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Recommended for deletion, on grounds of being a vanity article.
The reference is to a different T V Smith to the one linked to ! -- Beardo 06:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure why it would be recommended that this page be deleted. De Grazia is an influential and significant 20th century intellectual. On what grounds is it construed that this article is a "vanity article"?-- BenJonson 22:41, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
One reason to classify this bio entry a "vanity article" is the fact that it was almost certainly written by the subject and uploaded initially by his wife, Ami de Grazia. -- Phaedrus7 03:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I have added material about my father that I believe to be impartial and POV-neutral. We were very distant, and he had no time for us. I suspect that Wikipedia is "centric," that is, unless the material has appeared before in another authoritative publication, such as Encyclopedia Britannica, they really don't feel that it merits appearing in Wikipedia. "Wikicentric" really means nothing in Wikipedia is original, everything is derivative, and if you could find original material, it would be concerning the presentation of material (publishing) to the public by the public, which is what Wikipedia does and is exactly an aspect that my father would have been interested and involved in as a Sociologist and Political Scientist. Do you see what I mean?
It seems like the article is giving two names for de Grazia's present wife. Which one should stay in the article? We should have one name throughout the article. Ami appears to be a nickname, so I'd like to suggest Anne Marie.-- Sethacus 17:46, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I remember receiving a letter from Ami (the French spelling) addressed to Anne Marie von Hueber. Ami, or Madame Anne-Marie deGrazia, is from Alsace-Lorraine, a Franco-German region that is bilingual. I've learned elsewhere that it was one of the Roman "marches," and she confirmed that the Jews of the area pre-date many or most of the German inhabitants. This was a result of the Diaspora, or the expulsion of the Jews from Palestine, and their subsequent migration up the Danube and then down the Rhine where they settled near enough to the Roman cities to engage in commerce, but far enough from Rome to avoid being bothered by Roman authorities and affected by the politics of that place. Germans were not allowed on the Gallic side of the Rhine during Roman times, and those settled in Alsace may be the descendants of the dozens of tribes the entered Roman-governed territories during the period known as the Great Migrations to German historians. The remains of the Roman rule of Europe will be with us forever, however dysfunctional they are in effect. (
Jagtig (
talk)
16:55, 5 August 2015 (UTC))
Note that de Grazia was one of the first to do computer-based social network analysis -- Facebook in 1953. "In 1953-4, Alfred de Grazia, who was then Executive Officer of the Committee for Research in Social Science and Associate Professor of Political Science at Stanford University, submitted a proposal to the Department of State to write a manual that would help train federal employees assigned to culturally diverse countries around the world..." See http://www.grazian-archive.com/governing/Elite/F_34.html
The American Behavioral Scientist, which De Grazia founded, was the first journal of Sage Publications http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAGE_Publications. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jubois ( talk • contribs) 17:19, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
While it appears that de Grazia is notable for his early works, his 'scientific' work seems rather dubious. Does it really merit more than a brief mention here?-- Michig 09:51, 30 September 2007 (UTC) And is there any notability whatsoever to his plays?-- Michig 09:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
The site for the film in question (The Gene of Hope) is available through the link provided in the article User:Amideg Amideg ( talk) 18:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
We are beginning the process of vetting and editing this article to conform with Wikipedia standards. Part of this was removing wholesale a lot of material that defied either WP:V, WP:NPOV, or WP:NOR. The other part is tagging the article so we can begin the work of cleanup. Please comment if you think this effort is ill-founded. ScienceApologist ( talk) 18:19, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
18:00 19 September, 2008 In its full version before the abusive deletions, this article was admitted to the Biography and Chicago portals, supported by the "Government and Politics" work group and the "Chicago" work group, and given a good rating by both. To delete material which is of interest to these groups is nothing less than sabotaging the article and hurting the purpose of the Wikipedia project. To delete a relevant external link (about University of the New World) and then claim that the proposition is not substantiated is also sabotage. To entirely delete information about the latest ideas in political science of an important political scientist of his generation is depriving the community at large and the political science community of information to wich it is entitled to, whether it agrees with these ideas or not. If an article about the founder of The American Behavioral Scientist (among other things) is supposed to be a vanity article, the Wikipedia project suffers more than the reputation of the subject of the article. These deletions seem at least in part malicious and may be motivated by disageement with some of the subject s ideas and positions. In which case, the editors risk disqualifying themselves for the very job they are supposed to be doing. Amideg - main author 18:15 19 September 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amideg ( talk • contribs) 15:19, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Did they actually do any psychological operations in Germany? There must be umpteen accounts of the push through Germany and if de Grazia played this role a reference could be found.
Itsmejudith (
talk)
19:34, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Okay, here's my chance. PsyOps was something done by specialists trained in the U.S. and brought in at some point after D-Day. My father Alfred Joseph deGrazia was with Generals Patton and Clark and the 3rd Army, now stationed in South Carolina, from the landing in Morocco to, through and after the Battle of the Bulge in France. His job was to go before the tanks in a jeep, test for or detect enemy presence, pick targets and scout for enemy anti-tank emplacements and enemy tanks. In France, all heck broke loose when the Tiger tanks were brought to the front by the Germans. They weren't any better than the Soviet T-34's, but they made the American Sherman tanks look like flimsy beer cans with their superior armor and artillery. Their powerful guns could easily penetrate Sherman tank armor, and their gun sites were better, too. My father was tearing around France in a tiny Jeep hunting for German tanks for most of 1943-44. You must understand tank warfare in Europe to understand his job. The tanks broke up into single, double and sometimes triple tank units accompanied by platoons of infantry, and hunted for the enemy in an attempt to engage them. When the enemy was detected, the range was closed to about a mile and the tanks would duel at that distance until friend or foe was knocked out. The winner of the tank duel would, with their infantry accompaniment, close on the enemy on finish them off. Now, the Tiger tanks won the tank duels disproportionately, and American and British losses were terrible; that is, until the Sherman tanks were retrofitted with heavier cannon. Then, the advantage was lost, and the German Mouse tank, even larger and more heavily armored, never was produced in quantities that would have an impact on the fighting.
As to the Psychological Warfare part of his career, I would suggest the following from personal experience. Whey your duties include scouting out the enemy in areas the enemy is occupying, that job includes making contacts with the locals. At that point, you learn of the deeds of the enemy where the local population is concerned, as well as who is ready to come over, especially who of the community's leadership will join you. The pursuit of this process and all related matters are studied in the Psychological Warfare Department, simply as a matter of classification. There is no separate Contact with Those Occupied Bureau in the Department of Defense. Anyway, that was my experience in Europe; it appeared that my father's job was to encourage those liberated from Nazi control to adopt governments favorable to the Allies, even if they had been Fascists, before. If he committed a crime by doing so, it was through discouraging Communist efforts to fill the power vacuum. At this time, the Soviet Union was sending agents to Greece and Italy through their own liberated territories, the so-called Eastern Block, or Warsaw Pact nations.
I would say that the propagandists that should be watched and scorned are those who say that Israel is strictly a European colonial state because there was no Holocaust, not the Americans and Britons who saw the results of the Holocaust. One wrong does not justify another, but you cannot deny the existence of the death camps, or the fact that my father and others visited them in the days after the Americans occupied the environs. {{
Jagtig (
talk)
17:23, 5 August 2015 (UTC)}}
Michael Polanyi, "The growth of science in society", Minerva Volume 5, Number 4 / June, 1967 DOI 10.1007/BF01096782 Pages 533-545. I haven't got access to the full text at the moment, but it turned up when googling for de Grazia and American Behavioral Scientist. Polanyi was a very interesting philosopher of science. The article discusses the Velikovsky affair. I expect it argues that science needs to make its philosophical underpinning more explicit if it is to fight off pseudoscientific claims. Whatever, it may be a source for de Grazia's editorship of the journal, if nothing else. Itsmejudith ( talk) 19:50, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Possible sources for this article:
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:01, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:47, 21 September 2008 (UTC)Part of the modern-day appeal of the presidency is the belief that the office has natural qualities of coherence, unity, harmony, and rationality. Yet Alfred de Grazia, writing in 1965, reminded us that the president is "a Congress with a skin thrown over him" (p. 72). There is much insight in his observation. We see the fragmentation, divisions, and interests fighting for control within the legislative branch. Identical forces are at work in the executive branch, but they are rarely visible. We imagine a coherence and rationality in the executive branch that do not exist. Alfred de Grazia wrote from a conservative viewpoint, providing a needed check against the breathless exaltation of presidential power.
In 1965, Alfred de Grazia described the American presidency as "the focus of the anxious crowd of the age."(40) The modern chief executive has had to operate in a climate of cultural expectations molded around the hope for inspirational leadership. As successive presidents accommodated their political styles to such aspirations, America was also fighting the cold war. Confronted by a totalitarian threat, its ideological enemies led by dictators who themselves promoted the myth of heroic leadership--a Stalin or a Mao, a Khruschev or a Ho Chi Minh--how might democratic America respond? Its own leaders had to be equal to the challenge.
Not all who take part in politics are rulers, nor are all those interested in rule the ruling class. An American political scientist, Alfred de Grazia, tried to express this phenomenon by stating that some people comprise the ruling class and many more are interested in its workings; he gave the name of politists to the latter. Now, interest in affairs political varies from place to place and epoch to epoch, and the influence that such an interest has on rule varies comparably. In the Greek polis the ruling minority included merely the citizens who gathered at the marketplace and transacted their affairs; the many were the strangers, the peasants and the slaves. Mosca cites this example without realizing that, although the citizens of Athens were doubtless a minority of the inhabitants, they were not organized. They did have laws and they followed not only laws but rules of good behavior, of etiquette, of morals and of good taste. But so did, and do, all other inhabitants of Athens or anywhere else. If we were to follow the thought of Alfred de Grazia, we would say that the rulers of Athens were a minority of that minority comprising the citizens, and that the rest of that minority comprised politists. Actually, his principle is less impressive than it seems at first; most people love art, but this does not mean that they are artists or even art experts. The aficionades of politics, in this sense, are those who spend their lives in faux ménage with politics but without marrying it: philosophers, political scientists, sociologists and writers. But politists are not merely the newspaper writers but also the newspapers readers. The truth is that only a few rule a country, regardless of the number of observers, of voyeurs, of writers of letters-to-the-editor, or even of voters.
Removing sentence in Quantavolution. Per WP:BLP. The one source here says
Alfred de Grazia, who probably more than anyone helped to make Velikovskianism respectable in the 1960s, has
now published a whole series of books expounding catastrophist notions that differ in marked detail from Velikovsky’s; and de Grazia has also published memoirs 9 in which Velikovsky is cut down to human size (thereby making de Grazia very much persona non grata with his
erstwhile companions at KRONOS).
Thus, this one source is used as WP:SYNTH. This is the only mention of the name Grazia in the document according to search. And, it doesn't say he was defending V's work, either. Nor does it say that it was a version of V's ideas, but that it "differed markedly." Anyway, it's contentious, so put it back in with correction, no SYNTH, and with sources for what is being said. I removed the source itself, as it was merely used this way.
Now I am sure that Velikovskianism is bunk- I was sneering at it long before I came to WP. But this is not kosher. —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:06, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
I've cut a lot of unsourced WP:BLP material and weasel-wording out of the article. If we're going to do a BLP right, we need to start with sourced material. I've also cut the list of works he's written; anything notable can be worked into the article text, rather than a sprawling list of everything he's written.
Finally, this section of reviews doesn't really belong in the article as-written, but could be a good source for citations in the article text itself. I've moved it from the article page to here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HandThatFeeds ( talk • contribs) 14:01, September 30, 2009
[For the avoidance of further confusion, the merge was nominated by User:Dbachmann in this edit, although they have made no comment here. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 04:55, 3 October 2009 (UTC) ]
Wait and See It was proposed by another editor that this article be merged with
Velikovskyism. I support that proposal.
Simonm223 (
talk)
16:07, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
In my opinion, Simonm223's proposal verges on the vexacious. He's an editor out to clamp down on pseudoscience within wikipedia, and as such he has this article in his sights. However whilst de Grazia did take an interest in Velikovsky, it is only a small part of his output as an academic, as the user posting from 67.202.96.13 and Phaedrus7 have explained. I do not feel it would be appropriate to merge the article as he proposes.---- feline1 ( talk) 22:26, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
regarding the "vexacious" comment form Feline1 ( talk · contribs) above: this isn't about pseudoscience or no pseudoscience, it is about straightforward Wikipedia:Notability. If Velikovskyism is "only a small part of [Garzia's] [notable] output as an academic", then the burden is on you to establish notability. If you cannot do that, you have no business opposing a merger. I do not see any evidence of "significant coverage in independent third party publications". If there is such coverage, kindly provide the citations. If there isn't, there is no way this can remain a standalone article. It's as simple as that, and accusations of bias in other editors is not going to take away the fact that if you want to keep the article, the burden of establishing notability lies with you. I do not see "wrote some books that got reviewed" under WP:AUTHOR. Instead, you must establish a reasonable claim that Garzia either
the closest we get to this at present would seem to be "has created a collective body of work that has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews."
So, where are the "multiple periodical articles or reviews" that establish the notability of Garzia's body of work? They certainly do not figure in the current revision of the article. If they cannot be produced, this article cannot be maintained. -- dab (𒁳) 12:20, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
"Velikovskyism" itself, does not appear notable, let alone associated with anyone, and I can find no reliable sources that help. Grazia is notable in his own right for "The Velikovsky Affair". Just because his subject is Velikovsky does not diminish his notability. Several other examples of de Grazia's notability have been established by others here (eg. WP:PROF and the subject of a section in a book). Reviews of de Grazia's books are not a problem. See for example:
Someone else can look up the details, and look for more. 67.202.96.13 ( talk) 14:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Itsmejudith, you are going out of your way to torture WP:PROF/ WP:AUTHOR into including de Grazia. So de Grazia founded the ABS journal in 1957, under a different name. That journal was later acquired by a notable publisher and can now be considered a notable academic journal. There is no evidence that the journal was anything of the kind while de Grazia edited it. In fact, there is every indication that de Grazia is a complete crank with no understanding of the basic concept of "science" (as the Skeptical Inquirer review notes) and arguing WP:PROF notability would in fact defeat the entire purpose of that guideline. -- dab (𒁳) 08:56, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
In response to a request for a quote from Ted Morgan's Literary Outlaw: The Life and Times of William S. Burroughs (held by over 900 libraries worldwide) supporting the citation in the de Grazia entry, here is the passage on pp. 453-454 (demarcating the book's line lengths with "/" and paragraphs with "¶") concerning de Grazia's University of the New World in Switzerland:
Begin passage/quote:
In October 1971 Burroughs was offered a teaching appointment in
Switzerland. Al de Grazia, a political scientist and the brother of Ed de
Grazia, who had handled the Naked Lunch obscenity trial for Grove
Press, had founded the University of the New World in the Alpine village
of Haute-Nendaz. It was intended as an alternative to the over-structured
American colleges, where young people could learn in an untrammeled
spirit of inquiry, without regulations or deans' offices. Instead of classes,
there were "studios" and "rapport groups." The students wore T-shirts
that said, "No classes, no grades, no exams." They could have added,
"No tuition," since very few of them were paid up.
