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Archive 1 |
The source is a blog article. It estimates $190/meter^2 capital costs and a maximum of 1.24 gallons/meter^2/year and then says oil would have to be $855/barrel to justify this. I doubt these numbers would get into a peer-reviewed publication. Also, there is an article where they associate this unreliable report with Wikipedia. [1] I have removed it. Vincecate 03:17, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
The claim that oil from this algae is special is not true. All vegetable oil is triglycerides which is glyceride in which the glycerol is esterified with three fatty acids. Any of these can be used as feedstock for hydrocracking. Vincecate 03:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
The claim that algae fuel could do 5000 gallons/acre/year refers to the Biodiesel page, and that page has no mention of any data about this. This is a pretty incredible claim that I've seen elsewhere but without any good data. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.225.51.227 ( talk) 05:33, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Here's where the numbers came from, I'm not sure how to edit citations for books. —Preceding unsigned comment added by K2daz3 ( talk • contribs) 15:01, 25 February 2009 (UTC) http://books.google.com/books?id=0vBalrSH_OEC&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=The+per+unit+area+yield+of+oil+from+algae+is+estimated+to+be+from+between+5,000+to+20,000+gallons+per+acre,+per+year&source=bl&ots=jqV76vIwUu&sig=FUB5PW2oh8I2WyIOc7WJwKnfrh0&hl=en&ei=dFylSf3NA6KBtwe5v9TTBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result
Can we please fix the intro? "Algae fuel.... is a biofuel from algae." is the only useful information before the article breaks into a sale pitch. This is an article on algae fuel not bio-fuel or algae.
Someone more fluent in pedia can add this reference
Microalgae have gained renewed interest from the government as well as research institution in the past five years because of their potential for energy production through biomass yields that are ten to over a hundred times more land efficient than other biodiesel sources (Chisti 2007).
Chisti, Yusuf. 2007. Biodiesel from microalgae. Biotechnology Advances 25 (3):294-306. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Orfintain ( talk • contribs) 23:56, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Some links I consider interesting:
-- Mac ( talk) 07:21, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
"While using the oil in this manner does not require the additional energy needed for transesterification, (processing the oil with an alcohol and a catalyst to produce biodiesel), it does require modifications to a normal diesel engine, whereas biodiesel can be run in any modern diesel engine, unmodified, that is designed to use ultra-low sulfur diesel, the new diesel fuel standard for the United States of America that went into effect in the fall of 2006."
The above sentence is missing some periods.... can anyone tell us where they belong?? Mantion ( talk) 23:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I added this landmark current research of Philippines due to its bio-diversity: Ateneo de Manila University's Department of Environmental Science, isolated Philippines species, on algal mass production to source out oil as alternative source of fuel. "Carbon dioxide as a product of aerobic decomposition can be utilized to enhance the growth of the algal species. Since the alga is also a rich source of proteins and carbohydrates, upon extraction of oil, the algae can still be utilized as food for livestock or fish; 1,000 to 10,000 gallons of algae are needed to produce a liter of biodiesel." abs-cbnnews.com, Ateneo scientists working on algae as biodiesel source -- Florentino floro ( talk) 06:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I've added a citation in paragraph 6 under "Biofuel production," where a citation was called for, after this sentence: "Open-pond systems for the most part have been given up for the cultivation of algae with high-oil content." I cited the UNH article, "Widescale Biodiesel Production from Algae," which also appears in the external links for this article, because that article does state that "most groups now working in this field (including our collaboration) have shifted to focusing on the use of proprietary photobioreactors." It goes on to explain that these solve a number of problems, including "takeover by low oil strains." While the emphasis here is on a single factor, as opposed to several in the UNH article, it is at least a viable source for the main claim in the sentence (open pond systems have been mostly given up).
Also, I've used a slightly different citation style (author first), because it includes more information and there does not seem to be a single approach used consistently in this article.
Screeve ( talk) 22:57, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
FAQs:
1) What water solutions encourage algae growth.
2) What is the key process to fatten the algae?
3) What temperature is best for algae growth?
4) The best method to extract the oil from the algae in a continues process (much be continues to be able to produce the largest amounts of oil).
5) What are the government hoops we must jump through?
6) How we can make the factory more 'green' and use less energy?
7) Is there a way for factory to be able to create excuses energy we could sell back to the grid?
8) How we can make a living selling carbon credits to other companies?
