This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
In the header it's mentioned that albatrosses have the largest wingspan of all birds, but no average figure is given. -- FermatSim 19:46, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
The etymology is patently wrong. The proposed arabic word is obviously not arabic at all. I'm not 100% clear on the correct etymology, but according to my Random House/Webster dictionary the arabic root is al-ghattaas (I don't know how to write arabic in wikipedia, the 't' is actually a "taw" and the 's' is a "saad". The double a is an aliph. The arabic word refers to "a kind of sea eagle". Apparently it came into english converting the 'gh' (ghain) to a 'b' via similarity to the latin 'albus' for 'white' which is the color of the bird. (Again, according to the Random House/Webster.) Unfortunately, that isn't quite right either. The Random House/Webster claims it comes from the arabic 'diver'. What they apparently meant was 'ghattaas' -- it is a 'siin', not a 'saad' (from Al-Mawrad, Arabic-English). According to Hans Wehr (Arabic-English) the root 'ghts' (again, a taw) means to dip, plung or immerse. A diver (according to Hans Wehr) is ghattaas, whether man or bird. In the entire entry for derivations of the root, albatross is not mentioned.
"Albatross" in Al-Mawrad (English-Arabic) is given as 'al-qatras' (the 't' is again actually a 'taw'. With a definition of 'big sea bird'.
Tim Doty
I've rolled back the incorrect ordering of the albatross species - taxonomica, not alpha jimfbleak 15:18, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I removed the following line from the introduction. They even sleep in flight. I have heard this several times from unofficial sources but have not actually seen it in a journal or ornithology book,it smacks of a myth. It seems unlikely that they could, unlike birds that do (like swifts) they fly very close to the surface of water and the control needed suggests strongly they'd be awake to fly like that. Sabine's Sunbird 16:42, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd suggest moving the section on taxonomy to right before the species list, which follows naturally from it. The taxonomy is probably the least interesting section to the general reader, and that move would let the article start with "Morphology and flight", probably the most interesting to such a reader. You'd still need a short mention of the genus names and the range of species numbers at the beginning (maybe in the lead), though. — JerryFriedman 21:07, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I took out the following line Because of this, Albatrosses are fiercely defensive of their eggs. Often, they will attempt to incubate any small, round, white objects they encounter. This can be a major problem when groups of Albatross nest on golf courses. Albatrosses are not fiercely defensive of their eggs, compared to hawks or other large birds. Albatrosses in Hawaii lose their eggs to small birds like and bristl-thighed curlews [1]. Albatross eggs are also considerably larger than golf balls. Sabine's Sunbird talk 15:35, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
We're on the main page on 4th May. I've given the article a read through, and made a number of tiny changes as a result of small problems that seem to have escaped us in previous review work. It might be worth a few more pairs of eyes taking a final look at the article before our chance at stardom. However, even without any more changes, the article is one of the best I've seen on Wikipedia, and a great credit to editors, particularly of course Sabine's Sunbird. No doubt 4th May will see plenty of vandalism as is the custom when something appears on the main page - I'll try to keep watch when I can, but the more of us that can do that too, the better. Any suggestions for the next bird family we should try to get to Featured standard? How about Pitta? SP-KP 22:16, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
LoL, Who deleted the page? 70.49.109.209 01:26, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok, this is a serious problem. This calls for the immediate attention of an administrator. It is ridiculous to have a blanked page on the main page. Kirbytime 01:39, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Looks like Gay Nigger Association of America is repeatedly vandalising this page by redirecting it. Why the hell isn't this protected aready? Kirbytime 01:43, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
How did the page get deleted in the first place? I thought only admins can delete pages. -- CrypticBacon 03:16, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Taxonomy is a nightmare at the moment with the AOU moving faster than the rest of the World towards a major revision. Until a consensus reforms, I think that all we can do is try to reflect the main strands of thought.
