22]
" طرق حديث الغدير برواية أبى بكر ابن أبى شيبة و" Pub:Dilile ma [23] --- WID-LC:BP145 / 2الف4غ --- ISBN: 964-397-169-4 ---Language:Arabic --- [24]
--- writer: Shamsaddin zahabi --- Pub: Dilile ma --- WID-LC:BP233/5 ر9ذ / 52 --- ISBN:964-7990-06-5 --- lan:arabic [26]-- Sa.vakilian 14:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
User:Cunado19: Please tell me why did you delete the role of Ali in the "Battle of Uhud" and "Battle of trench" and reverted Ali#Ali in Medina.-- Sa.vakilian 02:57, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Please describe here why you or any other wikipedian remove something from the article.-- Sa.vakilian 01:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
This is based on the al Kamil of Ibn Atheer and he is Sunni.-- Sa.vakilian 04:57, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I have begun a new section, regarding the battles. Muslims, both Shi'a and Sunnis, do not disagree as to the unmatched prowess of Ali, in the battles that he partook in. Most of the sources used are neutral - neither Shia nor Sunni, but Western.
OK, but I don't see a link to the new article in the main one.:-- HusaynIbnAli 9:54, 12 November 2006
Islam is the religion of peace and tranquility and does not like killing, plundering, and bloodshed. But if someone kills another without any reason then Islam has strong punishment to deal with him. Of course, if an enemy attacks the Muslims then by the standards of wits, common sense, and religious law, self defense which as a form of Jihad becomes essential and indispensable.
This is not only baldly false, but shockingly fatuous as well. I recommend removing it, so as not to harm the credibility of the rest of the article. The Sanity Inspector 01:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
It was nineteenth of Ramadan, while Ali was leading the morning prayers and was in the second Sujud of the second Raka'ah that Abdur Rahman ibn Muljim's sword fell and the life of the greatest warrior saint was taken away to his merciful Lord.
There is too much poetry and not enough information in this passage. Remember, non-Muslims come here, too. Let the contributors think like journalists: Who, What, When, Where, and Why The Sanity Inspector 01:18, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I this articile should be changed, it shows only the shia veiwpoint of Ali. Bazel 22:44, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
As this is an article about a person, are there any pictures or paintings of Ali which we can add to this article?-- Sefringle 17:51, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that there isn't any real portrait. There are numerous imaginary ones and I disagree on using fabricated materials in historic articles.-- Sa.vakilian( t- c) 04:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Come on, ya Ahmad, this is ridiculous. If a group of religious Shias complain, we might want to take it down, but as this haven't happened, there's no need for these "pre-emptive" strikes. I vote for putting the painting (on the right here) back in. Ali isn't Muhammad, there isn't a consensus on whether he can be showed or not. Still, if some group of Christians chose to be against the depiction of Jesus, would we remove all images of him from Wikipedia? Vakilian's argument about "fabricated images" can be used about Jesus as well, by the way. Funkynusayri 17:03, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Awright, I put the picture in and made clear that it is only an interpretation, and not an actual photograpghy of Ali. If someone wants to remove it, give a reason. There are old paintings of Muhammad too o the Muhammad page, by the way. Funkynusayri 06:23, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Irrelevant, people don't know how Jesus looked like, yet there are pictures of him all over the place. Furthermore, It was made pretty clear that it is in fact not an actual picture of how Ali looked like in reality, so I don't see the problem. It's odd how there seem to be more people complaining about this one picture of Ali than about the many pictures of Muhammad on his page. Funkynusayri 10:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Brothers, I would like to address the "desendants" of our blessed Prophet section. The Term Sayyid is applyed in Lebanon to many families like Moussawi, Nasrallah, these families are relatives of the Blessed Prophet, not just el-Husseinis, Ahmad Husseini 03:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
In the many rewrites this article seems to have gotten, the chronological list of his life and actions seems to have left out actually mentioning him becoming Caliph. It jumps directly from talking about before he was Caliph to talking about him dismissing provincial governors as Caliph. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.148.180.88 ( talk) 04:49, 22 April 2007 (UTC).
I have added these two sections but dont know how to make them under sunni view rather than a whole seperate section.-- Rami.b 13:52, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
i have also expanded on the "Sunni view of Ali" section.-- Rami.b 03:59, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
There was an orphaned page called " Early religious history of Ali ibn Abi Talib," which was an obvious POV fork that has barely been looked at since it was created in November 2005. I moved it here with a "totally disputed" tag. It's under the "Early life" section of this article. Here it at least has a chance of being sorted out. I have no relationship with this article; I found it in the Uncategorized backlog. Fishal 18:56, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
As I said before, User:MezzoMezzo, do not attempt to revert my edits to this article. A Sunni fanatic shouldn't be allowed to lay his hands on this article, let alone monopolize it and revert edits made from a historical non-Wahhabi point of view. Refrain from futher editing this article or any other Shi'a-related article. Cheers. KlakSonn Talk 04:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
We should have something on the religious commemoration of Ali's birthday. Thanks.-- Pharos 06:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Recently, a number of changes have been made to the Inheritance section without any discussion. While this normally wouldn't be an issue, the
neutrality and
factual accuracy of the section are both under dispute, hence the totally disputed tag. The best way to handle this situation is to discuss the issues so we can all reach a consensus and ultimately resolve both disputes. Edits such as
this one are not only unhelpful but also blatant violations of the the
Wikipedia:Assume good faith behavioral guideline and the official
Wikipedia:No personal attacks and
Wikipedia:Civility policies.
The whole matter really shouldn't be that complicated, it just looks to me like no one has made the effort to discuss the problems with this section now. I would ask that if anyone seeks to make major changes to a totally disputed section again, they
discuss it here first so all interested parties can work on it together and reach
a consensus.
