The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In some parts, I'll refer to the first review, and won't copy all of that here.
1. Prose: See detailed review below. No copyright violations.
2. MOS:
Remove citations in the lead which are already in the body of the article per Lead section policy, unless there are some very controversial statements in there.
4. Reliable sources: Yes. Responding to your explanation given in the previous nomination, it is advisable to attempt to access Noble's original 2012 thesis, but not required per GA criteria.
5. Original research: None found.
6. Broadness: will check this later per secondary sources. Whether popular culture should be included depends on whether this is sufficiently covered by RS.
7. Focus: As stated in the previous review, the example sections should be integrated in the other sections. The article's narrative is full of examples, so a separate section with examples is certainly redundant. I do think some of the examples are useful, but can they be integrated with the impact or types sections?
I'll check about Target later. It's in Duhigg's 2013 book about habits, but i can't remember it well. Something about being less aggressive about showing their predictions. May not be relevant.
Do you mean the scores from 1920-1970 are shared to judges?
No, I mean that for the 50 years between 1920 and 1970, this score included the nationality of the criminal's father. I've clarified. --
Owlsmcgee (
talk)
20:23, 28 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Challenges
Challenge is an euphemism for problem. Reword per
WP:WTW. It's fuzzy, but part of GA, I'm afraid.
the availability of loans from a bank ... Complex and difficult to read, please rephrase.
Please check the rest of the section as well.
Though perhaps not ideal, I've just removed this section outright, as it didn't make much sense to me upon re-reading it. It seemed to be about why and how biased algorithms get deployed in the first place, but these are handled in other sections and in more coherent ways. --
Owlsmcgee (
talk)
20:43, 28 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Europe
Has the GDPR been implemented yet? I know there have been a number of privacy laws that have been implemented in Holland recently, though I am not sure whether this is based on European law.
I didn't write this section, but it seems odd that we are talking about laws that "weren't used often due to heavy exceptions" prior to the GDPR -- seems this section should focus on what the current regulation says, not whether past policies were effective or widely used. I've removed that piece and I think it simplifies the passage significantly, while keeping its focus on the most relevant information for this article. --
Owlsmcgee (
talk)
20:52, 28 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Please wikilink recital at the first mention.
as such rights may fatigue individuals who are too overburdened to use them effectively. Please clarify.
It also recommended ... Was anything done with these recommendations?
Clarified in text that these were guidance for a strategy. Nothing was done on a regulatory scale, however, I've added a section describing the first US law on algorithms, which was a task force created in New York City. Relevant as the first of its kind. --
Owlsmcgee (
talk)
Third reading
Three more comments:
could "Online Hate Speech" and "surveillance" become subsections in the section "racial discrimination"? Perhaps the header should be edited, e.g. racial and ethnic discrimination.
I felt that the lead does not adequately explain yet why the subject is so alarming and important, and worthy of study. This should be addressed more, per
MOS:INTRO.
I disagree that this is neccesary... the article lead is not intended to convince anyone why it is important. Wikipedia is there to provide information about the topic, not persuade people to find it important. If someone is looking for an explanation of what algorithmic bias is, they can find it in the lead now, I think. If they don't think discrimination and bias is important, it's not our job to convince them. Wikipedia is neutral, above all else. --
Owlsmcgee (
talk)
04:08, 31 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Perhaps my words are not ideal.
MOS:INTRO says The reason for a topic's noteworthiness should be established, or at least introduced, in the lead (but not by using subjective "peacock terms" such as "acclaimed" or "award-winning" or "hit").--Farang Rak Tham(Talk)07:33, 31 July 2018 (UTC)reply
The first article linked is a summary of ethical problems posed by algorithms and an attempt at a taxonomy, which I've already created based on a more widely-cited paper. It also essentially says that algorithmic bias isn't a problem unless it has real-world consequences, which is already addressed in the article. The second outlines some attempts by Google and Microsoft, which I've added to the end of the history section. The third is interesting but isn't actually proposing mitigation, it's instead proposing an alternative form of measuring algorithmic bias; however, it is only a working paper (a proposal for research) and hasn't actually been tested. Once there are results of an actual research study instead of a proposal, I'll be eager to incorporate that into a broader section on mitigation. --
Owlsmcgee (
talk)
04:50, 31 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Great find. I've included it as the first line in the "contemporary critiques and responses" section, to help set the context. Because the article is about the problem of bias in algorithms, I don't think it is essential to delve into all of the algorithms that are unbiased, which seems a bit like listing all the horses that a car is not. But, I think for equal weight and context, this is an important perspective, so I have introduced it very early in the section, though briefly. I think it's fair. --
Owlsmcgee (
talk)
04:49, 31 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Thanks
Farang Rak Tham. I will tackle these soon — I know the GA process should take about a week, but I've just seen these notes now. If it's at all possible to give me until the end of July to tackle this I would appreciate it. --
Owlsmcgee (
talk)
18:48, 15 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Having looked at the lead again, I think your recent edits sufficiently address the noteworthiness of the subject matter. I don't see any reason not to pass the article for GA. Congratulations! I am happy to see you made it through. Perhaps you will think I have been a rather fuzzy reviewer, but I would not want to get the article delisted at a later time by some other editor that comes along and doesn't know how much effort you put into this.
