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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Alawites in Turkey was copied or moved into Alawi with this edit on 22:33, 30 July 2011. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
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The result of the proposal was moved. -- BDD ( talk) 19:56, 27 December 2012 (UTC) ( non-admin closure)
This article was moved to "Alawi" some time back for some shaky reasons. Now with all the media attention, "Alawite" seems to in most common use. FunkMonk ( talk) 20:06, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
Page moved as requested, along with this talk page. I've also manually moved a couple of archive pages - if I've missed any let me know. An optimist on the run! 20:46, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
Many weird allegations against Alawites have been made over the centuries to demonise them, and now a user wants to repeat some of it here, without providing proper sourcing; a radio programme is not a scholarly, reliable source. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories FunkMonk ( talk) 23:12, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
It does not take much imagination to see how such beliefs, programmed into the community’s values for more than a millennium, and reinforced by customs such as endogamous marriage — according to which the children of unions between Nusayris and non-Nusayris cannot be initiated into the sect — create very strong notions of apartness and disdain for the “Other.” "
So beliefs the alawite woman described that you said were the demonising fantasies of the BBC believed in only by retards keep showing up when i google alawite beliefs - she said she got grief too for dating a Sunni lad - i must say your extreme whining chimes very well really with an exclusive inward-looking paranoid set up. are the Alawites over-represented in the security forces btw. Do you know? Sayerslle ( talk) 20:14, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Let me chime in as a Sunni Muslim. The Syrian war is absolutely filled with propaganda. Both the government and the opposition have gone full gear and the truth is very to discern. Especially considering the fact that Syria is so dangerous for journalists they ns they often report what Syrians tell them. Syrians who have aren't journalists trying to report the truth but rather people trying to achieve political goals. The opposition is a lot more successful than the government and one of their main talking points in the religious sect of President Assad. The propaganda about Alawis having weird beliefs,doing strange stuff and "oppressing the Sunnis" feeds into the general feeling among a lot of Sunnis that we are superior to other Muslim sects because only we are true Muslims and they wish to harm us. Obviously anyone who knows anything about the Ba'ath government in Syria will know that it's a secular party. The security forces have a disproportionate amount of Alawis because they are more loyal to the President but the government doesn't in general discriminate based on faith. Wikipedia should be very careful and only report what is based on facts. If we report every sensational accusations against the Alawis, then we are setting up an entire group of people to be ethnically cleansed at best and massacred at worst. Don't forget what happened to the Tawerghans in Libya. The media around the world dutifully reporting Rebel propaganda lead to the belief that Black tawerghans were going around raping Arab women. It has lead to 30,000 people being ethnically cleansed, thousands of them in makeshift jails being tortured and murdered by Misratan rebels. Remember genocide always starts with the dehumanisation of the target group.
62.31.145.100 (
talk) 06:17, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
There is tendency among people in this article to present alawites as extremists. Even tough they are actually moderate in comparison with many orthodox sunni variations. Heterodoxy is not synonymous with extremism. The article must avoid stating blindly the possible negative variations of alawite thought, like for example the belief "women have no souls" , even if existing (which can be questioned), religions are known for presenting philosophical differentiations inside the community itself. Hence the alawite community may present differentiations of thought within it. An alwite leader may,for example disagree from other alawite leader, and the community can present differentiations within it. Different interpretation are known among religions, specially one so open to innovation as the alawites. The people who wrote this article most likely love demonizing alawites as "evil heretics", Wikipedia should not allow the demonization of an ethny. The ultra-orthodox sunnis and their supporters are the real extremists, and this is quite obvious, just look at their actions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.9.201.69 ( talk) 04:13, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Never heard of the term 'ghulat' before but an experienced editor is willing to go to the 3RR limit to keep the category off the article. This Jerusalem Post article clearly states that other Shia have called the Alawites religion 'extremist' which in Arabic is 'ghulat'. [3] Alatari ( talk) 21:59, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