9) Is it Possible to make Fuel at Home using Algae, as this supposedly requires very little space ?? --Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.138.120.37 ( talk) 11:51, 7 July 2008 (UTC) -- Mac ( talk) 12:53, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
10) Given we have algae available, how do we extract oil from it? Can it be done 'at home' as a DIY project? Jack ( talk) 15:23, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
11) can any body tell me how to destroy the chlorofills without damaging the oil —Preceding unsigned comment added by Driaan101 ( talk • contribs) 09:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Yikes, think there're enough external links here? I've tagged that section for {{ Cleanup-spam}}; do we really, really need 800,000 external links? Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ( Broken clamshells• Otter chirps) 20:07, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. This page has become a spam farm. Many of these links do not qualify as Wikipedia material and belong elsewhere (DMOZ?).-- E8 ( talk) 04:34, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I can't tell what this is supposed to mean:
In the 2008 U.S. Department of Energy Biomass and Biofuels Update to the United States Congress (by the Office of Biomass Program)[13] appears the move to algae fuels.[14]
Agreed ... makes no sense to me either. And please sign your posts! Htfiddler ( talk) 02:20, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
There are other confusing sentences too. Especially bewildering was the cost of $5 to $10 per kg. WHAT costs this much ($4.50/lb)? Is it the dried algae? Certainly the oil isn't being priced by the kg, is it?-- Yuezrnaem ( talk) 16:22, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I entered "Global energy" into the Wikipedia search box, and was re-directed to this page. This seems wrong to me, but as a newbie I don't know what to do about it. Thanks to anybody who can fix it. Robsavoie ( talk) 20:43, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
This article could be very good with a bit of clean up, some formatting, a couple relevant images, and some reasonable data. It's not that it's bad but looks like it could have been written by a 14 year old with a good grasp of the English language. Tiny.ian ( talk) 23:57, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Water hyacinth can be a better source of biogas than algae. Water hyacinth grows fast in wastewater. 201.9.96.125 ( talk) 12:30, 21 December 2008 (UTC)agre22
Why develop and fuss with new tech, when old will yield immediate high quality results. Let grow what will grow in a given feed stream, (let bio competition determine)feed being sewage, ect. Strain using centrifugal force or if grown in small diameter tubing up the south side of a sky scaper, gravity [hot water, oxygen out top], slightly dry using waste heat not used to warm feed stock (from boiler used to produce steam), grind if needed (alot of slime turns to dust anyway when dried) and burn algal dust stream in a force air boiler to produce steam - electricity. Ash could be used to supplement the mineral content of the feed stream. Even the CO2 from burning should be used. 8" deep, plastic lined trenches with a tent covering of clear plastic tarp could be easily set up with a skid loader in any unused land. No contamination, temporary (if need be). Genetic manipulation -more cost/time, bio reactors -more cost/time, bio diesel-more cost/time, cellulose cracking -more time/cost. KISS principal. The algae stream could even be pumped like oil through existing pipelines or the dust by rail. Is it really that hard? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Julmcc ( talk • contribs) 16:51, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
There is an interesting article on cosmicLog [3] regarding construction of a $273 million, 40-megawatt power plant by 2011, using technology pioneered by the Washington-based Solena Group. Seems as if this might be becoming the flavour of the month. l santry ( talk) 20:08, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
The graph of efficiency vs area is not good. It looks like someone just plugged some values into Matlab and threw it up. Where did the values even come from? Also, the analysis following the graph is extremely nonencyclopedic. 192.35.35.34 ( talk) 20:14, 11 June 2009 (UTC) I thought I was the only one not understanding anything about that graph. I think a graph should clarify an issue not to make one wonder what it is about. It would be nice to know the surface area the average American would need to supply his energy demands or something similar (surface needed for a typical family car) , related to the efficiency of the algal production. Viridiflavus ( talk) 21:43, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
This part of the Yield section does not compute:
More recently, Valcent have claimed 150,000 US gallons may be possible [14]; their most recent actual reported yields could reach 33,000 gallons per acre per year (21,153,000 gal/sq mi·a or 31,000 m3/km2·a) if they could achieve their yeilds with an algal species having 50% lipids. [15] In 2007, the U.S consumed 20.680 million barrels per day (3.2879×10^6 m3/d) of petroleum or 317 million US gallons per year (1.20×10^6 m3/a).[16] Thus, with the production capabilities of Valcent, it would only require 15,000 square metres (160,000 sq ft) of land to completely displace petroleum use in the U.S.
U.S. oil consumption of 20.680 million barrels per day would amount to 317 billion gallons per year, not 317 million. That's a factor of 1000 difference. After that I'm not sure where the numbers come from, but using the current and projected capacity reported by Valcent (33,000 - 150,000 gal/acre-year), it would require 2.1 to 9.6 million acres of land to completely displace U.S. petroleum consumption. That's about a million times more than the 160,000 sq ft stated in the article.
I also question the validity and source of the graph. It appears to be an original work and based on speculation and estimates.
Perhaps inclusion of algal biofuel from other countries, such as the Algal Biofuel Consortium in Cambridge, UK should be included too? Shuggyg ( talk) 15:06, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I can't find anything in this article about whether or not the fuel is the algae itself, or a by-product of the algae. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.30.235 ( talk) 22:48, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
It seems the fuel is a by product of the algae oil and the algae oil is a product of the algae. Essentially, the algae isn't the fuel.
A couple of things which aren't clear to myself are: As far as I'm aware, someone correct me if I'm wrong, the algae use or feed on sulphur and perhaps other minerals/nutrients are also taken up by the algae, therefore the need for a ecofootprint needs to be taken into account. Such an eco-footprint would determine whether the sulphur sources were offsetting the carbon gains or not!
The next concept which isn't clear or lacking, is the matter of what types of vehicles such algal fuel could be used within i.e. only specific vehicles manufactured specifically for this fuel? or are substantial costs associated with modifying a vehicle to run on algal based fuels? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eco impact ( talk • contribs) 12:40, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Algae oil is also used in combination with olive oil in food items. AnimeJanai ( talk) 23:31, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Why are there none included? I believe Licella, in Australia, is already producing algal oil for use in the marine industry? http://licella.info/index.php it certainly has been given a large governmental grant to do this Shuggyg ( talk) 16:18, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20100402-20573-2.html Algae master quantum science ..... "[Certain] water-dwelling algae are in effect highly miniaturised quantum computers... They have mastered the process of photosynthesis so well that they can convert sunlight into electrical energy with near-perfect efficiency." ..... "recent work by other researchers has documented that light-absorbing molecules in some photosynthetic proteins capture and transfer energy according to quantum-mechanical probability laws instead of classical laws at temperatures up to 180 degrees Kelvin. 'Where our study breaks new ground is that we observe the same quantum coherence at normal room temperature,' says Professor Curmi." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.61.39 ( talk) 21:12, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Can one include the yield of the different algae species and add more species ?. -- Mac ( talk) 10:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay, [4] table 6.1 names the culprits. Top producers are:
Species lipids (%dry weight) Scenedesmus dimorphus 16-40% Chlamydomonas rheinhardii 21% Chlorella vulgaris 14-22% Spirogyra sp. 11-21% Euglena gracilis 14-20% Prymnesium parvum 22-38%
-- 99.233.186.4 ( talk) 01:26, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
It is misleading to say that algae produces zero net CO2 emissions because this statement doesn't take into account the processing of the oil produced by the algae. Processes used to perform this tend to use heat and external chemicals that both consume energy and produce CO2 waste. Only if the energy produced by the algae is used exclusively for all processes related to the production of algal fuel would it be possible to say such a statement —Preceding unsigned comment added by Teilhardo ( talk • contribs) 00:28, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Total solar energy reaching the earth is 1367 watts per square meter. Factoring out cosine of latitude and cosine of rotation and nighttime, you're left with about 240 watts per acre in the USA. Given the energy content of gasoline, this gives 211,000 gallons of gasoline per acre if you convert 100 percent of solar power into oil. Maybe someone can double check my math.
