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Archive 1 |
I'm looking at my copy of Thucydides and seeing something completely different than the interpretation being noted here.
Article as is: "Thucydides reprehends the Athenian statesman for his political conduct and motives. According to the historian, Alcibiades, being "exceedingly ambitious", proposed the expedition in Sicily in order "to gain in wealth and reputation by means of his successes". Alcibiades is held responsible by Thucydides for the destruction of Athens, since "his habits gave offence to every one, and caused them to commit affairs to other hands, and thus before long to ruin the city"."
Thucydides doesn't blame Alcibiades for the downfall of Athens - he blames the Athenians! (That's the purpose behind the Peisistratid digression, but that's another topic.) What Thucydides is saying is that Alcibiades was an excellent commander, but since people didn't like his habits, those habits caused the people of Athens ("them") to put other people in charge - a decision which ruined the city. It's the Athenians, not Alcibiades, who are blamed.
I'm pretty new to Wikipedia editing, and am thus reluctant to make a change to the article that isn't a basic simple one. If someone else feels that this merits a rewrite, the relevant sections of Thucydides are History of the Peloponnesian War, 6.2-6.5. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.59.170.168 ( talk) 20:01, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
It appears to me that this article has a dangerous reliance upon a historical source (i.e Kagan). It has a good use of the 'primary' sources i.e Thucydides, Plutarch, but Kagen seems to be referenced quite a lot considering the fact that he does not represent an impartial or primary account. He needs to be offset by the opinions of some other Historians on Alkibiades during this time. I'd do it myself, but i'm busy at the moment. Maybe i'll do it later. - TiberiusInvictus
i'm just really surprised that someone who lived more than two thousand years ago, is subject to a "neutrality disputed" tag. I think that's fucking great, and very much in line with the subject.
I'm surprised that there's no reference to Walter Ellis' book Alcibiades (1989), which is perhaps the only recent scholarly work in English entirely devoted to the topic. The number of footnotes in the article seems to belie the true extent to which its author actually did his/her homework. Isokrates 21:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
My friend, I cannot speak on behalf of Dmcheatw, but I can speak on behalf of myself. I'd prefer your judgement to be a bit more modest. If you want to see "the true extent to which its author actually did his/her homework", see the references mentioned. If you search and find all these sources, you'll understand how I did my homework. After all, I live in Greece and I'm not obliged to know all the English-written about Alcibiades. Do you know all the Greek books about him? Thanks for referring Ellis' work. I'll search it, but try not to underestimate the work of others. In this way, you're just underestimating you self in terms of judgment and careful reading.-- Yannismarou 14:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
The use of this word in the first paragraph must be a mistake surely?
"His nature is so beautiful, golden, divine, and wonderful within that everything he commands surely must be obeyed, even like the voice of good."
Should that be "voice of good" or "voice of God" or "god" with a lower case "g"? Ginnna 21:06, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to revert back the version before Dmcheatw's additions were removed. Although his new sections were a little disorganized,he put a lot of good information. I'll go through and clean it up a little, and convert his parenthetical citations into footnotes. Let me know if anybody objects to this, but I think the edits were good and it just needs a little cleanup. -- Robth Talk 20:33, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
hello, i was wondering if you guys could put a work in progress tag on the article and let me resume editing it later in the week. right now i am busy but when i get the time i will add to or create sections on alcibiades in sparta, his influence on the persians, his defection back to athens, his military sucesses during this time, his loss at notium, and finally his life after this defeat, his advice/offer to the athenian commanders before their defeat at agospomtami(sp), and then his death. The sources I have used/will use are thucydides, plutarch and d. kagan, which i will provide the bibliography for also in MLA format.
i meant to clean up what i had already added, but again for the next few days i will be too busy. basically what i want to write is already in the article, i just have a lot of elaboration to add. once i'm done u guys can feel free to edit it for brevity and grammatical/spelling errors as i realize i am pretty disorganized and the amount of info may be too much for an introductory encyclopedia article. also it would be appreciated if future editors would look for bias in my writings as i am pretty pro-alcibiades.
thank you, dmcheatw. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.76.204.47 ( talk • contribs) 28 May 2006.
