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Quote "a man does not need to have committed adultery for her husband to have grounds to divorce her,but rather she simply has to believe that he has committed adultery." This makes no sense. Is it the husband or the wife who has grounds for device? 80.169.162.100 ( talk) 09:14, 19 January 2009 (UTC) 80.169.162.100 ( talk) 09:10, 19 January 2009 (UTC) I quote: "His approach was refreshing, ground-moving and he was not afraid to take on established precedent"
I've no problem with the latter two - but "refreshing"?? To whom exactly? That is surely unencyclopaedic and POV 125.239.238.181 08:05, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Is there something wrong with Alfred Thompson Denning, Lord Denning of Whitchurch? -- Kaihsu 15:58, 2004 May 28 (UTC)
I think it's probably most appropriate to move all the quotes to wikiquote. I think it's important to show some quotes since part of the real charm of Denning is his writing style. However, I don't think large blocks of quote really fit well here. I suspect it was a large factor in getting denied as a Feature Candidate. I hope no one objects. Please feel free to give some suggestions. Cheers! PullUpYourSocks 03:00, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Britannica has it as "Denning, Alfred Thompson Denning, Baron", though I agree that the current name is a little clumsy. The suggested move brings it into line with List of cases involving Lord Denning but out of line with other similar articles, like Quintin Hogg, Baron Hailsham of St Marylebone (though it is at the moment anyway). violet/riga (t) 19:42, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What Timrollpickering says. Near every peer is best known as "Lord Soandso". We can't put articles there, because that would make a mess. We have clear standards for articles on peers, and this fits in with that perfectly well. Note that Lord Byron is at George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron, Lord Tennyson is at Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson, and so forth. john k 15:21, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand what you are talking about. Surely Lord Denning, whom I had never heard of until this dispute, is not better known than Lord Byron or Lord Palmerston, or any of the many other Barons, Viscounts, Earls, and Marquesses known as "Lord Soandso." I see nothing in this particular case that justifies revision of our general peerage naming conventions. john k 18:12, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This doesn't make any sense. Palmerston wasn't even in the House of Lords, since he was an Irish Peer. He is famous as Lord Palmerston because that is what you call someone who is a Viscount. Similarly, Lord Byron is called Lord Byron not because his hereditary peerage was particularly important, but simply because this is what a baron is called by. It is exactly the same situation as with Lord Denning. He is famous, and is mostly known as Lord Denning. he is called Lord Denning because he was a life peer. And he is mostly known as Lord Denning, because that is what judges who are lords are mostly known by. Conrad Black became famous before he was a lord, and is mostly known as Conrad Black, although he's occasionally called Lord Black. Basically, we have two options for peers. If the peer is not known by their peerage title, you use their name, e.g. Conrad Black, Harold Macmillan, Margaret Thatcher, and so forth. If they are best known as "Lord Soandso," they go at their name and peerage title, as George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron, Alfred Denning, Baron Denning, Charlie Falconer, Baron Falconer of Thoroton, Henry John Temple, 3rd Viscount Palmerston. Those are your options. In this case, the proper place is very clear, as you yourself point out. He is known as Lord Denning. Therefore, he goes at Alfred Denning, Baron Denning. If you think this is a bad convention, you're welcome to try and get it changed (although I know that I would argue against the change). But this particular example is very clearly not one where an exception to a general rule should be made. john k 20:49, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Lord Denning is simply what he is referred to because he was a baron. This is absolutely no different from Lord Byron, which is just as recognized, and referring to a far more famous figure. This page is exactly where it should be. john k 06:00, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. violet/riga (t) 19:20, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Rather soft focus, this one, isn't it? No mention of the Birmingham Six or apalling vistas here? Generally assumed not to have been racist? By whom precisely? Not me, and not by many other members of minority communities in this country who felt Denning had nothing but contempt for us?