The article cites a source several times calling Alawite a ghulat sect: # ^ a b c d Moosa, Matti (1987). Extremist Shiites: The Ghulat Sects. Syracuse University Press. pp. 282–283. ISBN 0-8156-2411-5. Alatari ( talk) 22:03, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Matti Moosa, historian on the Middle East, calls them ghulat and wrote a book on the various ghulat sects of Shia and his text is used as a source for the article. That is a reliable, non-fringe source. That is what Wikipedia relies upon for the inclusion of the material. Here is the page: [4] Alatari ( talk) 23:14, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
This is the page that matters. Copy your answer here and we'll talk only here then. Alatari ( talk) 23:45, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Moosa categorizes in his own words several religious sects as Ghulat Sects in this book: [5] Alatari ( talk) 23:47, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Then why has the article been purged of the term 'ghulat'? Many other pages across the internet borrow from earlier copies of this Wikipedia article and have the term ghulat but this article now has been censored. I concede the point that Category:Heretic is not applied to Galileo and others considered heretics throughout history. Alatari ( talk) 23:52, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I was referring to long dead heretics, like Galileo. Alatari ( talk) 00:03, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm reading Moosas book now and he clearly calls them Ghulat sects throughout the book with no reference to it being a pejorative. He is a recognized historian of Islam and the Middle East and we do not censor Wikipedia because you think it's a derogatory term. The Alawite religion is not a single person and is not covered by the rules about individual biographies. WP:PROFANE Alatari ( talk) 00:25, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I understand your objection so find some reliable historian to offset Moosa's view as calling them extremists. The Alawites were persecuted for being considered heretics by Sunnis. This is the nature of religious fighting. Someone's divine dogma is someone elses heresy. Alatari ( talk) 00:38, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I noticed you removed the Alawites from the ghulat article even though Moosa is a reliable source for their inclusion there. [ [6]] Alatari ( talk) 00:38, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Ghulat is obviously a derogatory term, used to demonize an entire ethny. A justification for the real extremists to repress and even kill a religious minority. Also, "ghulat" is given not supposed to be a term given in the sense of them being religious fanatics, but in the sense of they supposedly giving too much Importance to the character of ali. Maybe now they are masking their persecution of muslim minorities by calling them "extremists" to seek sympathy from non-muslims.
The Encyclopedia of Islam has an article on the Alawites written by Heinz Halm. Here is the first paragraph:
NUSAYRIYYA, a Shīʿī sect widely dispersed in western Syria and in the south-east of present day Turkey; the only branch of extreme (ghuluww) Kūfan Shīʿism which has survived into the contemporary period.
Also here is the first line of the "Doctrines" section:
As ghulat, the Nusayriyya venerate Ali b. Abi Talib as supreme and eternal God (al-ilāh al-aʿẓam, al-qadīm al-azal).
It is obvious that the term "ghulat" is an important distinction here that should not be ignored. It is also being used to describe their beliefs from an academic/historical perspective.
As a side comment on the previous discussion, Halm also has this to say on their beliefs concerning women:
He who recognises the identity of the maʿnā is saved and may escape from metempsychosis; his soul, released from the body and transformed into a star, resumes its journey back across the seven heavens to arrive at the ultimate objective (ghāya), sc. contemplation (muʿāyana) of the divine light. Women are excluded from this because they are born of the sins of devils; for this reason, they are not entitled to participate in the rites of men (Sulaymān, Bākūra, 61). The popular religion of the Nusayriyya, especially that of women, retains traces of paganism (veneration of high places, of springs, of green trees). (p. 148) [1]
Wiqi( 55) 00:14, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Here Moosa says that the extremist Alawites (Nusayri) are considered heretics by the majority of Sunni followers. [7] If his opinion is not notable then that is another matter. If he is a recognized authority on Middle Eastern religions then it needs to be included and it is not fringe as FunkMunk has been trying to claim. Alatari ( talk) 00:32, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
The discussion and vote is taking place here [10]. I changed my vote to delete per Johnlambert's opinion it can be misused on Wikipedia. As for this article and the ghulat article I think the word ghulat should be added back to the article per the authority of Moosa and the usage in other sources. If it is offensive to the Nusairis then Funkmonk can provide sources as to why it is a hurtful pejorative term. Alatari ( talk) 00:55, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Something illustrative like an Alawite being stoned to death while people chant 'Ghulat, ghulat' around the scene kind of source that gives us readers an idea how hurtful a term it is. Alatari ( talk) 01:08, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I've repaired most of the grammar issues. Can someone just make sure they're okay? 19:25, 22 March 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.40.180 ( talk)
