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the term "colon" is misused in the article. its use reveals a pro-Algerian view. Pied-Noirs were not colons but indigenous, Algeria was a French territory, legally won by war, since 1830 and most of them never went to France. that makes three or four generations living in French Algeria. By the 60s, the Pied-Noirs were not colons anymore but indigenous born from European roots (like the American or Australian citizens doesn't name "colon" themselves anymore, but still are from the native civilisations view), how can we name this in English? Actually the Pied-Noirs named "colons" the metropolitan French! Those who were not born in Algeria but who lived there (including militarymen, administrative, teachers, owners, etc), actually the metropolitans were richer than the Pied-Noirs. The metropolitan named the European indigenous "Pied-Noirs" and the Jews named them "the Pathos" for their catholic religion. the Muslim indigenous named "colons" as a pejorative term for all non-Arabs. Also it should be mentioned the European-origins indigenous, the Jews indigenous and the Muslisms did not lived together but in separate neighborhood cities. The Muslims lived in the outskirts in small towns named "village nègre" (English translation is easy) by the non-Muslim, the latter living in modern European style cities, by that time, Algiers was the 2nd French city after Paris. The communities were not isolated though as there were trading and civil relationship between European-origins and Jew-origins and Arab-origins Algerians. The Muslim Algerians kids went at French school with the Catholic Pied-Noirs and the Jew Pied-Noirs, and the adults worked for French companies, until nationalism and emancipation rose from the awareness of the colons defeat at Dien Bien Phu in 1954 and its retreat from Indochina. Hence this war was named Algerian War of Independence by the Arabs but Algerian War by the French. Actually, from the French point of view the Independence of Algeria would had been a cessession from the metropolitan territory involving the army, the Pied-Noirs, the Jews and the Muslims (like the US did vis-à-vis the British). The failed Generals coup d'état would had probably resulted in this situation. Also what the Free World names the "Vietnam War" is named "Vietnamese War of Independence" by the Vietnamese, which is true from their point of view the same way its true for the Algerians. Just naming the conflict from one or the other way indicates the point of view vis-à-vis the event, that's why I'm trying to neutralize the current article (understanding both points of view, except the French Communist pro-FLN fifth column). Shame On You 20:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
And actually war of conquest is legal. It falls under ius ad bellum. But that the anti-White faction tends simply to ignore as it is inconvenient. -- 41.150.18.235 ( talk) 08:18, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
No, it isn't legal under mordern international legislation. The White suptremacists always forget that. Guinsberg ( talk) 02:06, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
This article should be renamed Algerian War of Independence or Algerian Revolution because the name "Algerian War" could also refer to the Algerian Civil War that took place in the 1990s. Charles Essie ( talk) 18:11, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
The entry makes it seem that this was so. And it is only FLN's civilian casualties that ever receive a number. We're left in the dark about casualties produced by the French, which, considering their superior firepower and the beastiality of their attacks, were arguably much higher. We have evidence of French attacks on civilians - the entry itself presents one of them: a picture of a French soldier shooting at fleeing civilians. So why doesn't the corpus of the text reflect that?