I agree that this is a very soft view of what was a controversial man with some unbeleivable decisions. I feel the neutrality of this article must come into question. Some of the phrasing of the article is clearly biased towards denning and the scandal that was the "birmingham six case" appears to have beenn "watered down". He sent men he knew to be innocent to jail to protect the corrupt police. Many of his other feuds with lord scarman and house of lords have been missed entirely. I feel some of the details of this article should be edited. Jackmac17 17:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Rather soft focus, not towards his political attitudes!? I find it wrong to only talk in great terms about Denning. Sure he was influencial, but also he is (and I believe rightly) heavily criticised for he sometimes arbritray decisions, his weakness for "vulnerable victims of judicial hardship". Surely he has dramaically developed the law, but there is also probably no other judge in the 20th century who has been reversed at so many instances like Denning. One could also say that Denning quite some times just ignored that law as it clearly stood to do "justice" or what he though justice to be. One can see this at the one hand as developing the law - or just as biased decisions putting the law in a mess. He is notorious for his decisions in hard cases that make bad law. I think that beside all gushing the article should mention something in this direction - at least that there are quite some people who think so .. and they are not only fools but among them very respected academics and judges. Somebody more learned than me should write something about this -- 86.142.162.207 16:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I comment as an academic lawyer, I believe Denning holds a certain place of affection although it is unclear to me exactly where he is held in affection or indeed why. It is a fair assertion that some of his best known judgements are brief and prima facie founded on 'arbitrary' reasoning. Indeed it would seem Denning did prove that hard cases indeed make bad law. Doctrines of his creation such as 'promissory estoppel', for example, which has its genesis in the High Trees case, the judiciary has later been forced to go to great lengths to obviate the potentially pernicious effects of Denning's legal innovation and restore intellectual integrity.
Furthermore, while undoubtedly a man of some significant intellect many academic lawyers would comment that he was not of the same calibre as some far less colourful mumbers of the senior judiciary of the time. Candidates for this might include Lord Wilberforce.
It is my opinion that his notoriety comes from the impression that he was a maverick, a man who in some respects at least did not conform the tenuous but widely held stereotype of a member of the judiciary. Whether or not he had a hand in creating this image is a moot point. Certainly a large part of this is as a result of his novel approach at times, possibly a sense that a normal man, dealing with situations as a normal right minded man would. But obviously I speculate. No matter, this article is certainly in need of some revision, both in terms of his legal contribution and in terms of the debate about his somewhat dislikeable vews expounded in his extra-judicial writing.
The "poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown" passage is not a very good illustration of Lord Denning's unusual prose style, as it was in fact delivered in a speech by William Pitt the elder, in the 18th century.
The wikiquote article is still at Alfred Denning, and I can't find much information to suggest either was his prefered first name. Can anyone enlighten me? — anskas 01:18, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Where did the edit relating to Wesley come from? He was always known by "Tom" during his lifetime as far as I know. Are their any sources for suggesting he went by that nickname or moniker? Legis 08:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be at Lord Denning per common names policy? -- Sumple ( Talk) 06:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the unverified fact that he was senior wrangler at Oxford, because I'm pretty sure that this term is only used at the University of Cambridge. If anyone can find evidence of this being untrue, feel free to add it back in. If he did indeed come top of the year, this would not make him Senior Wrangler, but would of course be worthy of a mention. Jetekus 09:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Anyone who pays attention to this page (and from the state of it I'm assuming those people are few and far between) will notice a page move and massive article reforms. I'll address the two points in turn.