I think this article (or at least the lead paragraph, which is all I've read so far) needs to be made somewhat more neutral. I know we are all Athenian patriots here, and this is a highly sensitive issue, but Wikipedia is still an encyclopedia, and the man has been dead for thousands of years. — Vivacissamamente 02:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Whilst reading 'Greek History' by Oman, he speaks of Alcibiades being accused of destroying the Hermai statues, mentioned in this article too, but further to this when Alcibiades is in or on his way to Syracuse he is accused of profaning the Elusian Mysteries by his enemies in order to implicate him in the Hermai destruction. My question is 'What were the Elusian Mysteries?' T.Boulton 21/7/2006
I think it's Eleusinian Mysteries. Wikipedia has an article on it, but an internet or library search may also help. — Vivacissamamente
Nope, Elusian. Thucydides makes reference to it, too. Some sort of cult, but I don't think we have any more information than that.
The lede paragraph is totally inacceptable in terms of NPOV. It is full of caracterizations and judgments, which are against the basic rules of Wikipedia. As I've also understood submitting Pericles for FA, Wikipedia is not like Britannica. Hence, expressions and words like:
The editor of the lede section seems to ignore that Alcibiades was a charismatic strategos, a military leader who never lost a battle! Hence, I donot think he owed the successes of his meteoric career purely to personal magnetism and an almost incredible capacity for deception. He owed his success to his personal charisma and genious, according to my POV! Just think what he would have achieved he had led his army in Syracuse and if he was victorious (something possible for a military genious like him). He would have created an Athenian Empire, before the creation of the Macedonian one. We cannot hold Alcibiades responsible for Nicias horrible incapacity!
Anyway, I intend to rewrite the lede section according to WP rules and I donot think that there is any objection, since this lede section is the definition of POV!-- Yannismarou 15:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
OK ... And I promise that I'll never again intervene in such important matters without previously consulting you.-- Yannismarou 11:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Dmcheatw, why don't you include in the article Kagan's criticism that "without Thrasybulus alcibiades never enjoyed major military sucess, but without alcibiades Thrasybulus was a first rate general."? I think the section "assessments" I added is a good place to citate that. I would do it myself, but I donot have access to Kagan's book.-- Yannismarou 07:48, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
This article was graded on 7 criteria:
Congratulations! All I can say is: Wow. Those references are crazy! Push it to FAC as soon as possible. -- PresN 06:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
"It is argued however that, had he been allowed to continue in command of the Sicilian Expedition, he would have overruled the policy of Nicias and prevented the catastrophe of 413 BC"
It's completely unclear which policy of Nicias this is referring to.
"Alcibiades met with them in secret before they were to speak to ecclesia (the Athenian Assembly) and told them that the Assembly is haughty and has great ambitions."
Tense, and can you say 'ecclesia' without a definite article? Again in "Thereby, ecclesia deposed Phrynichus" — and it's an odd use of 'thereby.' I've replaced it in one other instance. I'd phrase this simply 'The ecclesia deposed...'
"Alcibiades was to win over Tissaphernes and the King"
...of Sparta?
I'm sure the article's being revised at the moment, but too much of the English doesn't flow. There are a lot of oddly-ordered sentences and instances of the word 'however' (is that word inevitable in history?), and a few disjointed points with several sentences before the conclusion of the main point.
Njál 18:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I haven't had a chance to look all of this over yet (although it's clear that you've done another great job on this, Yannismarou), but I just did a copyedit/rewrite of the lead. Does it look good to you? -- Robth Talk 02:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I would like to add this work as an illustration for the last section of the article. Any opinions? Haiduc 04:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
"early 410s BC" 1. What does that mean, when counting backwards? Does that mean ~420-415, ~415-410 or ~410-405? Since others may also have the same question, it might be worth rewriting. 2. It would be far more encyclopedic, accurate, and less POV to use BCE than BC. Sad mouse 00:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Since no one had any objection, I made the dates encyclopedic. I am still unclear what "early 410s" mean. Sad mouse 18:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I heard the Alcibiades was a drunkard. Is it true? Are there any sources that may support this? Kpalion 18:37, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
To whoever was instrumental in bring this article up to FA status, my congratulations, this is perhaps the best written, beat researched, best formatted article I think I have ever read on wikipedia. - PocklingtonDan 21:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
This article is impressive and worthy of its FA status. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean it can't be improved. Here are some issues I noticed reading the lead section:
Is it only me, or is the pronunciation in IPA slightly misleading? This is, how the name (if transcribed from Latin, i.e. with a "c" instead of a "k") is usually pronounced by English-speaking people, right? However, this gives the impression, this would have been the pronunciation of his name in his time! -- 82.135.28.22 12:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Um, you've both missed 82.135.28.22's point, which is that the article is giving the pronunciation of "Alcibiades" in contemporary English, but the article looks as if it's saying that was the pronunciation in ancient Greek. --Akhilleus ( talk) 04:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest a change of the footnote style from [a] to [a]
and
a. ^ text
to
^ a: text
Any objections?
