![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Per the last exchange in the edits, I surmise that if the idut comments are correct and sources don't have to be neutral then we can prolong the exchange that the source can and should be labelled for the point of view they hold. Such labeling is not partisan, it is factual and, therefore, is within the strictures and intent of the Wikipedia. Федоров ( talk) 18:15, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
his surname is turkic, why?
Most of the article reads like partisan leftist spiel. The American commander and the leftist pres Woodrow Wilson didn't like him? who the hell cares? Compare any supposed atrocities by Kolchak to the known horrific atrocities by the communists. Who do you think would have been better for Russia? hmmm?? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
107.39.157.81 (
talk)
04:17, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
A Red Army marching song lampooned Kolchak (as well as the attempts of foreign nations to stop the Reds):
The uniforms are British
The epaulettes from France
Japan sends tobacco, and
Kolchak leads the dance
The uniforms are tattered
The epaulettes are gone
So is the tobacco, and
Kolchak's day is done
Half the sources say 1873, another half - 1874. Many, actually say both: e.g. http://www.peoples.ru/military/admiral/kolchak/index.html (first mention is 16.11.1873, second is 16 ноября 1874. I read protocols of his interrogation in January 1920, there he answers: I was born in 1873. I'm now 46 years old. Maybe that's the truth? Panda34 19:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
The article indicates that he was of Romanian origin, however indicates no source. Other sources indicate that he was of Bosnian origin. Does anybody know where the truth lies and provide the required references? Afil ( talk) 02:42, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
-- Panda34 ( talk) 09:25, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
If some nationalist just inserted the Romanian reference on no solid grounds, then it should be deleted. On the face of it, it doesn't make sense to say he was born in Petersburg and is of Romanian origin. As well, after he graduates, he is said to be attached to some city – but no city is named earlier, so this doesnt make sense either. This is poorly written stuff and needs some sharp editing. I don't know enough factually about the topic to do the editing, but as it stands, I would say it doesn't really meet minimum standards of clarity and coherence.
Theonemacduff ( talk) 17:32, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Kolchak is not a Romanian surname, it is not common in Romania, and no Romanians believe that Admiral Kolchak was of Romanian origin--indeed, you wouldn't find one in ten, maybe not one in a hundred who have ever heard of him. This is rubbish. 169.252.4.21 ( talk) 09:05, 10 October 2017 (UTC)Staicu
Perhaps someone more capable than myself would like to consider making a search for "Admiral Koltchak" redirect to this page, and for "Koltchak" to be directed to the Kolchak disambiguation page. I'd only ever seen the "Koltchak" form, and it took me a little while to find this article. Regards Msdorney ( talk) 02:16, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Someone can explain what this is all about? Thanks. Biophys ( talk) 20:45, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
<--- See [3]. The GSE is fine to use as an illustration of what the Soviet POV was at a particular time. It's generally not a RS for "data and factual information" (about Russian, or other history). In some cases it may be used with attribution (as in "The Great Soviet Encyclopedia says that...") - though I think those cases need to be discussed first and probably require consensus. Also there's no presumption either way on whether western or Russian sources are better on Kolchak - it depends on the question "in what way?" radek ( talk) 19:47, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
No, his body was thrown into the Topka river, a small tributary to Angara. The arrest and police station where he was executed is still there and it still has the same function. The Topka is next the this building and the Angara is not.
His wife was also imprisoned, but only shortly. She survived and became a school teacher and died later of natural reasons. Stalin must have forgotten about the Kolchak family and her survival through the purges and years of terror is nothing less of a miracle.
This according to a local historian in Irkutsk, who has specialized on the history of Admiral Kolchak. As for the place of death, the local historian is backed up by Jonathan D. Smerle "Civil war in Siberia". There is a small cross in the Topka river to memorate the actual spot, where Kolchak's body was thrown into the water.