I also removed several instances where the word 'terrorist' was used (almost exclusively to refer to Algerians), and I may do so again in the future. The word 'terrorist' is not NPOV and it wasn't even used correctly - it referred also to incidents of Algerian native attacks on French military. Poor Algerians, they just can't help! Even when (unlike the French) they spare the "civilians" from their independence struggle, they're nothing but terrorists. 187.58.109.156 ( talk) 15:03, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
The French Wikipedia has articles on 15 battles/events. We only have articles on nine. (You can compare the infoboxes of the two articles.) We need to translate some of the French articles 108.254.160.23 ( talk) 04:47, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
You have surely missed a zero off the death toll given at the foot of the box on the right hand side, which should read 1,530,000 rather than 153,000. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.30.13.146 ( talk) 08:23, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
I was absoloutly shocked to find such picture here. This is a site open and frequently visited by all kinds of people, including chicldren. Who, in his right mind, thought it appropriate to show a picture of two cut-off heads with their genitalls in their mouths, without any warning? Please remove it NOW. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.172.169.59 ( talk) 00:33, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Thank you very very much. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
109.186.52.13 (
talk)
11:51, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Historian Student ( talk · contribs) has attempted to launch an edit war over whether the phrase "French military victory; FLN political victory" should be included in the infobox. Regardless of which way the discussion goes, this kind of thing should be done by consensus - not by one new user who feels him/herself above wiki guidelines. — Brigade Piron ( talk) 19:16, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Historian Student ( talk) 20:58, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Historian Student ( talk) 22:28, 21 November 2014 (UTC) There's no consensus, only some vandals forcing their PoV. I gived enough citation for encyclopedia to refute the military victory theory, there's also many french author who deny it, it's absolutly not a fact. I don't care about your personal opinion only facts and citation matters.
Historian Student ( talk) 22:54, 21 November 2014 (UTC) Nope, you're the one who insist on putting false information for nationalists purpose. I'm for removing anything related to the military victory or not. And like I said I don't care about your opinion about my source, who are way more serious than yours.
My citation [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]
It states that the war was a civil war between Loyalists and Muslim insurrectionists. If religion is going to be included shouldn't it be something like 'Christian and Muslim Loyalist and Muslim Nationlists'? 89.243.7.195 ( talk) 12:20, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
I've just watched the documentary "French President Charles De Gaulle and the Six-Year War (1960)" directed to it by a post script in the external links section of "Algerian War". I am credited as the writer of the documentary, (I produced it as well, the two named producers were the bosses at United Press (Bill Higginbotham) and at MovieTone News (Edmund Reek) who did nothing but say yes to the idea of producing the film. UPMT distributed the documentary which was successfully sold to, among others, NBC which recut and reused the piece as a half hour on their network. You might be able to get that version from their film library, although that is notoriously difficult. I also noted that it is online on the Internet Archive.
Thanks for reminding me of my better days. And you might want to mention the credits in your external links credits.
-Reese Schonfeld (who in 1960 was still writing as Maurice Schonfeld) Please let me know how I might purchase a copy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.175.114.101 ( talk) 17:36, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
::::::::::::: I hate it when bad things happen the English language.
List your sources here so we can discuss their reliability
Algerian victory [13] [14] [15] [16] [17]
Military stalemate [18] [19] [20] [21] [22]
1.5 million dead [23] [24] [25] [26]
M.Bitton ( talk) 17:54, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Of course, if this isn't enough, I can provide 100, 200, 500 citation maybe?
Kaka322 ( talk) 20:22, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
L'infobox découpe l'issue du conflit en plusieurs parties (victoire militaire/ politique) je suis désolé mais on ne découpe pas une guerre et en l'occurence une revolution en plusieurs issues distinctes et indépendantes les unes des autres. Comment on peut parler de victoire militaire francaise quand l'adversaire (FLN) ne lutte pas pour un but militaire, mais comme pour toute guerre dite revolutionnaire et assymetrique, pour un objectif politique.
A partir de la la conclusion selon laquelle on assiste a une "victoire militaire" francaise n'est absolument pas pertinent et vrai.
