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There has been a continuous attempt at deleting sourced material and adding material that contradicts the sourced material. The general theme of these changes has been to put Estonians and Nazis in better light. This must stop. A Google translation of the Estonian language source indicates that the recent additions are not consistent with the provided sourced. This is all before we have to decide whether anti-Israel rant is at all reliable.-- brew crewer (yada, yada) 23:49, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
I hope the current compromise version is acceptable for you. -- Sander Säde 09:19, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
If one of Brewscrewer's sources puts the number at 300,000, ( [4] it seems the book by the Canadian liberal-left polemicist - does the guy even know where Jägala is located? - then I have nothing else to do than to suggest Brewcrewer re-considering the sources he's using or tidying up his bookcase. If we take the rough estimate 6 million as the number of people murdered in Holocaust, then 300,000 victims would mean 5% of the total victims attributed to Jägala KZ alone. And this when the number of victims in the infamous Sobibor camp has been estimated as 250,000! Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 17:34, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
The estimates of the Estonian International Commission for Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity are reliable and are used in other scholarly sources like this or this one. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 17:55, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
Wolfgang Benz has estimated the total number of Jewish victims in Estonia from 1941-1944 is around 8,500 “Die Gesamtzahl der jüdischen Todesopfer in Estland in den Jahren 1941-1944 beläuft sich auf etwa 8.500” the first book there. The total number of communists executed in Estonia was 4,700 (likely just shot, not sent into KZ). The numbers like 100,000-300,000 for just one single (and not really major) camp are so amazing, that I'll simply go and check information I get on the authors of such claims. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 18:02, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
The number of victims should be discussed in article on the camp. Moved material there. -- Quasimodogeniti ( talk) 06:03, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
I have been adding references from old newspaper archives using Google News. Here is something interesting, that I cannot be user as a source, as it is only a letter to the editors. I will add a link and a quote here for future reference. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 09:03, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
“ | We all know that Estonia voluntarily joined the U.S.S.R. in 1940, perhaps under pressure, but the fact remains that when the Nazis invaded Russia in 1941, Estonia had been a Soviet Republic for over a year. | ” |
— F. Chevallier, "Cites Discrepancies in Laak's Story". Montreal Gazette: 6. September 23, 1960. |
There is an photo available here:
I do not know if it can be used though. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 09:32, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
An editor deleted as nonsense the referenced (in the body) information that he was viewed as responsible for killing 100,000 people. The editor suggested that it is called for only in the concentration camp article. I see no basis for that, and have reverted. The info is sourced. As it is set forth.-- Epeefleche ( talk) 15:45, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
I have created a section in the article The Holocaust in Estonia on the Number of victims. There is also a discussion on the talk page at Talk:The Holocaust in Estonia#Number of Holocaust victims. Why do we not all go there to discuss this issue! -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 09:56, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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There has been a continuous attempt at deleting sourced material and adding material that contradicts the sourced material. The general theme of these changes has been to put Estonians and Nazis in better light. This must stop. A Google translation of the Estonian language source indicates that the recent additions are not consistent with the provided sourced. This is all before we have to decide whether anti-Israel rant is at all reliable.-- brew crewer (yada, yada) 23:49, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
I hope the current compromise version is acceptable for you. -- Sander Säde 09:19, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
If one of Brewscrewer's sources puts the number at 300,000, ( [4] it seems the book by the Canadian liberal-left polemicist - does the guy even know where Jägala is located? - then I have nothing else to do than to suggest Brewcrewer re-considering the sources he's using or tidying up his bookcase. If we take the rough estimate 6 million as the number of people murdered in Holocaust, then 300,000 victims would mean 5% of the total victims attributed to Jägala KZ alone. And this when the number of victims in the infamous Sobibor camp has been estimated as 250,000! Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 17:34, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
The estimates of the Estonian International Commission for Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity are reliable and are used in other scholarly sources like this or this one. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 17:55, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
Wolfgang Benz has estimated the total number of Jewish victims in Estonia from 1941-1944 is around 8,500 “Die Gesamtzahl der jüdischen Todesopfer in Estland in den Jahren 1941-1944 beläuft sich auf etwa 8.500” the first book there. The total number of communists executed in Estonia was 4,700 (likely just shot, not sent into KZ). The numbers like 100,000-300,000 for just one single (and not really major) camp are so amazing, that I'll simply go and check information I get on the authors of such claims. Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (t) 18:02, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
The number of victims should be discussed in article on the camp. Moved material there. -- Quasimodogeniti ( talk) 06:03, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
I have been adding references from old newspaper archives using Google News. Here is something interesting, that I cannot be user as a source, as it is only a letter to the editors. I will add a link and a quote here for future reference. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 09:03, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
“ | We all know that Estonia voluntarily joined the U.S.S.R. in 1940, perhaps under pressure, but the fact remains that when the Nazis invaded Russia in 1941, Estonia had been a Soviet Republic for over a year. | ” |
— F. Chevallier, "Cites Discrepancies in Laak's Story". Montreal Gazette: 6. September 23, 1960. |
There is an photo available here:
I do not know if it can be used though. -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 09:32, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
An editor deleted as nonsense the referenced (in the body) information that he was viewed as responsible for killing 100,000 people. The editor suggested that it is called for only in the concentration camp article. I see no basis for that, and have reverted. The info is sourced. As it is set forth.-- Epeefleche ( talk) 15:45, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
I have created a section in the article The Holocaust in Estonia on the Number of victims. There is also a discussion on the talk page at Talk:The Holocaust in Estonia#Number of Holocaust victims. Why do we not all go there to discuss this issue! -- Petri Krohn ( talk) 09:56, 18 August 2010 (UTC)