Jens Alstrup - http://www.gulag.eu —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.184.46.196 ( talk) 00:28, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
You might want to read [5] - transcript of Kolchak's interrogation in Russian. Direct question "Tell us, admiral, is she [Timireva] your lawful civil wife? is answered by Kolchak "No." -- Panda34 ( talk) 08:49, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
This is the English language version of Wikipedia and all sources should be in English and available for English readers to consult. Given that Kolchak died during the Civil War, it goes without saying that subsequent writings about him in Russia will be heavily biased and unreliable. 70 years of communism took its toll on Russian history and although they are trying to pick up some of the pieces since 1992, it will be difficult because of all of those decades of brainwashing which undoubtedly must affect the psyche and approach. Wikipedia must insist on verifyable sources *in English*. 81.131.85.152 ( talk) 09:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Sorry but this is the English language version of Wikipedia and naturally if us English-speakers wish to check soucres being cited then we must be able to read them. Is that unreasonable? It seems to me that there is controversial and possibly biased Bolshevik propaganda here and it we cannot access the sources then it is effectively unverifyable and some comments may be removed, as "anyone can edit Wikipedia". 81.131.85.152 ( talk) 18:20, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
POW camps in Siberia were built during the WWI, long before Kolchak arrived to Siberia and took power. Main population of this camps were former Austrian and German POWs, who could not return home after the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk due to chaotic revolutionary conditions and breakup of transport in Russia. They were not supporters of Soviet power, imprisoned by Kolchak regime. -- DonaldDuck ( talk) 05:46, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
It ought to be obvious that Soviet Communist sources are not acceptable sources, not neutral, with regard to the White forces, especially regarding alleged atrocities, any more than White propaganda would be regarding the Red side. The Soviet "Encyclopedia" and Sovietskaya Rossiya are not RS. cwmacdougall 20:03, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Considered reliable by whom? Given what we know about how the GSE operated and was structured, It makes not the slightest bit of sense that they would write neutrally about a white general. If you look at their own self-description, you will see that they make no effort to even appear objective or neutral. From The second edition: "The second edition of the Great Soviet Encyclopedia should elucidate widely the world-historical victories of socialism in our country, which have been attained in the U.S.S.R. in the provinces of economics, science, culture, and art. ... With exhaustive completeness it must show the superiority of socialist culture over the culture of the capitalist world. Operating on Marxist-Leninist theory, the encyclopedia should give a party criticism of contemporary bourgeois tendencies in various provinces of science and technics." Does that sound reliable?
A later foreword was even more blatant in the GSE's mission statement: "To develop in children's minds the Communist morality, ideology, and Soviet patriotism; to inspire unshakable love toward the Soviet fatherland, the Communist party, and its leaders; to propagate Bolshevik vigilance; to put an emphasis on internationalist education; to strengthen Bolshevik willpower and character, as well as courage, capacity for resisting adversity and conquering obstacles; to develop self-discipline; and to encourage physical and aesthetic culture."
According to William Benton: "It is just this simple for the Soviet board of editors. They are working under a government directive that orders them to orient their encyclopedia as sharply as a political tract. The encyclopedia was thus planned to provide the intellectual underpinning for the Soviet world offensive in the duel for men's minds. The Soviet government ordered it as a fighting propaganda weapon. And the government attaches such importance to its political role that its board of editors is chosen by and is responsible only to the high Council of Ministers itself."
/info/en/?search=Great_Soviet_Encyclopedia
There is no basis whatsoever on which to give the GSE the benefit of the doubt when it makes an uncorroborated claim about Kolchak's troops committing a massacre, given their own admitted bias and the encyclopedia's internal workings. K15555 ( talk) 02:39, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
In the German wikipedia article is stated that Kolchak was officially recognized as supreme ruler of Russia by the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. This is a contradiction to the statement in the legacy section that he did not win any diplomatic recognition in the world. Unfortunately, the only sources given in the German article that may support this are currently offline. Maybe someone knows more? -- 46.237.240.144 ( talk) 11:42, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
For the life of me, I cannot get the Provisional All-Russian government flag working properly under his allegiance category. Can anybody give it a shot?
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Drassow ( talk • contribs) 02:28, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 09:07, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
If - as the article tells us - Kolchak's body was never recovered, how could the memorial cross (which is depicted in the article) have been "placed at the resting place of Kolchak"? 92.79.101.164 ( talk) 08:36, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
Obviously this was Kolchak's official title as head of the White Army, but it's misleading not to give our readers the crucial context that he did not actually control much of Russia at any point. The previous text, in my view, was therefore insufficiently clear:
who served as Supreme Ruler of Russia from 1918 to 1920 during the Russian Civil War.
I think that the current text of the body, in the sections "Russian Civil War" and "Supreme Ruler of Russia", fully supports the more qualified language I've suggested:
who held the title of Supreme Ruler of Russia from 1918 to 1920 during the Russian Civil War, though his actual control over Russian territory was limited.
Generalrelative ( talk) 21:51, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
control over Russian territory, so perhaps there is a better way to phrase it. Maybe it is better to simply just say his control over Russia was limited, rather than just territory? Mellk ( talk) 15:26, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
his actual control over Russia was limited. Indeed, his actual control over even the territory he nominally controlled was limited, so the revision would be better on that count too. Generalrelative ( talk) 15:57, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Per the last exchange in the edits, I surmise that if the idut comments are correct and sources don't have to be neutral then we can prolong the exchange that the source can and should be labelled for the point of view they hold. Such labeling is not partisan, it is factual and, therefore, is within the strictures and intent of the Wikipedia. Федоров ( talk) 18:15, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
his surname is turkic, why?