MezzoMezzo
13:53, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Shi'a Muslims believe that Ali and Fatima, as well as the wives of Muhammad had an additional cause for disaffection with Abu Bakr. [3] The new caliph argued that Muhammad's considerable landed property had been held by Muhammad in trust for the community, and was rightfully the property of the state, despite Ali's rejoinder that Muhammad's revelations included accounts of prophetic inheritance (Qur'an 27:16, 21:89). According to Shi'ah Muslims, Abu Bakr gave state pensions to Muhammad's widows, but Muhammad's blood relatives, Ali, Fatima and `Abd Allah ibn `Abbas, did not receive even that much. After Fatima's death Ali again claimed her inheritance, but was denied with the same argument. However, Umar, the caliph who succeeded Abu Bakr, did restore the estates in Medina to al-Abbas and Ali, as representatives of Muhammad's clan, the Banu Hashim. The properties in Khaybar and Fadak were retained as state property (Madelung 1997 p. 62). Shi'a sources regard this as another instance of the persecution of Muhammad's lineage, the Ahl al-Bayt, at the hands of the caliphs they regard as usurpers. [4]
I think some history of saying Ya Ali Madad should be added here. Shias generally use it as a call of help, but in Northern India, even some Hindus use this to seek help just like Jai Bajrangbali. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.227.64.170 ( talk) 09:45, August 20, 2007 (UTC)
I believe there are certain sects that may fall neither under Shia or Sunni category and they consider Ali as an incarnatiion of Allah. Need to get more info on this and add a mention of this in the article. Wikion 11:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
Zora, i apologized to you here. However, that issue had nothing to do with this article, but you reverted me without responding to any of my latest answers ( now in Archive 3). So, i aske you: What is the justification for you omitting so many things? -- Striver 02:27, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
It's funny -- for a long time, a Sunni editor named AladdinSE worked on this article and would not allow any Shi'a POV material at all. I had long arguments with him re the necessity of allowing Shi'a material too. Now the article seems to have been watchlisted by a large number of new Shi'a editors who are determined to turn it into a Shi'a-POV article. I keep trying to remove the pious veneration, and the Shi'a editors keep putting it back. Meanwhile, the Sunni editors are staying away -- possibly because they don't like struggles, and possibly because they're heavily involved with edit wars in other articles, with various anti-Muslim editors.
I'm guessing (though I don't know) that the Shi'a POV re Ali is all a number of the new editors know. They're probably being completely honest in adding what I'd regard as extremely doubtful or biased material. A lot of it isn't sourced at all. It is just repeated as "something everyone knows". Folks -- it's not accepted by everyone. Sunni doubt many of the claims for Ali. Academics doubt the claims for Ali.
There are extensive links to Shi'a websites here, so if readers want to find out what Shi'a think about Ali, they can go to those sites. As for this article, it has be NEUTRAL. NPOV. Not Shi'a. Please respect the purpose of this encyclopedia, which is to present all views and let readers make up their own minds. Zora 03:37, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Zora, what "pious veneration" are you talking about? Stop giving vague accusations, if you have a issue with something, then bring it, stop giving random "Shi'a pov Shi'a pov" accusations. WHAT is Shi'a pov, and WHY?
The Sunni editor staying away should give you a hint!. Zora, dont be dense, you are the only one still crying "Shi'a pov, Shi'a pov", not a single editor supports your random accusations. Give specific issues, tell why your view is correct, source it and you will see you will get plenty of support. But you dont. You just go "Shi'a pov" and thats it, nothing more. And then you complain that nobody supports you.
Now, you see, i dont do that. I have a good and relevant point by point list of every item i contest, and here it is:
There is no "argument as to whether or not any contemporary Sunni Muslims accept this"', i have given you a link of a 100% Sunni contemporary biography claiming he was born in the Kaaba [1].
" Most Sunni reject the claim" is uncourced and uncourcable. You have not quoted one single Sunni scholar rejecting it. And you know it. And you also know that you are not supposed to say things that are unsouced. I leave it to the reader to judge you for claiming a thing you know you have no ground for doing.
"as do academic scholars" is the same. You have not quoted a single scholar, Muslims or not, that rejects it. You only have Non-Muslim scholars not mentioning it. That does not summ to "rejecting", it is "skeptical or dissmissive", just as my prefered version says.
however, i do agree that a reference to Birthplace of Ali ibn Abi Talib needs to be included.
I agree that we need a reference to some people beliving it was Ali, even though it is not the Abu Bakr article. However, i object to puting only the Shi'a pov in bracers, either all views are in bracers or none.
"and raided caravans" is Non-Muslim pov. If you want, you can add it to the Non-Muslim view of Ali. Otherwise it will open the door to disputed events in the main article, and we have the x view of Ali article to avoid that. The Muslim view is that some Meccan caravans where raided after the meccans having been warned by a Muslim, and in the context of war, specificaly war for resources, not as a "casual" way of getting their hands on random caravans wealth. That is the view of some Non-Muslim, and belongs to the "view of" article. However, i could settle with stating both versions on the main article, since there is a considerable non-Muslims holding that view. However, I vote for omittig the whole issue in this specific article, since it is not directly relevant to Ali, and include it in the Battle of Badr article, since the caravan raiding is the prelude to the battle. If we are going to include both the Muslim and non-Muslim view here, then we need to do so in all Muslim biograpies, for consistancy, and that does not see optimal in my view. Otherwise, we could do a breakout article Caravan raiding befre Badr to exand on this particular issue, and link all Sahaba biographies to that article. But as i said, i belive the best is to included the non-Muslim view about the caravans in the Battle of Badr article, where it is already covered in great detail.