Photo synthesis is not that efficient, only 1 or 2 percent. It only uses a narrow part of the spectrum, for example. Just from basic energy and efficiency constraints, I do not believe it is possible to get more than about 1000 or 2000 gallons per acre, and that would really be pushing things to the limits of efficency and year-round production. DonPMitchell ( talk) 18:14, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Note that 342 W/m² is world average. Neglecting cloud cover, irradiation in the tropics and most of continental US (except Alaska) is greater than that. Further, the review article, Prospective of biodiesel production utilizing microalgae as the cell factories: A comprehensive discussion[www.academicjournals.org/ajb/PDF/pdf2010/8Mar/Verma%20et%20al.pdf predatory publisher], claims photosynthetic efficiency for micro-algae as 3..8%. Significantly, using irradiation of 342 W/m² as above, 8% efficiency would translate to an upper bound of 26.9L/m², or 28,800 US gal/acre per year. -- 99.233.186.4 ( talk) 22:47, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
The statement at the end of the lead section "any CO2 taken out of the atmosphere by the algae is returned when the biofuels are burned" may be incorrect IF the algal growth doesn't just take CO2 from the atmosphere. For example, algae grown in the ocean may draw on CO2 reserves sequestered in the ocean water. So I've requested a citation at that point (and will look into it myself). It may well be an order or two of magnitude *less* added CO2 than what burning fossils liberates, but I'm unconvinced that the algal fuel equation results in *no* net liberated CO2. Twang ( talk) 07:48, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Biohydrocarbon redirects to here. I don't really see any reason for that as there are other (biological) methods to make hydrocarbons(methane by anaerobic decay of biomass). By the way is biodiesel made from algea really hydrocarbons like real diesel and not esters? 83.188.246.187 ( talk) 22:41, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
I have added this "Further Reading":
Lane, Jim (18 April 2010).
"Salt Water: The Tangy Taste of Energy Freedom". Renewable Energy World. Retrieved 21 April 2010.
It has a list of projects in various countries that could be incorprated into the article. Sory I can't do it at present. dinghy ( talk) 12:58, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
Basic economic theory states that total cost = fixed cost + variable cost ; these enable you to scale production. For algae, http://iwawaterwiki .org/xwiki/bin/view/Articles/BiofuelfromAlage asserts that "The cost of production per kilogram reduces to roughly $0.47 and $0.60 for photobioreactors and raceways respectively, if the annual biomass production capacity is increased to 10,000 t." This contradicts unreferenced claims in the article, so I'm removing those claims --unless you can find a better reference? -- 99.233.186.4 ( talk) 12:57, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
[8] claims cost of food grade algae is $5000/tonne, and that biodiesel from algae "can never compete at oil prices under $800/bbl." This orders-of-magnitude discrepancy from the more optimistic estimates deserves careful analysis. -- 99.233.186.4 ( talk) 13:27, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
I propose to merge Green crude into this article. Green crude is a very short article originally created to promote a certain company. By its nature it is an algae fuel. Beagel ( talk) 11:02, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Support merge. Thomas Kluyver ( talk) 00:29, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
What is actually achieved? Somewhere on the internet it is written:
What is a better place to report actual results than in this article?
Hogne ( talk) 14:39, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
[9] Arlo James Barnes 06:48, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
I made this change as saying in the article 'incorrect please see another article' is not the correct way to tag dubious content. Either removed it or use an appropriate tag to indicate it is in dispute. I'm not sure what exactly is disputed here, the Chinese tallow article doesn't currently give figures. Perhaps it's because the Chinese tallow article says oil palms are the second best not Chinese tallow. However this article is apparently cited whereas I don't see anything in the Chines tallow article although I haven't looked in to the oil palm article Nil Einne ( talk) 22:11, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
There are two possible errors in the article.
One is where it is stated that the use of SVO requires an engine designed for low sulfur diesel. I believe that language indicating that SVO is suitable for such engine designs has been misconstrued into a false impression that such designs are required.