Aside from living in a specific area of Syria, I can't see what cultural differences this group has....is it ethnicity or theological differences? Do they have a smaller range of occupations, food or clothing differences? Specific stories they tell about their culture or different mosques? In a completely neutral way, what "marks" Alawites as different from the majority culture of Syrian? This entry is a bit of an outline of modern Alawite integration into Syrian population but doesn't say much about Alawite "culture". 69.125.134.86 ( talk) 12:58, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
The section names Heterodox, Orthodox, are not fitting in Wikipedia since Wikipedia takes no religious stance about what is what. I propose either deleting the section headings, or renaming them to something that does not give the impression that Wikipedia have an opinion. Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 10:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
I will remove the last section about alawis being slaughtered by Ali, this story is obviously aimed to discredit alawis, the source is...just a guy on the internet with his blog. I find it hard to believe there is absoutely nothing on that webpage about their true belief. I don't think it's that hard to find. I also think Saudi should nor be allowed to write on wikipedia until they acknowledge the existence of logic Klinfran ( talk) 16:13, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
Our Shia Sheikh told us multiple times that Bashar al Asad is a kafir and Alawites are not Shia Muslims at all because they believe in reincarnation and drink alcohol, among many things. They also don't pray five times a day. He also pointed out that when they tried to convert Alawites to Islam, Bashar forbid of building new Shia mosques in Syria and even went after them, Twelvers. Categorizing Alawites as Shias is very debatable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.57.129 ( talk) 17:04, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm continuing as nobody answered my facts, moreover, somebody not only spread lies in this article that Alawites are Shias but also that they are Twelvers. Both claims are completely false. No Shias, especially Twelvers believe in Alawite doctrine:
-Reincarnation: this appears to have been an original ibn Nusayri teaching, that one can reincarnate several times. Women do not reincarnate. Men, however, can live 7 lives as faithful `Alawis, and then finally join 'Ali (as) in a celestial heaven. If they are not faithful, they will be reborn as Christians as a punishment. Non-Alawis reincarnate into animals.
-Trinity: `Alawis believe in three incarnations of God: `Ali (as), Muhammad (pbuh), and Salman al-Farisi (ra). Each of the three have their own mystical significance, `Ali being the meaning, Muhammed being the name, and Salman al-Farisi being the gate. The short version of the `Alawi shahada is "I testify that there is no God but Ali," (la ilaha illa-`Ali), the long version (`ayn meem seen) which recognizes the full Trinity says: `I have borne witness that there is no God but He, the most High, the object of worship [al-'Ali al-Ma'bud] and that there is no concealing veil (hijab) except the lord Muhammad, the object of praise, (as-Sayyid Muhmmad al-Mahmud), and there is not Bab except the lord Salman al-Farisi`
-Rejection of the Qur'an: `Alawis reject the literal meanings of the Qur'an, and instead emphasize spiritual, mystical, and metaphorical practices and sayings.
-Celebration of Christian and Persian holidays: Since the religion had a long standing in Christendom, they adopted some Christian celebrations including Christmas, Easter, Palm Sunday, and have their own unique practices for these days, which include the communion associated with Catholic tradition. `Alawis also celebrate Nawruz, marking the Persian new year.
-Mysticism: In the `Alawiyya, there are many connections with the Isma'iiyya, as they both view the Islamic shari`ah esoterically and allegorically. They believe in a hidden meaning behind the commands, and take these concepts over their literal meanings. `Alawis even believe that these secret meanings were hidden from the Prophet (pbuh), and was revealed to the Imams (as) and ibn Nusayr instead.
-Salat: Most Alawites don't pray five times a day, however, they gather every Thursday and dance (like Sufis). Dancing includes mixed sexes; both men and women dance together.
-Clothing: Most Alawite women don't even wear hijab.
Some Alawites even worship Bashar al-Assad besides Allah (swt) which is a shirk: [11].
I'm a Twelver Shia Muslim and we don't believe at all in any of these. Twelver Shias are very tiny minority in Syria. This article contains anti-Shia propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.57.129 ( talk) 02:03, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
I've read in some articles on the Internet and some books (Matti Moosa's "Extremist Shiites: The Ghulat Sects", Bar-Asher & Kofsky's "The Nuṣayrī‐ʿAlawī Religion", and Yaron Friedman's "The Nuṣayrī‐ʿAlawīs") that the Alawis tend to believe in the list of Imams that the Twelvers adhere to, and that they view the last Imam as the Mahdi. It almost seems to me that Muslim history consists of the shaving off of large groups of people at different points in time. The Shias believe that the Sunnis are kufr because they stole the caliphate from Ali. It seems like with the death of Hasan al-Askari that the Muslim community was further divided when they could not find a son (and a heir to the Imammate). There are also some articles on the Internet that believe that the Alawis adhere to the list of Imams given by the Twelvers but the key issue is with the Twelfth Imam. Since the origin of the Nusayri religion was with Ibn Nusayr, the Alawis believe that the true religion followed Nusayr and his successors into Syria (where it remains to this day), the mainstream Shias (Twelvers) have thus lost the faith. It's just a lot of irony, is the point.