Non-sense, that is Muslim pov. If you imply that non-Muslim reject that, please give reference.
Sunni sources:
Man, i hade forgot that quote, ill add it.
Entirely unaccaptable to do so without motivation.
Are you sure Madelung says that? What does he base it on?
Not that it matters, if he contest it, and several other non-Muslims scholars agree with him, then we will need to refrase it to include that non-Muslims belive that.
The Muslim view is that it was given to them only to govern as state property, not to own. And you know that. Ill remove your version of that until you have shown that there are more than Madelung holding that view, if he in fact holds it, and it is not your view of his view. I question your interpretation of his view, since there is no Muslim sources what so ever that claims it was given to them to own. If only Madelungs belives that, then it is no sufficient to have it as contested in the main article, we can in that case state it under the Madelung section of the non-Muslim view of Ali. Otherwise, we can start by saying Ali was, God forbid, a idiot, since lammens, and only him, belived so.
I have seen no direct evidence for it being poisoned or not, so i have no stance in this issue. Ill stipulate that your prefered version is correct.
Ill try refrase that so we both get satisfied with it.
You totaly decapitated it witout motivation. unaccaptable.
You refreased the Uthman sentence. I support your version.
You also removed a big section from the Sunni view witout motivation. unaccaptable.
You remvoed sections from it witout motivation. unaccaptable.
Again, you were using that section for argumentation, not just stating the basic position. Zora 07:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
You added this:
That realy is to ambigous to add. What is that supposed to mean? That Muslims try to determine if he was a "great man", but somehow the non-Muslims dont care if he was a "great man" or not? What is a "Great man"?
Are you implying that Muslims are not intrested in "economic, cultural, and ecological issues"? What does that have to do with Ali? "are not interested in judging Ali's character"? That is pure non-sense, of course they get a a psycological judgment on Alis person. Did you think that they will dedicate their time and effort on every single aspect of him without trying to judge his character?
Zora, what are you trying to pull?
That non-Muslims do psycological profiles for all men in History, but not Ali?
If you are trying to say that non-Muslims dont regard Ali's character as a source of emulation, that goes without saying, that is as superficial statment as saying that "non-Muslims dont follow Sharia" in the Sharia article.
What we do need to do, is to add in the Muslim view section that all Muslims belive Alis behavior is a source of emulation, Shi'a in particular.
Zora, disambiguette and motivate that line, then we can add it.
You also removed the UN section of Nahj witout motivation. unaccaptable.
That is all points i have changed.
See? No random accusationns of "<insert opponents belief> pov", a clean and precise reasons of why you are not correct. You should try that. -- Striver 06:34, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Zora, do not revert without motivation.
I don't want to go into this beyond the simple: Wikipedia doesn't do pov forks. There can be no articles about "Shia views" or "non-Muslim views" about anything. These titles are to be redirected to this article. Sorry, that's simple policy. If you want to branch out sub-articles, pick sub-topics, but give a balanced picture of various views on each one. You can take the material from the forks' history and compile them into something like Criticism of Ali or Criticism of Shia if you like, presenting all sides. dab (ᛏ) 09:54, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Zora and gren グレン, i need specific reasons about why Striver's article isn't as good. gren グレン, you said that you prefer Zora's article. why? i haven't read any of these two articles (Zora's and Striver's), but i can tell you that i prefer Striver's because you didn't point out any of his errors (if there were any). Striver clearly stated Zora's errors and why he thought they were errors. Zora and gren グレン, if you want Zora's article to stay instead of Striver's, you have to give reasons because 1) Readers will be able to know what the errors were and why they were errors, and 2) Striver can fix his errors and know what kind of errors he made so nexct time he writes an article he will know what to avoid. if you just say that you prefer Zora's article, no one will no why but if you give reasons, then everyone will know that it was because of x reason. if i sound confusing, tell me in my talk page. Yahussain 00:43, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
We gave you specific reasons and you refused to listen. We don't have to keep going until we convince YOU (I'm not sure that anything short of WMD could). We just have to convince a majority of neutral observers. Zora 04:36, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
i don't see specific reasons anywhere on this page. please retype them so Striver and i can see them.
Yahussain
05:09, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
That's exactly where I posted MY comments. It is standard wiki-practice to intersperse indented comments -- it saves a lot of space, time, quoting, etc. Zora 08:02, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
lol, now i see it. Zora, please, dont write in the middle of my text, just copy it and do what you want. Ill look at your answer. -- Striver 11:07, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Dear Administrators: It is first unlawful to out the shia view first Sunni islam is 95% ( by antimuslems istimates) while shia are 3% and offshoot shia( non shia in shia view) are 25( Ismaili, etc) Here most the editors are from the offshoot like Striver a nd Botonov, etc. This absurd. If you want to look your self in the mirror and see how beautiful you are then do that, but if you want to know the truth( encyclopedia) then you should not delete my editing which was reasonable ( if you really bothered to read) ( anon or adnanmuf) If you keep reversing my editing I will contact other media resources to devaluate your encyclopedia. As of now, the encyclopedia concerning Islamic topics should be named exotic and occult views of the world, not encyclopedia. for example The name of Ali is derived from God name? this is absurd I put that most names of God could become human names if you just take the Al- from the beginnings for example Halim is a man name Al-Halim is God name Ali is a man name ( by the way it was a name very prevelant in Arabia before Islam used by Infidels!! What about the topic Born in kaaba? Is Ali's all about just these few things you put. Please purge the Encyclopedia fromthese perversions, or I will see to it that your site is devaluated
Hi Zora,
First of all, Merry Christmas!
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali : “most famous collection of Ali's speeches and letters is the Peak of Eloquence (Arabic: Nahj al-Balāgha).”