The second is where the relative yields of algae vs soil crops is mentioned. Grapeseed is listed where it is probably rapeseed(canola a variant) that is intended. 68.18.115.52 ( talk) 03:26, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
There is a discussion merging Algae jet fuel into Aviation_biofuel or this article. Beagel ( talk) 07:22, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
"5 Companies Making Fuel From Algae Now; Algae is now a burgeoning sector in biofuels with several high-profile start-ups. Here are 5 project leading the pack today." by Jeremy Jacquot Popular Mechanics
97.87.29.188 ( talk) 23:07, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
I think this needs to be added in. ScienceApe ( talk) 21:23, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
There was a reference under the Biodiesel to how only "small-scale" biodiesel production could supply enough fuel to replace world diesel consumption; I read over the ASP final report cited there (it is a big document, but I've read it before) and found no such suggestion anywhere...fixed it.---- — Preceding unsigned comment added by FarmerOnMars ( talk • contribs) 23:18, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Added this: Proviron has been working on a new type of reactor (using flat plates) which reduces the cost of algae cultivation. At AlgaePARC similar research is being conducted using 4 grow systems (1 open pond system and types of 3 closed systems). According to René Wijffels the current systems do not yet allow algae fuel to be produced competitively. However using new (closed) systems, and by scaling up the production it would be possible to reduce costs by 10X, upto a price of 0,4 € per kg of algae. [1]
perhaps some more references are useful — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.182.170.224 ( talk) 08:24, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
I have a financial COI with Honeywell in that they’ve recruited me to help them navigate through Wikipedia and COI Best Practices. I would like to suggest the following contributions in order to better inform Wikipedia's readers on green diesel or hydrogen-derived renewable diesel. User:King4057 ( EthicalWiki) 16:20, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
An impartial editor has reviewed the proposed edit(s) and asked the editor with a conflict of interest to go ahead and make the suggested changes. |
I would like to improve the section called "Hydrocracking to traditional transport fuels" as follows:
I also suggest we rename it "Green Diesel" (the consumer name) or Hydrogren-Derived Renewable Diesel (the scientific title) and add it to the list of algae-based fuel types mentioned in the second paragraph "bioethanol, biogasoline, biomethanol, green diesel..."
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I'm not seeing what the relevance of this is to algae fuel - the references discuss producing diesel from vegetable oils, not algae. SmartSE ( talk) 16:06, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
Part of an edit requested by an editor with a conflict of interest has been implemented. |
I'm giving it a second go and requesting feedback on adding the image (see right) Honeywell donated under the Jet Fuel section as well as adding the below Green Diesel summary (below). I took another look and it was a bit awkward doing a copy/paste from the other page, so I just re-worded it a bit so it made more sense. Corporate Minion 22:54, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Green Diesel section
|
---|
green diesel' (also known as renewable diesel, hydro-treated vegetable oil [1] or hydrogen-derived renewable diesel) [2] through a hydrocracking refinery process that breaks molecules down into shorter hydrocarbon chains used in diesel engines. [3] [1] It has the same chemical properties as petroleum-based diesel [1] meaning that it does not require new engines, pipelines or infrastructure to distribute and use. It has yet to be produced at a cost that is competitive with petroleum. [2] | Algae can be used to produce '
Under the "other" section, there is this strange note. I do not understand what the author intended, and so I'm not certain how to correct it. Can somebody please clarify/simplify? Thank you! 192.33.240.95 ( talk) 14:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC) "Section three of the 2006 alternative fuels act stated that when it is economically feasible to do so-75% per cent of all federal bodies and crown corporation will be motor vehicles."
This section needs to be shortened, a lot of it reads like a college students report on the topic. The subsections themselves are more like advertisements for the two companies outlined. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.135.210.88 ( talk) 17:41, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Although there are not many examples of algae fuels in fiction; Metal Gear 2:Solid Snake deals extensively and in a serious tone with the political ramifications of such technology. Other science subjects like wormholes have brief in fiction sections. I think it's worth noting pop culture seems to overwhelmingly propose that anyone who invents an oil substitute will just disappear into the shadowy world of tactical military espionage; which is rather discouraging. CensoredScribe ( talk) 14:46, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Feel free to chime in at the talk page for Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games on whether or not video games them selves and not just their instruction manuals should be considered suitable references. Trying to apply an academic referencing system made over a hundred years ago to a new medium which looks nothing like the pages of a book is kind of ridiculously outdated. CensoredScribe ( talk) 19:31, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Is there any evidence that the small-scale "commercial sales" cited have not been expensive loss-leaders for the companies involved to keep the research grants and venture capital coming? EllenCT ( talk) 03:53, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
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The "Nutrients" section seems to be a bit unnecessary. The information about the importance of fertilizers such as carbon dioxide, nitrogen and waste water can be much shortened and summarized into a few brief sentences and be included in the "Fuel Production" section. Nutrients required for algae growth are additional information for the algae fuel production, not the main issue to be dealt with. In this way, the whole article will get much more succinct and to the point. Junghaeyun ( talk) 17:51, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
It is stated that although algal biofuel does not produce any sulfur oxides or nitrous oxides, it still produces a reduced amount of carbon monoxide, unburned hydrocarbons, and reduced emission of other harmful pollutants. Although reduced in amount, these pollutants may still have potential risks of health and environment. While disadvantages of other types of fuels are clearly stated, the impacts of these pollutants that the algae fuel produces are not clearly stated enough. More about the potential health or environmental risks of using the algae fuel should be stated so that the neutral point of view can be maintained. Junghaeyun ( talk) 18:11, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
The "History" section contains a lot of information but most of them seem to be insignificant. The first part of the section explaining about how Harder and Von Witsch proposed microalgae as the potential source for fuel is the most important part. All the other historical applications of algal biofuels seem to be too much in amount for readers to read and know all of them. If this section mainly focuses on how the algal biofuel idea was proposed and started to be developed, it will get much clearer and simpler. Junghaeyun ( talk) 19:39, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
The last comment in the introduction states that Algenol, a Florida-based algae biofuels company, hoped to reach commercial-scale operations in 2014. Less than six months after the cited article was published, Florida Governor Rick Scott signed a bill repealing Florida's state mandate that consumer gasoline contain 10% ethanol, leading the CEO of Algenol, Paul Woods, to scrap plans to build a commercial-scale algae biofuels plant. [4] In 2015, Algenol's commercial demonstration module in Ft. Myer's Florida began providing ethanol biofuel to Protec Fuel for distribution in Florida. I believe this reference to Algenol in the introduction needs to be removed or changed due to the ambiguity of it's commercial scale at the present time. [5] Jpg142zg ( talk) 20:58, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The source is a blog article. It estimates $190/meter^2 capital costs and a maximum of 1.24 gallons/meter^2/year and then says oil would have to be $855/barrel to justify this. I doubt these numbers would get into a peer-reviewed publication. Also, there is an article where they associate this unreliable report with Wikipedia. [1] I have removed it. Vincecate 03:17, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
The claim that oil from this algae is special is not true. All vegetable oil is triglycerides which is glyceride in which the glycerol is esterified with three fatty acids. Any of these can be used as feedstock for hydrocracking. Vincecate 03:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
The claim that algae fuel could do 5000 gallons/acre/year refers to the Biodiesel page, and that page has no mention of any data about this. This is a pretty incredible claim that I've seen elsewhere but without any good data. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.225.51.227 ( talk) 05:33, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Here's where the numbers came from, I'm not sure how to edit citations for books. —Preceding unsigned comment added by K2daz3 ( talk • contribs) 15:01, 25 February 2009 (UTC) http://books.google.com/books?id=0vBalrSH_OEC&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=The+per+unit+area+yield+of+oil+from+algae+is+estimated+to+be+from+between+5,000+to+20,000+gallons+per+acre,+per+year&source=bl&ots=jqV76vIwUu&sig=FUB5PW2oh8I2WyIOc7WJwKnfrh0&hl=en&ei=dFylSf3NA6KBtwe5v9TTBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result
Can we please fix the intro? "Algae fuel.... is a biofuel from algae." is the only useful information before the article breaks into a sale pitch. This is an article on algae fuel not bio-fuel or algae.