It's important to distinguish between the different sects of Islam, in reality there are only three: the Sunni, Shi'i, and Alawi. They are characterized by further growing extremism. In general the Twelvers are called the mainstream Shias whereas the Alawis might be referred to as extremist (ghulat) Shias. But I think the Alawis are on whole 'nother roll. It's also pertinent to note that the Alawis are the only group in Islam that acknowledges the doctrine of the trinity. Anyways I agree that the Alawites constitute a separate religion. It is my personal view that the "true believers" were shaved off in a variety of tests since the death of Muhammad, the first test being the Sunni-Shia split. Before the Shia themselves split via the "great test" (the occultation), several of the Imams prophesied the existence of a test that would "let stand only our true Shi'is", I believe that that test was the death of Hasan al-Askari and the sudden (apparent) disappearance of the Imam. In reality the truth followed Nusayr and the 11th Imam did not have a son. This is probably why a lot of Islamic eschatology centers around Syria, the Prophet once said: "the people of Syria have been promised to me." A lot Muslims will cite the "adhere to the main body" Hadith, but my personal (and ironic) view is that the main body has been shaved down to the point of being unrecognizable. The truth is with the Alawites in Syria, all the other branches of Islam are in the fire.
Last note: this splaying has happened to other religions as well. The Alawites state that "there is no spiritual union without physical union" (in other words there is no spiritual enlightenment without sexual intercourse). That statement was made in response to accusations of sexual licentiousness amongst Alawis. The Alawis also partake of wine. This same type of Tantrism occurred to the Buddhist religion. There are only three branches of Buddhism: the Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana. The Vajrayanists state "without Karmamudra, no Mahamudra" (meaning: without sex, no enlightenment), the Vajryanists also partake of alcohol. It's pertinent to note that both the Theravada and Sunni branches of Buddhism and Islam, respectively, prohibit the use of alcohol. The former is celibate while the latter reserves sex for marriage. It's important to notice the same pattern being found in both religions: namely the splitting into three (theologically) different branches and the presence of antinomianism in the farthest branch. BboyYen ( talk) 06:25, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
I see the part about Khomeini's recognition was removed. It was in the source used at one point, found through Google Books. Perhaps it was replaced in the meantime, but if found, the content should be put back. FunkMonk ( talk) 20:47, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm reverting this edit because it is not tenable to make some reference to Alawite theology in the lead. The belief section now sumarises the main tenets of Alawite belief. The key sentences are each sourced to at least four inline citations of WP:RS. These include the product of modern neutral scholarship in the last decade. There is in fact no WP:RS which contradicts these statements. There is, IMHO, no legitimate reason to leave this out of the lead. However, it is quite noticeable that over the last 18 months SPAs have consistently re-shaped the article with the POV that Alawite belief is equal to Twelver Shi'a. DeCausa ( talk) 23:19, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: |first=
has generic name (
help)Oh really. You haven't produced one WP:RS to support your POV that what's in the article now is not a WP:NPOV summary of current mainstream scholarship on Alawite belief. Until you do that you don't have any credibility. Until I came across this article a year or two ago I had no interest or views on what Alawite belief may or may not be, and actually I don't care one way or the other in RL. It really is no RL concern of mine whether they are the most orthodox Muslims on the planet or they think that Ali is the Flying Spaghetti Monster. My personal POV is that all religions are equally ludicrous and there's nothing to choose between them. But what I do object to is flagrant disregard of WP:RS to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. It goes to the heart of what Wikipedia is about. DeCausa ( talk) 19:30, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Are Alawites just like the druze in that they reject converts or are they like the bohras and nizaris? do they accept convers? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.9.168.242 ( talk) 07:15, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
What do the last two sentences of the lede have to do with the article? Probably some nuance that escapes me. "Since Hafez al-Assad took power in 1970, the government has been dominated by a political elite led by the secular Al-Assad family. During the Islamic uprising in Syria during the 1970s and 1980s the establishment came under pressure, and the conflict continues as part of the Syrian civil war." -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 04:25, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
There is tendency among people in this article to present alawites as extremists. Even tough they are actually moderate in comparison with many orthodox sunni variations. Heterodoxy is not synonymous with extremism.