I did a quick search and find out that “surely, the likeness of this world is that of a snake: it is soft to touch, and deadly poisonous. The ignorant child is distracted by it, and the one with understanding and intellect is cautious of it. So turn away from what fascinates you in it, for how little of it stays with you. “ is quoted from the Peak of Eloquence, letter no. 68. It is a pretty famous saying of Ali and deserves to be included.
Would you please let me know what your concerns are regarding the quotes from Ali? Is it just the sources?
Thanks. P.S. I didn't delete Mazar-i-sharif reference. Somebody else did it. There can be more than one anon :)
Quotes -- Three or four quotes is enough. Short quotes. If it's going to be too long, then it should be in Wikisource, not in the article. Enthusiasts tend to want more more more of their heroes and favorites, whether it's more quotes or more pictures of actresses, whatever. You may think that it will create enthusiasm for your favorite -- instead, it bores readers and makes them think less of your hero. Short and pithy is what's required. Zora 05:21, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree Zora. But I have another complain. You said many spiritual traditions such as Sufism trace their practices back to Ali. Its reason is that he had a very simple life style. While I think this was a very important characteristic of Ali, the article does not even have a hint to that. I think it is not fair. Even it does not mention that Muslims think that way. It is true because at least many spiritual traditions that stress on simplicity of life-style trace their practices back to Ali. Following, I have provided some evidence to support the point that he has a simple life. If not enough I can provide more
1. The seventeenth-century theologian, Henry Stubbe in [An Account of the Rise and Progress of Mohammedanism, 1705, p. 83] writes: “He had a contempt of the world, its glory and pomp, he feared God much, gave many alms, was just in all his actions, humble and affable; of an exceeding quick wit and of an ingenuity that was not common, he was exceedingly learned, not in those sciences that terminate in speculations but those which extend to practice.”
2. Ali’s response to the people of Medina beseeched him to accept the mantle of Calipha: "I swear by the Creator of this Universe that had they not sworn unconditional allegiance to me; had they not manifested profound gratitude for my accepting their rulership; had not the presence of helpers and supporters made it incumbent upon me to defend the faith; and had Allah, the Almighty not taken a promise from the learned to put a check upon the luxurious and vicious lives of Oppressors and tyrants as well as to try to reduce the pangs of poverty and starvation of the oppressed and downtrodden, and had He not made it incumbent upon them to secure back the usurped rights of the weak from the mighty and powerful oppressors, I would even now have left the rulership of this State as I did earlier and would have allowed it to sink into anarchy and chaos. Then you would have seen that in my view the glamour of a vicious life of your world is no better than the sneezing of a goat". (Sermon—7, Peak of Eloquence)
3. "Indeed Allah has made it obligatory that the true and just Imams should lead their lives in a simple way and keep their souls under check so that they go side by side with the poor people, who may not suffer from a feeling of deprivation". (Sermon—204, Peak of Eloquence)
I think you go astray if you trace all this to Ali. All the descriptions of Muhammad's family life emphasize his total disregard for luxurious food, clothing, and surroundings. In Ibn Sa'd, there's a tradition that Muhammad said that the only worldly things in which he took pleasure were women and perfume. I just finished editing the article on Abu Dharr; there's another early Muslim who felt that spending money on luxury was an offense to God. Ali to some extent "stood for" the early, austere understanding of Islam, but he wasn't the only one who felt that Uthman and his relatives had taken a wrong turn.
But that's all irrelevant to the point that I was making re various Sufi orders tracing their teachings to Ali. Some went back to Abu Bakr, some to Ali. Is there a list at Sufism, one to which we could link? If not, there should be. Zora 07:10, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Zora, I was wrong in thinking that all this traces back to Ali. Thanks for correcting me. Unfortunately I just have an idea of Sufism and don't know much. Sorry for taking your time but Do you think it would be good to insert "All the descriptions of Muhammad's family life emphasize his total disregard for luxurious food, clothing, and surroundings. In Ibn Sa'd, there's a tradition that Muhammad said that the only worldly things in which he took pleasure were women and perfume." into the article regarding Muhammad? I couldn't find anything about the Muhammad's family life in that article.
-> I changed my mind, it is not neccessary. Thanks.
Zora, I have argued about Raids at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ali/Raids . Your attention is appreciated.
Zora, The sentence "Ali had a strong claim to the leadership, both as one of Muhammad's closest assistants and as his cousin and son-in-law. " implies that his claim for leadership was because of his closeness to Muhammad. This is against the Shia belief. He was not a FOND OF POWER AND RULERSHIP. But this sentence implies that he was. Moreover, in the other part of the article we read : " Ali at first refused. He is said to have been horrified by the assassination of Uthman, and did not wish to appear to be profiting from the situation. But his supporters persevered, and Ali finally allowed himself to be proclaimed caliph." This suggests that the only reason he didn't want to accept rullership was his fearing of appearing as being profiting by the assassination of Uthman. I think both these two sentences should be revised. My reasons of why Ali was not a fond of power:
1. Ali’s response to the people of Medina beseeched him to accept the mantle of Calipha: "I swear by the Creator of this Universe that had they not sworn unconditional allegiance to me; had they not manifested profound gratitude for my accepting their rulership; had not the presence of helpers and supporters made it incumbent upon me to defend the faith; and had Allah, the Almighty not taken a promise from the learned to put a check upon the luxurious and vicious lives of Oppressors and tyrants as well as to try to reduce the pangs of poverty and starvation of the oppressed and downtrodden, and had He not made it incumbent upon them to secure back the usurped rights of the weak from the mighty and powerful oppressors, I would even now have left the rulership of this State as I did earlier and would have allowed it to sink into anarchy and chaos. Then you would have seen that in my view the glamour of a vicious life of your world is no better than the sneezing of a goat". (Sermon—7, Peak of Eloquence)
2. Ibn Abbas says: "Once when I visited Imam Ali, he was mending his shoes. The Holy Imam asked me, 'What do you think will be the price of this shoe?' I said, 'It has no value at all'. The Holy Imam then said, 'By Allah! To my mind this torn shoe is more valuable than my ruling over the people provided I enforce truthfulness and eradicate the untruth".