Someone more fluent in pedia can add this reference
Microalgae have gained renewed interest from the government as well as research institution in the past five years because of their potential for energy production through biomass yields that are ten to over a hundred times more land efficient than other biodiesel sources (Chisti 2007).
Chisti, Yusuf. 2007. Biodiesel from microalgae. Biotechnology Advances 25 (3):294-306. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Orfintain ( talk • contribs) 23:56, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Some links I consider interesting:
-- Mac ( talk) 07:21, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
"While using the oil in this manner does not require the additional energy needed for transesterification, (processing the oil with an alcohol and a catalyst to produce biodiesel), it does require modifications to a normal diesel engine, whereas biodiesel can be run in any modern diesel engine, unmodified, that is designed to use ultra-low sulfur diesel, the new diesel fuel standard for the United States of America that went into effect in the fall of 2006."
The above sentence is missing some periods.... can anyone tell us where they belong?? Mantion ( talk) 23:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I added this landmark current research of Philippines due to its bio-diversity: Ateneo de Manila University's Department of Environmental Science, isolated Philippines species, on algal mass production to source out oil as alternative source of fuel. "Carbon dioxide as a product of aerobic decomposition can be utilized to enhance the growth of the algal species. Since the alga is also a rich source of proteins and carbohydrates, upon extraction of oil, the algae can still be utilized as food for livestock or fish; 1,000 to 10,000 gallons of algae are needed to produce a liter of biodiesel." abs-cbnnews.com, Ateneo scientists working on algae as biodiesel source -- Florentino floro ( talk) 06:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I've added a citation in paragraph 6 under "Biofuel production," where a citation was called for, after this sentence: "Open-pond systems for the most part have been given up for the cultivation of algae with high-oil content." I cited the UNH article, "Widescale Biodiesel Production from Algae," which also appears in the external links for this article, because that article does state that "most groups now working in this field (including our collaboration) have shifted to focusing on the use of proprietary photobioreactors." It goes on to explain that these solve a number of problems, including "takeover by low oil strains." While the emphasis here is on a single factor, as opposed to several in the UNH article, it is at least a viable source for the main claim in the sentence (open pond systems have been mostly given up).
Also, I've used a slightly different citation style (author first), because it includes more information and there does not seem to be a single approach used consistently in this article.
Screeve ( talk) 22:57, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
FAQs:
1) What water solutions encourage algae growth.
2) What is the key process to fatten the algae?
3) What temperature is best for algae growth?
4) The best method to extract the oil from the algae in a continues process (much be continues to be able to produce the largest amounts of oil).
5) What are the government hoops we must jump through?
6) How we can make the factory more 'green' and use less energy?
7) Is there a way for factory to be able to create excuses energy we could sell back to the grid?
8) How we can make a living selling carbon credits to other companies?