Al de Grazia had hit on the novel scheme of printing his own currency,
with bills called Cows, since they had a picture of a heifer on both sides.
"On the first business day of each month," it was stated on the bills, "the
University will pay to the bearer, in exchange for this coupon, its face
value in Swiss francs. A 2% premium will be added. Not valid unless
stamped with official University of the New World seal." There was,
however, some resistance on the part of local shopkeepers to accepting
Cows as legal tender.
Burroughs was looking forward to three months of light teaching in
the clean mountain air. The brochure showed a lovely campus of Swiss
chalets nestled in pine groves at 4,000 feet, with mountain peaks in the
background. But when he took a taxi at the train station and asked for
the University of the New World, he was taken to a broken-down shack
in the middle of a field. No one seemed to be around. He walked to the
village and found a hotel, where a room had been reserved in his name.
At least he had a roof over his head. But where was everybody? He
finally ran into a couple of students who clued him in.
The school had attracted the drifters and dropouts on the international
hippie circuit, and the prim Swiss were up in arms over the open use of
drugs in their little town. In addition, some black musicians from the
"music studio" had begun dating local girls, a practice that was frowned
on by the elders. Burroughs saw the University of the New World dis-
integrating before his eyes. He knew he would not be paid, and he hoped
he would not get stuck with the bill at the Hotel Montcalm, where he
had been put up. If he got his fare back to London it would be a miracle.
What a mess! As for the clean mountain air, after London, it had inca-
pacitated him with a racking cough. The nearest drugstore was fifteen
miles away, but he managed to get a batch of codeine pills and took to
his bed with a pile of science fiction novels.
When he felt better he gave a couple of lectures. But stupidity was
rampant among the students. "Uhhh," one asked, "the heat in the ra-
daitors, where does it come from?" Another remarked that Tangier must
be very hot because it was in Africa, while a third asserted that big planes
were safer than small planes because they were bigger. My Gawd, thought
Burroughs, this university is pas sérieux. He was practically the only
teacher who had shown up. The instructor who was supposed to teach
the film course had taken off with the only projector.
For once, Burroughs was genuinely glad to get back to London. Any-
thing was better than this madness with the hippies and the Cows. And
yet he continued to feel the need to move, and thought about Afghanistan
and southern Morocco. He had a conversation with his imaginary god-
father:
"My books aren't selling and soon I shall have no money. What shall
I do?"
We, his children and wife, lived in Princeton near to the infamous Prospect Avenue eating clubs; in fact, our first house in Princeton had been the home of the Colonial Club, and the clubbies returned once to steal a Picasso painting off my parents' bedroom wall. Now, if you want to see what life is like at a latter-day university, read this report made for the benefit of a contact I have in the FBI. You will see that coke (cocaine) is a primary mover of all things, great and small, and that Tesla physics, just the kind of thing my father would have fostered, is the second most important thing in the world. Unfortunately, the high-voltage physics can be lethal and weaponized, and you will see from the reading that the results are tragic, beyond belief. http://www.princetonweb.org/fbi.pdf {{ Jagtig ( talk) 17:38, 5 August 2015 (UTC)}}
End passage/quote.
Make use of this text as needed. Additional information may be gleaned from the Velikovsky Encyclopedia and a google.com search on <grazia "university of the new world">, although apparently the text for Cosmic Heretics containing two pages on the subject is no longer available. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 18:24, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Even more reviews of de Grazia's books (which were removed from his article):
So which notability criteria are we going to claim he fails now? 67.202.96.13 ( talk) 19:31, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
A few points:
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 01:56, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Can't have it both ways. Either we first come to a consensus about whether the article goes or stays, and then work on it. Or we just work on it.
Simon, could you say what you didn't like about my changes you reverted? They responded to comments made above here. Itsmejudith ( talk) 17:30, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Itsmejudith ( talk · contribs) has recently made a whole bunch of edits. Now some of these I think are harmful to the NPoV of the article. Others may in fact point to notability of the subject. Problem is that so much has been changed that going back and sorting out viable references, pov affecting changes, etc. will take some time. Please slow your edits down a bit so that other editors can assess. It would be a shame if somebody came along, saw mass changes and reverted everything if there is, in fact, valid references in that. Simonm223 ( talk) 17:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
De Grazia's interest in Velikovsky's ideas extends beyond the two books The Velikovsky Affair (1966) and Cosmic Heretics (1984). In 1968, de Grazia founded and became the first president of an independent organization whose purpose was to research and promote Velikovsky's ideas. This organization was the Foundation for Studies in Modern Science whose history is recounted in Cosmic Heretics, pp. 213-229, in Chapter 12: "The Third World of Science". In addition to de Grazia, the Board of Trustees was comprised of Richard P. Kramer, Livio Stecchini, Ralph Juergens (co-author/editor, The Velikovsky Affair), Horace Kallen, Harry H. Hess, A. Bruce Mainwaring (presently a Trustee of the University of Pennsylvania), John Holbrook, Jr., Robert C. Stephanos (founded the Comyns Beaumont Society in 1975), and Warner Sizemore (co-founder of Kronos in 1974). The foundation was defunct by 1972, but not for a lack of trying and in part due to Velikovsky's behind the scenes meddling. Contrary to my comment yesterday, content in Cosmic Heretics can be accessed via google.com searches using well-chosen key words/phrases. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 18:34, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Do we have consensus that Henry H. Bauer, Beyond Velikovsky 1984 University of Illinois is an excellent source for this article (as long as it remains in existence) and indeed for all Velikovsky related articles? Itsmejudith ( talk) 11:11, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Bauer's book (held by over 550 libraries) is very authoritative with respect to Velikovsky and the reviews in the mainstream literature were uniformly positive. However, it should be kept in mind that de Grazia does not figure prominently in the book and, except for minor additions to the text immediately prior to publication, the manuscript was completed by 1979 before de Grazia's "Quantavolution" book series was published in the early 1980s. Bauer's take on de Grazia vis a vis Velikovsky is best monitored in his review of Cosmic Heretics in Summer 1985 Skeptical Inquirer. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 17:23, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
As mentioned above, de Grazia's academic career is touched upon in Rebecca S. Lowen. Creating the Cold War University: The Transformation of Stanford. Berkeley and Los Angeles: University of California Press, 1997.
I think we could usefully have something like the following:
"In 1952 de Grazia was appointed director of the Committee for Research in the Social Sciences at Stanford University. The appointment was supported by a Ford Foundation grant. Lowen (1997) described him as "a political scientist deeply committed to scientizing his disciplin and promoting studies of political behavior". In 1955 he was turned down for tenure at Stanford.
Please discuss. You can see the full text in google books - there's a link above here. The context for Lowen's mention of deG is that she argues that during the Cold War there was pressure in Stanford to curtail the activities even of dispassionate social scientists, if they were not actively promoting an anti-communist agenda. She casts deG as one of those social scientists, which is consistent with what we glean from other sources about his academic work in this period. Her book is an academic one but I haven't looked to see how it was received.
If this article is to stay (how long will the merge discussion stay open?) then we need detail of the universities where he worked. Itsmejudith ( talk) 11:58, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Mark Solovey "Rethinking the Politics–Patronage–Social Science Nexus" Social Studies of Science 31/2(April 2001) 171–206 lists de Grazia as having been involved in the design of Project Camelot, but then becoming unhappy with it.
In a footnote, he says:
Alfred de Grazia is quoted at length in Gideon Sjoberg, ‘Project Camelot: Selected Reactions and Personal Reflections’, in Sjoberg (ed.), Ethics, Politics, and Social Research (Cambridge, MA: Schenkman Publishing Co., 1967), 141–61, at 143–45.
I would think this is more material that should be reflected in the article. Itsmejudith ( talk) 12:24, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Discussion on the Fringe Theories Noticeboard. You will see I don't have a hidden agenda to promote the guy's views - unless you think there is a very deep conspiracy indeed here. My memory was poor; I thought I alerted ScienceApologist but it was the other way round. Now I have read more, I think the subject does meet WP:PROF. Shows how a cursory glance can be wrong. Itsmejudith ( talk)
“ | The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones. | ” |
See Talk item no. 3 above about de Grazia's wives. His current wife, at least no. 3, is Ami de Grazia, the former Anne-Marie Hueber, a French novelist, and editor of early versions of this entry. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 23:43, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
We have a citation needed tag on the journal being renamed and acquired by Sage. Sage's own catalogue shows that it is published by them today; that's trivial. The contents pages (on Sage's website) show, in various article titles, that it was ABS in the early 1960s, and although the contents from the first edition are available they do not indicate the journal name. Can we find out from some RS or other when it was renamed and when acquired by Sage? Itsmejudith ( talk) 10:00, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Do we have any third-party sources (other than mere catalogue entries) demonstrating the noteworthiness of any of the following points:
Otherwise I would suggest (per WP:DUE) reducing coverage of it to a mere parenthetical note mentioning that he founded it (with source), in the existing mention of it in 'Support for Velikovsky'. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 03:49, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Since the entry treats de Grazia's early 1970s experimental University of the New World in Switzerland, perhaps a fuller appreciation of the man might be gleaned from a knowledge of his February 20, 1980, proposal to the Open University at the University of Maryland for a two year pilot program in a new Institute of Quantavolution, which de Grazia presents in his The Burning of Troy, Chapter 29, "I.Q.: A University Program". The proposal was turned down; but no one can justifiably dismiss de Grazia for being "half vast" and the proposal establishes his bona fides in writing grant proposals. Regrettably, there is no third-party source for this initiative. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 18:06, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
To answer Hrafn's query: Although I was not personally present at the University of Maryland presentation on Feb. 20, 1980, De Grazia and I met over cocktails later that afternoon in the bar at The Capitol Hilton on Sixteenth Street, N.W., in Washington, D.C., where he told me all about the meeting and indicated that I could have a position on the faculty. In Cosmic Heretics, Chapter 15: "The Knowledge Industry", pp. 303-305, De Grazia describes a similar, unsuccessful proposal October 29, 1973, for a summer program at New York University, his home base. Cosmic Heretics is quite an autobiographical, if very non-linear, presentation in which De Grazia reveals many details about his personal life, including his "philandering" (p. 108), and his life with wife number two, Nina Mavridis (pp. 132-3 in Ch. 8; pp. 322-5 in Ch. 15) whom he met in New York in 1967, and wife number three (and currently), Anne Marie Hueber (p. 329 in Ch. 15) whom he met on Naxos in early 1970s while married to Mavridis and married in 1982. Along the way in Cosmic Heretics, De Grazia confesses to having spent a mere eight months over a twevle year period on mainstream professional activities, the rest of the time having been devoted to various Velikovskian cum quantavolution projects. Fortunately, De Grazia has uploaded a concordance to his quantavolution publications which permits easy searching. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 18:34, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
Regarding DeGrazia's tenure as editor of ABS, according to Who's Who in America, 37th edition, 1972-1973, p. 772, it extended from 1957 to 1966. Granting DeGrazia's credulity with respect to Quantavolution as a valid rival to mainstream science, he knew how to write a professionally competent proposal which would have stood a good chance of acceptance were its subject institutionally acceptable. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 23:13, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 03:59, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
I reverted these as they would discussion here. Amideg, you must remember that you have a conflict of interest. If you edit at all you must do so with the greatest caution and not promote your own/your husband's interests. Here are my thoughts:
Itsmejudith ( talk) 09:46, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
This is Amideg. On December 1st, 2009 I reinstated several paragraphs of the article, adding new and strong references. Everything I added was deleted by ItsmeJudith less than half an hour later, making it impossible for anybody to judge my additions. What is very strange and puzzling, is that there is no longer any trace of the changes I made, nor of the references, nor of ItsmeJudith's deletions on the discussion page. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? I would also like to correct the ridiculous assertions of Phaedrus7 about Alfred de Grazia's "philandering." Alfred de Grazia divorced Nina Mavridis in 1974 and met Anne-Marie Hueber de Grazia in 1977. The fact that Phaedrus7 should even bring up something like this in an attempt to attack Alfred de Grazia's character should alert editors to his biased and unprofessional attitude. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amideg ( talk • contribs) 14:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC) ( Amideg) - Please, see above. —Preceding undated comment added 14:40, 3 December 2009 (UTC).
This is Phaedrus7 in response to Amideg's baseless accusations above. The remarks of mine to which she objects were all referenced to pages in Alfred DeGrazia's Cosmic Heretics, but she does not refer to this substantiation which indicates that DeGrazia met the woman who would become his third wife on Naxos while still married to his second wife. As for DeGrazia's "philandering", a word in quotes because it was written by DeGrazia, a simple search on Google for <philandering "cosmic heretics"> yields the following paragraph in which DeGrazia implicitly admits to such behavior in commenting on Velikovsky's reaction to DeGrazia's divorce from his second wife:
"V. liked Nina, Deg's second wife, who was at the Swiss college on and off. Deg recalls an especially vivid image of the two of them silhouetted in the sunshine and snow against the Alps on the road to Haute-Nendez, talking volubly in Russian. Long after, Deg was reporting to him that Nina had gone to Berlin to marry Peter Bockelmann -- a fine musicologist said Deg, and a fine man. Whereupon V. began to speak of Tolstoi's "Kreutzer Sonata," a story in which a husband, according to V., enjoys sexuality homosexually by turning his wife over to another man. Deg was amused at this. He had been happy that she had found so good a friend after their separation. What were V.'s motives for the story -- his liking for Nina, his dislike of Germans, his need to carry a dubious theory into every human relation, a jealousy of Deg's philandering, a homosexual impulse of his own? That is to say, when it came to conjecturing and examing motives, Deg was unwilling to let others escape. Or perhaps V. just had not gotten the story straight; the couple separated, but they were still friends: it was a plot not to be found in V.'s manual."