Wandalstouring
03:11, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
But applying a judgement on the motivations of the sources only on one phrase, this part really seems to push the idea that the relationship was not as chaste as the sources put it. I think it should be rephrased so the 'idealised' applies to all of it But I don't know it well enough to want to risk implying something incorrect. Courtesy of Gavla 15:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
In the early years section, it says his mother's father was Megacles. A couple of sentences later, it says his maternal grandfather was also named Alcibiades. Those statements seem to contradict one another. Also, there are a lot of vague pronouns in that section at least. In the reference "his maternal grandmother," maybe the 'his' refers to one of the other people named in the previous sentence. 69.116.90.247 23:37, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I recently read an interesting article on this subject by Bernadotte Perrin: "The Death of Alcibiades", Transactions and Proceedings of the American Philological Association 37 (1906): pp. 25-37. In light of it, I think the description in the Alcibiades Wikiarticle of the details of his death ought to be qualified by a cautionary remark (whether in the notes or the article's body) as to the real condition of the evidence we possess. The current version presents Plutarch's account as though it were solid, reliable fact.
Perrin, however, believes that our only solid evidence for the details of Alcibiades' death are to be found in Isocrates' encomium of Alcibiades which he wrote (in 397) for Alcibiades' son: "Did not the Lacedaemonians and Lysander exert themselves as much to cause his death as to bring about the downfall of your dominion, in the belief that they could not be sure of the city's loyalty if they demolished her walls unless they should also destroy the man who could rebuild them?" (Isocrates 16.40). Perrin argues (pp. 27-28; cf. 29-30) that if a relationship with Pharnabazus was known in the decade following Alcibiades’ death, it would have been talked of in the Isocrates speech and Lysias would have talked of it in his denunciation of Alcibiades' son (in 395).
Perrin argues, "No one but the perpetrators of the murder knew where or how it was committed, and the nature of the deed was such – a treacherous assassination – that the leading actors in it would take pains rather to conceal than to make known the facts. And though the murderers may have been many, the victim, in all probability, was alone. There is, at least, no conceivable reason why any attendants whom Alcibiades may have had with him should have been allowed to escape" (pp. 26-27). Perrin concludes, "It is reasonably safe to assume that in 395…little was known at Athens about the circumstances of that death, beyond the general features adduced by Isocrates: Alcibiades had fallen victim to the intrigues of the Lacedaemonians and Lysander" (p. 28). Perrin explains that, by the time of Macedonian supremacy, almost two generations later, Alcibiades' career had "become one of surpassing interest" (p. 26), especially since "the prevailing attitude toward the memory of Alcibiades was one of admiration for his great powers" (p. 28); Perrin concludes that, when in this period Ephorus and Theopompus each wrote a Hellenica (on which later writers based their accounts of Alcibiades' death), "…in the absence of authentic details of his death, romantic details were more or less freely invented" (p. 26).