The infobox states the marriage ended in 1942, but the Personal life section states she died in 1941. What is the truth? Best name ( talk) 12:29, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
I appreciate it can be hard to source pictures for some individuals, but is there any chance of getting one here? I feel the article's missing something as it is, almost! RichsLaw ( talk) 08:47, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Hello all, does anyone know how to get photos from Flickr.com? There are a few passable photos of Denning there. Could somebody more knowledgeable about this than me possibly get one and put it in the title box? Wik idea 03:49, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
The point is you could ask for a release to use. Wik idea 09:06, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
As per this discussion Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Odd_page_move_by_admin_-_support_for_reversion_sought, this article was renamed to Alfred Denning, Baron Denning. Please do not conduct any further name changes without discussion. Manning ( talk) 13:15, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello all, I see that someone has timeconsumingly de-italicised the 'v' in each case name. In fact this is unnecessary according to the main convention, which is called OSCOLA. This is what most leading journals and the House of Lords (or is it "Supreme Court" these days?) do. It's absolutely fine, and saves time, to simply write, for instance, Hoenig v Isaacs. And that's another thing: it'd be really good if you could link all the case names, because even if there's no page there yet, it'll increase the likelihood that somebody will create one. Cheers, Wik idea 16:16, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
England and Scotland do not have the same law though other parts of the United Kingdom -- Northern Ireland and Wales, inter alia -- do. He was not a British lawyer and judge but an English one. (As various countries of the Commonwealth, once the British Empire, have law other than English law: Sri Lanka and South Africa Dutch; the province of Quebec in Canada French.) Would it not be more accurate to put it that way, English rather than British? Masalai ( talk) 03:59, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
The "Foreign travels" section of the article states that Denning "...spoke at a student meeting at the University of Sydney; while the previous speaker received a slow hand-clap, Denning was given a standing ovation and the student law society was named the Denning Law Society in his honour". I thought this was quite odd, because the University of Sydney's law society is (naturally) called the Sydney University Law Society. I googled "Denning Law Society", and the only references I could find are to an organisation in Tanzania. Ditto "Denning Society" - there's one in the UK associated with Lincoln's Inn, but nothing in Australia. Ivar the Boneful ( talk) 16:52, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
I am more looking for guidance. It seems a convention on here that judges who have gone beyond Lord/Lady Justice do not have their High Court appointment in the infobox. While in principle, it's certainly an achievement of note, I could see that it makes the infobox rather cluttered. Is there any direction on this? Perennial Student ( talk) 23:42, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Do we know when he last attended a sitting of the Lords? 84.167.80.80 ( talk) 17:58, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Tom Denning, Baron Denning article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Tom Denning, Baron Denning has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This
level-5 vital article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Quote "a man does not need to have committed adultery for her husband to have grounds to divorce her,but rather she simply has to believe that he has committed adultery." This makes no sense. Is it the husband or the wife who has grounds for device? 80.169.162.100 ( talk) 09:14, 19 January 2009 (UTC) 80.169.162.100 ( talk) 09:10, 19 January 2009 (UTC) I quote: "His approach was refreshing, ground-moving and he was not afraid to take on established precedent"
I've no problem with the latter two - but "refreshing"?? To whom exactly? That is surely unencyclopaedic and POV 125.239.238.181 08:05, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Is there something wrong with Alfred Thompson Denning, Lord Denning of Whitchurch? -- Kaihsu 15:58, 2004 May 28 (UTC)
I think it's probably most appropriate to move all the quotes to wikiquote. I think it's important to show some quotes since part of the real charm of Denning is his writing style. However, I don't think large blocks of quote really fit well here. I suspect it was a large factor in getting denied as a Feature Candidate. I hope no one objects. Please feel free to give some suggestions. Cheers! PullUpYourSocks 03:00, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Britannica has it as "Denning, Alfred Thompson Denning, Baron", though I agree that the current name is a little clumsy. The suggested move brings it into line with List of cases involving Lord Denning but out of line with other similar articles, like Quintin Hogg, Baron Hailsham of St Marylebone (though it is at the moment anyway). violet/riga (t) 19:42, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