Since I do not have ready access to the paginated book itself, after consulting it later today I shall provide additional substantiation for the accuracy of my comments if needed. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 21:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Here is Amideg. There have been questions about reviews of the books of Alfred de Grazia. I have added to the article EIGHT references of major reviews in major publications for his first book alone, Public and Republic, his PhD thesis published by Alfred Knopf in 1951. Here they are: ^ American Political Science Review 45:882 S 1951 650w review by M. J. Fisher ^ Annals of the American Academy, 276:141 Jl 1951, 350w review by Frank Paddock ^ Canadian History Review 32:170 Je 1951 350w review by R.A. Preston ^ New York Herald Tribune Book Review p13 March 18, 1951 450w review by August Heckscher: "A sober scholarly volume, authoritative in its field." ^ The New York Times, p.6 August 26, 1951, 350w by W.E. Binkley: “A thoroughgoing examination of the meaning of representation, the fundamental element in any definition of republic.” ^ William and Mary Quarterly, 3rd Series 8, 1951, review by Herbert N. Drennon ^ Booklist 47:232 March 1st, 1951 ^ U.S. Quarterly Book Review7:163 Je 1951, 210w ^ Library Journal 76:408 March 1st, 1951 130w review by R. W. Henderson. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amideg ( talk • contribs) 10:31, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
I have restored the "Universal Reference System." It is a pioneering creation of Alfred de Grazia, as can be seen from article by Cliford Brock in "Library Trends," April 1967, which can be consulted on U. of Illinois IDEALS site (www.illinois.ideals.edu) when calling up the name of Cliford Brock:
"The leading exponent-and practitioner-in this area, however, has been Alfred de Grazia, professor of government at New York University and founder-editor of the American Behavioral Scientist, originally entitled PROD; Political Research: Organization and Design. The fist issues of PROD in the late 1950’s contained very brief bibliographies of current political science literature, and this effort gradually evolved into a special section of the American Behavioral Scientist entitled “New Studies: a guide to recent publications in the social and behavioral sciences.” This work alerted de Grazia to the “increasing bibliographic frustration” among social scientist, to the problems of manual control, and to the potentialities of machine applications. In 1960 he wrote: “The gentle lady who gives you your library book may soon be as rare as ‘pop and mom’s’ corner grocery store. The reason is the same; just as the chain stores and supermarket have taken over food supply and distribution functions, new forms of organization may soon supplant the traditional library system and the library research techniques used by present-day scholars and librarians. Through the early 1960’s de Grazia made the American Behavioral Scientist a forum for writings on bibliographic and data problems in the social sciences. By 1963 he had developed a “Topical and Methodological Index,” a special social science classification system consisting of some 250 terms emphasizing methodological and theoretical approaches and adaptable to computerization. This classification system was further refined and in 1965 was applied to the first of a projected ten-volume series of bibliographies in “Political Science, Government, and Public Policy.” Volume 1 of this Universal Reference System series, on "International Afairs" (New York, 1965),was produced on IBM 1401/1410computers and contains citations, annotations, and indexed descriptors of over 3,000 books and articles (...)" I have added the titles of the ten volumes of the Universal Reference System showing the range of fields covered.
Amideg ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:20, 22 January 2010 (UTC).
In the section "Support for Velikovsky", Velikovsky's central claim is misrepresented and this obscuration should be clarified. Velikovsky's claim was not merely that Earth has suffered extra-terrestrially caused catastrophes in the past 15,000 years. Specifically, Velikovsky's central claim concerned Earth suffering cosmic catastrophes caused by planets Venus and Mars within the past 3,500 years. As described presently, Velikovsky's astronomically impossible planetary model is comparable to the astronomically feasible cometary model of Victor Clube and Bill Napier abetted by the parallel work of Mike Baillie. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 16:27, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
I have made changes to the opening sentence to reflect more accurately the activities of Alfred de Grazia. I have moved a New York Times assessment of his first book "Public and Republic" to the text of the article. I have added a footnote about his book "Political Behavior" showing a recent (2007) assessment of this work: "A seminal treatment of the subject of charismatic leadership and political organizations," in Thomas H. Johnson, Chris Mason: "Understanding the Taliban and Insurgency in Afghanistan," 2007, attesting to the relevance of his work in present times. Amideg ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:15, 22 January 2010 (UTC).
I have reinstated the paragraph on "Military Activity" which has been repeatedly erased, the last time after 17 minutes. One editor seems to doubt that there were psy ops in WWII. A 1958 biographical notice for Alfred de Grazia in
JSTOR Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science states clearly:
"Dr. de Grazia has taught Political Science at Minnesota, Brown, Columbia and Stanford Universities and has served as Captain engaged in psychological welfare in Africa and Europe during World War II."
[7]
The archives of Georgetown University Library keep a copy of a study in Psychological Warfare that Alfred de Grazia and later US Ambassador Martin Herz produced for the Supreme Headquarters of the Allied Expeditionary Force
[8]
The Ritchie Boys were mainly German speaking Jewish intellectuals and refugees who had fled Hitler's Germany and were trained at the "spy-camp" at Camp Ritchie, Maryland, in psychological warfare and propaganda. Alfred de Grazia was also a trainee there. He gave advice and contributed pictures for the making of the German-Canadian documentary by Christian Bauer, as can be seen in the credits.
Alfred de Grazia has written extensively about his experiences in WWII in his book The Taste of War and according to Wikipedia regulations for biographical articles, writings by the subject of an article are valid references.
Amideg (
talk) —Preceding
undated comment added
10:58, 3 February 2010 (UTC).
Amideg here.
Editor puts in “citation needed” for Alfred de Grazia having been active in psychological warfare during WWII. I had mentioned in my comments a 1958 biographical notice on JSTOR, Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science that:
"Dr. de Grazia has taught Political Science at Minnesota, Brown, Columbia and Stanford Universities and has served as Captain engaged in psychological welfare in Africa and Europe during World War II."
I mentioned in a footnote that the archives of Georgetown University Library keep a copy of a study in Psychological Warfare that Alfred de Grazia and later US Ambassador Martin Herz produced for the Supreme Headquarters of the Allied Expeditionary Force. I thought that this would be enough to establish that subject was active in psychological warfare. I will therefore add the Annals of the American Academy quote to the references to satisfy editor.
Can editor believe that someone who writes a report in psychological warfare for Headquarters has not received any training in this matter? Why then remove the information that he was trained at “OSS in Washington, DC, and in the newly established Camp Ritchie, Maryland?” These experiences are described in subject’s autobiographical work on WWII “The Taste of War.”
Additional reference which I gave for his having been trained at Camp Ritchie comes from a Canadian-German documentary film “The Ritchie Boys,” by Christian Bauer, short-listed for the Academy-Awards in 2005 and shown on TV channels all over the world. Alfred de Grazia’s name appears in the credits as part of a list: “Our thanks to the Ritchie Boys and their girls who have shared their stories with us:–“ Why would this not be an acceptable reference to prove subject’s having been at Camp Ritchie? Is an Academy-Award listed documentary less valid as a source of information than a newspaper article? Why remove the reference and link to this documentary?
Why remove the reference to the autobiography “The Taste of War”?
If editor estimates that this autobiography is “unduly self-serving” and therefore not valid as a reference for wikipedia, the onus of the proof rests on editor. This accusation is not consistent with the rest of subject’s extensive published work. (See references, list of works, critiques of his work.) The “Taste of War” is available on the internet. Why remove the link
[9] that would allow the reader to judge by himself?
I wrote: “With his fiancée, then wife, journalist Jill Oppenheim, he carried on a home-front/war-front correspondence of well over 2,000 lengthy letters (why remove the number of letters and replace it with “extensive?” Is it not significant? Wouldn’t 200 letters also be called an extensive correspondence?) possibly the largest such correspondence of WWII preserved extant, published on the web under title “Letters of Love and War.”
[10] Why remove the link to the letters on the net? Shouldn't the interested wikipedia user be able to check them out? Respectfully,
Amideg (
talk) —Preceding
undated comment added
14:43, 6 February 2010 (UTC).
I have modified opening paragraph. An editor has removed the mention of Alfred de Grazia being an “educator.” A person who has taught in universities for four decades can surely be termed an “educator.” Same editor has removed the mention of subject being a “writer.”
I had written... “Alfred de Grazia is a political scientist, a writer and an educator. He has defended the catastrophism thesis of Velikovsky.” Which, if anything, puts too much emphasis on Velikovsky. This was changed to: “Alfred de Grazia is a political scientist who has defended the catastrophism thesis of Immanuel Velikovsky.”
To define a person with subject’s record as a political scientist (see references) as “a political scientist who has supported the catastrophism theories of Immanuel Velikovsky,” as if Velikovsky had been the emphasis of his work as a political scientist, is reductive and misleading. He is a political scientist who has written many books (over 20, in fact) and taught many courses on subjects which had nothing to do with Velikovsky.
Amideg (
talk) —Preceding
undated comment added
16:21, 6 February 2010 (UTC).
Editors should be aware that de Grazia believes Velikovsky was NOT a catastrophist, but a Velikovskian and that his concept of Quantavolution was the true expression of recent, global catastrophism, of which Velikovsky's model was only one example. This is the sense intended to be conveyed by the edit done with respect to "Velikovsky's central claim" and "Quantavolution". Phaedrus7 ( talk) 21:43, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
I have established my case; the picture shown and the actual picture of my father that has been uploaded to Pinterest https://www.pinterest.com/pin/347340189988471388/ are not the same person; anyone can see that. Why are you so insistent on putting a fake holocaust picture on the page? This is a very important matter. The German people must pay reparations for the crimes of the Nazis, and so every bit of evidence is extremely important. I'm not saying he wasn't in the camps at the end of the War, but that isn't him. You are flying in the face of reason and logic by allowing that picture to remain there. It will throw doubt on other evidence associated with his written records of an epoch. Jagtig ( talk) 22:06, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
This is a very important image, and as one of his children who studied at NYU where he taught politics and had the use of his office, I should clear up the provenance of the image, though I did not post it and do not know who uploaded it to Wikicommons. It's importance stems from the fact that Holocaust-deniers are questioning all such evidence, and point to the marked dissimilarity of all images of Alfred Joseph de Grazia from the one shown to support the claim that he was merely a propagandist and the image is in the way of propaganda, and not proof of the atrocities alleged. You may be aware that Holocaust denial is a crime in some countries, and could bring jail time if proved.
In fact, the picture is not of my father Alfred Joseph de Grazia, but possibly of his attachè, either a French or Italian intelligence officer working with the Americans. My father may be the one holding the camera, but it is certain the man standing before the pile of corpses is not him. However, I wrote this in explanation: "While studying at NYU, I used my father's office to rest in overnight so as to avoid the commute back to Princeton. The filing cabinets attracted my attention, though I knew nothing at the time of my father's visits to the concentration camps, or of the "Holocaust deniers" movement that is now a well-known and wide-spread political phenomenon, popular among Arab intellectuals, Jihadists, neo-Nazis and those Germans who would avoid the reparations payments demanded of them.
While going through a drawer picked at random, I read a letter from my father to my mother, and then moved on. A little ways away, I plucked a photograph of WWII vintage from the file. It was of my father standing in front of a pile starved bodies about seven feet high. The bodies were gruesome and stacked like cord wood. I later learned that this photo was taken in the Buchenwald Concentration (KZ) Camp, and that he and others belonging to General Patton's staff had been ordered in by the General to witness the atrocities.
My father also took my brother and myself on a tour of Africa and Europe that literally followed the route the American Army took in 1941 to 1944 to a large degree, though we diverged after Rome and headed for Istanbul. At no time in my entire contact with my father then, before, or after did he say he was a propagandist.
It seemed that he was a scout or spy of some sort, and I would later learn that his rank and title was that of Captain of Intelligence. This was borne out by what I discovered in Licodia Eubea, Sicily, where my grandfather Master Musician, Arranger and Conductor Alfred Joseph diGrazia hailed from. I found in a house my great-aunt owned books kept by her that had been sent my father during the war, and that included a technical work on camping, scouting and living like the Indians of North America. My great-aunt Immaculate Sister diGrazia of Licodia Eubea, a Dominican nun and school teacher, still had cans of condensed sweetened milk given the Sicilians by American troops during WWII and opened one for us. That was in 1967." - John Sebastian DeGrazia, son of Alfred Joseph de Grazia{{ Jagtig ( talk) 17:28, 5 August 2015 (UTC)}}
I am sure a more complete summary could be made through reading his book concerning this wartime experiences, "A taste of War," however, I would like to mention that there exists film footage of him meeting with Generals Patton, Montgomery and Clark before the Battle of Casino. He was sent in a jeep in advance of the army at this battle, and though the Germans claimed and had made a promise not to fortify the Abbey of Monte Casino that crowns a steep, rocky and un-vegetated hill, German gun emplacements opened fire on him and his companion. The report of this to the generals fueled the decision to bomb the abbey, however the ruins presented equal or better cover for the defenders, and 500 Polish soldiers died in the ultimately successful attempt to take the hill, past which nothing could be moved while the German guns remained. The bombing of the Abbey had far-reaching effects in the ensuing war, as it was held out to the Italians as evidence that the Allies were prepared to demolish Rome, and even the treasures of the Vatican, if they didn't capitulate. The treasures of the Abbey at Monte Casino themselves, had mostly been carried off to safety in advance of the Allied invasion and bombing.
Now, the war wasn't won at Monte Casino, by a long shot, and there followed the Winter War and then the removal of the Germans from Northern Italy, where they remained hidden in the mountains and in slave-labor carved caves along the Gothic Line after Italy surrendered. While that combined American-Italian Partisan campaign was being wound up, the 3rd Army was transported by ship from Leghorn (Livorno) to England. Luckily for him, Patton's division was placed opposite a point on the French coast miles north of where the actual D-Day landing took place. This drew off major parts of the German defensive forces, who rushed south too late to offer opposition to the D-Day invasion, or even drive back those soldiers who had survived the fierce resistance the Nazis had posed with any degree of success.