J'edite donc en consequence (Sam9)
Sachaton ( talk) 19:05, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
No, you have started a vandal action by imposing your will without justification or argument or consensus If you with arguments, thank you to come answer the discussion I opened higher, otherwise thank you to avoid vandalizing the content of this page.-- *sammy* ( talk) 16:33, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
Only to remind, that the object of this referendum is not about the fact to choose whether algére should be independent or not, but if the voters in France approves the ratification of the Evian agreements and they grant all powers to de Gaulle to implement them.-- *sammy* ( talk) 05:31, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
To Sachaton,
Thank you to avoid deleting sourced and significant passages to understanding the conflict by non-sourced version, and notes that a "interpretation" of the author and personal wrong. I explained how just above this discussion why. Thank you to respond to the argument by argument, not by vandalism, thanks. -- *sammy* ( talk) 20:15, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
To sammy, last time we told you, stop this edit war, no place for nationalism here thx -- Sachaton ( talk) 05:33, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
For the "first" There's a consensus [55] [56] [57] [58] [59] [60]. "Secondly", that's your POV. "A war is a war" regardless of the conflict. Keep calm, check others discussions about the intro and infobox. -- Sachaton ( talk) 16:21, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
(UTC)
I don't care what happens here, but can sammy please use the "preview" button more before posting? A series of 5 or 6 rapid-fire small edits polluting watchlists is not a good idea. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 20:25, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
Seem correct like this for me Sachaton ( talk) 20:48, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
In the introductory text it is written: "Although the military campaigns led against Algerian nationalists were complete successes, with most prominent FLN leaders killed or arrested and terror attacks effectively stopped," However, the three members are each false and not sourced. 1) The fact that the French military companions were a complete success recess is wrong. And clearly not serious. The ALN army has been greatly weakened in men and munitions but retains half of its 1958 employees until the end of the conflict ( http://hpics.li/06fd0b0 http://books.google.fr/books?id=be9xestT67sC&printsec=frontcover&hl=fr&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false )...2) That the principal of the historic FLN leaders were killed or arrested does not contradict the fact that they are replaced refutes the "complete success" of "1)" ... 3) The terrorist and military activity of ALN never stopped until 62 (except in Algiers after the Battle of Algiers, but absolutely not in the rest of the country). (sam9)
Sachaton ( talk) 00:18, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm not totally okay with it but let's keep this wording, it seems neutral to me and better not to be too accurate here... Sachaton ( talk) 15:38, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
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More than 2 million Algerians were killed by the French. I think this deserves an article titled the Algerian Genocide. - Ribbontool ( talk) 17:35, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
This is alleged by noone but diehard ex FLN. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.231.223.191 ( talk) 16:22, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
the term "colon" is misused in the article. its use reveals a pro-Algerian view. Pied-Noirs were not colons but indigenous, Algeria was a French territory, legally won by war, since 1830 and most of them never went to France. that makes three or four generations living in French Algeria. By the 60s, the Pied-Noirs were not colons anymore but indigenous born from European roots (like the American or Australian citizens doesn't name "colon" themselves anymore, but still are from the native civilisations view), how can we name this in English? Actually the Pied-Noirs named "colons" the metropolitan French! Those who were not born in Algeria but who lived there (including militarymen, administrative, teachers, owners, etc), actually the metropolitans were richer than the Pied-Noirs. The metropolitan named the European indigenous "Pied-Noirs" and the Jews named them "the Pathos" for their catholic religion. the Muslim indigenous named "colons" as a pejorative term for all non-Arabs. Also it should be mentioned the European-origins indigenous, the Jews indigenous and the Muslisms did not lived together but in separate neighborhood cities. The Muslims lived in the outskirts in small towns named "village nègre" (English translation is easy) by the non-Muslim, the latter living in modern European style cities, by that time, Algiers was the 2nd French city after Paris. The communities were not isolated though as there were trading and civil relationship between European-origins and Jew-origins and Arab-origins Algerians. The Muslim Algerians kids went at French school with the Catholic Pied-Noirs and the Jew Pied-Noirs, and the adults worked for French companies, until nationalism and emancipation rose from the awareness of the colons defeat at Dien Bien Phu in 1954 and its retreat from Indochina. Hence this war was named Algerian War of Independence by the Arabs but Algerian War by the French. Actually, from the French point of view the Independence of Algeria would had been a cessession from the metropolitan territory involving the army, the Pied-Noirs, the Jews and the Muslims (like the US did vis-à-vis the British). The failed Generals coup d'état would had probably resulted in this situation. Also what the Free World names the "Vietnam War" is named "Vietnamese War of Independence" by the Vietnamese, which is true from their point of view the same way its true for the Algerians. Just naming the conflict from one or the other way indicates the point of view vis-à-vis the event, that's why I'm trying to neutralize the current article (understanding both points of view, except the French Communist pro-FLN fifth column). Shame On You 20:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
And actually war of conquest is legal. It falls under ius ad bellum. But that the anti-White faction tends simply to ignore as it is inconvenient. -- 41.150.18.235 ( talk) 08:18, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
No, it isn't legal under mordern international legislation. The White suptremacists always forget that. Guinsberg ( talk) 02:06, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
This article should be renamed Algerian War of Independence or Algerian Revolution because the name "Algerian War" could also refer to the Algerian Civil War that took place in the 1990s. Charles Essie ( talk) 18:11, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
The entry makes it seem that this was so. And it is only FLN's civilian casualties that ever receive a number. We're left in the dark about casualties produced by the French, which, considering their superior firepower and the beastiality of their attacks, were arguably much higher. We have evidence of French attacks on civilians - the entry itself presents one of them: a picture of a French soldier shooting at fleeing civilians. So why doesn't the corpus of the text reflect that?