Is anyone aware of more recent scholarship that speaks specifically to this issue? If not, then maybe a cautionary remark about this in the Wikiarticle is in order. Isokrates 18:56, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
The quote by Eupolis regarding Alcibiades' oratorical skills seems, from my reading, to refer to Phaeax rather than Alcibiades. Here's the quote from the Dryden translation: "Phaeax was but a rising statesman like Alcibiades; he was descended from noble ancestors, but was his inferior, as in many other things, so, principally, in eloquence. He possessed rather the art of persuading in private conversation than of debate before the people, and was, as Eupolis said of him--'The best of talkers, and of speakers worst.'" Plutarch states several times before this that Alcibiades was extremely eloquent, making this quote unlikely to refer to Alcibiades. Someone should check this passage against another translation and remove the statement if necessary.-- Coriolanus291 16:58, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I thought the phrase "Alcibiades enjoys an important afterlife in art" could be interpreted as having a certain philosophical presupposition behind it (i.e. POV), so I changed it to the more neutral "Long after his death, Alcibiades continues to appear in art". Just trying to avoid someone being put off by this metaphorical use of the word "afterlife". PeterMottola ( talk) 21:41, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm thinking of putting links from the Citations to the primary and secondary sources, as at Che Guevara and as described/discussed here. Comments? ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 02:47, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
This painting and caption have been placed in the article. According to Prettejohn's definitive catalogue of Alma-Tadema "Georg Ebbers speculated that the youthful figure at the extreme left was Alcibiades." (p.146) Ebbers wrote a book on Alma-Tadema in 1886. So this seems to be the speculation of one writer, not a commonly accepted fact. Paul B ( talk) 13:48, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I added E. F. Benson's Biography of Alcibiades to the article for further reading. It is a highly engaging account of his life and times and it is one of the best biographical sources in print in addition to Steven Forde's The Ambition to Rule: Alcibiades and the Politics of Imperialism in Thucydides, 1989, and Walter Ellis's Alcibiades, 1989. Hellocheeky ( talk) 23:48, 15 December 2010 (UTC) The inclusion of an important secondary source that I added was reverted without justification. It is difficult to envisage what justification there could be. As Frank Northen Magill, Christina J. Moose, and Alison Aves clearly state in the Dictionary of World Biography, 1998, Benson's Life of Alcibiades is "The standard biography or Alcibiades ... written in large part from primary materials, especially Thucydides and Plutarch. ... Should appeal to scholars and students alike." Or Richard Louth in Andrew Traver, ed. states in From Polis to Empire—The Ancient World, c. 800 B.C.-A.D. 500: A Biographical Dictionary, 2002, Benson's Life of Alcibiades is a key biography on Alcibiades. Hellocheeky ( talk) 22:23, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Referring to Alcibiades in the top section as if these three words were all just parts of his name is misleading in my view, as Cleiniou is a patronymic (and it's actually genitive in the Greek, not even a real patronymic) and Scambonides is simply his deme's name. As far as I can see, this is not consistent with other Athenian politicians on Wikipedia. If no-one objects within a week or so I will amend this. Dionysodorus ( talk) 16:44, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Within the timeline it shows that Socrates saved Alcibiades in 434BC, while this actually occurred in 432BC during the Battle of Potidaea, which is correctly mentioned in the article. Regards, Ratipok ( talk) 12:40, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I'm looking at my copy of Thucydides and seeing something completely different than the interpretation being noted here.
Article as is: "Thucydides reprehends the Athenian statesman for his political conduct and motives. According to the historian, Alcibiades, being "exceedingly ambitious", proposed the expedition in Sicily in order "to gain in wealth and reputation by means of his successes". Alcibiades is held responsible by Thucydides for the destruction of Athens, since "his habits gave offence to every one, and caused them to commit affairs to other hands, and thus before long to ruin the city"."
Thucydides doesn't blame Alcibiades for the downfall of Athens - he blames the Athenians! (That's the purpose behind the Peisistratid digression, but that's another topic.) What Thucydides is saying is that Alcibiades was an excellent commander, but since people didn't like his habits, those habits caused the people of Athens ("them") to put other people in charge - a decision which ruined the city. It's the Athenians, not Alcibiades, who are blamed.
I'm pretty new to Wikipedia editing, and am thus reluctant to make a change to the article that isn't a basic simple one. If someone else feels that this merits a rewrite, the relevant sections of Thucydides are History of the Peloponnesian War, 6.2-6.5. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.59.170.168 ( talk) 20:01, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
It appears to me that this article has a dangerous reliance upon a historical source (i.e Kagan). It has a good use of the 'primary' sources i.e Thucydides, Plutarch, but Kagen seems to be referenced quite a lot considering the fact that he does not represent an impartial or primary account. He needs to be offset by the opinions of some other Historians on Alkibiades during this time. I'd do it myself, but i'm busy at the moment. Maybe i'll do it later. - TiberiusInvictus
i'm just really surprised that someone who lived more than two thousand years ago, is subject to a "neutrality disputed" tag. I think that's fucking great, and very much in line with the subject.
I'm surprised that there's no reference to Walter Ellis' book Alcibiades (1989), which is perhaps the only recent scholarly work in English entirely devoted to the topic. The number of footnotes in the article seems to belie the true extent to which its author actually did his/her homework. Isokrates 21:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
My friend, I cannot speak on behalf of Dmcheatw, but I can speak on behalf of myself. I'd prefer your judgement to be a bit more modest. If you want to see "the true extent to which its author actually did his/her homework", see the references mentioned. If you search and find all these sources, you'll understand how I did my homework. After all, I live in Greece and I'm not obliged to know all the English-written about Alcibiades. Do you know all the Greek books about him? Thanks for referring Ellis' work. I'll search it, but try not to underestimate the work of others. In this way, you're just underestimating you self in terms of judgment and careful reading.-- Yannismarou 14:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
The use of this word in the first paragraph must be a mistake surely?
