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But what is the difference between this article and Albanians in Greece? Iraqi ( talk) 16:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
No one of us in Thrace speaks albanian nowadays. We were, we are and we will be greeks for ever. Albanians, don't dream, it's over. Our ancestor never said that they were albanians. They had GREEK SCHOOLS and noone of them prefered to go to Albania in 1922 but all settled in Greece because they were Greeks... Our ancestors were albanian speakers, not albanians. Italian speakers in Switzerland are swiss, not italians, Argentinians are spanish speakers, not spanish etc.
"So why is this page not titled Albanians in Western Thrace? Are they not self-claimed Albanians?"
No my friend, we self identify as Greeks, as our albanian speaking grand parents. You must respect our right to self-identify. Our grand parents were albanian-speaking GREEKS, they fought and died for Greece. Look at these maps. Do you see any albanians in Eastern Thrace?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Ethnographic_map_Ami_Boue_1847.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_19.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_22.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_23.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_24.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_25.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_26.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_27.jpg
Respect our history and don't support nationalistic antiscientific historical stealings. This article is full of mistakes and arbitrary conclusions. Who is the writer of this article? Has he ever been in our villages in Western Thrace? We claim our right to self identify. No one can speak for us without us. This article is against human rights and we will protest to international organizations. Can the writer of this article present an historical evidence, source, citation in which albanian-speaking Greeks self-indentified as Albanians? Can he explain why no one of them went to Albania after 1922? Can he explain why all albanian-speaking villages had GREEK schools, even in Vithkuq?
We are waiting for an answer. This article is a patch work of someone albanian nationalist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.174.78 ( talk) 20:18, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Could someone please provide solid evidence of these villages such as their names? PMK1 ( talk) 13:35, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
There aren't albanian speaking villages in Thrace anymore. Our grandfathers speaked albanian but they self-identified as Greeks. Nowadays, all former albanian speakers speak only greek. Come here, in our villages to see this with your own eyes. This anti scientific article is just another nationalistic albanian propaganda and nothing more. The moderators of Wikipedia should be more careful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.174.78 ( talk) 23:25, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
"At the conclusion of the Greco-Turkish War of 1919–1922, Greece and Turkey signed the Treaty of Lausanne, which included a population exchange between the two countries. The treaty used religion as the indicator of national affiliation, thus including populations without ethnic provisions, even Albanians, in the population exchange. Under this treaty the Muslims of Greece were exchanged with the Christians of Turkey, with an exception of the Muslims of Western Thrace and the Christians of Istanbul".[5]
____________
The albanian-speaking Greeks of Eastern Thrace settled in Western Thrace in October of 1922 according to the Armistice of Mudanya: History of the Ottoman Empire and modern Turkey, Cambridge University Press, 1977, p.362-364
France, Italy and Britain called Mustafa Kemal to Venice for cease-fire negotiations. In return, Mustafa Kemal demanded negotiations be started at Moudania (Mudanya) on condition that east Thrace be ceded to Turks immediately. Negotiations at Mudanya began on October 3, with the Turkish delegation lead by Ismet Inonu, and the Greeks represented by the Allies. When the British resisted, at Chanak on the Dardanelles, Kemal dared Britain to enforce the terms of the Treaty of Sèvres, but Lloyd George backed down. The Mudanya Armistice was concluded on October 11, 1922, with the Allies keeping east Thrace and the Bosporus under occupation, but the Greeks evacuating these areas. The agreement came into force starting October 15, one day after the Greek side agreed to sign it.
http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/greco-turkish-war-1919-1922-/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.174.78 ( talk) 23:42, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Muslim Albanians have nothing to do with Christian Albanian-speaking Greeks of Eastern Thrace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.174.78 ( talk) 23:44, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
The article reads: "The direct descendants of the prominent Albanian writer and politician, Fan Noli, who was born in Eastern Thrace, today live in the Greek part of the region".
___________________
Fan Noli was a Bishop and therefore he never married and obviously had no ...direct descendants!!! His name was Theofanis Mavromatis and his relatives live today in the village Tychero (Τυχερό) in Evros Prefecture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tychero and they are Greeks.
This article is full of mistakes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.174.78 ( talk) 20:33, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
The Albanian-speakers of Western Thrace and Macedonia use the common Albanian self-appellation, Shqiptar. ________________
Yes, this is true but our ancestors came in Eastern Thrace after Scanderbeg's time and the self-identification had a geographic and not a national content. The Albanian nation did not exist then and is a nationalistic myth that Scanderbeg was an albanian. An albanian historian notes:
"Over time Scanderbeg has been given a lead role by Albanian nationalists as a symbol of national unity. Using episodes out of the Middle Ages is a fairly common aspect of Balkan nationasm. Piro Misha botes that Scanderbeg’s transformation into a national hero made him “the embodiment of the myth ‘of continuous resistance’ against their national foes.” His identity as a Christian prince and the alliance he forged with the Kingdom of Naples and the recognition he received from the Venetians and the papacy, were all used to affirm the European identity of Albania. In Sami Frasheri’s Albania: What it Was, What it Is, What it Will Be one sees the degree to which Scanderbeg’s figure was elevated by the nationalists of the 19th century".