On the other hand, the BOU has been very quickly out of the blocks in terms of splitting the albatross group, and moving the Galloanseriformes to the start of the Neoaves list.
With regard to this article, I think it will need splitting fairly soon to a generic article on albatrosses and separate species accounts. Ill do it when I get time jimfbleak 10:24 Mar 29, 2003 (UTC)
Sounds reasonable, Jim. I'm not really up to speed on seabirds, but on checking the sources I have here I see that it looks as though the AOU has gone out on a limb with them. The latest official South African, and also the Australian, New Zealand and Antarctic lists have them as Procellariiformes, family Diomedeidae. Given that they are, in broad, Southern Hemisphere birds, it would be silly to ignore that. The South Africans seem to agree with the BOU, but the HANZAB list still has two genera. I suggest that we go with the South Africans & British on this one. I'll adjust the taxobox to suit in a little while. Tannin 12:27 Mar 29, 2003 (UTC)
How about something about Moby Dick. Doesn't albratross also mean an obstacle in your way to success?
I added a nice Royal Albatross picture from the colony in NZ in "Albatrosses and Culture", near the line that talks about it (the colony). Cause everyone likes more albatross pictures. Albatrossish 23:54, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Charles Baudelaire wrote a poem featuring albatrosses, didn't he? Here's the link to the poem, l'Albatros. Since Samuel Coleridge has been mentioned in the " Albatrosses and humans/Albatrosses and culture" section, why not this poem? Frigoris 06:00, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
It's ok that you have a grievance with a certain section. However, in your last edit, you changed Albatross to Alison Perrino? That alone discredited your arguement.-- Kungfu Adam ( talk) 13:06, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
"Ingestion of floating plastic flotsam ...". Isn't this a tautology? Flotsam floats. GrahamBould 07:33, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
, looks like it's been deleted o__O -- Melaen 21:58, 4 May 2006 (UTC) Same 205.251.166.246
Is someone on the restoration of this article? It looks as if it was deleted to remove personal information that was stored in an edit summary. If someone is working on this please say so before anyone else starts on it.
DJ Clayworth
22:05, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
can anyone else not see it 22:25, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
...here's good reading for Orville and Wilbur of The Rescuers franchise. -- Slgrandson 23:27, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
They are aided in soaring by a shoulder-lock, a sheet of tendon that locks the wing when fully extended, allowing the wing to be kept up and out without any muscle expenditure...
Something fishy is going on... the article is being blanked, redirected to Albatross/bad, the talk page is being redirected... this is a mess.
Freakofnurture is the one who seems to be doing this. May I ask why?
Ķĩřβȳ
Ťįɱé
Ø
03:43, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Just a quick question: If a page is semi-protected, can a very new user edit it or no?— G. H e 04:00, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
This is probably the most vandalized FAOTD in a long time. Perhaps just the title of it refreshes people's memory of a certain skit by a certain British comedy troupe... -- 84.188.138.224 09:58, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I just read an odd fact...
Had a little look for another source but couldn't find one - is this really true? violet/riga (t) 21:04, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
LOL! "about a third of whome are pirates". Just how many pirates are there in fact these days, I wonder? And to glide for six days... without flapping their wings... this is laughable. Even if albatross flew very high and glided much the way that planes do, there is nothing that indicates why there should be a 6 day limit. Either they would be able to do it endlessly, or they would have to flap every now and then to either fly higher, lower, or avoid cloud, etc. It sounds like nonsense to me. Rfwoolf 17:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
None of the following should prevent FA status being conferred but as I was reviewing it anyway to assess the FA nomination, I thought I'd note these down.
There are one or two places where I think we sail a little close to the wind on NPOV - the word "important" is usually the troublemaker.