I also removed several instances where the word 'terrorist' was used (almost exclusively to refer to Algerians), and I may do so again in the future. The word 'terrorist' is not NPOV and it wasn't even used correctly - it referred also to incidents of Algerian native attacks on French military. Poor Algerians, they just can't help! Even when (unlike the French) they spare the "civilians" from their independence struggle, they're nothing but terrorists. 187.58.109.156 ( talk) 15:03, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
The French Wikipedia has articles on 15 battles/events. We only have articles on nine. (You can compare the infoboxes of the two articles.) We need to translate some of the French articles 108.254.160.23 ( talk) 04:47, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
You have surely missed a zero off the death toll given at the foot of the box on the right hand side, which should read 1,530,000 rather than 153,000. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.30.13.146 ( talk) 08:23, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
I was absoloutly shocked to find such picture here. This is a site open and frequently visited by all kinds of people, including chicldren. Who, in his right mind, thought it appropriate to show a picture of two cut-off heads with their genitalls in their mouths, without any warning? Please remove it NOW. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.172.169.59 ( talk) 00:33, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Thank you very very much. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
109.186.52.13 (
talk)
11:51, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Historian Student ( talk · contribs) has attempted to launch an edit war over whether the phrase "French military victory; FLN political victory" should be included in the infobox. Regardless of which way the discussion goes, this kind of thing should be done by consensus - not by one new user who feels him/herself above wiki guidelines. — Brigade Piron ( talk) 19:16, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Historian Student ( talk) 20:58, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Historian Student ( talk) 22:28, 21 November 2014 (UTC) There's no consensus, only some vandals forcing their PoV. I gived enough citation for encyclopedia to refute the military victory theory, there's also many french author who deny it, it's absolutly not a fact. I don't care about your personal opinion only facts and citation matters.
Historian Student ( talk) 22:54, 21 November 2014 (UTC) Nope, you're the one who insist on putting false information for nationalists purpose. I'm for removing anything related to the military victory or not. And like I said I don't care about your opinion about my source, who are way more serious than yours.
My citation [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]
It states that the war was a civil war between Loyalists and Muslim insurrectionists. If religion is going to be included shouldn't it be something like 'Christian and Muslim Loyalist and Muslim Nationlists'? 89.243.7.195 ( talk) 12:20, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
I've just watched the documentary "French President Charles De Gaulle and the Six-Year War (1960)" directed to it by a post script in the external links section of "Algerian War". I am credited as the writer of the documentary, (I produced it as well, the two named producers were the bosses at United Press (Bill Higginbotham) and at MovieTone News (Edmund Reek) who did nothing but say yes to the idea of producing the film. UPMT distributed the documentary which was successfully sold to, among others, NBC which recut and reused the piece as a half hour on their network. You might be able to get that version from their film library, although that is notoriously difficult. I also noted that it is online on the Internet Archive.