9) Is it Possible to make Fuel at Home using Algae, as this supposedly requires very little space ?? --Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.138.120.37 ( talk) 11:51, 7 July 2008 (UTC) -- Mac ( talk) 12:53, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
10) Given we have algae available, how do we extract oil from it? Can it be done 'at home' as a DIY project? Jack ( talk) 15:23, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
11) can any body tell me how to destroy the chlorofills without damaging the oil —Preceding unsigned comment added by Driaan101 ( talk • contribs) 09:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Yikes, think there're enough external links here? I've tagged that section for {{ Cleanup-spam}}; do we really, really need 800,000 external links? Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ( Broken clamshells• Otter chirps) 20:07, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. This page has become a spam farm. Many of these links do not qualify as Wikipedia material and belong elsewhere (DMOZ?).-- E8 ( talk) 04:34, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I can't tell what this is supposed to mean:
In the 2008 U.S. Department of Energy Biomass and Biofuels Update to the United States Congress (by the Office of Biomass Program)[13] appears the move to algae fuels.[14]
Agreed ... makes no sense to me either. And please sign your posts! Htfiddler ( talk) 02:20, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
There are other confusing sentences too. Especially bewildering was the cost of $5 to $10 per kg. WHAT costs this much ($4.50/lb)? Is it the dried algae? Certainly the oil isn't being priced by the kg, is it?-- Yuezrnaem ( talk) 16:22, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I entered "Global energy" into the Wikipedia search box, and was re-directed to this page. This seems wrong to me, but as a newbie I don't know what to do about it. Thanks to anybody who can fix it. Robsavoie ( talk) 20:43, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
This article could be very good with a bit of clean up, some formatting, a couple relevant images, and some reasonable data. It's not that it's bad but looks like it could have been written by a 14 year old with a good grasp of the English language. Tiny.ian ( talk) 23:57, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Water hyacinth can be a better source of biogas than algae. Water hyacinth grows fast in wastewater. 201.9.96.125 ( talk) 12:30, 21 December 2008 (UTC)agre22
Why develop and fuss with new tech, when old will yield immediate high quality results. Let grow what will grow in a given feed stream, (let bio competition determine)feed being sewage, ect. Strain using centrifugal force or if grown in small diameter tubing up the south side of a sky scaper, gravity [hot water, oxygen out top], slightly dry using waste heat not used to warm feed stock (from boiler used to produce steam), grind if needed (alot of slime turns to dust anyway when dried) and burn algal dust stream in a force air boiler to produce steam - electricity. Ash could be used to supplement the mineral content of the feed stream. Even the CO2 from burning should be used. 8" deep, plastic lined trenches with a tent covering of clear plastic tarp could be easily set up with a skid loader in any unused land. No contamination, temporary (if need be). Genetic manipulation -more cost/time, bio reactors -more cost/time, bio diesel-more cost/time, cellulose cracking -more time/cost. KISS principal. The algae stream could even be pumped like oil through existing pipelines or the dust by rail. Is it really that hard? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Julmcc ( talk • contribs) 16:51, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
There is an interesting article on cosmicLog [3] regarding construction of a $273 million, 40-megawatt power plant by 2011, using technology pioneered by the Washington-based Solena Group. Seems as if this might be becoming the flavour of the month. l santry ( talk) 20:08, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
The graph of efficiency vs area is not good. It looks like someone just plugged some values into Matlab and threw it up. Where did the values even come from? Also, the analysis following the graph is extremely nonencyclopedic. 192.35.35.34 ( talk) 20:14, 11 June 2009 (UTC) I thought I was the only one not understanding anything about that graph. I think a graph should clarify an issue not to make one wonder what it is about. It would be nice to know the surface area the average American would need to supply his energy demands or something similar (surface needed for a typical family car) , related to the efficiency of the algal production. Viridiflavus ( talk) 21:43, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
This part of the Yield section does not compute:
More recently, Valcent have claimed 150,000 US gallons may be possible [14]; their most recent actual reported yields could reach 33,000 gallons per acre per year (21,153,000 gal/sq mi·a or 31,000 m3/km2·a) if they could achieve their yeilds with an algal species having 50% lipids. [15] In 2007, the U.S consumed 20.680 million barrels per day (3.2879×10^6 m3/d) of petroleum or 317 million US gallons per year (1.20×10^6 m3/a).[16] Thus, with the production capabilities of Valcent, it would only require 15,000 square metres (160,000 sq ft) of land to completely displace petroleum use in the U.S.
U.S. oil consumption of 20.680 million barrels per day would amount to 317 billion gallons per year, not 317 million. That's a factor of 1000 difference. After that I'm not sure where the numbers come from, but using the current and projected capacity reported by Valcent (33,000 - 150,000 gal/acre-year), it would require 2.1 to 9.6 million acres of land to completely displace U.S. petroleum consumption. That's about a million times more than the 160,000 sq ft stated in the article.
I also question the validity and source of the graph. It appears to be an original work and based on speculation and estimates.
Perhaps inclusion of algal biofuel from other countries, such as the Algal Biofuel Consortium in Cambridge, UK should be included too? Shuggyg ( talk) 15:06, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I can't find anything in this article about whether or not the fuel is the algae itself, or a by-product of the algae. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.30.235 ( talk) 22:48, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
It seems the fuel is a by product of the algae oil and the algae oil is a product of the algae. Essentially, the algae isn't the fuel.
A couple of things which aren't clear to myself are: As far as I'm aware, someone correct me if I'm wrong, the algae use or feed on sulphur and perhaps other minerals/nutrients are also taken up by the algae, therefore the need for a ecofootprint needs to be taken into account. Such an eco-footprint would determine whether the sulphur sources were offsetting the carbon gains or not!
The next concept which isn't clear or lacking, is the matter of what types of vehicles such algal fuel could be used within i.e. only specific vehicles manufactured specifically for this fuel? or are substantial costs associated with modifying a vehicle to run on algal based fuels? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eco impact ( talk • contribs) 12:40, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Algae oil is also used in combination with olive oil in food items. AnimeJanai ( talk) 23:31, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Why are there none included? I believe Licella, in Australia, is already producing algal oil for use in the marine industry? http://licella.info/index.php it certainly has been given a large governmental grant to do this Shuggyg ( talk) 16:18, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20100402-20573-2.html Algae master quantum science ..... "[Certain] water-dwelling algae are in effect highly miniaturised quantum computers... They have mastered the process of photosynthesis so well that they can convert sunlight into electrical energy with near-perfect efficiency." ..... "recent work by other researchers has documented that light-absorbing molecules in some photosynthetic proteins capture and transfer energy according to quantum-mechanical probability laws instead of classical laws at temperatures up to 180 degrees Kelvin. 'Where our study breaks new ground is that we observe the same quantum coherence at normal room temperature,' says Professor Curmi." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.61.39 ( talk) 21:12, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Can one include the yield of the different algae species and add more species ?. -- Mac ( talk) 10:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay, [4] table 6.1 names the culprits. Top producers are:
Species lipids (%dry weight) Scenedesmus dimorphus 16-40% Chlamydomonas rheinhardii 21% Chlorella vulgaris 14-22% Spirogyra sp. 11-21% Euglena gracilis 14-20% Prymnesium parvum 22-38%
-- 99.233.186.4 ( talk) 01:26, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
It is misleading to say that algae produces zero net CO2 emissions because this statement doesn't take into account the processing of the oil produced by the algae. Processes used to perform this tend to use heat and external chemicals that both consume energy and produce CO2 waste. Only if the energy produced by the algae is used exclusively for all processes related to the production of algal fuel would it be possible to say such a statement —Preceding unsigned comment added by Teilhardo ( talk • contribs) 00:28, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
Total solar energy reaching the earth is 1367 watts per square meter. Factoring out cosine of latitude and cosine of rotation and nighttime, you're left with about 240 watts per acre in the USA. Given the energy content of gasoline, this gives 211,000 gallons of gasoline per acre if you convert 100 percent of solar power into oil. Maybe someone can double check my math.