3. When Imam Ali after assuming the authority of ruling over the people visited a city, he said, "I have come down to your city in my old dress, with this asset and this horse. If after a few days you find that I depart from your city in different clothes you should conclude that I misappropriated the public property".
ALSO, I have added something to the part "Was Muhammad an imam?".
Please have a look at it.
Zora, I agree that not only Ali but Muhammad also was human and fallible. I only think that they had a connection with God in a PARTICULAR sense (which does not make them divine at all). The reference I added in the part "Was Muhammad an imam?" was only to show that “Imam” is not a mere title applied to 12 people; it has nothing to do with what we are talking here. There, I just wanted to mention that according to shia, being Imam is a position that some people can attain and not a title for a particular group of 12 people. It is all the matter of definition. According to the Shia definition Muhammad was an Imam. It is clearly true due to the way Imam is defined.
Anyway, here I have another argument. Let’s assume Ali was a perfectly human being. Isn’t it possible for a "human being" not to have interests in power and rulership? Isn’t it possible for a "human being" to disregard the worldly things? I think it is POSSIBLE.
Now we have a sentence:
“Ali had a strong claim to the leadership”
We both agree on it.
Your theory for its reason is the following: “both as one of Muhammad's closest assistants and as his cousin and son-in-law.” My theory is this: “He was not interested in the worldly part of leadership. He FELT a responsibility because he FELT Muhammad has set him as his successor. He felt the responsibility to preserve the society from straying from the Islamic values, to enforce truthfulness and to eradicate the untruth“
These are two theories. Either we mention both theories in the article; or we provide evidences for the both sides. The one with more weight is picked to appear in the article. Is that fair? We never know which theory is true but we can provide evidences for each of them. If you agree, could you please provide reliable evidences for the first theory?
Thanks Zora for your comment. The reason that I really do care about it is that I have seen many Christians criticizing Islam because of the political disagreements after death of Muhammad. They say that if Muhammad was really a true prophet, then he was at least able to train his followers to disregard worldly power. As you know, Jesus was not interested in worldly power. They say that Muslims were so much greedy of power that after death of Muhammad, they started fighting for power. They say that the main reason for these disagreements is that the only thing Muslims were looking at was “power”. This is what they say. I just want to put a hint in the article regarding Ali, that at least there were people with the view that: the glamour of a vicious life of the world is no better than the sneezing of a goat. Wasn’t I aware of that criticism of Christians, I wouldn’t stress on changing some of the sentences.
Although the controversy appears mostly resolved, I think the term "strong claim" has a legalistic connotation and should not be used here because there was no rule of succession to Muhammad's position, and in fact, no rule that dictated that there should be any successor at all, under which Ali could have made any "claim."
My revision, I think, more simply states the situation as it stood: many believed that Ali should succeed Muhammad. However, there was, objectively speaking, no rule, or a body of law, under which one could make a claim of him being a legitimate successor. Saltyseaweed 18:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Pepsidranka, the past tense was used merely because the particular topic of discussion was what was happening during the succession struggle--it was meant to say at that moment, many Muslims believed Ali should succeeed. It is not meant to deny that many Shi'a still believe that; hopefully, the last revision will clarify that.
The sentence became a bit verbose to clarify who "he" is, between Muhammad and Ali. I think the last revision will make it clear. Saltyseaweed 19:11, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
It currently reads: "After the death of Muhammad, many Muslims believed that Ali should succeed Muhammad, as Ali was one of Muhammad's closest assistants, his cousin and son-in-law, and a powerful leader on own merit." I still think it seems awkward for it to be "believed", then "should succeed" and then "was". It goes from past to present to past. Pepsidrinka 19:19, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
How about "After the death of Muhammad, many Muslims believed that Ali should have succeeded Muhammad, ...". Pepsidrinka 19:20, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it's awkward, because we are discussing what the Muslims believed after Muhammad died but before Umar assumed the leadership. Remember, "should" is a past tense of "shall" and I think its usage in past-tense sentences is acceptable, much like how the word "would" is used. If we take your version, that would be from the point of view of the past, but after Umar assumed the leadership.