Pahumi, Nevila, The Consolidation of Albanian Nationalism: The League of Prizren 1878-1881, University of Michigan, 2007, p.15. http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/55462/1/pahumi_history_honors_thesis_2007.pdf
All christians of Ottoman Empire identified them selves as christians then, not Albanians, Greeks or Bulgarians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.174.78 ( talk) 20:51, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Which are these villages? Haven't they a name? I think is very unclear and the writer should be clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doctor1973 ( talk • contribs) 20:19, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Albanian-speakers of Western Thrace. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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The article says "The Albanians of Western Thrace form an ethnic minority in Greek Macedonia and Western Thrace along the border with Turkey. They speak the Northern Tosk subbranch of Tosk Albanian and are descendants of the Albanian population of Eastern Thrace who migrated during the Population exchange between Greece and Turkey in the 1920s"
Comments
1. The population exchange took place in 1923 and not 1920
2. Those who settled in western Thrace had a Greek national consciousness,thus they were transfered, under the agreement, from Asia Minor, Eastern Thrace and Black Sea regions. Additionaly, this is how the Greek goverment perceived them. If they were considered Albanians they wouldn't , under the Treaty, settled on Greek lands. They would be either in Albania or they would stay in Turkey. Ipapas ( talk) 10:42, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
The article states "In the 1951 census in Greece, Albanians formed around 3% of the total population in the Evros,
In this link you can find the published 1951 Cencus by the Greek Statistic Authority. As you can see, nothing is mentioned regarding ethnicities, much more mentioning Albanian ethnicity in western Thrace http://dlib.statistics.gr/Book/GRESYE_02_0101_00031.pdf
The article is obviously written in a way that supports the Albanian nationalistic aspirations. I suggest to be edited to reflect the truth until more data ara available Ipapas ( talk) 10:48, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
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But what is the difference between this article and Albanians in Greece? Iraqi ( talk) 16:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
No one of us in Thrace speaks albanian nowadays. We were, we are and we will be greeks for ever. Albanians, don't dream, it's over. Our ancestor never said that they were albanians. They had GREEK SCHOOLS and noone of them prefered to go to Albania in 1922 but all settled in Greece because they were Greeks... Our ancestors were albanian speakers, not albanians. Italian speakers in Switzerland are swiss, not italians, Argentinians are spanish speakers, not spanish etc.
"So why is this page not titled Albanians in Western Thrace? Are they not self-claimed Albanians?"
No my friend, we self identify as Greeks, as our albanian speaking grand parents. You must respect our right to self-identify. Our grand parents were albanian-speaking GREEKS, they fought and died for Greece. Look at these maps. Do you see any albanians in Eastern Thrace?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Ethnographic_map_Ami_Boue_1847.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_19.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_22.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_23.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_24.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_25.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_26.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_27.jpg
Respect our history and don't support nationalistic antiscientific historical stealings. This article is full of mistakes and arbitrary conclusions. Who is the writer of this article? Has he ever been in our villages in Western Thrace? We claim our right to self identify. No one can speak for us without us. This article is against human rights and we will protest to international organizations. Can the writer of this article present an historical evidence, source, citation in which albanian-speaking Greeks self-indentified as Albanians? Can he explain why no one of them went to Albania after 1922? Can he explain why all albanian-speaking villages had GREEK schools, even in Vithkuq?