Photo synthesis is not that efficient, only 1 or 2 percent. It only uses a narrow part of the spectrum, for example. Just from basic energy and efficiency constraints, I do not believe it is possible to get more than about 1000 or 2000 gallons per acre, and that would really be pushing things to the limits of efficency and year-round production. DonPMitchell ( talk) 18:14, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Note that 342 W/m² is world average. Neglecting cloud cover, irradiation in the tropics and most of continental US (except Alaska) is greater than that. Further, the review article, Prospective of biodiesel production utilizing microalgae as the cell factories: A comprehensive discussion[www.academicjournals.org/ajb/PDF/pdf2010/8Mar/Verma%20et%20al.pdf predatory publisher], claims photosynthetic efficiency for micro-algae as 3..8%. Significantly, using irradiation of 342 W/m² as above, 8% efficiency would translate to an upper bound of 26.9L/m², or 28,800 US gal/acre per year. -- 99.233.186.4 ( talk) 22:47, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
The statement at the end of the lead section "any CO2 taken out of the atmosphere by the algae is returned when the biofuels are burned" may be incorrect IF the algal growth doesn't just take CO2 from the atmosphere. For example, algae grown in the ocean may draw on CO2 reserves sequestered in the ocean water. So I've requested a citation at that point (and will look into it myself). It may well be an order or two of magnitude *less* added CO2 than what burning fossils liberates, but I'm unconvinced that the algal fuel equation results in *no* net liberated CO2. Twang ( talk) 07:48, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Biohydrocarbon redirects to here. I don't really see any reason for that as there are other (biological) methods to make hydrocarbons(methane by anaerobic decay of biomass). By the way is biodiesel made from algea really hydrocarbons like real diesel and not esters? 83.188.246.187 ( talk) 22:41, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
I have added this "Further Reading":
Lane, Jim (18 April 2010).
"Salt Water: The Tangy Taste of Energy Freedom". Renewable Energy World. Retrieved 21 April 2010.
It has a list of projects in various countries that could be incorprated into the article. Sory I can't do it at present. dinghy ( talk) 12:58, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
Basic economic theory states that total cost = fixed cost + variable cost ; these enable you to scale production. For algae, http://iwawaterwiki .org/xwiki/bin/view/Articles/BiofuelfromAlage asserts that "The cost of production per kilogram reduces to roughly $0.47 and $0.60 for photobioreactors and raceways respectively, if the annual biomass production capacity is increased to 10,000 t." This contradicts unreferenced claims in the article, so I'm removing those claims --unless you can find a better reference? -- 99.233.186.4 ( talk) 12:57, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
[8] claims cost of food grade algae is $5000/tonne, and that biodiesel from algae "can never compete at oil prices under $800/bbl." This orders-of-magnitude discrepancy from the more optimistic estimates deserves careful analysis. -- 99.233.186.4 ( talk) 13:27, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
I propose to merge Green crude into this article. Green crude is a very short article originally created to promote a certain company. By its nature it is an algae fuel. Beagel ( talk) 11:02, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Support merge. Thomas Kluyver ( talk) 00:29, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
What is actually achieved? Somewhere on the internet it is written:
What is a better place to report actual results than in this article?
Hogne ( talk) 14:39, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
[9] Arlo James Barnes 06:48, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
I made this change as saying in the article 'incorrect please see another article' is not the correct way to tag dubious content. Either removed it or use an appropriate tag to indicate it is in dispute. I'm not sure what exactly is disputed here, the Chinese tallow article doesn't currently give figures. Perhaps it's because the Chinese tallow article says oil palms are the second best not Chinese tallow. However this article is apparently cited whereas I don't see anything in the Chines tallow article although I haven't looked in to the oil palm article Nil Einne ( talk) 22:11, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
There are two possible errors in the article.
One is where it is stated that the use of SVO requires an engine designed for low sulfur diesel. I believe that language indicating that SVO is suitable for such engine designs has been misconstrued into a false impression that such designs are required.