Patton's tanks and troops were then landed and spearheaded a drive to the Rhine, but the Nazis brought up their Tiger tanks, child soldiers and old men in one last ditch effort to encircle and cut off major portions of the Allied armies with a drive to Belgium and the sea. This was called the Battle of the Bulge to reflect the bulge that was caused in the Allied lines by the efforts of the enemy. It was a time of great loss by virtue of the fact that a general retreat of the kind undertaken by the Americans leaves those nearest the enemy with their backs turned, unable to answer enemy fire, and soon to be overrun. It was during this battle that American soldiers were massacred, and the no-quarter, last-ditch fighting began in earnest; even to the end when captured German soldiers succumbed in captivity through lack of any hygenic precautions being taken, or rather the opposite. My father escaped with his life during WWII, but sadly left many friends in France for all time. He never could talk of it except with tears in his eyes. So, you see, the story of Alfred de Grazia from 1941 to 1945 is very close to the pith and substance of the entire military experience of the United States in Western Europe during WWII, and his close contact with the British thereafter lent that somewhat looney flavor to his persona noted in this biography. Remember, while probing the German positions at Monte Casino he was just a stone's throw from where Mad Jack and his commandos assaulted a German position, with Captain Jack carrying nothing more than a long-bow. He laisoned with General Montgomery's divisions, as well, and the stories of the Centurion tank losses were as close to his heart as American losses in the same fields. There may be other "Catch 22"-like stories, especially with respect to the trek across North Africa and the invasion of Sicily, that remain to be told, or that may reside in his literary works, while his wartime literary contributions (the letters, etc) also remain for the distant future and those who will one day teach a remote, but explosive and world-changing era to university students and scholars in search of a better understanding of the period.
There was only one Alfred de Grazia, and he was the one under attack by the Holocaust denier and apologist, so I wrote this to him: Re: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2015/08/09/in-world-war-ii-were-there-2-americans-named-alfred-degrazia/#comment-46215 "The Alfred de Grazia that was purported to have done all the things attributed to him by you is the same as my father; however, I cannot say why he said any or all of these things, or what the Army actually used him for, or if and why he posted the picture as him when it wasn’t and isn’t. I replaced in the place I found it the actual picture of him posing in front of the stacked bodies at what I am sure was Buchenwald, and Anne-Marie von Hueber – de Grazia said that he had also been to Auschwitz. I did not know this until she made the statement on Facebook in connection with the photo. My father tended to self-aggrandizement and liked Jews who he thought were very smart. He also tended to be a Sophist, or sophistical. He could have written a lot with intent, or purposively. But still, why are you choosing this man, who did so much for humanity, as any sort of model for any sort of behavior that you might find unfavorable to your interests? The Nazis made their own bed and dragged the German people into it. The bombing of cities had already begun in WWI with German Zeppelins hitting London. The British chose to be the first to bomb German cities in WWII, but it would have started with German bombers in due time. I wandered the battlefields of Europe for years, just feeling the pain and division; even in my own mind and family, and grew up with young men and women who had lost their parents in the War, years before. Find someone else to pillory. Al de Grazia should be left in peace; he did his duty and it was rough from the start. He accomplished miracles considering all. Wikipedia is not good for you or your cause; it is filled with crap that anyone with a brain can see is made up to suit the authors’ purposes. I believe the term is “whole cloth,” right from the weaving mill and ready to be cut to suit the maker’s needs. If you are looking for allies in your future campaigns, you are going about it in entirely the wrong way."
There may have been a second Alfred deGrazia with a parallel military record, now being confused with my father Alfred Joseph de Grazia. This Alfred deGrazia may have been associated with the so-called Ritchie boys whose job it was to disseminate propaganda of various sorts. I am sure my father was attached to the 3rd Army through the end of the war, and was one of those ordered into Buchenwald, not Auschwitz, at the end of the war when the territories surrounding those places were liberated by the American Army. There was a huge rush to move in before the Russians, and spare the Germans the decades of rape, robbery and iron rule that accompanied the Russian Occupation of Germany. The right wing is on the rise in Europe at the time this is being written as a result of the refugee crisis, and there will be great efforts made to discredit the Americans and all liberal influences in hopes of staunching the flow of refugees with definitive force. Again, the source of much of the rancor stems from the days of the Battle of the Bulge. It was then that the Americans were unable to fall back enough to avoid surrenders in some cases, and some of those who surrendered were massacred in an incident that is well-documented. This sort of thing did not happen in the Winter War before Rome, when there were also extensive American surrenders. Those who surrendered then spent the war in "Hogan's Heroes" POW camps. The result of the massacre referred to was reprisals, and the Americans began to open fire on child soldiers attempting to surrender. It might be mentioned that my father Alfred de Grazia was part of the heroic resistance that turned the tide at the Battle of the Bulge, and even once quoted Surrounded Commander Bethanne Kelly Patrick, who said "Nuts" when given the ultimatum to surrender. If he was actually inside Bastogne at the time of the encirclement, that would explain a lot, but even if he wasn't... https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/#sthash.3cLrpCsV.dpuf Try "In World War II, were there 2 Americans named Alfred DeGrazia?" in the search box. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jagtig ( talk • contribs) 18:35, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
One last item; although, Alfred de Grazia's page seems to be beyond deletion, and the opinions of a close relative will tend to be biased on the favorable side, I would like to add one more note of "grand explanation," that may strike a favorable note and ring true with the intellectuals to whom this article may remain of interest long after those seeking "true glory" have long departed the page.
When the Americans found themselves in Italy in 1942, they found themselves in an unfamiliar and often very hostile environment. Physically, the south of Italy is a couple of barren mountain chains, with almost no coastal plain and very limited negotiable terrain. It is not tank country, by a long shot. Religiously and intellectually, Italy is Catholic, and the Catholic Church was supporting the Fascists (sorry, again; but, true).
Now, my father, the grandson of Joseph di Grazia, one of Garibaldi's 500, was also the nephew and son of beloved Sicilian Catholic school teachers, Alfred di Grazia and Immaculate Sister di Grazia, and thus was well situated to brave the storm of criticism that greeted the Americans that came from the Catholic Church and Italy's educated Catholic elite .
These, the rulers and thinkers of Fascist Italy "had reason," as the Duce, Benito Mussolini, had done much to "knock out" the Mafia, that super-corrupt organization that had taken over power from the Feudal overlords who were toppled in the 19nth Century, in Sicily and Southern Italy. Unfortunately, in their effort to prevent anarchy and Communism from becoming the postwar order of the day in Southern Italy, as well as to find allies against the Facsists during and after the War, the Americans restored this criminal element to power, to some degree. My father was also ready and able to participate in the leveling of force against "Priests carrying guns," the very thing his grandfather had been called on to do when Garibaldi took Rome (then the entire area of the ancient Roman province of Latium) and added it (less the Vatican) to the Italian state he created.
Okay, we're still not done. The Generals needed some sort of legitimacy; sure, the Bishop had given General Clark a precious jewel at Paestum, but they needed something more than baubles. My father, with his University of Chicago education, was able to connect them with and help explain Italy's remote and glorious past, and General Patton was pleased beyond belief. He came to think that he was Belisarius, sent to drive out the Ostrogoths, though the names wouldn't have rolled off his tongue. Allusions to the depredations the Vandals (Wends?), also found favorable audiences, though the vast majority of the Army was Protestant, and therefore might have identified with the Arian heresy that was the religion of that German tribe who had occupied the African province of Western Rome in the declining years of the Roman Empire. Perhaps, this is what is meant as psychological warfare; I don't know, really.
As stated at the outset, I'm trying to maintain a neutral POV, but doing so requires a distance that only time measured in decades or centuries will bring. As to my own defense contribution, I believe that you will find that I've been able to bring to the Americans and their allies vital information concerning futuristic weapons development, and this has been done at some considerable personal risk and cost. Should some sort of article on this matter appear in Wikipedia in the coming months or years; such as, concerning the development and use of this weapon, then it should link to Alfred de Grazia's page for background and "informational environment" reasons.
As to the use of the photo now circulating purported to be of him standing in front of a pile of severed limbs at a concentration camp; it is not the one I saw in his office at NYU, and I do not recognize the individual in the photograph. This picture is being used by Holocaust deniers and Arab sites, so it should be identified properly, and references to him deleted or separated from it, a difficult thing to do since it seems to have been labelled with his name. The picture I saw may yet appear on the web, as I didn't take any measures to hide or destroy it, despite its gruesome character, and may have even approved of its publication as a proof of the atrocities perpetrated in the Concentration Camps not knowing that Holocaust deniers, neo-Nazis and anti-Semitic and anti-American Arabs would use it for their own purposes. I suspect it went with the rest of the material in his office to the Library of Congress archives where it now resides. {{ Jagtig ( talk) 13:59, 12 August 2015 (UTC)}}
An editor who claims to be the son of the article's subject want to remove the image of de Grazia at Dachau., as he insists it is not a picture of his father. However, the picture appears in de Grazia's self-published book, A Taste of War: Soldiering in Woprld War II. It can be seen here (you have to flip forward about 7/8ths of the way down the scroll bar to the photo before page 482), where the person in the image is identified as the subject of the article. It seems highly unlikely that de Grazia would include in his own book a picture of someone else and identify it as himself. For this reason I restored the photo. BMK ( talk) 19:01, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
I think I've addressed that in my request for mediation. My father wrote constantly and incessantly about almost anything. My late mother Jill Oppenheim - de Grazia kept his papers free of errors for as long as she could. There were hired secretaries, as well. He didn't falsify anything intentionally; it's probably just the case that one photo was on the top, and the other, the real picture of him standing in front of a stack of bodies at Buchenwald was submerged. So, whoever it was, and I'm sure it wasn't him in full consciousness of what he was doing, decided to use the one at hand to illustrate his book about WWII. That picture was probably of his partner and may have been taken by him. He did so many important things for the Government and the American Army, the substitution would have seemed trivial to him. However, in a court of law, that sort of thing can be very serious, and throw everything into doubt, the so-called "falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus" rule. Everything is presumed false upon discovery of a single falsification in any given legal proceeding, though in this case it wouldn't be where sworn oral testimony was concerned. You have the two pictures; the one on Pinterest is the correct person known as Alfred de Grazia; hero, teacher, author, etc. I don't know who the person is whose picture is posted on his page as being of him in the act of liberating Auschwitz. I imagine that it must be very confusing to his descendants and relatives, though, and I'm sure he has plenty of them. Again, I saw the Buchenwald picture, and that's not it. The person in it has no resemblance to my father; his nose is long, he sports a mustache or heavy growth of beard, and he is even thinner than my father was, though my father was very thin and slight of build. My father had a very light beard, as you can see from his picture taken at an advanced age, and was clean-shaven in the WWII pictures I saw him in. He also had a short nose and a pronounced, unmistakable long upper lip, along with a noticeable over-bite. Also; Buchenwald is remembered by the fact that the bodies were ordered stacked by the Americans. Auschwitz may be remembered by the fact that the Americans manned the bulldozers that buried victims of the camp. My father may have been at Auschwitz, but I know he was at Buchenwald by the picture showing him in front of the seven-foot high stack of starved bodies. — Preceding Jagtig ( talk) 23:21, 28 August 2015 (UTC) comment added by Jagtig ( talk • contribs) 23:15, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
The picture was taken with some others, including one of me as an infant, at Stanford around 1951. He was about 32 years old. In 1964 he was about 45, and overweight and balding. He had very thin hair when he did have hair.
I would use this template for a quick restore:
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I have tried the Library of Congress for the correct photo of him at Buchenwald. Unfortunately, something has made him smile rather broadly as the picture is being taken, and that's probably why it wasn't seen as fit for publication.
Your question: To General Inquiries (Library of Congress): My father was a significant figure in the European Theater of War during WWII. He has been written up in Wikipedia, but a picture of his assistant was somehow uploaded, and labelled as him. I have seen a picture of him under the same circumstances, witnessing the carnage at Buchenwald and Auschwitz, and I am under the impression it was archived in the Library of Congress along with the letters to his wife (2000 letters) and other historical, or source, material from WWII. How can I try and trace this photo so that it might be submitted to replace the one uploaded erroneously? This, of course, is a significant historical detail that shouldn't be overlooked. Thank you. /info/en/?search=Alfred_de_Grazia You will receive acknowledgement of question receipt and an answer to your question at the e-mail address you provided. Your question will be assigned to a reference specialist and you should receive a response within five business days.
Yes, Non-free use template; but I haven't found out how to use it, yet. The picture that I want removed is gruesome; appealing to sick types, whether ant-Semites, Satanists or sadists. I've said this before. Still, there's no apparent concern for my father's family shown, and the wholesome picture I offer to be posted alongside it, and which is beyond doubt genuine, yet not all similar to the one of the individual posted in front of the holocaust victims, is being rejected. 108.24.111.82 ( talk) 20:04, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
````That's easy for you to say; you have no understanding of the work my father did, and how we were targeted repeatedly by those he offended. He was active in the de-Nazification program, as stated, and his experiences there led him into advising the Government on how to go after the Mafia, especially where government infiltration is concerned (the classic example used is the takeover of Cicero by Al Capone, but it happens everywhere). I have brothers, sisters, nephews, nieces and great-nephews, as well as cousins who have always been fearful. People like you "take over" intellectual property, with no concern for those who may have to live with the consequences. I write freely because the Mafia and corrupt politicians are highly unlikely to read Wikipedia talk pages, but by posting a tasteless picture which somehow got into one my father's publications (he has hundreds of them and couldn't know what was going on in his last years), you can only do yourself harm, and expose the entire Wikipedia to doubts. You're "in love" with a disgusting image for whatever reasons, and if you look closely it differs from the real picture of him at Buchenwald because the uniform lacks his captain's stripes. Why don't you Google images to see where the picture is being used. It's cropping up on hate and sick sites all over the world. Grow up! When I get money, I'll look for the real picture in the Library of Congress, with the intent of proving your version false. I won't be any happier seeing it posted, though, and will try to prevent that. 108.24.111.82 ( talk) 20:59, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
FYI. On Commons, I have nominated the four pictures above for deletion and reported them for probable copyright violations, since you give the author as "Alfred DeGrazia" (who you are not), and the source as "Kalos Magazine", which I believe is in some way connected with de Grazia, but the copyright for which I very much doubt that you own. As you should be aware, as other images you uploaded to Commons were deleted for this very reason, you are not allowed to upload copyrighted images to Commons unless they are properly licensed, or unless you can show to the Commons OTRS team (as your father did when he uploaded the disputed image) that you own the rights to the image. Please don't do this again. BMK ( talk) 19:27, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Recommended for deletion, on grounds of being a vanity article.