Any proofreader want to make a judgment? Zora? Or why don't we change "should" to "must" or "would"? But the meaning changes. Saltyseaweed 00:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Shinobu 02:10, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Please do not move the page without discussion. In English, he is almost always referred to simply as "Ali". The patronymic only adds confusion, since it is almost never used in English, and is unnecessary - there is nobody else who is commonly known as simply "Ali". john k 05:32, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I rewrote more extensively. How's that? Zora 03:26, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
This may be completely trivial to most people(!), but at least it hopefully isn't contentious, unless you want to argue which system is best for Arabic transliteration. I don't know if there is a policy on this (though from browsing Islām related pages there doesn't seem to be), but I think, after the Arabic script might be `Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib; as per the Prophet's page, or something to that effect if I am mistaken in my transliteration. Khirad talk 03:44, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
This page is awful. It said that Abu Talib died so Muhammad was forced to live with Abu Talib. It's as if someone purposefully wrote nonsense. KI 15:49, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
The term Rafidi is an arabic islamic political term that is used for specific people. Its first use was after the time of Zayd bin Ali bin AlHussein bin Ali bin Abi Taleb revolution and death. It is true it means refusers. Tose people had conditions on Zayd to fight with him at the time of the war when he did not accept their conditions they deserted him. The first occurence of their name after they met with Imam Jaafar AsSadeq the nephew of Zayd an dthey introduced themselves as the known rafidis. Jaafar cursed them. After that time many authors who hate Shia called them unjustly Rafidis. Many sunnis however like AshShahrastani in his book "al-Milal wa Nihal" "Sects and cults" states the difference between Shia and Rafidis although his definitions are not very welcomed by the shia.Even anti-shia talked about early shia at the time of Ali and shortly after. But now they use the term claiming that nowadays shia are rfidis rather than Shia, which for sure is unjust. To summarize, Rafidis is a derogatory description of Shia and shia never use it to descibe themselves. In addition it has never been used before the word shia to mean religio-political group of Islam. 129.130.124.101 03:41, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Please Zora. See how many sunni books mention Karram-Allah-u Wajhahu and them remove it. [9] YOu have really to take it in good faith. See for example Miftah [10]
those are actual books you can buy. always look for كرم الله وجهه because not all of the seraches necessarily have the whole honorific as such. The Peace Worshipper Talk to TPW129. 06:48, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
But most sunnis do believe that they were Hanif. And كرم الله وجهه is written in many Major Sunni books and you would see them in many countries using it. The Peace Worshipper Talk to TPW129. 16:37, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
What is going on here? Why was
Ali changed to Ali ibn Abu Talib? There is no disambiguation page for Ali, and it's better to use the most simple name. And not only that, why was it changed to Abi and not Abu?
Cuñado
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Talk
17:56, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
There's a Cory Doctorow novel called Someone comes to town, someone leaves town (or something like that), available as a free ebook, and in it there's an account of a fictional discussion between a gung-ho community wi-fi enthusiast and a guy who works for the telco. The telco guy explains, "This telco is like a battleship. It weighs a lot; it has momentum. We're trying to change it, but it's slow. It's like trying to change the direction the ship is heading by tapping on the prow with your finger." Inertia of the installed base. If something is outrageously horribly WRONG we of course have to change the hundreds of articles necessary, but if it's just a matter of judgment, not universally accepted, then the work necessary to make the change outweighs any benefits from the change.
I wish I had a copy of the Encyclopedia of Islam, 2nd ed. I'd be willing to go with their article headings in case of doubt, if we don't have an installed base problem. Zora 19:49, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Pepsidrinka that a general reference to "Ali" with no context is most likely to refer to this Ali. Even if there was a need for Ali to be a disambiguation page, this title Ali ibn Abi Talib, or the other version Ali ibn Abu Talib, is an inappropriate title - most English speakers do not know the name of Ali's father, so this is a confusing and useless disambiguation. Ali (Caliph) or Ali (Shi'a Imam) or Ali (Caliph and Shi'a Imam) woulld seem to be the appropriate way to disambiguate. But I don't see any reason that Ali should be a disambiguation page. It seems like this page gets moved every few months without any discussion, and I don't see why we should have to wait a while to discuss it to move it back. It should stay at Ali until there's a consensus to move it somewhere else, which there clearly isn't in this case. john k 17:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I've moved it back, on the grounds that "Ali" was a name agreed to by consensus, and that the move was made without any discussion. If we come to a consensus that the page should be moved back to some disambiguated title, we can do that, but until then, it should stay here. john k 17:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Zora, can you please explain why you removed the following from the article. Thanks
Shia sources report the following quote attributed to Ali as a response to the people of Medina who asked him to accept the rulership [1] [2]:
-- Aminz 08:40, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
One, it's too long. We do not usually give extended speeches in WP. Two, it is historically dubious. No cite by an early chronicler, just pointed, in a vague way, to Shi'a websites. I have a strong suspicion that this will turn out to have been attributed to Ali centuries later. We have links to Shi'a websites. If people want to read this sort of material, it's there. I'm OK with re-telling Shi'a legends (or what I regard as legends) but not with extensive quotes of dubious material. Zora 11:12, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Zora please do not delete the Jamal Confrontation and the Siffin Confrontation section in Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib’s article because these two events were big things that happened after Imam Ali AS became a caliph. I did read a neutral website on the two events and then I wrote these two things in my own words. If I copied and pasted then these two sections would have been two to three pages long. So please do not delete it because of two reasons. Firstly, these two events were major events that happened when Imam Ali AS became a caliph, and, secondly, I spent a lot of time writing these two sections in my own words. Even thought I am a Shi’a I have tried my best to write these two sections in a neutral format. Thank You Salman
Events may be important, but they won't necessarily be discussed in great detail in the earliest histories. In Islamic history, the detail is often added later, by people who want to make a good story out of it. WP cannot retail those stories as historical fact. Salman, you aren't in the US to study history, but if you're going to try to write it, you're going to have to play by the rules of the historical profession. How about reading Tabari and Baladhuri, rather than relying on Shi'a websites?
I should also add that discussing a few of the events in Ali's life in excruciating detail and leaving the rest as generalities is bad writing, and it's boring to boot. You are not going to attract anyone to Ali, or to Shi'a Islam, with bad writing. Zora 16:28, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
It has been proven that Ali killed thousands of iranians that stood in his way, well you have to assume good faith, they probably deserved it for not forgetting about their language and culuture and converting to islam. But he didn't seem to mind having more than 150 persian wifes, well then again perhaps they liked him for the man he was. -- Spahbod 19:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Did i forget to mention, punishment for a persian to have an arab women was death. -- Spahbod 22:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
As a Muslim I'm ashamed to see this article is so weak. I scanned the talk page of this article. It's terrible. You always have editorial war and somebody does authoritative edits. But the article is very weak. There isn't reference for most of the article. It is weak and it is defective. Why this article should be so terrible although most of the Muslims accepts Ali's position even Tabari has written a book about Ghadir!!!--
I've worked for 2 weeks on 2 controversial articles: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict and Hezbollah. Please go and look at them. Although there was diversity of opinions but it was useful and editors could comply on the text. But I don't see such a thing here.-- Sa.vakilian 06:28, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
There are few reference in English about Islam. So how can I use original reference (Arabic and Persian) in this article.-- Sa.vakilian 06:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
OK I just re-worked about half the article. I removed the really poor references which were unsourced web pages, and I added "citation needed" tags where I felt references were much lacking. I also added comments to some of the tags which are not displayed. I'll work on it more a little later.