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the
Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In some parts, I'll refer to the first review, and won't copy all of that here.
1. Prose: See detailed review below. No copyright violations.
2. MOS:
Remove citations in the lead which are already in the body of the article per Lead section policy, unless there are some very controversial statements in there.
4. Reliable sources: Yes. Responding to your explanation given in the previous nomination, it is advisable to attempt to access Noble's original 2012 thesis, but not required per GA criteria.
5. Original research: None found.
6. Broadness: will check this later per secondary sources. Whether popular culture should be included depends on whether this is sufficiently covered by RS.
7. Focus: As stated in the previous review, the example sections should be integrated in the other sections. The article's narrative is full of examples, so a separate section with examples is certainly redundant. I do think some of the examples are useful, but can they be integrated with the impact or types sections?
I'll check about Target later. It's in Duhigg's 2013 book about habits, but i can't remember it well. Something about being less aggressive about showing their predictions. May not be relevant.
Do you mean the scores from 1920-1970 are shared to judges?
No, I mean that for the 50 years between 1920 and 1970, this score included the nationality of the criminal's father. I've clarified. --
Owlsmcgee (
talk)
20:23, 28 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Challenges
Challenge is an euphemism for problem. Reword per
WP:WTW. It's fuzzy, but part of GA, I'm afraid.
the availability of loans from a bank ... Complex and difficult to read, please rephrase.
Please check the rest of the section as well.
Though perhaps not ideal, I've just removed this section outright, as it didn't make much sense to me upon re-reading it. It seemed to be about why and how biased algorithms get deployed in the first place, but these are handled in other sections and in more coherent ways. --
Owlsmcgee (
talk)
20:43, 28 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Europe
Has the GDPR been implemented yet? I know there have been a number of privacy laws that have been implemented in Holland recently, though I am not sure whether this is based on European law.
I didn't write this section, but it seems odd that we are talking about laws that "weren't used often due to heavy exceptions" prior to the GDPR -- seems this section should focus on what the current regulation says, not whether past policies were effective or widely used. I've removed that piece and I think it simplifies the passage significantly, while keeping its focus on the most relevant information for this article. --
Owlsmcgee (
talk)
20:52, 28 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Please wikilink recital at the first mention.
as such rights may fatigue individuals who are too overburdened to use them effectively. Please clarify.
It also recommended ... Was anything done with these recommendations?
Clarified in text that these were guidance for a strategy. Nothing was done on a regulatory scale, however, I've added a section describing the first US law on algorithms, which was a task force created in New York City. Relevant as the first of its kind. --
Owlsmcgee (
talk)
Third reading
Three more comments:
could "Online Hate Speech" and "surveillance" become subsections in the section "racial discrimination"? Perhaps the header should be edited, e.g. racial and ethnic discrimination.
I felt that the lead does not adequately explain yet why the subject is so alarming and important, and worthy of study. This should be addressed more, per
MOS:INTRO.
I disagree that this is neccesary... the article lead is not intended to convince anyone why it is important. Wikipedia is there to provide information about the topic, not persuade people to find it important. If someone is looking for an explanation of what algorithmic bias is, they can find it in the lead now, I think. If they don't think discrimination and bias is important, it's not our job to convince them. Wikipedia is neutral, above all else. --
Owlsmcgee (
talk)
04:08, 31 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Perhaps my words are not ideal.
MOS:INTRO says The reason for a topic's noteworthiness should be established, or at least introduced, in the lead (but not by using subjective "peacock terms" such as "acclaimed" or "award-winning" or "hit").--Farang Rak Tham(Talk)07:33, 31 July 2018 (UTC)reply
The first article linked is a summary of ethical problems posed by algorithms and an attempt at a taxonomy, which I've already created based on a more widely-cited paper. It also essentially says that algorithmic bias isn't a problem unless it has real-world consequences, which is already addressed in the article. The second outlines some attempts by Google and Microsoft, which I've added to the end of the history section. The third is interesting but isn't actually proposing mitigation, it's instead proposing an alternative form of measuring algorithmic bias; however, it is only a working paper (a proposal for research) and hasn't actually been tested. Once there are results of an actual research study instead of a proposal, I'll be eager to incorporate that into a broader section on mitigation. --
Owlsmcgee (
talk)
04:50, 31 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Great find. I've included it as the first line in the "contemporary critiques and responses" section, to help set the context. Because the article is about the problem of bias in algorithms, I don't think it is essential to delve into all of the algorithms that are unbiased, which seems a bit like listing all the horses that a car is not. But, I think for equal weight and context, this is an important perspective, so I have introduced it very early in the section, though briefly. I think it's fair. --
Owlsmcgee (
talk)
04:49, 31 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Thanks
Farang Rak Tham. I will tackle these soon — I know the GA process should take about a week, but I've just seen these notes now. If it's at all possible to give me until the end of July to tackle this I would appreciate it. --
Owlsmcgee (
talk)
18:48, 15 July 2018 (UTC)reply
Having looked at the lead again, I think your recent edits sufficiently address the noteworthiness of the subject matter. I don't see any reason not to pass the article for GA. Congratulations! I am happy to see you made it through. Perhaps you will think I have been a rather fuzzy reviewer, but I would not want to get the article delisted at a later time by some other editor that comes along and doesn't know how much effort you put into this.
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the
Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.