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I am seriously considering changing his title to "King of the English". Him not ruling over all of present-day England does not mean he still wasn't King of Enland back then. This is reflected in the list of English monarchs page, where he is listed. The Vikings took back Northumbria during the reign of Edmund but that doesn't mean he still wasn't King of England. Moreso, I've seen a number of coins of Alfred with the title "Rex Anglo" on them and "Rex Anglorum" also appears on charters during his reign as well. The Royal Mint, the oldest company in the UK, was actually established the same year that Alfred took back London in 886 and considers him, along with the The Royal Family website, an English king. Faren29 ( talk) 22:34, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Hi there,
Just informing on some proposed changes that I plan to make to the page under the ‘880s’ subheading. I will attach my changed paragraphs underneath and run you through the changes that I have made. In the first paragraph, I have revised the date from 880 to 878 and referenced it, added the Alfredian effects of the treaty to the sentence on neutralising Guthrum and widened the point on Viking migration and settlement as the previous sentence was somewhat vague. I have also narrowed the date range from 878-892 to 878-885 as a more focused period for Viking migration whilst still mentioning the return in 892.
In the second paragraph, I have tidied up the point on naval conflict and referenced this to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. I have also slightly changed the point on Alfred’s naval conflict as the source material states “taken” rather than “destroyed.”
Thanks:
‘With the signing of the Treaty of Alfred and Guthrum in 878[1], Guthrum’s people began settling in East Anglia, Guthrum was neutralised as a threat and Alfred’s standing amongst the English people was enhanced.[2] During the lull in the wake of Alfred’s pacification of Guthrum, Viking forces in England dissipated with some settling in East Anglia whilst others sailed to Frankia on the mainland. Between this point and 885 there was a steady stream of Viking forces travelling to Frankia and Ghent before the return of the Viking threat in 892.[3]
Some conflict persisted with local raids on the coast of Wessex throughout the 880s, notably in 882 in which the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle details Alfred’s naval conflict with four Viking ships, of which the Chronicle states he took two.[4] This was one of four sea battles recorded in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, three of which involved Alfred.[5] Similar small skirmishes with independent Viking raiders would have occurred for much of the period as they had for decades.[6]’
(I shall tidy up the referencing before editing.)
[1] Anglo Saxon Chronicle, AD. 878
[2] Keynes in A Companion to Alfred the Great, p. 22.
[3] Woodruff, The life and times of Alfred the Great, p. 176, Keynes, Simon; Lapidge, Michael (1983). Alfred the Great, Asser's Life of King Alfred and other contemporary sources. Harmondsworth, England: Penguin. ISBN 0-14-044409-2.
[4] Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, AD, 882.
[5] Abels, Richard (1998). Alfred the Great: War, Kingship and Culture in Anglo-Saxon England. Longman. ISBN 978-0-582-04047-2.
[6] Smyth, Alfred P. (1995). King Alfred the Great. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-822989-5. Alfredcerdicing ( talk) 12:03, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
Two editors are insisting on describing Alfred as King of the English. The only source given is a book by John Cannon, a specialist on the 18th century, and Ralph A. Griffiths, a Tudor specialist. No historian of the Anglo-Saxon period gives him this title. Asser is quoted in th article as describing him as King of the Anglo-Saxons. Ditto Patrick Wormald in ODNB on Alfred, and Richard Abels in the standard biography p. 9. Sarah Foot in her biography of Æthelstan p. 12 says tha Edward inherited the kingdom of the Anglo-Saxons from Alfred. Simon Keynes has a chapter heading 'Edward, King of the Anglo-Saxons' in Higham and Hill eds, Edward the Elder. This is the title universally accepted by experts on the period. Dudley Miles ( talk) 10:20, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
From what I know of the issues here, some early kings used the titles King of England, King of the English and King of the Anglo-Saxons interchangably, it could be a bit ahistorical to treat these titles as fundamentally different. There is some dispute about who was the first King of England, I feel inclined to give it to Alfred, for reasons I could go into, but it may not be worth going to the barricades over this issue. PatGallacher ( talk) 17:39, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
The main image has been changed frequently, often to a later portrait. It's invariably changed back with an edit summary that we prefer a contemporary image. (I've just done that myself.) However, I'm not seeing anything in Talk about that, or in any of our MOS pages. Is there something I'm missing? Should we finally have "the talk" and make it a consensus decision? Does it really matter? Woodroar ( talk) 04:27, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
Article badly needs a specific separate treatment of the works credited to Alfred, given with their generally accepted titles. If it's not too long, there should also be a list of the English editions of them. If it is too long, the list should be on Wikisource but still available somewhere via this article. — LlywelynII 21:02, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Alfred the Great article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2Auto-archiving period: 180 days
![]() |
![]() | Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Alfred the Great is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive. | |||||||||
|
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I am seriously considering changing his title to "King of the English". Him not ruling over all of present-day England does not mean he still wasn't King of Enland back then. This is reflected in the list of English monarchs page, where he is listed. The Vikings took back Northumbria during the reign of Edmund but that doesn't mean he still wasn't King of England. Moreso, I've seen a number of coins of Alfred with the title "Rex Anglo" on them and "Rex Anglorum" also appears on charters during his reign as well. The Royal Mint, the oldest company in the UK, was actually established the same year that Alfred took back London in 886 and considers him, along with the The Royal Family website, an English king. Faren29 ( talk) 22:34, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Hi there,
Just informing on some proposed changes that I plan to make to the page under the ‘880s’ subheading. I will attach my changed paragraphs underneath and run you through the changes that I have made. In the first paragraph, I have revised the date from 880 to 878 and referenced it, added the Alfredian effects of the treaty to the sentence on neutralising Guthrum and widened the point on Viking migration and settlement as the previous sentence was somewhat vague. I have also narrowed the date range from 878-892 to 878-885 as a more focused period for Viking migration whilst still mentioning the return in 892.