The article must avoid stating blindly the possible negative variations of alawite thought, like for example the belief "women have no souls" , even if existing (which can be questioned), religions are known for presenting philosophical differentiations inside the community itself. Hence the alawite community may present differentiations of thought within it. An alwite leader may,for example disagree from other alawite leader, and the community can present differentiations within it. Different interpretation are known among religions, specially one so open to innovation as the alawites.
The people who wrote this article most likely love demonizing alawites as "evil heretics", Wikipedia should not allow the demonization of an ethny. The ultra-orthodox sunnis and their supporters are the real extremists, and this is quite obvious, just look at their actions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.9.201.69 ( talk) 5:13 am, Today (UTC+1)
(1) Should the lead to the Alawites article include a summary of the section of the article entitled "Beliefs"?
(2) If "yes", should that summary be as follows:
Alawites have historically kept their beliefs secret from outsiders and non-initiated Alawites, so rumours about them have arisen. Arabic accounts of their beliefs tend to be partisan (either positively or negatively). [1] However, since the early 2000s, Western scholarship on the Alawite religion has made significant advances. [2] At the core of Alawite belief is a divine triad, comprising three aspects of the one God. These aspects or emanations appear cyclically in human form throughout history. The last emanations of the divine triad, according to Alawite belief, were as Ali, Muhammad and Salman the Persian. Alawites were historically persecuted for these beliefs by the Sunni Muslim rulers of the area.
- ^ Friedman, Yaron (2010). The Nuṣayrī-ʻAlawīs: An Introduction to the Religion, History, and Identity of the Leading Minority in Syria. p. 68. ISBN 9004178929.
- ^ Friedman, Yaron (2010). The Nuṣayrī-ʻAlawīs: An Introduction to the Religion, History, and Identity of the Leading Minority in Syria. p. 67. ISBN 9004178929.
DeCausa ( talk) 08:03, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
The above is a misrepresentation of my position, which I will outline here: I'm not proposing to remove anything. I'm proposing that controversial claims be attributed to author x of y nationality for context and caution per WP:In-text attribution, and that we add that no claims about Alawite beliefs have been confirmed by Alawites themselves per WP:UNDUE, and that many claims may even be based on rumours/misinterpretations/outdated scholarship, per sources linked above. FunkMonk ( talk) 16:15, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
Numerous IPs keep attempting to add info to the article stating how Alawites groups have Kurdish origins. The text cited does not back up this claim. Thanks. Ism schism ( talk) 15:10, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
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There was a long and sourced fragment completely removed from article. Some people try their best to "prove" that Alawites are Twelver Shia Muslims while they themselves do not consider themselves as such and hold VERY distinct system of belief than mainstream Shia Islam. Removed fragment:
"The tenth-century Twelver heresiographer Abu Muhammad al-Hassan ibn Musa al-Nawbakhti claimed the Alawi founder propagated the un-Islamic belief of the transmigration of souls and permitted homosexual relations. Jurists such as the eleventh-century scholar Muhammad bin al-Hassan al-Tusi accused the Alawis of heresy and cursed them for permitting what was forbidden. In 1834 Twelvers raised troops for the Ottomans to quash an Alawi revolt.
When European travelers began visiting Syria in the eighteenth century, Alawis informed them they were Christians. To prevent missionaries from claiming them as lost Christians, the Ottomans asserted they were Muslims. Mosques were built. But the Alawis rejected these attempts of integration into the Islamic community. When the French ruled Syria, they too tried to incorporate them into the Islamic fold. Twelver judges were imported to establish courts. But the Alawis rebuffed them as well. In 1948, Alawi students went to the Twelver center of Najaf, Iraq to learn their doctrines. But after being ridiculed and scorned, most quickly returned home.