Finally, a brisk whizz through to add sources for all as-yet-unsourced statements wouldn't go amiss (and for sources where a whole book is cited, giving a page number would be sensible). SP-KP 20:47, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Everything else seems to be valid points I'll try and address tomorrow. I don't think there is a glide ratio article or a long line fisheries article, valid potential articles for sure but beyond my scope for research. As for referencing, I'll refernce some more but I cannot do page numbers for Tickell's book as it was a library book I loaned back in California and can no longer access it. Sabine's Sunbird talk 21:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I'll see if I can create at least a stub for each of the two articles above. SP-KP 21:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Just to let you know, glide ratio and longline fishing exist SP-KP 08:47, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
This looks good enough to add in. Also - I've created an article called
List of albatross breeding locations and linked to it in the distribution section; comments appreciated.
SP-KP
12:51, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Good stuff - I'll take a read through later - just one other minor thing I spotted - the Penhallurick paper actually proposed dropping the species count to 13 (i.e. lumping Amsterdam Albatross with Wandering). I agree that the list of breeding locations would look better as a table - go for it. SP-KP 14:27, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Not sure if this is the right section to put in this comment or not (have never commented on Wikipedia before), the article is excellent overall but have notice an error, you state that the Waved Albatross is listed as critically endangered- By whom? It has only ever been listed as vulnerable by IUCN red list. They have 2 species listed as near threatened, 10 as Vulnerable, 7 as endangered and 2 as critically endangered. Hope this helps. 03-06-2007
I think this article has slope soaring and dynamic soaring mixed up, what do you guys think? Wrecksitup 02:51, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I deleted a statement saying albatross chicks were 300 times larger than the mice that devoured them. I'm sure the BBC article this references verifies this statement, but it is incorrect. I probably the same article in the Guardian which stated the chicks weighed 10kg. That is the size of a very large Turkey.
Hello. I am a native hebrew speaker, and my English is middle-leveled. I read the sentence "The bill is composed of several horny kids", and I could not understand (nor find) what is "kids" in this context. Could anyone clarify? Thanks, ירון ( talk) 19:46, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
The text hints something, but does not elaborate. It claims: "Albatrosses combine these soaring techniques with the use of predictable weather systems; albatrosses in the southern hemisphere flying north from their colonies will take a clockwise route, and those flying south will fly counterclockwise", while it is not clear why these are better flying routes (or why the weather there is better). ירון ( talk) 20:28, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
I thought it was policy not to protect or semi-protect today's featured article. What gives? BigBlueFish 19:41, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Under "Threats" it is said that one of the methods to reduce killing of albatrosses is "dying the bait blue". I'm not native speaker - what does it mean? couldn't figure out even with babylon. Thanks, ירון ( talk) 22:26, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Why did I have to view the discussion page to find the weight of an adult albatross. That would be nice information to have on the main page. How about a table with wingspan, height (when standing), weight, lifespan, and other attributes of various varieties of albatrosses? Thank you. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.100.189.67 (
talk)
00:20, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Just asking ;-) Guy ( Help!) 16:24, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
As the very famous Monty Python sketch asked, What flavour is it? But seriously, it would be nice to have a section on albatross apearance in the media (as in related documtaries and films). Perhaps this could be made ointo a seperate article.