In the second paragraph, I have tidied up the point on naval conflict and referenced this to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. I have also slightly changed the point on Alfred’s naval conflict as the source material states “taken” rather than “destroyed.”
Thanks:
‘With the signing of the Treaty of Alfred and Guthrum in 878[1], Guthrum’s people began settling in East Anglia, Guthrum was neutralised as a threat and Alfred’s standing amongst the English people was enhanced.[2] During the lull in the wake of Alfred’s pacification of Guthrum, Viking forces in England dissipated with some settling in East Anglia whilst others sailed to Frankia on the mainland. Between this point and 885 there was a steady stream of Viking forces travelling to Frankia and Ghent before the return of the Viking threat in 892.[3]
Some conflict persisted with local raids on the coast of Wessex throughout the 880s, notably in 882 in which the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle details Alfred’s naval conflict with four Viking ships, of which the Chronicle states he took two.[4] This was one of four sea battles recorded in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, three of which involved Alfred.[5] Similar small skirmishes with independent Viking raiders would have occurred for much of the period as they had for decades.[6]’
(I shall tidy up the referencing before editing.)
[1] Anglo Saxon Chronicle, AD. 878
[2] Keynes in A Companion to Alfred the Great, p. 22.
[3] Woodruff, The life and times of Alfred the Great, p. 176, Keynes, Simon; Lapidge, Michael (1983). Alfred the Great, Asser's Life of King Alfred and other contemporary sources. Harmondsworth, England: Penguin. ISBN 0-14-044409-2.
[4] Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, AD, 882.
[5] Abels, Richard (1998). Alfred the Great: War, Kingship and Culture in Anglo-Saxon England. Longman. ISBN 978-0-582-04047-2.
[6] Smyth, Alfred P. (1995). King Alfred the Great. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-822989-5. Alfredcerdicing ( talk) 12:03, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
Two editors are insisting on describing Alfred as King of the English. The only source given is a book by John Cannon, a specialist on the 18th century, and Ralph A. Griffiths, a Tudor specialist. No historian of the Anglo-Saxon period gives him this title. Asser is quoted in th article as describing him as King of the Anglo-Saxons. Ditto Patrick Wormald in ODNB on Alfred, and Richard Abels in the standard biography p. 9. Sarah Foot in her biography of Æthelstan p. 12 says tha Edward inherited the kingdom of the Anglo-Saxons from Alfred. Simon Keynes has a chapter heading 'Edward, King of the Anglo-Saxons' in Higham and Hill eds, Edward the Elder. This is the title universally accepted by experts on the period. Dudley Miles ( talk) 10:20, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
From what I know of the issues here, some early kings used the titles King of England, King of the English and King of the Anglo-Saxons interchangably, it could be a bit ahistorical to treat these titles as fundamentally different. There is some dispute about who was the first King of England, I feel inclined to give it to Alfred, for reasons I could go into, but it may not be worth going to the barricades over this issue. PatGallacher ( talk) 17:39, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
The main image has been changed frequently, often to a later portrait. It's invariably changed back with an edit summary that we prefer a contemporary image. (I've just done that myself.) However, I'm not seeing anything in Talk about that, or in any of our MOS pages. Is there something I'm missing? Should we finally have "the talk" and make it a consensus decision? Does it really matter? Woodroar ( talk) 04:27, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
Article badly needs a specific separate treatment of the works credited to Alfred, given with their generally accepted titles. If it's not too long, there should also be a list of the English editions of them. If it is too long, the list should be on Wikisource but still available somewhere via this article. — LlywelynII 21:02, 15 June 2024 (UTC)