Most of the article reads like partisan leftist spiel. The American commander and the leftist pres Woodrow Wilson didn't like him? who the hell cares? Compare any supposed atrocities by Kolchak to the known horrific atrocities by the communists. Who do you think would have been better for Russia? hmmm?? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
107.39.157.81 (
talk)
04:17, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
A Red Army marching song lampooned Kolchak (as well as the attempts of foreign nations to stop the Reds):
The uniforms are British
The epaulettes from France
Japan sends tobacco, and
Kolchak leads the dance
The uniforms are tattered
The epaulettes are gone
So is the tobacco, and
Kolchak's day is done
Half the sources say 1873, another half - 1874. Many, actually say both: e.g. http://www.peoples.ru/military/admiral/kolchak/index.html (first mention is 16.11.1873, second is 16 ноября 1874. I read protocols of his interrogation in January 1920, there he answers: I was born in 1873. I'm now 46 years old. Maybe that's the truth? Panda34 19:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
The article indicates that he was of Romanian origin, however indicates no source. Other sources indicate that he was of Bosnian origin. Does anybody know where the truth lies and provide the required references? Afil ( talk) 02:42, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
-- Panda34 ( talk) 09:25, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
If some nationalist just inserted the Romanian reference on no solid grounds, then it should be deleted. On the face of it, it doesn't make sense to say he was born in Petersburg and is of Romanian origin. As well, after he graduates, he is said to be attached to some city – but no city is named earlier, so this doesnt make sense either. This is poorly written stuff and needs some sharp editing. I don't know enough factually about the topic to do the editing, but as it stands, I would say it doesn't really meet minimum standards of clarity and coherence.
Theonemacduff ( talk) 17:32, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Kolchak is not a Romanian surname, it is not common in Romania, and no Romanians believe that Admiral Kolchak was of Romanian origin--indeed, you wouldn't find one in ten, maybe not one in a hundred who have ever heard of him. This is rubbish. 169.252.4.21 ( talk) 09:05, 10 October 2017 (UTC)Staicu
Perhaps someone more capable than myself would like to consider making a search for "Admiral Koltchak" redirect to this page, and for "Koltchak" to be directed to the Kolchak disambiguation page. I'd only ever seen the "Koltchak" form, and it took me a little while to find this article. Regards Msdorney ( talk) 02:16, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Someone can explain what this is all about? Thanks. Biophys ( talk) 20:45, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
<--- See [3]. The GSE is fine to use as an illustration of what the Soviet POV was at a particular time. It's generally not a RS for "data and factual information" (about Russian, or other history). In some cases it may be used with attribution (as in "The Great Soviet Encyclopedia says that...") - though I think those cases need to be discussed first and probably require consensus. Also there's no presumption either way on whether western or Russian sources are better on Kolchak - it depends on the question "in what way?" radek ( talk) 19:47, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
No, his body was thrown into the Topka river, a small tributary to Angara. The arrest and police station where he was executed is still there and it still has the same function. The Topka is next the this building and the Angara is not.
His wife was also imprisoned, but only shortly. She survived and became a school teacher and died later of natural reasons. Stalin must have forgotten about the Kolchak family and her survival through the purges and years of terror is nothing less of a miracle.
This according to a local historian in Irkutsk, who has specialized on the history of Admiral Kolchak. As for the place of death, the local historian is backed up by Jonathan D. Smerle "Civil war in Siberia". There is a small cross in the Topka river to memorate the actual spot, where Kolchak's body was thrown into the water.