We are waiting for an answer. This article is a patch work of someone albanian nationalist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.174.78 ( talk) 20:18, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Could someone please provide solid evidence of these villages such as their names? PMK1 ( talk) 13:35, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
There aren't albanian speaking villages in Thrace anymore. Our grandfathers speaked albanian but they self-identified as Greeks. Nowadays, all former albanian speakers speak only greek. Come here, in our villages to see this with your own eyes. This anti scientific article is just another nationalistic albanian propaganda and nothing more. The moderators of Wikipedia should be more careful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.174.78 ( talk) 23:25, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
"At the conclusion of the Greco-Turkish War of 1919–1922, Greece and Turkey signed the Treaty of Lausanne, which included a population exchange between the two countries. The treaty used religion as the indicator of national affiliation, thus including populations without ethnic provisions, even Albanians, in the population exchange. Under this treaty the Muslims of Greece were exchanged with the Christians of Turkey, with an exception of the Muslims of Western Thrace and the Christians of Istanbul".[5]
____________
The albanian-speaking Greeks of Eastern Thrace settled in Western Thrace in October of 1922 according to the Armistice of Mudanya: History of the Ottoman Empire and modern Turkey, Cambridge University Press, 1977, p.362-364
France, Italy and Britain called Mustafa Kemal to Venice for cease-fire negotiations. In return, Mustafa Kemal demanded negotiations be started at Moudania (Mudanya) on condition that east Thrace be ceded to Turks immediately. Negotiations at Mudanya began on October 3, with the Turkish delegation lead by Ismet Inonu, and the Greeks represented by the Allies. When the British resisted, at Chanak on the Dardanelles, Kemal dared Britain to enforce the terms of the Treaty of Sèvres, but Lloyd George backed down. The Mudanya Armistice was concluded on October 11, 1922, with the Allies keeping east Thrace and the Bosporus under occupation, but the Greeks evacuating these areas. The agreement came into force starting October 15, one day after the Greek side agreed to sign it.
http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/greco-turkish-war-1919-1922-/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.174.78 ( talk) 23:42, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Muslim Albanians have nothing to do with Christian Albanian-speaking Greeks of Eastern Thrace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.174.78 ( talk) 23:44, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
The article reads: "The direct descendants of the prominent Albanian writer and politician, Fan Noli, who was born in Eastern Thrace, today live in the Greek part of the region".
___________________
Fan Noli was a Bishop and therefore he never married and obviously had no ...direct descendants!!! His name was Theofanis Mavromatis and his relatives live today in the village Tychero (Τυχερό) in Evros Prefecture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tychero and they are Greeks.
This article is full of mistakes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.174.78 ( talk) 20:33, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
The Albanian-speakers of Western Thrace and Macedonia use the common Albanian self-appellation, Shqiptar. ________________
Yes, this is true but our ancestors came in Eastern Thrace after Scanderbeg's time and the self-identification had a geographic and not a national content. The Albanian nation did not exist then and is a nationalistic myth that Scanderbeg was an albanian. An albanian historian notes:
"Over time Scanderbeg has been given a lead role by Albanian nationalists as a symbol of national unity. Using episodes out of the Middle Ages is a fairly common aspect of Balkan nationasm. Piro Misha botes that Scanderbeg’s transformation into a national hero made him “the embodiment of the myth ‘of continuous resistance’ against their national foes.” His identity as a Christian prince and the alliance he forged with the Kingdom of Naples and the recognition he received from the Venetians and the papacy, were all used to affirm the European identity of Albania. In Sami Frasheri’s Albania: What it Was, What it Is, What it Will Be one sees the degree to which Scanderbeg’s figure was elevated by the nationalists of the 19th century".
Pahumi, Nevila, The Consolidation of Albanian Nationalism: The League of Prizren 1878-1881, University of Michigan, 2007, p.15. http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/55462/1/pahumi_history_honors_thesis_2007.pdf
All christians of Ottoman Empire identified them selves as christians then, not Albanians, Greeks or Bulgarians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.174.78 ( talk) 20:51, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Which are these villages? Haven't they a name? I think is very unclear and the writer should be clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doctor1973 ( talk • contribs) 20:19, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Albanian-speakers of Western Thrace. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:03, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
The article says "The Albanians of Western Thrace form an ethnic minority in Greek Macedonia and Western Thrace along the border with Turkey. They speak the Northern Tosk subbranch of Tosk Albanian and are descendants of the Albanian population of Eastern Thrace who migrated during the Population exchange between Greece and Turkey in the 1920s"
Comments
1. The population exchange took place in 1923 and not 1920
2. Those who settled in western Thrace had a Greek national consciousness,thus they were transfered, under the agreement, from Asia Minor, Eastern Thrace and Black Sea regions. Additionaly, this is how the Greek goverment perceived them. If they were considered Albanians they wouldn't , under the Treaty, settled on Greek lands. They would be either in Albania or they would stay in Turkey. Ipapas ( talk) 10:42, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
The article states "In the 1951 census in Greece, Albanians formed around 3% of the total population in the Evros,
In this link you can find the published 1951 Cencus by the Greek Statistic Authority. As you can see, nothing is mentioned regarding ethnicities, much more mentioning Albanian ethnicity in western Thrace http://dlib.statistics.gr/Book/GRESYE_02_0101_00031.pdf
The article is obviously written in a way that supports the Albanian nationalistic aspirations. I suggest to be edited to reflect the truth until more data ara available Ipapas ( talk) 10:48, 18 September 2023 (UTC)