The reference is to a different T V Smith to the one linked to ! -- Beardo 06:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure why it would be recommended that this page be deleted. De Grazia is an influential and significant 20th century intellectual. On what grounds is it construed that this article is a "vanity article"?-- BenJonson 22:41, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
One reason to classify this bio entry a "vanity article" is the fact that it was almost certainly written by the subject and uploaded initially by his wife, Ami de Grazia. -- Phaedrus7 03:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I have added material about my father that I believe to be impartial and POV-neutral. We were very distant, and he had no time for us. I suspect that Wikipedia is "centric," that is, unless the material has appeared before in another authoritative publication, such as Encyclopedia Britannica, they really don't feel that it merits appearing in Wikipedia. "Wikicentric" really means nothing in Wikipedia is original, everything is derivative, and if you could find original material, it would be concerning the presentation of material (publishing) to the public by the public, which is what Wikipedia does and is exactly an aspect that my father would have been interested and involved in as a Sociologist and Political Scientist. Do you see what I mean?
It seems like the article is giving two names for de Grazia's present wife. Which one should stay in the article? We should have one name throughout the article. Ami appears to be a nickname, so I'd like to suggest Anne Marie.-- Sethacus 17:46, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I remember receiving a letter from Ami (the French spelling) addressed to Anne Marie von Hueber. Ami, or Madame Anne-Marie deGrazia, is from Alsace-Lorraine, a Franco-German region that is bilingual. I've learned elsewhere that it was one of the Roman "marches," and she confirmed that the Jews of the area pre-date many or most of the German inhabitants. This was a result of the Diaspora, or the expulsion of the Jews from Palestine, and their subsequent migration up the Danube and then down the Rhine where they settled near enough to the Roman cities to engage in commerce, but far enough from Rome to avoid being bothered by Roman authorities and affected by the politics of that place. Germans were not allowed on the Gallic side of the Rhine during Roman times, and those settled in Alsace may be the descendants of the dozens of tribes the entered Roman-governed territories during the period known as the Great Migrations to German historians. The remains of the Roman rule of Europe will be with us forever, however dysfunctional they are in effect. (
Jagtig (
talk)
16:55, 5 August 2015 (UTC))
Note that de Grazia was one of the first to do computer-based social network analysis -- Facebook in 1953. "In 1953-4, Alfred de Grazia, who was then Executive Officer of the Committee for Research in Social Science and Associate Professor of Political Science at Stanford University, submitted a proposal to the Department of State to write a manual that would help train federal employees assigned to culturally diverse countries around the world..." See http://www.grazian-archive.com/governing/Elite/F_34.html
The American Behavioral Scientist, which De Grazia founded, was the first journal of Sage Publications http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAGE_Publications. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jubois ( talk • contribs) 17:19, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
While it appears that de Grazia is notable for his early works, his 'scientific' work seems rather dubious. Does it really merit more than a brief mention here?-- Michig 09:51, 30 September 2007 (UTC) And is there any notability whatsoever to his plays?-- Michig 09:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
The site for the film in question (The Gene of Hope) is available through the link provided in the article User:Amideg Amideg ( talk) 18:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
We are beginning the process of vetting and editing this article to conform with Wikipedia standards. Part of this was removing wholesale a lot of material that defied either WP:V, WP:NPOV, or WP:NOR. The other part is tagging the article so we can begin the work of cleanup. Please comment if you think this effort is ill-founded. ScienceApologist ( talk) 18:19, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
18:00 19 September, 2008 In its full version before the abusive deletions, this article was admitted to the Biography and Chicago portals, supported by the "Government and Politics" work group and the "Chicago" work group, and given a good rating by both. To delete material which is of interest to these groups is nothing less than sabotaging the article and hurting the purpose of the Wikipedia project. To delete a relevant external link (about University of the New World) and then claim that the proposition is not substantiated is also sabotage. To entirely delete information about the latest ideas in political science of an important political scientist of his generation is depriving the community at large and the political science community of information to wich it is entitled to, whether it agrees with these ideas or not. If an article about the founder of The American Behavioral Scientist (among other things) is supposed to be a vanity article, the Wikipedia project suffers more than the reputation of the subject of the article. These deletions seem at least in part malicious and may be motivated by disageement with some of the subject s ideas and positions. In which case, the editors risk disqualifying themselves for the very job they are supposed to be doing. Amideg - main author 18:15 19 September 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amideg ( talk • contribs) 15:19, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Did they actually do any psychological operations in Germany? There must be umpteen accounts of the push through Germany and if de Grazia played this role a reference could be found.
Itsmejudith (
talk)
19:34, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Okay, here's my chance. PsyOps was something done by specialists trained in the U.S. and brought in at some point after D-Day. My father Alfred Joseph deGrazia was with Generals Patton and Clark and the 3rd Army, now stationed in South Carolina, from the landing in Morocco to, through and after the Battle of the Bulge in France. His job was to go before the tanks in a jeep, test for or detect enemy presence, pick targets and scout for enemy anti-tank emplacements and enemy tanks. In France, all heck broke loose when the Tiger tanks were brought to the front by the Germans. They weren't any better than the Soviet T-34's, but they made the American Sherman tanks look like flimsy beer cans with their superior armor and artillery. Their powerful guns could easily penetrate Sherman tank armor, and their gun sites were better, too. My father was tearing around France in a tiny Jeep hunting for German tanks for most of 1943-44. You must understand tank warfare in Europe to understand his job. The tanks broke up into single, double and sometimes triple tank units accompanied by platoons of infantry, and hunted for the enemy in an attempt to engage them. When the enemy was detected, the range was closed to about a mile and the tanks would duel at that distance until friend or foe was knocked out. The winner of the tank duel would, with their infantry accompaniment, close on the enemy on finish them off. Now, the Tiger tanks won the tank duels disproportionately, and American and British losses were terrible; that is, until the Sherman tanks were retrofitted with heavier cannon. Then, the advantage was lost, and the German Mouse tank, even larger and more heavily armored, never was produced in quantities that would have an impact on the fighting.
As to the Psychological Warfare part of his career, I would suggest the following from personal experience. Whey your duties include scouting out the enemy in areas the enemy is occupying, that job includes making contacts with the locals. At that point, you learn of the deeds of the enemy where the local population is concerned, as well as who is ready to come over, especially who of the community's leadership will join you. The pursuit of this process and all related matters are studied in the Psychological Warfare Department, simply as a matter of classification. There is no separate Contact with Those Occupied Bureau in the Department of Defense. Anyway, that was my experience in Europe; it appeared that my father's job was to encourage those liberated from Nazi control to adopt governments favorable to the Allies, even if they had been Fascists, before. If he committed a crime by doing so, it was through discouraging Communist efforts to fill the power vacuum. At this time, the Soviet Union was sending agents to Greece and Italy through their own liberated territories, the so-called Eastern Block, or Warsaw Pact nations.
I would say that the propagandists that should be watched and scorned are those who say that Israel is strictly a European colonial state because there was no Holocaust, not the Americans and Britons who saw the results of the Holocaust. One wrong does not justify another, but you cannot deny the existence of the death camps, or the fact that my father and others visited them in the days after the Americans occupied the environs. {{
Jagtig (
talk)
17:23, 5 August 2015 (UTC)}}
Michael Polanyi, "The growth of science in society", Minerva Volume 5, Number 4 / June, 1967 DOI 10.1007/BF01096782 Pages 533-545. I haven't got access to the full text at the moment, but it turned up when googling for de Grazia and American Behavioral Scientist. Polanyi was a very interesting philosopher of science. The article discusses the Velikovsky affair. I expect it argues that science needs to make its philosophical underpinning more explicit if it is to fight off pseudoscientific claims. Whatever, it may be a source for de Grazia's editorship of the journal, if nothing else. Itsmejudith ( talk) 19:50, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Possible sources for this article:
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:01, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:47, 21 September 2008 (UTC)Part of the modern-day appeal of the presidency is the belief that the office has natural qualities of coherence, unity, harmony, and rationality. Yet Alfred de Grazia, writing in 1965, reminded us that the president is "a Congress with a skin thrown over him" (p. 72). There is much insight in his observation. We see the fragmentation, divisions, and interests fighting for control within the legislative branch. Identical forces are at work in the executive branch, but they are rarely visible. We imagine a coherence and rationality in the executive branch that do not exist. Alfred de Grazia wrote from a conservative viewpoint, providing a needed check against the breathless exaltation of presidential power.
In 1965, Alfred de Grazia described the American presidency as "the focus of the anxious crowd of the age."(40) The modern chief executive has had to operate in a climate of cultural expectations molded around the hope for inspirational leadership. As successive presidents accommodated their political styles to such aspirations, America was also fighting the cold war. Confronted by a totalitarian threat, its ideological enemies led by dictators who themselves promoted the myth of heroic leadership--a Stalin or a Mao, a Khruschev or a Ho Chi Minh--how might democratic America respond? Its own leaders had to be equal to the challenge.
Not all who take part in politics are rulers, nor are all those interested in rule the ruling class. An American political scientist, Alfred de Grazia, tried to express this phenomenon by stating that some people comprise the ruling class and many more are interested in its workings; he gave the name of politists to the latter. Now, interest in affairs political varies from place to place and epoch to epoch, and the influence that such an interest has on rule varies comparably. In the Greek polis the ruling minority included merely the citizens who gathered at the marketplace and transacted their affairs; the many were the strangers, the peasants and the slaves. Mosca cites this example without realizing that, although the citizens of Athens were doubtless a minority of the inhabitants, they were not organized. They did have laws and they followed not only laws but rules of good behavior, of etiquette, of morals and of good taste. But so did, and do, all other inhabitants of Athens or anywhere else. If we were to follow the thought of Alfred de Grazia, we would say that the rulers of Athens were a minority of that minority comprising the citizens, and that the rest of that minority comprised politists. Actually, his principle is less impressive than it seems at first; most people love art, but this does not mean that they are artists or even art experts. The aficionades of politics, in this sense, are those who spend their lives in faux ménage with politics but without marrying it: philosophers, political scientists, sociologists and writers. But politists are not merely the newspaper writers but also the newspapers readers. The truth is that only a few rule a country, regardless of the number of observers, of voyeurs, of writers of letters-to-the-editor, or even of voters.
Removing sentence in Quantavolution. Per WP:BLP. The one source here says
Alfred de Grazia, who probably more than anyone helped to make Velikovskianism respectable in the 1960s, has
now published a whole series of books expounding catastrophist notions that differ in marked detail from Velikovsky’s; and de Grazia has also published memoirs 9 in which Velikovsky is cut down to human size (thereby making de Grazia very much persona non grata with his
erstwhile companions at KRONOS).
Thus, this one source is used as WP:SYNTH. This is the only mention of the name Grazia in the document according to search. And, it doesn't say he was defending V's work, either. Nor does it say that it was a version of V's ideas, but that it "differed markedly." Anyway, it's contentious, so put it back in with correction, no SYNTH, and with sources for what is being said. I removed the source itself, as it was merely used this way.
Now I am sure that Velikovskianism is bunk- I was sneering at it long before I came to WP. But this is not kosher. —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:06, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
I've cut a lot of unsourced WP:BLP material and weasel-wording out of the article. If we're going to do a BLP right, we need to start with sourced material. I've also cut the list of works he's written; anything notable can be worked into the article text, rather than a sprawling list of everything he's written.
Finally, this section of reviews doesn't really belong in the article as-written, but could be a good source for citations in the article text itself. I've moved it from the article page to here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HandThatFeeds ( talk • contribs) 14:01, September 30, 2009
[For the avoidance of further confusion, the merge was nominated by User:Dbachmann in this edit, although they have made no comment here. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 04:55, 3 October 2009 (UTC) ]
Wait and See It was proposed by another editor that this article be merged with
Velikovskyism. I support that proposal.
Simonm223 (
talk)
16:07, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
In my opinion, Simonm223's proposal verges on the vexacious. He's an editor out to clamp down on pseudoscience within wikipedia, and as such he has this article in his sights. However whilst de Grazia did take an interest in Velikovsky, it is only a small part of his output as an academic, as the user posting from 67.202.96.13 and Phaedrus7 have explained. I do not feel it would be appropriate to merge the article as he proposes.---- feline1 ( talk) 22:26, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
regarding the "vexacious" comment form Feline1 ( talk · contribs) above: this isn't about pseudoscience or no pseudoscience, it is about straightforward Wikipedia:Notability. If Velikovskyism is "only a small part of [Garzia's] [notable] output as an academic", then the burden is on you to establish notability. If you cannot do that, you have no business opposing a merger. I do not see any evidence of "significant coverage in independent third party publications". If there is such coverage, kindly provide the citations. If there isn't, there is no way this can remain a standalone article. It's as simple as that, and accusations of bias in other editors is not going to take away the fact that if you want to keep the article, the burden of establishing notability lies with you. I do not see "wrote some books that got reviewed" under WP:AUTHOR. Instead, you must establish a reasonable claim that Garzia either
the closest we get to this at present would seem to be "has created a collective body of work that has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews."
So, where are the "multiple periodical articles or reviews" that establish the notability of Garzia's body of work? They certainly do not figure in the current revision of the article. If they cannot be produced, this article cannot be maintained. -- dab (𒁳) 12:20, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
"Velikovskyism" itself, does not appear notable, let alone associated with anyone, and I can find no reliable sources that help. Grazia is notable in his own right for "The Velikovsky Affair". Just because his subject is Velikovsky does not diminish his notability. Several other examples of de Grazia's notability have been established by others here (eg. WP:PROF and the subject of a section in a book). Reviews of de Grazia's books are not a problem. See for example:
Someone else can look up the details, and look for more. 67.202.96.13 ( talk) 14:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Itsmejudith, you are going out of your way to torture WP:PROF/ WP:AUTHOR into including de Grazia. So de Grazia founded the ABS journal in 1957, under a different name. That journal was later acquired by a notable publisher and can now be considered a notable academic journal. There is no evidence that the journal was anything of the kind while de Grazia edited it. In fact, there is every indication that de Grazia is a complete crank with no understanding of the basic concept of "science" (as the Skeptical Inquirer review notes) and arguing WP:PROF notability would in fact defeat the entire purpose of that guideline. -- dab (𒁳) 08:56, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
In response to a request for a quote from Ted Morgan's Literary Outlaw: The Life and Times of William S. Burroughs (held by over 900 libraries worldwide) supporting the citation in the de Grazia entry, here is the passage on pp. 453-454 (demarcating the book's line lengths with "/" and paragraphs with "¶") concerning de Grazia's University of the New World in Switzerland:
Begin passage/quote:
In October 1971 Burroughs was offered a teaching appointment in
Switzerland. Al de Grazia, a political scientist and the brother of Ed de
Grazia, who had handled the Naked Lunch obscenity trial for Grove
Press, had founded the University of the New World in the Alpine village
of Haute-Nendaz. It was intended as an alternative to the over-structured
American colleges, where young people could learn in an untrammeled
spirit of inquiry, without regulations or deans' offices. Instead of classes,
there were "studios" and "rapport groups." The students wore T-shirts
that said, "No classes, no grades, no exams." They could have added,
"No tuition," since very few of them were paid up.