Jens Alstrup - http://www.gulag.eu —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.184.46.196 ( talk) 00:28, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
You might want to read [5] - transcript of Kolchak's interrogation in Russian. Direct question "Tell us, admiral, is she [Timireva] your lawful civil wife? is answered by Kolchak "No." -- Panda34 ( talk) 08:49, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
This is the English language version of Wikipedia and all sources should be in English and available for English readers to consult. Given that Kolchak died during the Civil War, it goes without saying that subsequent writings about him in Russia will be heavily biased and unreliable. 70 years of communism took its toll on Russian history and although they are trying to pick up some of the pieces since 1992, it will be difficult because of all of those decades of brainwashing which undoubtedly must affect the psyche and approach. Wikipedia must insist on verifyable sources *in English*. 81.131.85.152 ( talk) 09:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Sorry but this is the English language version of Wikipedia and naturally if us English-speakers wish to check soucres being cited then we must be able to read them. Is that unreasonable? It seems to me that there is controversial and possibly biased Bolshevik propaganda here and it we cannot access the sources then it is effectively unverifyable and some comments may be removed, as "anyone can edit Wikipedia". 81.131.85.152 ( talk) 18:20, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
POW camps in Siberia were built during the WWI, long before Kolchak arrived to Siberia and took power. Main population of this camps were former Austrian and German POWs, who could not return home after the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk due to chaotic revolutionary conditions and breakup of transport in Russia. They were not supporters of Soviet power, imprisoned by Kolchak regime. -- DonaldDuck ( talk) 05:46, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
It ought to be obvious that Soviet Communist sources are not acceptable sources, not neutral, with regard to the White forces, especially regarding alleged atrocities, any more than White propaganda would be regarding the Red side. The Soviet "Encyclopedia" and Sovietskaya Rossiya are not RS. cwmacdougall 20:03, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
Considered reliable by whom? Given what we know about how the GSE operated and was structured, It makes not the slightest bit of sense that they would write neutrally about a white general. If you look at their own self-description, you will see that they make no effort to even appear objective or neutral. From The second edition: "The second edition of the Great Soviet Encyclopedia should elucidate widely the world-historical victories of socialism in our country, which have been attained in the U.S.S.R. in the provinces of economics, science, culture, and art. ... With exhaustive completeness it must show the superiority of socialist culture over the culture of the capitalist world. Operating on Marxist-Leninist theory, the encyclopedia should give a party criticism of contemporary bourgeois tendencies in various provinces of science and technics." Does that sound reliable?
A later foreword was even more blatant in the GSE's mission statement: "To develop in children's minds the Communist morality, ideology, and Soviet patriotism; to inspire unshakable love toward the Soviet fatherland, the Communist party, and its leaders; to propagate Bolshevik vigilance; to put an emphasis on internationalist education; to strengthen Bolshevik willpower and character, as well as courage, capacity for resisting adversity and conquering obstacles; to develop self-discipline; and to encourage physical and aesthetic culture."
According to William Benton: "It is just this simple for the Soviet board of editors. They are working under a government directive that orders them to orient their encyclopedia as sharply as a political tract. The encyclopedia was thus planned to provide the intellectual underpinning for the Soviet world offensive in the duel for men's minds. The Soviet government ordered it as a fighting propaganda weapon. And the government attaches such importance to its political role that its board of editors is chosen by and is responsible only to the high Council of Ministers itself."
/info/en/?search=Great_Soviet_Encyclopedia
There is no basis whatsoever on which to give the GSE the benefit of the doubt when it makes an uncorroborated claim about Kolchak's troops committing a massacre, given their own admitted bias and the encyclopedia's internal workings. K15555 ( talk) 02:39, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
In the German wikipedia article is stated that Kolchak was officially recognized as supreme ruler of Russia by the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. This is a contradiction to the statement in the legacy section that he did not win any diplomatic recognition in the world. Unfortunately, the only sources given in the German article that may support this are currently offline. Maybe someone knows more? -- 46.237.240.144 ( talk) 11:42, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
For the life of me, I cannot get the Provisional All-Russian government flag working properly under his allegiance category. Can anybody give it a shot?
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Drassow ( talk • contribs) 02:28, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 09:07, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
If - as the article tells us - Kolchak's body was never recovered, how could the memorial cross (which is depicted in the article) have been "placed at the resting place of Kolchak"? 92.79.101.164 ( talk) 08:36, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
Obviously this was Kolchak's official title as head of the White Army, but it's misleading not to give our readers the crucial context that he did not actually control much of Russia at any point. The previous text, in my view, was therefore insufficiently clear:
who served as Supreme Ruler of Russia from 1918 to 1920 during the Russian Civil War.
I think that the current text of the body, in the sections "Russian Civil War" and "Supreme Ruler of Russia", fully supports the more qualified language I've suggested:
who held the title of Supreme Ruler of Russia from 1918 to 1920 during the Russian Civil War, though his actual control over Russian territory was limited.
Generalrelative ( talk) 21:51, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
control over Russian territory, so perhaps there is a better way to phrase it. Maybe it is better to simply just say his control over Russia was limited, rather than just territory? Mellk ( talk) 15:26, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
his actual control over Russia was limited. Indeed, his actual control over even the territory he nominally controlled was limited, so the revision would be better on that count too. Generalrelative ( talk) 15:57, 18 February 2024 (UTC)