Cuñado
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Talk
01:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
This site [14] is reliable among Shiites. According to it "This Center whose goal is to spread the Shi`ite culture through the WEB and create a kind of strong relation between the theological class and the public, is being managed under the supervision of the office of His Eminence, Grand Ayatollah Sistani (may Allah protect him)." So we can refered to it.-- Sa.vakilian 07:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I suggest moving this to
‘Ali. I have been trying to format Arabic titles to be the correct transliteration and include the ayin character. It's the way Britanica does it
[15], as well as any other academic sources.
Cuñado
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Talk
05:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Anons and new editors keep adding Shi'a polemic garbage. Things like this keep sneaking into the article:
I seem to be the only one who cares, and I'm not even a Muslim. If anyone out there can start watching this page, I would appreciate it.
Cuñado
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Talk
21:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I can help you with removing such sentences.-- Sa.vakilian 11:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
We can use Ali's quotations to complete this article. For example we can use " Sermon of ash-Shiqshiqiyyah" to complete Ali's life after Rasoolallah. [17]. Fortunately this site debates about the trustworthy and validity of sermons. If you agree, I can say each sermon or letter is suitable for which issue.-- Sa.vakilian 12:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Few years ago a collection of Ali's quotations was find in the VAtican library. But I find a reference for it in Persian. [18] So what we do?-- Sa.vakilian 13:29, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Although there are too many similarities between Sunni and Shiite about Ali but I propose adding one Shiite and one Sunni reliable reference in each case.-- Sa.vakilian 07:39, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
AGREE...why isnt that already done??? They should have a bio with facts and then a Shia/Sunni view point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.243.211.138 ( talk) 00:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
This sentence is wrong. "The Kaaba is said to have cracked open so that Fatima bint Asad, Ali's mother, could enter, then closed behind her." Ali's mother like others entered from the door not the wall.-- Sa.vakilian 03:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Precise dates are given in this article for Ali's birth and death according to the Muslim (lunar) calendar. I understand that this "moves" in relation to the Julian solar calendar. Is it possible to give precise dates according to the Julian calendar for Ali?-- Iacobus 00:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I added something about Ghadir Khumm from the reliable site: Al-islam.org-- Sa.vakilian 10:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
There is the whole text of "Ghadir Khutba" on the basis of 42 books of Shiites and Sunni. [19]-- Sa.vakilian 13:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
To acheive agreement I write Hadiths on the basis of Sunni books:
There are too many other references but I think it's enough. However, If you doubt in this text, Please go and read this scholar text English version and Arabic version and also you can read this scholar text about Hadith Saghalain . Arabic version-- Sa.vakilian 03:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
There is reliable scholar text in this case [20] which shows at least some of the Sunni scholars and all of the Shiite scholars believed that this Hadith is reliable.
I remind you we, as wikipedians, aren't in the position to judge about the reliablity of the scholar texts unless we show some sholar texts which prove our claim. And I remind you If we don't use such texts because of minor variaty, then which text can we use? I propose to add all versions which relates to this article, If there are varriaties in the sources.-- Sa.vakilian 06:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
من كنت مولاه فهذا علي مولاه] and edit this part.-- Sa.vakilian 10:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
There are some books in National Library of Iran which are wriiten by Sunnis scholars to prove that the hadith of Ghadir is correct and Mutawatir. All of them emphasize that Muhammad has said "Who ever that I'm his mowla(leader/master) So Ali is his mowla(Leader-master)." These books are published in qom. [21] [22]
" طرق حديث الغدير برواية أبى بكر ابن أبى شيبة و" Pub:Dilile ma [23] --- WID-LC:BP145 / 2الف4غ --- ISBN: 964-397-169-4 ---Language:Arabic --- [24]
--- writer: Shamsaddin zahabi --- Pub: Dilile ma --- WID-LC:BP233/5 ر9ذ / 52 --- ISBN:964-7990-06-5 --- lan:arabic [26]-- Sa.vakilian 14:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
User:Cunado19: Please tell me why did you delete the role of Ali in the "Battle of Uhud" and "Battle of trench" and reverted Ali#Ali in Medina.-- Sa.vakilian 02:57, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Please describe here why you or any other wikipedian remove something from the article.-- Sa.vakilian 01:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
This is based on the al Kamil of Ibn Atheer and he is Sunni.-- Sa.vakilian 04:57, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I have begun a new section, regarding the battles. Muslims, both Shi'a and Sunnis, do not disagree as to the unmatched prowess of Ali, in the battles that he partook in. Most of the sources used are neutral - neither Shia nor Sunni, but Western.
OK, but I don't see a link to the new article in the main one.:-- HusaynIbnAli 9:54, 12 November 2006
Islam is the religion of peace and tranquility and does not like killing, plundering, and bloodshed. But if someone kills another without any reason then Islam has strong punishment to deal with him. Of course, if an enemy attacks the Muslims then by the standards of wits, common sense, and religious law, self defense which as a form of Jihad becomes essential and indispensable.