Al de Grazia had hit on the novel scheme of printing his own currency,
with bills called Cows, since they had a picture of a heifer on both sides.
"On the first business day of each month," it was stated on the bills, "the
University will pay to the bearer, in exchange for this coupon, its face
value in Swiss francs. A 2% premium will be added. Not valid unless
stamped with official University of the New World seal." There was,
however, some resistance on the part of local shopkeepers to accepting
Cows as legal tender.
Burroughs was looking forward to three months of light teaching in
the clean mountain air. The brochure showed a lovely campus of Swiss
chalets nestled in pine groves at 4,000 feet, with mountain peaks in the
background. But when he took a taxi at the train station and asked for
the University of the New World, he was taken to a broken-down shack
in the middle of a field. No one seemed to be around. He walked to the
village and found a hotel, where a room had been reserved in his name.
At least he had a roof over his head. But where was everybody? He
finally ran into a couple of students who clued him in.
The school had attracted the drifters and dropouts on the international
hippie circuit, and the prim Swiss were up in arms over the open use of
drugs in their little town. In addition, some black musicians from the
"music studio" had begun dating local girls, a practice that was frowned
on by the elders. Burroughs saw the University of the New World dis-
integrating before his eyes. He knew he would not be paid, and he hoped
he would not get stuck with the bill at the Hotel Montcalm, where he
had been put up. If he got his fare back to London it would be a miracle.
What a mess! As for the clean mountain air, after London, it had inca-
pacitated him with a racking cough. The nearest drugstore was fifteen
miles away, but he managed to get a batch of codeine pills and took to
his bed with a pile of science fiction novels.
When he felt better he gave a couple of lectures. But stupidity was
rampant among the students. "Uhhh," one asked, "the heat in the ra-
daitors, where does it come from?" Another remarked that Tangier must
be very hot because it was in Africa, while a third asserted that big planes
were safer than small planes because they were bigger. My Gawd, thought
Burroughs, this university is pas sérieux. He was practically the only
teacher who had shown up. The instructor who was supposed to teach
the film course had taken off with the only projector.
For once, Burroughs was genuinely glad to get back to London. Any-
thing was better than this madness with the hippies and the Cows. And
yet he continued to feel the need to move, and thought about Afghanistan
and southern Morocco. He had a conversation with his imaginary god-
father:
"My books aren't selling and soon I shall have no money. What shall
I do?"
We, his children and wife, lived in Princeton near to the infamous Prospect Avenue eating clubs; in fact, our first house in Princeton had been the home of the Colonial Club, and the clubbies returned once to steal a Picasso painting off my parents' bedroom wall. Now, if you want to see what life is like at a latter-day university, read this report made for the benefit of a contact I have in the FBI. You will see that coke (cocaine) is a primary mover of all things, great and small, and that Tesla physics, just the kind of thing my father would have fostered, is the second most important thing in the world. Unfortunately, the high-voltage physics can be lethal and weaponized, and you will see from the reading that the results are tragic, beyond belief. http://www.princetonweb.org/fbi.pdf {{ Jagtig ( talk) 17:38, 5 August 2015 (UTC)}}
End passage/quote.
Make use of this text as needed. Additional information may be gleaned from the Velikovsky Encyclopedia and a google.com search on <grazia "university of the new world">, although apparently the text for Cosmic Heretics containing two pages on the subject is no longer available. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 18:24, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Even more reviews of de Grazia's books (which were removed from his article):
So which notability criteria are we going to claim he fails now? 67.202.96.13 ( talk) 19:31, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
A few points:
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 01:56, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Can't have it both ways. Either we first come to a consensus about whether the article goes or stays, and then work on it. Or we just work on it.
Simon, could you say what you didn't like about my changes you reverted? They responded to comments made above here. Itsmejudith ( talk) 17:30, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Itsmejudith ( talk · contribs) has recently made a whole bunch of edits. Now some of these I think are harmful to the NPoV of the article. Others may in fact point to notability of the subject. Problem is that so much has been changed that going back and sorting out viable references, pov affecting changes, etc. will take some time. Please slow your edits down a bit so that other editors can assess. It would be a shame if somebody came along, saw mass changes and reverted everything if there is, in fact, valid references in that. Simonm223 ( talk) 17:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
De Grazia's interest in Velikovsky's ideas extends beyond the two books The Velikovsky Affair (1966) and Cosmic Heretics (1984). In 1968, de Grazia founded and became the first president of an independent organization whose purpose was to research and promote Velikovsky's ideas. This organization was the Foundation for Studies in Modern Science whose history is recounted in Cosmic Heretics, pp. 213-229, in Chapter 12: "The Third World of Science". In addition to de Grazia, the Board of Trustees was comprised of Richard P. Kramer, Livio Stecchini, Ralph Juergens (co-author/editor, The Velikovsky Affair), Horace Kallen, Harry H. Hess, A. Bruce Mainwaring (presently a Trustee of the University of Pennsylvania), John Holbrook, Jr., Robert C. Stephanos (founded the Comyns Beaumont Society in 1975), and Warner Sizemore (co-founder of Kronos in 1974). The foundation was defunct by 1972, but not for a lack of trying and in part due to Velikovsky's behind the scenes meddling. Contrary to my comment yesterday, content in Cosmic Heretics can be accessed via google.com searches using well-chosen key words/phrases. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 18:34, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Do we have consensus that Henry H. Bauer, Beyond Velikovsky 1984 University of Illinois is an excellent source for this article (as long as it remains in existence) and indeed for all Velikovsky related articles? Itsmejudith ( talk) 11:11, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Bauer's book (held by over 550 libraries) is very authoritative with respect to Velikovsky and the reviews in the mainstream literature were uniformly positive. However, it should be kept in mind that de Grazia does not figure prominently in the book and, except for minor additions to the text immediately prior to publication, the manuscript was completed by 1979 before de Grazia's "Quantavolution" book series was published in the early 1980s. Bauer's take on de Grazia vis a vis Velikovsky is best monitored in his review of Cosmic Heretics in Summer 1985 Skeptical Inquirer. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 17:23, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
As mentioned above, de Grazia's academic career is touched upon in Rebecca S. Lowen. Creating the Cold War University: The Transformation of Stanford. Berkeley and Los Angeles: University of California Press, 1997.
I think we could usefully have something like the following:
"In 1952 de Grazia was appointed director of the Committee for Research in the Social Sciences at Stanford University. The appointment was supported by a Ford Foundation grant. Lowen (1997) described him as "a political scientist deeply committed to scientizing his disciplin and promoting studies of political behavior". In 1955 he was turned down for tenure at Stanford.
Please discuss. You can see the full text in google books - there's a link above here. The context for Lowen's mention of deG is that she argues that during the Cold War there was pressure in Stanford to curtail the activities even of dispassionate social scientists, if they were not actively promoting an anti-communist agenda. She casts deG as one of those social scientists, which is consistent with what we glean from other sources about his academic work in this period. Her book is an academic one but I haven't looked to see how it was received.
If this article is to stay (how long will the merge discussion stay open?) then we need detail of the universities where he worked. Itsmejudith ( talk) 11:58, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Mark Solovey "Rethinking the Politics–Patronage–Social Science Nexus" Social Studies of Science 31/2(April 2001) 171–206 lists de Grazia as having been involved in the design of Project Camelot, but then becoming unhappy with it.
In a footnote, he says:
Alfred de Grazia is quoted at length in Gideon Sjoberg, ‘Project Camelot: Selected Reactions and Personal Reflections’, in Sjoberg (ed.), Ethics, Politics, and Social Research (Cambridge, MA: Schenkman Publishing Co., 1967), 141–61, at 143–45.
I would think this is more material that should be reflected in the article. Itsmejudith ( talk) 12:24, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Discussion on the Fringe Theories Noticeboard. You will see I don't have a hidden agenda to promote the guy's views - unless you think there is a very deep conspiracy indeed here. My memory was poor; I thought I alerted ScienceApologist but it was the other way round. Now I have read more, I think the subject does meet WP:PROF. Shows how a cursory glance can be wrong. Itsmejudith ( talk)
“ | The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones. | ” |
See Talk item no. 3 above about de Grazia's wives. His current wife, at least no. 3, is Ami de Grazia, the former Anne-Marie Hueber, a French novelist, and editor of early versions of this entry. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 23:43, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
We have a citation needed tag on the journal being renamed and acquired by Sage. Sage's own catalogue shows that it is published by them today; that's trivial. The contents pages (on Sage's website) show, in various article titles, that it was ABS in the early 1960s, and although the contents from the first edition are available they do not indicate the journal name. Can we find out from some RS or other when it was renamed and when acquired by Sage? Itsmejudith ( talk) 10:00, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Do we have any third-party sources (other than mere catalogue entries) demonstrating the noteworthiness of any of the following points:
Otherwise I would suggest (per WP:DUE) reducing coverage of it to a mere parenthetical note mentioning that he founded it (with source), in the existing mention of it in 'Support for Velikovsky'. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 03:49, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Since the entry treats de Grazia's early 1970s experimental University of the New World in Switzerland, perhaps a fuller appreciation of the man might be gleaned from a knowledge of his February 20, 1980, proposal to the Open University at the University of Maryland for a two year pilot program in a new Institute of Quantavolution, which de Grazia presents in his The Burning of Troy, Chapter 29, "I.Q.: A University Program". The proposal was turned down; but no one can justifiably dismiss de Grazia for being "half vast" and the proposal establishes his bona fides in writing grant proposals. Regrettably, there is no third-party source for this initiative. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 18:06, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
To answer Hrafn's query: Although I was not personally present at the University of Maryland presentation on Feb. 20, 1980, De Grazia and I met over cocktails later that afternoon in the bar at The Capitol Hilton on Sixteenth Street, N.W., in Washington, D.C., where he told me all about the meeting and indicated that I could have a position on the faculty. In Cosmic Heretics, Chapter 15: "The Knowledge Industry", pp. 303-305, De Grazia describes a similar, unsuccessful proposal October 29, 1973, for a summer program at New York University, his home base. Cosmic Heretics is quite an autobiographical, if very non-linear, presentation in which De Grazia reveals many details about his personal life, including his "philandering" (p. 108), and his life with wife number two, Nina Mavridis (pp. 132-3 in Ch. 8; pp. 322-5 in Ch. 15) whom he met in New York in 1967, and wife number three (and currently), Anne Marie Hueber (p. 329 in Ch. 15) whom he met on Naxos in early 1970s while married to Mavridis and married in 1982. Along the way in Cosmic Heretics, De Grazia confesses to having spent a mere eight months over a twevle year period on mainstream professional activities, the rest of the time having been devoted to various Velikovskian cum quantavolution projects. Fortunately, De Grazia has uploaded a concordance to his quantavolution publications which permits easy searching. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 18:34, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
Regarding DeGrazia's tenure as editor of ABS, according to Who's Who in America, 37th edition, 1972-1973, p. 772, it extended from 1957 to 1966. Granting DeGrazia's credulity with respect to Quantavolution as a valid rival to mainstream science, he knew how to write a professionally competent proposal which would have stood a good chance of acceptance were its subject institutionally acceptable. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 23:13, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 03:59, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
I reverted these as they would discussion here. Amideg, you must remember that you have a conflict of interest. If you edit at all you must do so with the greatest caution and not promote your own/your husband's interests. Here are my thoughts:
Itsmejudith ( talk) 09:46, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
This is Amideg. On December 1st, 2009 I reinstated several paragraphs of the article, adding new and strong references. Everything I added was deleted by ItsmeJudith less than half an hour later, making it impossible for anybody to judge my additions. What is very strange and puzzling, is that there is no longer any trace of the changes I made, nor of the references, nor of ItsmeJudith's deletions on the discussion page. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? I would also like to correct the ridiculous assertions of Phaedrus7 about Alfred de Grazia's "philandering." Alfred de Grazia divorced Nina Mavridis in 1974 and met Anne-Marie Hueber de Grazia in 1977. The fact that Phaedrus7 should even bring up something like this in an attempt to attack Alfred de Grazia's character should alert editors to his biased and unprofessional attitude. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amideg ( talk • contribs) 14:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC) ( Amideg) - Please, see above. —Preceding undated comment added 14:40, 3 December 2009 (UTC).
This is Phaedrus7 in response to Amideg's baseless accusations above. The remarks of mine to which she objects were all referenced to pages in Alfred DeGrazia's Cosmic Heretics, but she does not refer to this substantiation which indicates that DeGrazia met the woman who would become his third wife on Naxos while still married to his second wife. As for DeGrazia's "philandering", a word in quotes because it was written by DeGrazia, a simple search on Google for <philandering "cosmic heretics"> yields the following paragraph in which DeGrazia implicitly admits to such behavior in commenting on Velikovsky's reaction to DeGrazia's divorce from his second wife:
"V. liked Nina, Deg's second wife, who was at the Swiss college on and off. Deg recalls an especially vivid image of the two of them silhouetted in the sunshine and snow against the Alps on the road to Haute-Nendez, talking volubly in Russian. Long after, Deg was reporting to him that Nina had gone to Berlin to marry Peter Bockelmann -- a fine musicologist said Deg, and a fine man. Whereupon V. began to speak of Tolstoi's "Kreutzer Sonata," a story in which a husband, according to V., enjoys sexuality homosexually by turning his wife over to another man. Deg was amused at this. He had been happy that she had found so good a friend after their separation. What were V.'s motives for the story -- his liking for Nina, his dislike of Germans, his need to carry a dubious theory into every human relation, a jealousy of Deg's philandering, a homosexual impulse of his own? That is to say, when it came to conjecturing and examing motives, Deg was unwilling to let others escape. Or perhaps V. just had not gotten the story straight; the couple separated, but they were still friends: it was a plot not to be found in V.'s manual."