"His nature is so beautiful, golden, divine, and wonderful within that everything he commands surely must be obeyed, even like the voice of good."
Should that be "voice of good" or "voice of God" or "god" with a lower case "g"? Ginnna 21:06, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to revert back the version before Dmcheatw's additions were removed. Although his new sections were a little disorganized,he put a lot of good information. I'll go through and clean it up a little, and convert his parenthetical citations into footnotes. Let me know if anybody objects to this, but I think the edits were good and it just needs a little cleanup. -- Robth Talk 20:33, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
hello, i was wondering if you guys could put a work in progress tag on the article and let me resume editing it later in the week. right now i am busy but when i get the time i will add to or create sections on alcibiades in sparta, his influence on the persians, his defection back to athens, his military sucesses during this time, his loss at notium, and finally his life after this defeat, his advice/offer to the athenian commanders before their defeat at agospomtami(sp), and then his death. The sources I have used/will use are thucydides, plutarch and d. kagan, which i will provide the bibliography for also in MLA format.
i meant to clean up what i had already added, but again for the next few days i will be too busy. basically what i want to write is already in the article, i just have a lot of elaboration to add. once i'm done u guys can feel free to edit it for brevity and grammatical/spelling errors as i realize i am pretty disorganized and the amount of info may be too much for an introductory encyclopedia article. also it would be appreciated if future editors would look for bias in my writings as i am pretty pro-alcibiades.
thank you, dmcheatw. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.76.204.47 ( talk • contribs) 28 May 2006.
I think this article (or at least the lead paragraph, which is all I've read so far) needs to be made somewhat more neutral. I know we are all Athenian patriots here, and this is a highly sensitive issue, but Wikipedia is still an encyclopedia, and the man has been dead for thousands of years. — Vivacissamamente 02:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Whilst reading 'Greek History' by Oman, he speaks of Alcibiades being accused of destroying the Hermai statues, mentioned in this article too, but further to this when Alcibiades is in or on his way to Syracuse he is accused of profaning the Elusian Mysteries by his enemies in order to implicate him in the Hermai destruction. My question is 'What were the Elusian Mysteries?' T.Boulton 21/7/2006
I think it's Eleusinian Mysteries. Wikipedia has an article on it, but an internet or library search may also help. — Vivacissamamente
Nope, Elusian. Thucydides makes reference to it, too. Some sort of cult, but I don't think we have any more information than that.
The lede paragraph is totally inacceptable in terms of NPOV. It is full of caracterizations and judgments, which are against the basic rules of Wikipedia. As I've also understood submitting Pericles for FA, Wikipedia is not like Britannica. Hence, expressions and words like:
The editor of the lede section seems to ignore that Alcibiades was a charismatic strategos, a military leader who never lost a battle! Hence, I donot think he owed the successes of his meteoric career purely to personal magnetism and an almost incredible capacity for deception. He owed his success to his personal charisma and genious, according to my POV! Just think what he would have achieved he had led his army in Syracuse and if he was victorious (something possible for a military genious like him). He would have created an Athenian Empire, before the creation of the Macedonian one. We cannot hold Alcibiades responsible for Nicias horrible incapacity!
Anyway, I intend to rewrite the lede section according to WP rules and I donot think that there is any objection, since this lede section is the definition of POV!-- Yannismarou 15:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
OK ... And I promise that I'll never again intervene in such important matters without previously consulting you.-- Yannismarou 11:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Dmcheatw, why don't you include in the article Kagan's criticism that "without Thrasybulus alcibiades never enjoyed major military sucess, but without alcibiades Thrasybulus was a first rate general."? I think the section "assessments" I added is a good place to citate that. I would do it myself, but I donot have access to Kagan's book.-- Yannismarou 07:48, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
This article was graded on 7 criteria:
Congratulations! All I can say is: Wow. Those references are crazy! Push it to FAC as soon as possible. -- PresN 06:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
"It is argued however that, had he been allowed to continue in command of the Sicilian Expedition, he would have overruled the policy of Nicias and prevented the catastrophe of 413 BC"
It's completely unclear which policy of Nicias this is referring to.