What Timrollpickering says. Near every peer is best known as "Lord Soandso". We can't put articles there, because that would make a mess. We have clear standards for articles on peers, and this fits in with that perfectly well. Note that Lord Byron is at George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron, Lord Tennyson is at Alfred Tennyson, 1st Baron Tennyson, and so forth. john k 15:21, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I don't understand what you are talking about. Surely Lord Denning, whom I had never heard of until this dispute, is not better known than Lord Byron or Lord Palmerston, or any of the many other Barons, Viscounts, Earls, and Marquesses known as "Lord Soandso." I see nothing in this particular case that justifies revision of our general peerage naming conventions. john k 18:12, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This doesn't make any sense. Palmerston wasn't even in the House of Lords, since he was an Irish Peer. He is famous as Lord Palmerston because that is what you call someone who is a Viscount. Similarly, Lord Byron is called Lord Byron not because his hereditary peerage was particularly important, but simply because this is what a baron is called by. It is exactly the same situation as with Lord Denning. He is famous, and is mostly known as Lord Denning. he is called Lord Denning because he was a life peer. And he is mostly known as Lord Denning, because that is what judges who are lords are mostly known by. Conrad Black became famous before he was a lord, and is mostly known as Conrad Black, although he's occasionally called Lord Black. Basically, we have two options for peers. If the peer is not known by their peerage title, you use their name, e.g. Conrad Black, Harold Macmillan, Margaret Thatcher, and so forth. If they are best known as "Lord Soandso," they go at their name and peerage title, as George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron, Alfred Denning, Baron Denning, Charlie Falconer, Baron Falconer of Thoroton, Henry John Temple, 3rd Viscount Palmerston. Those are your options. In this case, the proper place is very clear, as you yourself point out. He is known as Lord Denning. Therefore, he goes at Alfred Denning, Baron Denning. If you think this is a bad convention, you're welcome to try and get it changed (although I know that I would argue against the change). But this particular example is very clearly not one where an exception to a general rule should be made. john k 20:49, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Lord Denning is simply what he is referred to because he was a baron. This is absolutely no different from Lord Byron, which is just as recognized, and referring to a far more famous figure. This page is exactly where it should be. john k 06:00, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. violet/riga (t) 19:20, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Rather soft focus, this one, isn't it? No mention of the Birmingham Six or apalling vistas here? Generally assumed not to have been racist? By whom precisely? Not me, and not by many other members of minority communities in this country who felt Denning had nothing but contempt for us?
I agree that this is a very soft view of what was a controversial man with some unbeleivable decisions. I feel the neutrality of this article must come into question. Some of the phrasing of the article is clearly biased towards denning and the scandal that was the "birmingham six case" appears to have beenn "watered down". He sent men he knew to be innocent to jail to protect the corrupt police. Many of his other feuds with lord scarman and house of lords have been missed entirely. I feel some of the details of this article should be edited. Jackmac17 17:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Rather soft focus, not towards his political attitudes!? I find it wrong to only talk in great terms about Denning. Sure he was influencial, but also he is (and I believe rightly) heavily criticised for he sometimes arbritray decisions, his weakness for "vulnerable victims of judicial hardship". Surely he has dramaically developed the law, but there is also probably no other judge in the 20th century who has been reversed at so many instances like Denning. One could also say that Denning quite some times just ignored that law as it clearly stood to do "justice" or what he though justice to be. One can see this at the one hand as developing the law - or just as biased decisions putting the law in a mess. He is notorious for his decisions in hard cases that make bad law. I think that beside all gushing the article should mention something in this direction - at least that there are quite some people who think so .. and they are not only fools but among them very respected academics and judges. Somebody more learned than me should write something about this -- 86.142.162.207 16:14, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I comment as an academic lawyer, I believe Denning holds a certain place of affection although it is unclear to me exactly where he is held in affection or indeed why. It is a fair assertion that some of his best known judgements are brief and prima facie founded on 'arbitrary' reasoning. Indeed it would seem Denning did prove that hard cases indeed make bad law. Doctrines of his creation such as 'promissory estoppel', for example, which has its genesis in the High Trees case, the judiciary has later been forced to go to great lengths to obviate the potentially pernicious effects of Denning's legal innovation and restore intellectual integrity.
Furthermore, while undoubtedly a man of some significant intellect many academic lawyers would comment that he was not of the same calibre as some far less colourful mumbers of the senior judiciary of the time. Candidates for this might include Lord Wilberforce.