Since I do not have ready access to the paginated book itself, after consulting it later today I shall provide additional substantiation for the accuracy of my comments if needed. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 21:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Here is Amideg. There have been questions about reviews of the books of Alfred de Grazia. I have added to the article EIGHT references of major reviews in major publications for his first book alone, Public and Republic, his PhD thesis published by Alfred Knopf in 1951. Here they are: ^ American Political Science Review 45:882 S 1951 650w review by M. J. Fisher ^ Annals of the American Academy, 276:141 Jl 1951, 350w review by Frank Paddock ^ Canadian History Review 32:170 Je 1951 350w review by R.A. Preston ^ New York Herald Tribune Book Review p13 March 18, 1951 450w review by August Heckscher: "A sober scholarly volume, authoritative in its field." ^ The New York Times, p.6 August 26, 1951, 350w by W.E. Binkley: “A thoroughgoing examination of the meaning of representation, the fundamental element in any definition of republic.” ^ William and Mary Quarterly, 3rd Series 8, 1951, review by Herbert N. Drennon ^ Booklist 47:232 March 1st, 1951 ^ U.S. Quarterly Book Review7:163 Je 1951, 210w ^ Library Journal 76:408 March 1st, 1951 130w review by R. W. Henderson. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amideg ( talk • contribs) 10:31, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
I have restored the "Universal Reference System." It is a pioneering creation of Alfred de Grazia, as can be seen from article by Cliford Brock in "Library Trends," April 1967, which can be consulted on U. of Illinois IDEALS site (www.illinois.ideals.edu) when calling up the name of Cliford Brock:
"The leading exponent-and practitioner-in this area, however, has been Alfred de Grazia, professor of government at New York University and founder-editor of the American Behavioral Scientist, originally entitled PROD; Political Research: Organization and Design. The fist issues of PROD in the late 1950’s contained very brief bibliographies of current political science literature, and this effort gradually evolved into a special section of the American Behavioral Scientist entitled “New Studies: a guide to recent publications in the social and behavioral sciences.” This work alerted de Grazia to the “increasing bibliographic frustration” among social scientist, to the problems of manual control, and to the potentialities of machine applications. In 1960 he wrote: “The gentle lady who gives you your library book may soon be as rare as ‘pop and mom’s’ corner grocery store. The reason is the same; just as the chain stores and supermarket have taken over food supply and distribution functions, new forms of organization may soon supplant the traditional library system and the library research techniques used by present-day scholars and librarians. Through the early 1960’s de Grazia made the American Behavioral Scientist a forum for writings on bibliographic and data problems in the social sciences. By 1963 he had developed a “Topical and Methodological Index,” a special social science classification system consisting of some 250 terms emphasizing methodological and theoretical approaches and adaptable to computerization. This classification system was further refined and in 1965 was applied to the first of a projected ten-volume series of bibliographies in “Political Science, Government, and Public Policy.” Volume 1 of this Universal Reference System series, on "International Afairs" (New York, 1965),was produced on IBM 1401/1410computers and contains citations, annotations, and indexed descriptors of over 3,000 books and articles (...)" I have added the titles of the ten volumes of the Universal Reference System showing the range of fields covered.
Amideg ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:20, 22 January 2010 (UTC).
In the section "Support for Velikovsky", Velikovsky's central claim is misrepresented and this obscuration should be clarified. Velikovsky's claim was not merely that Earth has suffered extra-terrestrially caused catastrophes in the past 15,000 years. Specifically, Velikovsky's central claim concerned Earth suffering cosmic catastrophes caused by planets Venus and Mars within the past 3,500 years. As described presently, Velikovsky's astronomically impossible planetary model is comparable to the astronomically feasible cometary model of Victor Clube and Bill Napier abetted by the parallel work of Mike Baillie. Phaedrus7 ( talk) 16:27, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
I have made changes to the opening sentence to reflect more accurately the activities of Alfred de Grazia. I have moved a New York Times assessment of his first book "Public and Republic" to the text of the article. I have added a footnote about his book "Political Behavior" showing a recent (2007) assessment of this work: "A seminal treatment of the subject of charismatic leadership and political organizations," in Thomas H. Johnson, Chris Mason: "Understanding the Taliban and Insurgency in Afghanistan," 2007, attesting to the relevance of his work in present times. Amideg ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:15, 22 January 2010 (UTC).
I have reinstated the paragraph on "Military Activity" which has been repeatedly erased, the last time after 17 minutes. One editor seems to doubt that there were psy ops in WWII. A 1958 biographical notice for Alfred de Grazia in
JSTOR Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science states clearly:
"Dr. de Grazia has taught Political Science at Minnesota, Brown, Columbia and Stanford Universities and has served as Captain engaged in psychological welfare in Africa and Europe during World War II."
[7]
The archives of Georgetown University Library keep a copy of a study in Psychological Warfare that Alfred de Grazia and later US Ambassador Martin Herz produced for the Supreme Headquarters of the Allied Expeditionary Force
[8]
The Ritchie Boys were mainly German speaking Jewish intellectuals and refugees who had fled Hitler's Germany and were trained at the "spy-camp" at Camp Ritchie, Maryland, in psychological warfare and propaganda. Alfred de Grazia was also a trainee there. He gave advice and contributed pictures for the making of the German-Canadian documentary by Christian Bauer, as can be seen in the credits.
Alfred de Grazia has written extensively about his experiences in WWII in his book The Taste of War and according to Wikipedia regulations for biographical articles, writings by the subject of an article are valid references.
Amideg (
talk) —Preceding
undated comment added
10:58, 3 February 2010 (UTC).
Amideg here.
Editor puts in “citation needed” for Alfred de Grazia having been active in psychological warfare during WWII. I had mentioned in my comments a 1958 biographical notice on JSTOR, Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science that:
"Dr. de Grazia has taught Political Science at Minnesota, Brown, Columbia and Stanford Universities and has served as Captain engaged in psychological welfare in Africa and Europe during World War II."
I mentioned in a footnote that the archives of Georgetown University Library keep a copy of a study in Psychological Warfare that Alfred de Grazia and later US Ambassador Martin Herz produced for the Supreme Headquarters of the Allied Expeditionary Force. I thought that this would be enough to establish that subject was active in psychological warfare. I will therefore add the Annals of the American Academy quote to the references to satisfy editor.
Can editor believe that someone who writes a report in psychological warfare for Headquarters has not received any training in this matter? Why then remove the information that he was trained at “OSS in Washington, DC, and in the newly established Camp Ritchie, Maryland?” These experiences are described in subject’s autobiographical work on WWII “The Taste of War.”
Additional reference which I gave for his having been trained at Camp Ritchie comes from a Canadian-German documentary film “The Ritchie Boys,” by Christian Bauer, short-listed for the Academy-Awards in 2005 and shown on TV channels all over the world. Alfred de Grazia’s name appears in the credits as part of a list: “Our thanks to the Ritchie Boys and their girls who have shared their stories with us:–“ Why would this not be an acceptable reference to prove subject’s having been at Camp Ritchie? Is an Academy-Award listed documentary less valid as a source of information than a newspaper article? Why remove the reference and link to this documentary?
Why remove the reference to the autobiography “The Taste of War”?
If editor estimates that this autobiography is “unduly self-serving” and therefore not valid as a reference for wikipedia, the onus of the proof rests on editor. This accusation is not consistent with the rest of subject’s extensive published work. (See references, list of works, critiques of his work.) The “Taste of War” is available on the internet. Why remove the link
[9] that would allow the reader to judge by himself?
I wrote: “With his fiancée, then wife, journalist Jill Oppenheim, he carried on a home-front/war-front correspondence of well over 2,000 lengthy letters (why remove the number of letters and replace it with “extensive?” Is it not significant? Wouldn’t 200 letters also be called an extensive correspondence?) possibly the largest such correspondence of WWII preserved extant, published on the web under title “Letters of Love and War.”
[10] Why remove the link to the letters on the net? Shouldn't the interested wikipedia user be able to check them out? Respectfully,
Amideg (
talk) —Preceding
undated comment added
14:43, 6 February 2010 (UTC).
I have modified opening paragraph. An editor has removed the mention of Alfred de Grazia being an “educator.” A person who has taught in universities for four decades can surely be termed an “educator.” Same editor has removed the mention of subject being a “writer.”
I had written... “Alfred de Grazia is a political scientist, a writer and an educator. He has defended the catastrophism thesis of Velikovsky.” Which, if anything, puts too much emphasis on Velikovsky. This was changed to: “Alfred de Grazia is a political scientist who has defended the catastrophism thesis of Immanuel Velikovsky.”
To define a person with subject’s record as a political scientist (see references) as “a political scientist who has supported the catastrophism theories of Immanuel Velikovsky,” as if Velikovsky had been the emphasis of his work as a political scientist, is reductive and misleading. He is a political scientist who has written many books (over 20, in fact) and taught many courses on subjects which had nothing to do with Velikovsky.
Amideg (
talk) —Preceding
undated comment added
16:21, 6 February 2010 (UTC).
Editors should be aware that de Grazia believes Velikovsky was NOT a catastrophist, but a Velikovskian and that his concept of Quantavolution was the true expression of recent, global catastrophism, of which Velikovsky's model was only one example. This is the sense intended to be conveyed by the edit done with respect to "Velikovsky's central claim" and "Quantavolution". Phaedrus7 ( talk) 21:43, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
I have established my case; the picture shown and the actual picture of my father that has been uploaded to Pinterest https://www.pinterest.com/pin/347340189988471388/ are not the same person; anyone can see that. Why are you so insistent on putting a fake holocaust picture on the page? This is a very important matter. The German people must pay reparations for the crimes of the Nazis, and so every bit of evidence is extremely important. I'm not saying he wasn't in the camps at the end of the War, but that isn't him. You are flying in the face of reason and logic by allowing that picture to remain there. It will throw doubt on other evidence associated with his written records of an epoch. Jagtig ( talk) 22:06, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
This is a very important image, and as one of his children who studied at NYU where he taught politics and had the use of his office, I should clear up the provenance of the image, though I did not post it and do not know who uploaded it to Wikicommons. It's importance stems from the fact that Holocaust-deniers are questioning all such evidence, and point to the marked dissimilarity of all images of Alfred Joseph de Grazia from the one shown to support the claim that he was merely a propagandist and the image is in the way of propaganda, and not proof of the atrocities alleged. You may be aware that Holocaust denial is a crime in some countries, and could bring jail time if proved.
In fact, the picture is not of my father Alfred Joseph de Grazia, but possibly of his attachè, either a French or Italian intelligence officer working with the Americans. My father may be the one holding the camera, but it is certain the man standing before the pile of corpses is not him. However, I wrote this in explanation: "While studying at NYU, I used my father's office to rest in overnight so as to avoid the commute back to Princeton. The filing cabinets attracted my attention, though I knew nothing at the time of my father's visits to the concentration camps, or of the "Holocaust deniers" movement that is now a well-known and wide-spread political phenomenon, popular among Arab intellectuals, Jihadists, neo-Nazis and those Germans who would avoid the reparations payments demanded of them.
While going through a drawer picked at random, I read a letter from my father to my mother, and then moved on. A little ways away, I plucked a photograph of WWII vintage from the file. It was of my father standing in front of a pile starved bodies about seven feet high. The bodies were gruesome and stacked like cord wood. I later learned that this photo was taken in the Buchenwald Concentration (KZ) Camp, and that he and others belonging to General Patton's staff had been ordered in by the General to witness the atrocities.
My father also took my brother and myself on a tour of Africa and Europe that literally followed the route the American Army took in 1941 to 1944 to a large degree, though we diverged after Rome and headed for Istanbul. At no time in my entire contact with my father then, before, or after did he say he was a propagandist.
It seemed that he was a scout or spy of some sort, and I would later learn that his rank and title was that of Captain of Intelligence. This was borne out by what I discovered in Licodia Eubea, Sicily, where my grandfather Master Musician, Arranger and Conductor Alfred Joseph diGrazia hailed from. I found in a house my great-aunt owned books kept by her that had been sent my father during the war, and that included a technical work on camping, scouting and living like the Indians of North America. My great-aunt Immaculate Sister diGrazia of Licodia Eubea, a Dominican nun and school teacher, still had cans of condensed sweetened milk given the Sicilians by American troops during WWII and opened one for us. That was in 1967." - John Sebastian DeGrazia, son of Alfred Joseph de Grazia{{ Jagtig ( talk) 17:28, 5 August 2015 (UTC)}}
I am sure a more complete summary could be made through reading his book concerning this wartime experiences, "A taste of War," however, I would like to mention that there exists film footage of him meeting with Generals Patton, Montgomery and Clark before the Battle of Casino. He was sent in a jeep in advance of the army at this battle, and though the Germans claimed and had made a promise not to fortify the Abbey of Monte Casino that crowns a steep, rocky and un-vegetated hill, German gun emplacements opened fire on him and his companion. The report of this to the generals fueled the decision to bomb the abbey, however the ruins presented equal or better cover for the defenders, and 500 Polish soldiers died in the ultimately successful attempt to take the hill, past which nothing could be moved while the German guns remained. The bombing of the Abbey had far-reaching effects in the ensuing war, as it was held out to the Italians as evidence that the Allies were prepared to demolish Rome, and even the treasures of the Vatican, if they didn't capitulate. The treasures of the Abbey at Monte Casino themselves, had mostly been carried off to safety in advance of the Allied invasion and bombing.
Now, the war wasn't won at Monte Casino, by a long shot, and there followed the Winter War and then the removal of the Germans from Northern Italy, where they remained hidden in the mountains and in slave-labor carved caves along the Gothic Line after Italy surrendered. While that combined American-Italian Partisan campaign was being wound up, the 3rd Army was transported by ship from Leghorn (Livorno) to England. Luckily for him, Patton's division was placed opposite a point on the French coast miles north of where the actual D-Day landing took place. This drew off major parts of the German defensive forces, who rushed south too late to offer opposition to the D-Day invasion, or even drive back those soldiers who had survived the fierce resistance the Nazis had posed with any degree of success.