"Alcibiades met with them in secret before they were to speak to ecclesia (the Athenian Assembly) and told them that the Assembly is haughty and has great ambitions."
Tense, and can you say 'ecclesia' without a definite article? Again in "Thereby, ecclesia deposed Phrynichus" — and it's an odd use of 'thereby.' I've replaced it in one other instance. I'd phrase this simply 'The ecclesia deposed...'
"Alcibiades was to win over Tissaphernes and the King"
...of Sparta?
I'm sure the article's being revised at the moment, but too much of the English doesn't flow. There are a lot of oddly-ordered sentences and instances of the word 'however' (is that word inevitable in history?), and a few disjointed points with several sentences before the conclusion of the main point.
Njál 18:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I haven't had a chance to look all of this over yet (although it's clear that you've done another great job on this, Yannismarou), but I just did a copyedit/rewrite of the lead. Does it look good to you? -- Robth Talk 02:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I would like to add this work as an illustration for the last section of the article. Any opinions? Haiduc 04:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
"early 410s BC" 1. What does that mean, when counting backwards? Does that mean ~420-415, ~415-410 or ~410-405? Since others may also have the same question, it might be worth rewriting. 2. It would be far more encyclopedic, accurate, and less POV to use BCE than BC. Sad mouse 00:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Since no one had any objection, I made the dates encyclopedic. I am still unclear what "early 410s" mean. Sad mouse 18:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I heard the Alcibiades was a drunkard. Is it true? Are there any sources that may support this? Kpalion 18:37, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
To whoever was instrumental in bring this article up to FA status, my congratulations, this is perhaps the best written, beat researched, best formatted article I think I have ever read on wikipedia. - PocklingtonDan 21:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
This article is impressive and worthy of its FA status. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean it can't be improved. Here are some issues I noticed reading the lead section:
Is it only me, or is the pronunciation in IPA slightly misleading? This is, how the name (if transcribed from Latin, i.e. with a "c" instead of a "k") is usually pronounced by English-speaking people, right? However, this gives the impression, this would have been the pronunciation of his name in his time! -- 82.135.28.22 12:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Um, you've both missed 82.135.28.22's point, which is that the article is giving the pronunciation of "Alcibiades" in contemporary English, but the article looks as if it's saying that was the pronunciation in ancient Greek. --Akhilleus ( talk) 04:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest a change of the footnote style from [a] to [a]
and
a. ^ text
to
^ a: text
Any objections?
Wandalstouring
03:11, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
But applying a judgement on the motivations of the sources only on one phrase, this part really seems to push the idea that the relationship was not as chaste as the sources put it. I think it should be rephrased so the 'idealised' applies to all of it But I don't know it well enough to want to risk implying something incorrect. Courtesy of Gavla 15:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
In the early years section, it says his mother's father was Megacles. A couple of sentences later, it says his maternal grandfather was also named Alcibiades. Those statements seem to contradict one another. Also, there are a lot of vague pronouns in that section at least. In the reference "his maternal grandmother," maybe the 'his' refers to one of the other people named in the previous sentence. 69.116.90.247 23:37, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I recently read an interesting article on this subject by Bernadotte Perrin: "The Death of Alcibiades", Transactions and Proceedings of the American Philological Association 37 (1906): pp. 25-37. In light of it, I think the description in the Alcibiades Wikiarticle of the details of his death ought to be qualified by a cautionary remark (whether in the notes or the article's body) as to the real condition of the evidence we possess. The current version presents Plutarch's account as though it were solid, reliable fact.
Perrin, however, believes that our only solid evidence for the details of Alcibiades' death are to be found in Isocrates' encomium of Alcibiades which he wrote (in 397) for Alcibiades' son: "Did not the Lacedaemonians and Lysander exert themselves as much to cause his death as to bring about the downfall of your dominion, in the belief that they could not be sure of the city's loyalty if they demolished her walls unless they should also destroy the man who could rebuild them?" (Isocrates 16.40). Perrin argues (pp. 27-28; cf. 29-30) that if a relationship with Pharnabazus was known in the decade following Alcibiades’ death, it would have been talked of in the Isocrates speech and Lysias would have talked of it in his denunciation of Alcibiades' son (in 395).