Re "Albatross in Culture"- In the film "The Sea Hawk" with Errol Flynn, the Albatross is the name of Capt. Thorpe (Flynn)'s ship. It's an appropriate name because of the birds reputaton, not just because of its size but also it's maneurverability. There's a reference in the film, in a battle scene when the helmsman(?) says something like 'the Albatross is not a ship you can just run away from'. Dcrasno ( talk) 01:22, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
I've moved the following question here:
MeegsC ( talk) 16:54, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Somewhere it says that Albatross can be used for the plural as well as singular. Sort of like fish, and perhaps other cases. Not to make an issue of it, but the plural used here is clumsy orthography and unattractive phonetics, euphony always being important. Would expect contributing experts to prefer the shorter form. Not planning to replace all plural forms, but making a suggestion to editors in charge of this page. hgwb ( talk) 14:12, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
In the header it's mentioned that albatrosses have the largest wingspan of all birds, but no average figure is given. -- FermatSim 19:46, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
The etymology is patently wrong. The proposed arabic word is obviously not arabic at all. I'm not 100% clear on the correct etymology, but according to my Random House/Webster dictionary the arabic root is al-ghattaas (I don't know how to write arabic in wikipedia, the 't' is actually a "taw" and the 's' is a "saad". The double a is an aliph. The arabic word refers to "a kind of sea eagle". Apparently it came into english converting the 'gh' (ghain) to a 'b' via similarity to the latin 'albus' for 'white' which is the color of the bird. (Again, according to the Random House/Webster.) Unfortunately, that isn't quite right either. The Random House/Webster claims it comes from the arabic 'diver'. What they apparently meant was 'ghattaas' -- it is a 'siin', not a 'saad' (from Al-Mawrad, Arabic-English). According to Hans Wehr (Arabic-English) the root 'ghts' (again, a taw) means to dip, plung or immerse. A diver (according to Hans Wehr) is ghattaas, whether man or bird. In the entire entry for derivations of the root, albatross is not mentioned.
"Albatross" in Al-Mawrad (English-Arabic) is given as 'al-qatras' (the 't' is again actually a 'taw'. With a definition of 'big sea bird'.
Tim Doty
I've rolled back the incorrect ordering of the albatross species - taxonomica, not alpha jimfbleak 15:18, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I removed the following line from the introduction. They even sleep in flight. I have heard this several times from unofficial sources but have not actually seen it in a journal or ornithology book,it smacks of a myth. It seems unlikely that they could, unlike birds that do (like swifts) they fly very close to the surface of water and the control needed suggests strongly they'd be awake to fly like that. Sabine's Sunbird 16:42, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd suggest moving the section on taxonomy to right before the species list, which follows naturally from it. The taxonomy is probably the least interesting section to the general reader, and that move would let the article start with "Morphology and flight", probably the most interesting to such a reader. You'd still need a short mention of the genus names and the range of species numbers at the beginning (maybe in the lead), though. — JerryFriedman 21:07, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I took out the following line Because of this, Albatrosses are fiercely defensive of their eggs. Often, they will attempt to incubate any small, round, white objects they encounter. This can be a major problem when groups of Albatross nest on golf courses. Albatrosses are not fiercely defensive of their eggs, compared to hawks or other large birds. Albatrosses in Hawaii lose their eggs to small birds like and bristl-thighed curlews [1]. Albatross eggs are also considerably larger than golf balls. Sabine's Sunbird talk 15:35, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
We're on the main page on 4th May. I've given the article a read through, and made a number of tiny changes as a result of small problems that seem to have escaped us in previous review work. It might be worth a few more pairs of eyes taking a final look at the article before our chance at stardom. However, even without any more changes, the article is one of the best I've seen on Wikipedia, and a great credit to editors, particularly of course Sabine's Sunbird. No doubt 4th May will see plenty of vandalism as is the custom when something appears on the main page - I'll try to keep watch when I can, but the more of us that can do that too, the better. Any suggestions for the next bird family we should try to get to Featured standard? How about Pitta? SP-KP 22:16, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
LoL, Who deleted the page? 70.49.109.209 01:26, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Ok, this is a serious problem. This calls for the immediate attention of an administrator. It is ridiculous to have a blanked page on the main page. Kirbytime 01:39, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Looks like Gay Nigger Association of America is repeatedly vandalising this page by redirecting it. Why the hell isn't this protected aready? Kirbytime 01:43, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
How did the page get deleted in the first place? I thought only admins can delete pages. -- CrypticBacon 03:16, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Taxonomy is a nightmare at the moment with the AOU moving faster than the rest of the World towards a major revision. Until a consensus reforms, I think that all we can do is try to reflect the main strands of thought.