Patton's tanks and troops were then landed and spearheaded a drive to the Rhine, but the Nazis brought up their Tiger tanks, child soldiers and old men in one last ditch effort to encircle and cut off major portions of the Allied armies with a drive to Belgium and the sea. This was called the Battle of the Bulge to reflect the bulge that was caused in the Allied lines by the efforts of the enemy. It was a time of great loss by virtue of the fact that a general retreat of the kind undertaken by the Americans leaves those nearest the enemy with their backs turned, unable to answer enemy fire, and soon to be overrun. It was during this battle that American soldiers were massacred, and the no-quarter, last-ditch fighting began in earnest; even to the end when captured German soldiers succumbed in captivity through lack of any hygenic precautions being taken, or rather the opposite. My father escaped with his life during WWII, but sadly left many friends in France for all time. He never could talk of it except with tears in his eyes. So, you see, the story of Alfred de Grazia from 1941 to 1945 is very close to the pith and substance of the entire military experience of the United States in Western Europe during WWII, and his close contact with the British thereafter lent that somewhat looney flavor to his persona noted in this biography. Remember, while probing the German positions at Monte Casino he was just a stone's throw from where Mad Jack and his commandos assaulted a German position, with Captain Jack carrying nothing more than a long-bow. He laisoned with General Montgomery's divisions, as well, and the stories of the Centurion tank losses were as close to his heart as American losses in the same fields. There may be other "Catch 22"-like stories, especially with respect to the trek across North Africa and the invasion of Sicily, that remain to be told, or that may reside in his literary works, while his wartime literary contributions (the letters, etc) also remain for the distant future and those who will one day teach a remote, but explosive and world-changing era to university students and scholars in search of a better understanding of the period.
There was only one Alfred de Grazia, and he was the one under attack by the Holocaust denier and apologist, so I wrote this to him: Re: https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2015/08/09/in-world-war-ii-were-there-2-americans-named-alfred-degrazia/#comment-46215 "The Alfred de Grazia that was purported to have done all the things attributed to him by you is the same as my father; however, I cannot say why he said any or all of these things, or what the Army actually used him for, or if and why he posted the picture as him when it wasn’t and isn’t. I replaced in the place I found it the actual picture of him posing in front of the stacked bodies at what I am sure was Buchenwald, and Anne-Marie von Hueber – de Grazia said that he had also been to Auschwitz. I did not know this until she made the statement on Facebook in connection with the photo. My father tended to self-aggrandizement and liked Jews who he thought were very smart. He also tended to be a Sophist, or sophistical. He could have written a lot with intent, or purposively. But still, why are you choosing this man, who did so much for humanity, as any sort of model for any sort of behavior that you might find unfavorable to your interests? The Nazis made their own bed and dragged the German people into it. The bombing of cities had already begun in WWI with German Zeppelins hitting London. The British chose to be the first to bomb German cities in WWII, but it would have started with German bombers in due time. I wandered the battlefields of Europe for years, just feeling the pain and division; even in my own mind and family, and grew up with young men and women who had lost their parents in the War, years before. Find someone else to pillory. Al de Grazia should be left in peace; he did his duty and it was rough from the start. He accomplished miracles considering all. Wikipedia is not good for you or your cause; it is filled with crap that anyone with a brain can see is made up to suit the authors’ purposes. I believe the term is “whole cloth,” right from the weaving mill and ready to be cut to suit the maker’s needs. If you are looking for allies in your future campaigns, you are going about it in entirely the wrong way."
There may have been a second Alfred deGrazia with a parallel military record, now being confused with my father Alfred Joseph de Grazia. This Alfred deGrazia may have been associated with the so-called Ritchie boys whose job it was to disseminate propaganda of various sorts. I am sure my father was attached to the 3rd Army through the end of the war, and was one of those ordered into Buchenwald, not Auschwitz, at the end of the war when the territories surrounding those places were liberated by the American Army. There was a huge rush to move in before the Russians, and spare the Germans the decades of rape, robbery and iron rule that accompanied the Russian Occupation of Germany. The right wing is on the rise in Europe at the time this is being written as a result of the refugee crisis, and there will be great efforts made to discredit the Americans and all liberal influences in hopes of staunching the flow of refugees with definitive force. Again, the source of much of the rancor stems from the days of the Battle of the Bulge. It was then that the Americans were unable to fall back enough to avoid surrenders in some cases, and some of those who surrendered were massacred in an incident that is well-documented. This sort of thing did not happen in the Winter War before Rome, when there were also extensive American surrenders. Those who surrendered then spent the war in "Hogan's Heroes" POW camps. The result of the massacre referred to was reprisals, and the Americans began to open fire on child soldiers attempting to surrender. It might be mentioned that my father Alfred de Grazia was part of the heroic resistance that turned the tide at the Battle of the Bulge, and even once quoted Surrounded Commander Bethanne Kelly Patrick, who said "Nuts" when given the ultimatum to surrender. If he was actually inside Bastogne at the time of the encirclement, that would explain a lot, but even if he wasn't... https://furtherglory.wordpress.com/#sthash.3cLrpCsV.dpuf Try "In World War II, were there 2 Americans named Alfred DeGrazia?" in the search box. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jagtig ( talk • contribs) 18:35, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
One last item; although, Alfred de Grazia's page seems to be beyond deletion, and the opinions of a close relative will tend to be biased on the favorable side, I would like to add one more note of "grand explanation," that may strike a favorable note and ring true with the intellectuals to whom this article may remain of interest long after those seeking "true glory" have long departed the page.
When the Americans found themselves in Italy in 1942, they found themselves in an unfamiliar and often very hostile environment. Physically, the south of Italy is a couple of barren mountain chains, with almost no coastal plain and very limited negotiable terrain. It is not tank country, by a long shot. Religiously and intellectually, Italy is Catholic, and the Catholic Church was supporting the Fascists (sorry, again; but, true).
Now, my father, the grandson of Joseph di Grazia, one of Garibaldi's 500, was also the nephew and son of beloved Sicilian Catholic school teachers, Alfred di Grazia and Immaculate Sister di Grazia, and thus was well situated to brave the storm of criticism that greeted the Americans that came from the Catholic Church and Italy's educated Catholic elite .
These, the rulers and thinkers of Fascist Italy "had reason," as the Duce, Benito Mussolini, had done much to "knock out" the Mafia, that super-corrupt organization that had taken over power from the Feudal overlords who were toppled in the 19nth Century, in Sicily and Southern Italy. Unfortunately, in their effort to prevent anarchy and Communism from becoming the postwar order of the day in Southern Italy, as well as to find allies against the Facsists during and after the War, the Americans restored this criminal element to power, to some degree. My father was also ready and able to participate in the leveling of force against "Priests carrying guns," the very thing his grandfather had been called on to do when Garibaldi took Rome (then the entire area of the ancient Roman province of Latium) and added it (less the Vatican) to the Italian state he created.
Okay, we're still not done. The Generals needed some sort of legitimacy; sure, the Bishop had given General Clark a precious jewel at Paestum, but they needed something more than baubles. My father, with his University of Chicago education, was able to connect them with and help explain Italy's remote and glorious past, and General Patton was pleased beyond belief. He came to think that he was Belisarius, sent to drive out the Ostrogoths, though the names wouldn't have rolled off his tongue. Allusions to the depredations the Vandals (Wends?), also found favorable audiences, though the vast majority of the Army was Protestant, and therefore might have identified with the Arian heresy that was the religion of that German tribe who had occupied the African province of Western Rome in the declining years of the Roman Empire. Perhaps, this is what is meant as psychological warfare; I don't know, really.
As stated at the outset, I'm trying to maintain a neutral POV, but doing so requires a distance that only time measured in decades or centuries will bring. As to my own defense contribution, I believe that you will find that I've been able to bring to the Americans and their allies vital information concerning futuristic weapons development, and this has been done at some considerable personal risk and cost. Should some sort of article on this matter appear in Wikipedia in the coming months or years; such as, concerning the development and use of this weapon, then it should link to Alfred de Grazia's page for background and "informational environment" reasons.
As to the use of the photo now circulating purported to be of him standing in front of a pile of severed limbs at a concentration camp; it is not the one I saw in his office at NYU, and I do not recognize the individual in the photograph. This picture is being used by Holocaust deniers and Arab sites, so it should be identified properly, and references to him deleted or separated from it, a difficult thing to do since it seems to have been labelled with his name. The picture I saw may yet appear on the web, as I didn't take any measures to hide or destroy it, despite its gruesome character, and may have even approved of its publication as a proof of the atrocities perpetrated in the Concentration Camps not knowing that Holocaust deniers, neo-Nazis and anti-Semitic and anti-American Arabs would use it for their own purposes. I suspect it went with the rest of the material in his office to the Library of Congress archives where it now resides. {{ Jagtig ( talk) 13:59, 12 August 2015 (UTC)}}
An editor who claims to be the son of the article's subject want to remove the image of de Grazia at Dachau., as he insists it is not a picture of his father. However, the picture appears in de Grazia's self-published book, A Taste of War: Soldiering in Woprld War II. It can be seen here (you have to flip forward about 7/8ths of the way down the scroll bar to the photo before page 482), where the person in the image is identified as the subject of the article. It seems highly unlikely that de Grazia would include in his own book a picture of someone else and identify it as himself. For this reason I restored the photo. BMK ( talk) 19:01, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
I think I've addressed that in my request for mediation. My father wrote constantly and incessantly about almost anything. My late mother Jill Oppenheim - de Grazia kept his papers free of errors for as long as she could. There were hired secretaries, as well. He didn't falsify anything intentionally; it's probably just the case that one photo was on the top, and the other, the real picture of him standing in front of a stack of bodies at Buchenwald was submerged. So, whoever it was, and I'm sure it wasn't him in full consciousness of what he was doing, decided to use the one at hand to illustrate his book about WWII. That picture was probably of his partner and may have been taken by him. He did so many important things for the Government and the American Army, the substitution would have seemed trivial to him. However, in a court of law, that sort of thing can be very serious, and throw everything into doubt, the so-called "falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus" rule. Everything is presumed false upon discovery of a single falsification in any given legal proceeding, though in this case it wouldn't be where sworn oral testimony was concerned. You have the two pictures; the one on Pinterest is the correct person known as Alfred de Grazia; hero, teacher, author, etc. I don't know who the person is whose picture is posted on his page as being of him in the act of liberating Auschwitz. I imagine that it must be very confusing to his descendants and relatives, though, and I'm sure he has plenty of them. Again, I saw the Buchenwald picture, and that's not it. The person in it has no resemblance to my father; his nose is long, he sports a mustache or heavy growth of beard, and he is even thinner than my father was, though my father was very thin and slight of build. My father had a very light beard, as you can see from his picture taken at an advanced age, and was clean-shaven in the WWII pictures I saw him in. He also had a short nose and a pronounced, unmistakable long upper lip, along with a noticeable over-bite. Also; Buchenwald is remembered by the fact that the bodies were ordered stacked by the Americans. Auschwitz may be remembered by the fact that the Americans manned the bulldozers that buried victims of the camp. My father may have been at Auschwitz, but I know he was at Buchenwald by the picture showing him in front of the seven-foot high stack of starved bodies. — Preceding Jagtig ( talk) 23:21, 28 August 2015 (UTC) comment added by Jagtig ( talk • contribs) 23:15, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
The picture was taken with some others, including one of me as an infant, at Stanford around 1951. He was about 32 years old. In 1964 he was about 45, and overweight and balding. He had very thin hair when he did have hair.
I would use this template for a quick restore:
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I have tried the Library of Congress for the correct photo of him at Buchenwald. Unfortunately, something has made him smile rather broadly as the picture is being taken, and that's probably why it wasn't seen as fit for publication.
Your question: To General Inquiries (Library of Congress): My father was a significant figure in the European Theater of War during WWII. He has been written up in Wikipedia, but a picture of his assistant was somehow uploaded, and labelled as him. I have seen a picture of him under the same circumstances, witnessing the carnage at Buchenwald and Auschwitz, and I am under the impression it was archived in the Library of Congress along with the letters to his wife (2000 letters) and other historical, or source, material from WWII. How can I try and trace this photo so that it might be submitted to replace the one uploaded erroneously? This, of course, is a significant historical detail that shouldn't be overlooked. Thank you. /info/en/?search=Alfred_de_Grazia You will receive acknowledgement of question receipt and an answer to your question at the e-mail address you provided. Your question will be assigned to a reference specialist and you should receive a response within five business days.
Yes, Non-free use template; but I haven't found out how to use it, yet. The picture that I want removed is gruesome; appealing to sick types, whether ant-Semites, Satanists or sadists. I've said this before. Still, there's no apparent concern for my father's family shown, and the wholesome picture I offer to be posted alongside it, and which is beyond doubt genuine, yet not all similar to the one of the individual posted in front of the holocaust victims, is being rejected. 108.24.111.82 ( talk) 20:04, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
````That's easy for you to say; you have no understanding of the work my father did, and how we were targeted repeatedly by those he offended. He was active in the de-Nazification program, as stated, and his experiences there led him into advising the Government on how to go after the Mafia, especially where government infiltration is concerned (the classic example used is the takeover of Cicero by Al Capone, but it happens everywhere). I have brothers, sisters, nephews, nieces and great-nephews, as well as cousins who have always been fearful. People like you "take over" intellectual property, with no concern for those who may have to live with the consequences. I write freely because the Mafia and corrupt politicians are highly unlikely to read Wikipedia talk pages, but by posting a tasteless picture which somehow got into one my father's publications (he has hundreds of them and couldn't know what was going on in his last years), you can only do yourself harm, and expose the entire Wikipedia to doubts. You're "in love" with a disgusting image for whatever reasons, and if you look closely it differs from the real picture of him at Buchenwald because the uniform lacks his captain's stripes. Why don't you Google images to see where the picture is being used. It's cropping up on hate and sick sites all over the world. Grow up! When I get money, I'll look for the real picture in the Library of Congress, with the intent of proving your version false. I won't be any happier seeing it posted, though, and will try to prevent that. 108.24.111.82 ( talk) 20:59, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
FYI. On Commons, I have nominated the four pictures above for deletion and reported them for probable copyright violations, since you give the author as "Alfred DeGrazia" (who you are not), and the source as "Kalos Magazine", which I believe is in some way connected with de Grazia, but the copyright for which I very much doubt that you own. As you should be aware, as other images you uploaded to Commons were deleted for this very reason, you are not allowed to upload copyrighted images to Commons unless they are properly licensed, or unless you can show to the Commons OTRS team (as your father did when he uploaded the disputed image) that you own the rights to the image. Please don't do this again. BMK ( talk) 19:27, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
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