This is not only baldly false, but shockingly fatuous as well. I recommend removing it, so as not to harm the credibility of the rest of the article. The Sanity Inspector 01:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
It was nineteenth of Ramadan, while Ali was leading the morning prayers and was in the second Sujud of the second Raka'ah that Abdur Rahman ibn Muljim's sword fell and the life of the greatest warrior saint was taken away to his merciful Lord.
There is too much poetry and not enough information in this passage. Remember, non-Muslims come here, too. Let the contributors think like journalists: Who, What, When, Where, and Why The Sanity Inspector 01:18, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I this articile should be changed, it shows only the shia veiwpoint of Ali. Bazel 22:44, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
As this is an article about a person, are there any pictures or paintings of Ali which we can add to this article?-- Sefringle 17:51, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that there isn't any real portrait. There are numerous imaginary ones and I disagree on using fabricated materials in historic articles.-- Sa.vakilian( t- c) 04:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Come on, ya Ahmad, this is ridiculous. If a group of religious Shias complain, we might want to take it down, but as this haven't happened, there's no need for these "pre-emptive" strikes. I vote for putting the painting (on the right here) back in. Ali isn't Muhammad, there isn't a consensus on whether he can be showed or not. Still, if some group of Christians chose to be against the depiction of Jesus, would we remove all images of him from Wikipedia? Vakilian's argument about "fabricated images" can be used about Jesus as well, by the way. Funkynusayri 17:03, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Awright, I put the picture in and made clear that it is only an interpretation, and not an actual photograpghy of Ali. If someone wants to remove it, give a reason. There are old paintings of Muhammad too o the Muhammad page, by the way. Funkynusayri 06:23, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Irrelevant, people don't know how Jesus looked like, yet there are pictures of him all over the place. Furthermore, It was made pretty clear that it is in fact not an actual picture of how Ali looked like in reality, so I don't see the problem. It's odd how there seem to be more people complaining about this one picture of Ali than about the many pictures of Muhammad on his page. Funkynusayri 10:21, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Brothers, I would like to address the "desendants" of our blessed Prophet section. The Term Sayyid is applyed in Lebanon to many families like Moussawi, Nasrallah, these families are relatives of the Blessed Prophet, not just el-Husseinis, Ahmad Husseini 03:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
In the many rewrites this article seems to have gotten, the chronological list of his life and actions seems to have left out actually mentioning him becoming Caliph. It jumps directly from talking about before he was Caliph to talking about him dismissing provincial governors as Caliph. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.148.180.88 ( talk) 04:49, 22 April 2007 (UTC).
I have added these two sections but dont know how to make them under sunni view rather than a whole seperate section.-- Rami.b 13:52, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
i have also expanded on the "Sunni view of Ali" section.-- Rami.b 03:59, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
There was an orphaned page called " Early religious history of Ali ibn Abi Talib," which was an obvious POV fork that has barely been looked at since it was created in November 2005. I moved it here with a "totally disputed" tag. It's under the "Early life" section of this article. Here it at least has a chance of being sorted out. I have no relationship with this article; I found it in the Uncategorized backlog. Fishal 18:56, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
As I said before, User:MezzoMezzo, do not attempt to revert my edits to this article. A Sunni fanatic shouldn't be allowed to lay his hands on this article, let alone monopolize it and revert edits made from a historical non-Wahhabi point of view. Refrain from futher editing this article or any other Shi'a-related article. Cheers. KlakSonn Talk 04:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
We should have something on the religious commemoration of Ali's birthday. Thanks.-- Pharos 06:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Recently, a number of changes have been made to the Inheritance section without any discussion. While this normally wouldn't be an issue, the
neutrality and
factual accuracy of the section are both under dispute, hence the totally disputed tag. The best way to handle this situation is to discuss the issues so we can all reach a consensus and ultimately resolve both disputes. Edits such as
this one are not only unhelpful but also blatant violations of the the
Wikipedia:Assume good faith behavioral guideline and the official
Wikipedia:No personal attacks and
Wikipedia:Civility policies.
The whole matter really shouldn't be that complicated, it just looks to me like no one has made the effort to discuss the problems with this section now. I would ask that if anyone seeks to make major changes to a totally disputed section again, they
discuss it here first so all interested parties can work on it together and reach
a consensus.
MezzoMezzo
13:53, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Shi'a Muslims believe that Ali and Fatima, as well as the wives of Muhammad had an additional cause for disaffection with Abu Bakr. [3] The new caliph argued that Muhammad's considerable landed property had been held by Muhammad in trust for the community, and was rightfully the property of the state, despite Ali's rejoinder that Muhammad's revelations included accounts of prophetic inheritance (Qur'an 27:16, 21:89). According to Shi'ah Muslims, Abu Bakr gave state pensions to Muhammad's widows, but Muhammad's blood relatives, Ali, Fatima and `Abd Allah ibn `Abbas, did not receive even that much. After Fatima's death Ali again claimed her inheritance, but was denied with the same argument. However, Umar, the caliph who succeeded Abu Bakr, did restore the estates in Medina to al-Abbas and Ali, as representatives of Muhammad's clan, the Banu Hashim. The properties in Khaybar and Fadak were retained as state property (Madelung 1997 p. 62). Shi'a sources regard this as another instance of the persecution of Muhammad's lineage, the Ahl al-Bayt, at the hands of the caliphs they regard as usurpers. [4]
I think some history of saying Ya Ali Madad should be added here. Shias generally use it as a call of help, but in Northern India, even some Hindus use this to seek help just like Jai Bajrangbali. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.227.64.170 ( talk) 09:45, August 20, 2007 (UTC)
I believe there are certain sects that may fall neither under Shia or Sunni category and they consider Ali as an incarnatiion of Allah. Need to get more info on this and add a mention of this in the article. Wikion 11:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)