On the other hand, the BOU has been very quickly out of the blocks in terms of splitting the albatross group, and moving the Galloanseriformes to the start of the Neoaves list.
With regard to this article, I think it will need splitting fairly soon to a generic article on albatrosses and separate species accounts. Ill do it when I get time jimfbleak 10:24 Mar 29, 2003 (UTC)
Sounds reasonable, Jim. I'm not really up to speed on seabirds, but on checking the sources I have here I see that it looks as though the AOU has gone out on a limb with them. The latest official South African, and also the Australian, New Zealand and Antarctic lists have them as Procellariiformes, family Diomedeidae. Given that they are, in broad, Southern Hemisphere birds, it would be silly to ignore that. The South Africans seem to agree with the BOU, but the HANZAB list still has two genera. I suggest that we go with the South Africans & British on this one. I'll adjust the taxobox to suit in a little while. Tannin 12:27 Mar 29, 2003 (UTC)
How about something about Moby Dick. Doesn't albratross also mean an obstacle in your way to success?
I added a nice Royal Albatross picture from the colony in NZ in "Albatrosses and Culture", near the line that talks about it (the colony). Cause everyone likes more albatross pictures. Albatrossish 23:54, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Charles Baudelaire wrote a poem featuring albatrosses, didn't he? Here's the link to the poem, l'Albatros. Since Samuel Coleridge has been mentioned in the " Albatrosses and humans/Albatrosses and culture" section, why not this poem? Frigoris 06:00, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
It's ok that you have a grievance with a certain section. However, in your last edit, you changed Albatross to Alison Perrino? That alone discredited your arguement.-- Kungfu Adam ( talk) 13:06, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
"Ingestion of floating plastic flotsam ...". Isn't this a tautology? Flotsam floats. GrahamBould 07:33, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
, looks like it's been deleted o__O -- Melaen 21:58, 4 May 2006 (UTC) Same 205.251.166.246
Is someone on the restoration of this article? It looks as if it was deleted to remove personal information that was stored in an edit summary. If someone is working on this please say so before anyone else starts on it.
DJ Clayworth
22:05, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
can anyone else not see it 22:25, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
...here's good reading for Orville and Wilbur of The Rescuers franchise. -- Slgrandson 23:27, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
They are aided in soaring by a shoulder-lock, a sheet of tendon that locks the wing when fully extended, allowing the wing to be kept up and out without any muscle expenditure...
Something fishy is going on... the article is being blanked, redirected to Albatross/bad, the talk page is being redirected... this is a mess.
Freakofnurture is the one who seems to be doing this. May I ask why?
Ķĩřβȳ
Ťįɱé
Ø
03:43, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Just a quick question: If a page is semi-protected, can a very new user edit it or no?— G. H e 04:00, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
This is probably the most vandalized FAOTD in a long time. Perhaps just the title of it refreshes people's memory of a certain skit by a certain British comedy troupe... -- 84.188.138.224 09:58, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I just read an odd fact...
Had a little look for another source but couldn't find one - is this really true? violet/riga (t) 21:04, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
LOL! "about a third of whome are pirates". Just how many pirates are there in fact these days, I wonder? And to glide for six days... without flapping their wings... this is laughable. Even if albatross flew very high and glided much the way that planes do, there is nothing that indicates why there should be a 6 day limit. Either they would be able to do it endlessly, or they would have to flap every now and then to either fly higher, lower, or avoid cloud, etc. It sounds like nonsense to me. Rfwoolf 17:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
None of the following should prevent FA status being conferred but as I was reviewing it anyway to assess the FA nomination, I thought I'd note these down.
There are one or two places where I think we sail a little close to the wind on NPOV - the word "important" is usually the troublemaker.