Thanks for reminding me of my better days. And you might want to mention the credits in your external links credits.
-Reese Schonfeld (who in 1960 was still writing as Maurice Schonfeld) Please let me know how I might purchase a copy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.175.114.101 ( talk) 17:36, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
::::::::::::: I hate it when bad things happen the English language.
List your sources here so we can discuss their reliability
Algerian victory [13] [14] [15] [16] [17]
Military stalemate [18] [19] [20] [21] [22]
1.5 million dead [23] [24] [25] [26]
M.Bitton ( talk) 17:54, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Of course, if this isn't enough, I can provide 100, 200, 500 citation maybe?
Kaka322 ( talk) 20:22, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
L'infobox découpe l'issue du conflit en plusieurs parties (victoire militaire/ politique) je suis désolé mais on ne découpe pas une guerre et en l'occurence une revolution en plusieurs issues distinctes et indépendantes les unes des autres. Comment on peut parler de victoire militaire francaise quand l'adversaire (FLN) ne lutte pas pour un but militaire, mais comme pour toute guerre dite revolutionnaire et assymetrique, pour un objectif politique.
A partir de la la conclusion selon laquelle on assiste a une "victoire militaire" francaise n'est absolument pas pertinent et vrai.
J'edite donc en consequence (Sam9)
Sachaton ( talk) 19:05, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
No, you have started a vandal action by imposing your will without justification or argument or consensus If you with arguments, thank you to come answer the discussion I opened higher, otherwise thank you to avoid vandalizing the content of this page.-- *sammy* ( talk) 16:33, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
Only to remind, that the object of this referendum is not about the fact to choose whether algére should be independent or not, but if the voters in France approves the ratification of the Evian agreements and they grant all powers to de Gaulle to implement them.-- *sammy* ( talk) 05:31, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
To Sachaton,
Thank you to avoid deleting sourced and significant passages to understanding the conflict by non-sourced version, and notes that a "interpretation" of the author and personal wrong. I explained how just above this discussion why. Thank you to respond to the argument by argument, not by vandalism, thanks. -- *sammy* ( talk) 20:15, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
To sammy, last time we told you, stop this edit war, no place for nationalism here thx -- Sachaton ( talk) 05:33, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
For the "first" There's a consensus [55] [56] [57] [58] [59] [60]. "Secondly", that's your POV. "A war is a war" regardless of the conflict. Keep calm, check others discussions about the intro and infobox. -- Sachaton ( talk) 16:21, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
(UTC)
I don't care what happens here, but can sammy please use the "preview" button more before posting? A series of 5 or 6 rapid-fire small edits polluting watchlists is not a good idea. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 20:25, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
Seem correct like this for me Sachaton ( talk) 20:48, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
In the introductory text it is written: "Although the military campaigns led against Algerian nationalists were complete successes, with most prominent FLN leaders killed or arrested and terror attacks effectively stopped," However, the three members are each false and not sourced. 1) The fact that the French military companions were a complete success recess is wrong. And clearly not serious. The ALN army has been greatly weakened in men and munitions but retains half of its 1958 employees until the end of the conflict ( http://hpics.li/06fd0b0 http://books.google.fr/books?id=be9xestT67sC&printsec=frontcover&hl=fr&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false )...2) That the principal of the historic FLN leaders were killed or arrested does not contradict the fact that they are replaced refutes the "complete success" of "1)" ... 3) The terrorist and military activity of ALN never stopped until 62 (except in Algiers after the Battle of Algiers, but absolutely not in the rest of the country). (sam9)
Sachaton ( talk) 00:18, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm not totally okay with it but let's keep this wording, it seems neutral to me and better not to be too accurate here... Sachaton ( talk) 15:38, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
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More than 2 million Algerians were killed by the French. I think this deserves an article titled the Algerian Genocide. - Ribbontool ( talk) 17:35, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
This is alleged by noone but diehard ex FLN. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.231.223.191 ( talk) 16:22, 1 November 2016 (UTC)