It is my opinion that his notoriety comes from the impression that he was a maverick, a man who in some respects at least did not conform the tenuous but widely held stereotype of a member of the judiciary. Whether or not he had a hand in creating this image is a moot point. Certainly a large part of this is as a result of his novel approach at times, possibly a sense that a normal man, dealing with situations as a normal right minded man would. But obviously I speculate. No matter, this article is certainly in need of some revision, both in terms of his legal contribution and in terms of the debate about his somewhat dislikeable vews expounded in his extra-judicial writing.
The "poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown" passage is not a very good illustration of Lord Denning's unusual prose style, as it was in fact delivered in a speech by William Pitt the elder, in the 18th century.
The wikiquote article is still at Alfred Denning, and I can't find much information to suggest either was his prefered first name. Can anyone enlighten me? — anskas 01:18, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Where did the edit relating to Wesley come from? He was always known by "Tom" during his lifetime as far as I know. Are their any sources for suggesting he went by that nickname or moniker? Legis 08:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be at Lord Denning per common names policy? -- Sumple ( Talk) 06:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the unverified fact that he was senior wrangler at Oxford, because I'm pretty sure that this term is only used at the University of Cambridge. If anyone can find evidence of this being untrue, feel free to add it back in. If he did indeed come top of the year, this would not make him Senior Wrangler, but would of course be worthy of a mention. Jetekus 09:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Anyone who pays attention to this page (and from the state of it I'm assuming those people are few and far between) will notice a page move and massive article reforms. I'll address the two points in turn.
The infobox states the marriage ended in 1942, but the Personal life section states she died in 1941. What is the truth? Best name ( talk) 12:29, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
I appreciate it can be hard to source pictures for some individuals, but is there any chance of getting one here? I feel the article's missing something as it is, almost! RichsLaw ( talk) 08:47, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Hello all, does anyone know how to get photos from Flickr.com? There are a few passable photos of Denning there. Could somebody more knowledgeable about this than me possibly get one and put it in the title box? Wik idea 03:49, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
The point is you could ask for a release to use. Wik idea 09:06, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
As per this discussion Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Odd_page_move_by_admin_-_support_for_reversion_sought, this article was renamed to Alfred Denning, Baron Denning. Please do not conduct any further name changes without discussion. Manning ( talk) 13:15, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello all, I see that someone has timeconsumingly de-italicised the 'v' in each case name. In fact this is unnecessary according to the main convention, which is called OSCOLA. This is what most leading journals and the House of Lords (or is it "Supreme Court" these days?) do. It's absolutely fine, and saves time, to simply write, for instance, Hoenig v Isaacs. And that's another thing: it'd be really good if you could link all the case names, because even if there's no page there yet, it'll increase the likelihood that somebody will create one. Cheers, Wik idea 16:16, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
England and Scotland do not have the same law though other parts of the United Kingdom -- Northern Ireland and Wales, inter alia -- do. He was not a British lawyer and judge but an English one. (As various countries of the Commonwealth, once the British Empire, have law other than English law: Sri Lanka and South Africa Dutch; the province of Quebec in Canada French.) Would it not be more accurate to put it that way, English rather than British? Masalai ( talk) 03:59, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
The "Foreign travels" section of the article states that Denning "...spoke at a student meeting at the University of Sydney; while the previous speaker received a slow hand-clap, Denning was given a standing ovation and the student law society was named the Denning Law Society in his honour". I thought this was quite odd, because the University of Sydney's law society is (naturally) called the Sydney University Law Society. I googled "Denning Law Society", and the only references I could find are to an organisation in Tanzania. Ditto "Denning Society" - there's one in the UK associated with Lincoln's Inn, but nothing in Australia. Ivar the Boneful ( talk) 16:52, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
I am more looking for guidance. It seems a convention on here that judges who have gone beyond Lord/Lady Justice do not have their High Court appointment in the infobox. While in principle, it's certainly an achievement of note, I could see that it makes the infobox rather cluttered. Is there any direction on this? Perennial Student ( talk) 23:42, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Do we know when he last attended a sitting of the Lords? 84.167.80.80 ( talk) 17:58, 2 January 2023 (UTC)