Finally, a brisk whizz through to add sources for all as-yet-unsourced statements wouldn't go amiss (and for sources where a whole book is cited, giving a page number would be sensible). SP-KP 20:47, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Everything else seems to be valid points I'll try and address tomorrow. I don't think there is a glide ratio article or a long line fisheries article, valid potential articles for sure but beyond my scope for research. As for referencing, I'll refernce some more but I cannot do page numbers for Tickell's book as it was a library book I loaned back in California and can no longer access it. Sabine's Sunbird talk 21:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I'll see if I can create at least a stub for each of the two articles above. SP-KP 21:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Just to let you know, glide ratio and longline fishing exist SP-KP 08:47, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
This looks good enough to add in. Also - I've created an article called
List of albatross breeding locations and linked to it in the distribution section; comments appreciated.
SP-KP
12:51, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Good stuff - I'll take a read through later - just one other minor thing I spotted - the Penhallurick paper actually proposed dropping the species count to 13 (i.e. lumping Amsterdam Albatross with Wandering). I agree that the list of breeding locations would look better as a table - go for it. SP-KP 14:27, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Not sure if this is the right section to put in this comment or not (have never commented on Wikipedia before), the article is excellent overall but have notice an error, you state that the Waved Albatross is listed as critically endangered- By whom? It has only ever been listed as vulnerable by IUCN red list. They have 2 species listed as near threatened, 10 as Vulnerable, 7 as endangered and 2 as critically endangered. Hope this helps. 03-06-2007
I think this article has slope soaring and dynamic soaring mixed up, what do you guys think? Wrecksitup 02:51, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I deleted a statement saying albatross chicks were 300 times larger than the mice that devoured them. I'm sure the BBC article this references verifies this statement, but it is incorrect. I probably the same article in the Guardian which stated the chicks weighed 10kg. That is the size of a very large Turkey.
Hello. I am a native hebrew speaker, and my English is middle-leveled. I read the sentence "The bill is composed of several horny kids", and I could not understand (nor find) what is "kids" in this context. Could anyone clarify? Thanks, ירון ( talk) 19:46, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
The text hints something, but does not elaborate. It claims: "Albatrosses combine these soaring techniques with the use of predictable weather systems; albatrosses in the southern hemisphere flying north from their colonies will take a clockwise route, and those flying south will fly counterclockwise", while it is not clear why these are better flying routes (or why the weather there is better). ירון ( talk) 20:28, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
I thought it was policy not to protect or semi-protect today's featured article. What gives? BigBlueFish 19:41, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Under "Threats" it is said that one of the methods to reduce killing of albatrosses is "dying the bait blue". I'm not native speaker - what does it mean? couldn't figure out even with babylon. Thanks, ירון ( talk) 22:26, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Why did I have to view the discussion page to find the weight of an adult albatross. That would be nice information to have on the main page. How about a table with wingspan, height (when standing), weight, lifespan, and other attributes of various varieties of albatrosses? Thank you. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.100.189.67 (
talk)
00:20, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Just asking ;-) Guy ( Help!) 16:24, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
As the very famous Monty Python sketch asked, What flavour is it? But seriously, it would be nice to have a section on albatross apearance in the media (as in related documtaries and films). Perhaps this could be made ointo a seperate article.
Re "Albatross in Culture"- In the film "The Sea Hawk" with Errol Flynn, the Albatross is the name of Capt. Thorpe (Flynn)'s ship. It's an appropriate name because of the birds reputaton, not just because of its size but also it's maneurverability. There's a reference in the film, in a battle scene when the helmsman(?) says something like 'the Albatross is not a ship you can just run away from'. Dcrasno ( talk) 01:22, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
I've moved the following question here:
MeegsC ( talk) 16:54, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Somewhere it says that Albatross can be used for the plural as well as singular. Sort of like fish, and perhaps other cases. Not to make an issue of it, but the plural used here is clumsy orthography and unattractive phonetics, euphony always being important. Would expect contributing experts to prefer the shorter form. Not planning to replace all plural forms, but making a suggestion to editors in charge of this page. hgwb ( talk) 14:12, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
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