The second is where the relative yields of algae vs soil crops is mentioned. Grapeseed is listed where it is probably rapeseed(canola a variant) that is intended. 68.18.115.52 ( talk) 03:26, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
There is a discussion merging Algae jet fuel into Aviation_biofuel or this article. Beagel ( talk) 07:22, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
"5 Companies Making Fuel From Algae Now; Algae is now a burgeoning sector in biofuels with several high-profile start-ups. Here are 5 project leading the pack today." by Jeremy Jacquot Popular Mechanics
97.87.29.188 ( talk) 23:07, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
I think this needs to be added in. ScienceApe ( talk) 21:23, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
There was a reference under the Biodiesel to how only "small-scale" biodiesel production could supply enough fuel to replace world diesel consumption; I read over the ASP final report cited there (it is a big document, but I've read it before) and found no such suggestion anywhere...fixed it.---- — Preceding unsigned comment added by FarmerOnMars ( talk • contribs) 23:18, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Added this: Proviron has been working on a new type of reactor (using flat plates) which reduces the cost of algae cultivation. At AlgaePARC similar research is being conducted using 4 grow systems (1 open pond system and types of 3 closed systems). According to René Wijffels the current systems do not yet allow algae fuel to be produced competitively. However using new (closed) systems, and by scaling up the production it would be possible to reduce costs by 10X, upto a price of 0,4 € per kg of algae. [1]
perhaps some more references are useful — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.182.170.224 ( talk) 08:24, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
I have a financial COI with Honeywell in that they’ve recruited me to help them navigate through Wikipedia and COI Best Practices. I would like to suggest the following contributions in order to better inform Wikipedia's readers on green diesel or hydrogen-derived renewable diesel. User:King4057 ( EthicalWiki) 16:20, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
An impartial editor has reviewed the proposed edit(s) and asked the editor with a conflict of interest to go ahead and make the suggested changes. |
I would like to improve the section called "Hydrocracking to traditional transport fuels" as follows:
I also suggest we rename it "Green Diesel" (the consumer name) or Hydrogren-Derived Renewable Diesel (the scientific title) and add it to the list of algae-based fuel types mentioned in the second paragraph "bioethanol, biogasoline, biomethanol, green diesel..."
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I'm not seeing what the relevance of this is to algae fuel - the references discuss producing diesel from vegetable oils, not algae. SmartSE ( talk) 16:06, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
Part of an edit requested by an editor with a conflict of interest has been implemented. |
I'm giving it a second go and requesting feedback on adding the image (see right) Honeywell donated under the Jet Fuel section as well as adding the below Green Diesel summary (below). I took another look and it was a bit awkward doing a copy/paste from the other page, so I just re-worded it a bit so it made more sense. Corporate Minion 22:54, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Green Diesel section
|
---|
green diesel' (also known as renewable diesel, hydro-treated vegetable oil [1] or hydrogen-derived renewable diesel) [2] through a hydrocracking refinery process that breaks molecules down into shorter hydrocarbon chains used in diesel engines. [3] [1] It has the same chemical properties as petroleum-based diesel [1] meaning that it does not require new engines, pipelines or infrastructure to distribute and use. It has yet to be produced at a cost that is competitive with petroleum. [2] | Algae can be used to produce '
Under the "other" section, there is this strange note. I do not understand what the author intended, and so I'm not certain how to correct it. Can somebody please clarify/simplify? Thank you! 192.33.240.95 ( talk) 14:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC) "Section three of the 2006 alternative fuels act stated that when it is economically feasible to do so-75% per cent of all federal bodies and crown corporation will be motor vehicles."
This section needs to be shortened, a lot of it reads like a college students report on the topic. The subsections themselves are more like advertisements for the two companies outlined. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.135.210.88 ( talk) 17:41, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Although there are not many examples of algae fuels in fiction; Metal Gear 2:Solid Snake deals extensively and in a serious tone with the political ramifications of such technology. Other science subjects like wormholes have brief in fiction sections. I think it's worth noting pop culture seems to overwhelmingly propose that anyone who invents an oil substitute will just disappear into the shadowy world of tactical military espionage; which is rather discouraging. CensoredScribe ( talk) 14:46, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Feel free to chime in at the talk page for Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games on whether or not video games them selves and not just their instruction manuals should be considered suitable references. Trying to apply an academic referencing system made over a hundred years ago to a new medium which looks nothing like the pages of a book is kind of ridiculously outdated. CensoredScribe ( talk) 19:31, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Is there any evidence that the small-scale "commercial sales" cited have not been expensive loss-leaders for the companies involved to keep the research grants and venture capital coming? EllenCT ( talk) 03:53, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
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The "Nutrients" section seems to be a bit unnecessary. The information about the importance of fertilizers such as carbon dioxide, nitrogen and waste water can be much shortened and summarized into a few brief sentences and be included in the "Fuel Production" section. Nutrients required for algae growth are additional information for the algae fuel production, not the main issue to be dealt with. In this way, the whole article will get much more succinct and to the point. Junghaeyun ( talk) 17:51, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
It is stated that although algal biofuel does not produce any sulfur oxides or nitrous oxides, it still produces a reduced amount of carbon monoxide, unburned hydrocarbons, and reduced emission of other harmful pollutants. Although reduced in amount, these pollutants may still have potential risks of health and environment. While disadvantages of other types of fuels are clearly stated, the impacts of these pollutants that the algae fuel produces are not clearly stated enough. More about the potential health or environmental risks of using the algae fuel should be stated so that the neutral point of view can be maintained. Junghaeyun ( talk) 18:11, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
The "History" section contains a lot of information but most of them seem to be insignificant. The first part of the section explaining about how Harder and Von Witsch proposed microalgae as the potential source for fuel is the most important part. All the other historical applications of algal biofuels seem to be too much in amount for readers to read and know all of them. If this section mainly focuses on how the algal biofuel idea was proposed and started to be developed, it will get much clearer and simpler. Junghaeyun ( talk) 19:39, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
The last comment in the introduction states that Algenol, a Florida-based algae biofuels company, hoped to reach commercial-scale operations in 2014. Less than six months after the cited article was published, Florida Governor Rick Scott signed a bill repealing Florida's state mandate that consumer gasoline contain 10% ethanol, leading the CEO of Algenol, Paul Woods, to scrap plans to build a commercial-scale algae biofuels plant. [4] In 2015, Algenol's commercial demonstration module in Ft. Myer's Florida began providing ethanol biofuel to Protec Fuel for distribution in Florida. I believe this reference to Algenol in the introduction needs to be removed or changed due to the ambiguity of it's commercial scale at the present time. [5] Jpg142zg ( talk) 20:58, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
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