Perrin argues, "No one but the perpetrators of the murder knew where or how it was committed, and the nature of the deed was such – a treacherous assassination – that the leading actors in it would take pains rather to conceal than to make known the facts. And though the murderers may have been many, the victim, in all probability, was alone. There is, at least, no conceivable reason why any attendants whom Alcibiades may have had with him should have been allowed to escape" (pp. 26-27). Perrin concludes, "It is reasonably safe to assume that in 395…little was known at Athens about the circumstances of that death, beyond the general features adduced by Isocrates: Alcibiades had fallen victim to the intrigues of the Lacedaemonians and Lysander" (p. 28). Perrin explains that, by the time of Macedonian supremacy, almost two generations later, Alcibiades' career had "become one of surpassing interest" (p. 26), especially since "the prevailing attitude toward the memory of Alcibiades was one of admiration for his great powers" (p. 28); Perrin concludes that, when in this period Ephorus and Theopompus each wrote a Hellenica (on which later writers based their accounts of Alcibiades' death), "…in the absence of authentic details of his death, romantic details were more or less freely invented" (p. 26).
Is anyone aware of more recent scholarship that speaks specifically to this issue? If not, then maybe a cautionary remark about this in the Wikiarticle is in order. Isokrates 18:56, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
The quote by Eupolis regarding Alcibiades' oratorical skills seems, from my reading, to refer to Phaeax rather than Alcibiades. Here's the quote from the Dryden translation: "Phaeax was but a rising statesman like Alcibiades; he was descended from noble ancestors, but was his inferior, as in many other things, so, principally, in eloquence. He possessed rather the art of persuading in private conversation than of debate before the people, and was, as Eupolis said of him--'The best of talkers, and of speakers worst.'" Plutarch states several times before this that Alcibiades was extremely eloquent, making this quote unlikely to refer to Alcibiades. Someone should check this passage against another translation and remove the statement if necessary.-- Coriolanus291 16:58, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I thought the phrase "Alcibiades enjoys an important afterlife in art" could be interpreted as having a certain philosophical presupposition behind it (i.e. POV), so I changed it to the more neutral "Long after his death, Alcibiades continues to appear in art". Just trying to avoid someone being put off by this metaphorical use of the word "afterlife". PeterMottola ( talk) 21:41, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm thinking of putting links from the Citations to the primary and secondary sources, as at Che Guevara and as described/discussed here. Comments? ☺ Coppertwig ( talk) 02:47, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
This painting and caption have been placed in the article. According to Prettejohn's definitive catalogue of Alma-Tadema "Georg Ebbers speculated that the youthful figure at the extreme left was Alcibiades." (p.146) Ebbers wrote a book on Alma-Tadema in 1886. So this seems to be the speculation of one writer, not a commonly accepted fact. Paul B ( talk) 13:48, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I added E. F. Benson's Biography of Alcibiades to the article for further reading. It is a highly engaging account of his life and times and it is one of the best biographical sources in print in addition to Steven Forde's The Ambition to Rule: Alcibiades and the Politics of Imperialism in Thucydides, 1989, and Walter Ellis's Alcibiades, 1989. Hellocheeky ( talk) 23:48, 15 December 2010 (UTC) The inclusion of an important secondary source that I added was reverted without justification. It is difficult to envisage what justification there could be. As Frank Northen Magill, Christina J. Moose, and Alison Aves clearly state in the Dictionary of World Biography, 1998, Benson's Life of Alcibiades is "The standard biography or Alcibiades ... written in large part from primary materials, especially Thucydides and Plutarch. ... Should appeal to scholars and students alike." Or Richard Louth in Andrew Traver, ed. states in From Polis to Empire—The Ancient World, c. 800 B.C.-A.D. 500: A Biographical Dictionary, 2002, Benson's Life of Alcibiades is a key biography on Alcibiades. Hellocheeky ( talk) 22:23, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Referring to Alcibiades in the top section as if these three words were all just parts of his name is misleading in my view, as Cleiniou is a patronymic (and it's actually genitive in the Greek, not even a real patronymic) and Scambonides is simply his deme's name. As far as I can see, this is not consistent with other Athenian politicians on Wikipedia. If no-one objects within a week or so I will amend this. Dionysodorus ( talk) 16:44, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Within the timeline it shows that Socrates saved Alcibiades in 434BC, while this actually occurred in 432BC during the Battle of Potidaea, which is correctly mentioned in the article. Regards, Ratipok ( talk) 12:40, 23 July 2014 (UTC)