In the 1960s, Alawis officers took power in Syria. But they did not establish cordial ties with Iran. Instead, it was the Iran-Iraq war that proved a turning point. But religious ties between the Alawis and Twelvers were as strained as ever. A 1985 American diplomatic cable noted that Twelver scholars “view the Alawis as heretical and despicable.” Indicative of the abyss between them, Twelvers sought to proselytize among the Alawis. Six Twelver preachers were arrested for doing so in 1996." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.19.103.245 ( talk) 11:17, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
We can finally put the fight about Alawites and their belief to the side as their own religious body issued a public note on that [22]:
"The community and religious leaders say they hope to "shine a light" on the Alawites after a long period of secrecy, at what they call "an important moment" in their history.
In the eight-page document, termed a "declaration of identity reform", the Alawites say they represent a third model "of and within Islam".
Those behind the text say Alawites are not members of a branch of Shia Islam - as they have been described in the past by Shia clerics - and that they are committed to "the fight against sectarian strife".
They also make clear that they adhere to "the values of equality, liberty and citizenship", and call for secularism to be the future of Syria, and a system of governance in which Islam, Christianity and all other religions are equal.
In the document published on Sunday, the Alawite leaders insist that their faith is "solely based on the idea of worshipping God". They add that "the Koran alone is our holy book and a clear reference to our Muslim quality".
While acknowledging that they share some formal religious sources, the leaders stress that Alawism is distinct from Shia Islam, and decline previous legal rulings, or fatwas, by leading Shia clerics that seek to "appropriate the Alawites and consider Alawism an integral part of Shiism or a branch of the latter".
The leaders also acknowledge that Alawites have incorporated elements of other monotheistic religions into their traditions, most notably Judaism and Christianity, but say they should "not be seen as marks of deviation from Islam but as elements that bear witness to our riches and universality".
So the anonymous user who fought previously for so long was right, Alawites are a different religion within itself, NOT a branch of Shia Islam. This should go to the Criticism of Wikipedia, as it caused all foreign Wikis to basically repeat an English one on that causing massive misinformation.
The area is disputed, a private person can't determine if it should be Lebanon or Israel. Therefore, I suggest to just write "Golan Hights". Any objection? Israelly ( talk) 20:38, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
"The region was home to a mostly-rural, heterogeneous population. The landowning families and 80 percent of the population of the port city of Latakia were Sunni Muslim; however, in rural areas 62 percent of the population were Alawite peasants. There was considerable Alawite separatist sentiment in the region,[51] evidenced by a 1936 letter signed by 80 Alawi leaders addressed to the French Prime Minister which said that the "Alawite people rejected attachment to Syria and wished to stay under French protection". Among the signatories was Sulayman Ali al-Assad, father of Hafez al-Assad.[51] Even during this time of increased Alawite rights, the situation was still so bad for the group that many females had to leave their homes to work for urban Sunnis - many becoming mistresses to their employers - which is why it was estimated that 25% of all Alawite children in the 1930s and 40s had Sunni fathers.[52] " — Preceding unsigned comment added by عراف الجبل ( talk • contribs) 11:29, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
It seems as though you are an Alawite who takes offence to this edit. That is understandable but please stop vandalising the article by trying to remove it or change it to this. The edit is well sourced and relevant and your own personal feelings about the edit are irrelevant. You have been warned about this before by other editors and if you keep vandalising it then i will report you to be blocked from editing. -- 118.222.229.61 ( talk) 08:46, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
You are the same person who wants to keep this unreal fact and stop change your site and your IP يوسف عاشق الجبل ( talk) 09:21, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
I am Syrian and from the Alawite sect and I know all the real details about my sect more than anyone even if he claims to be a scholar. Please stop marketing offensive information about my sect through the encyclopedia, especially by one person who changes his IP. يوسف عاشق الجبل ( talk) 11:37, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not for those like you who want to market false information about my sect for political reasons. يوسف عاشق الجبل ( talk) 09:17, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
WHO ARE YOU to tell me what to do and what not to do. You are but an IP. يوسف عاشق الجبل ( talk) 09:23, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
For you 118.222.229.61 : My tribe was Christian and then it became Sunni and then it became Alawi and I am a descendant of the prince of this tribe of the same lineage of an Alawi feudal family. يوسف عاشق الجبل ( talk) 08:15, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
I comment here as 118.222.229.61 has requested a third opinion [24]. First of all, you both (the IP and يوسف عاشق الجبل) need to change behavior. You have both violated WP:3RR and could not be blocked. No, neither the adding or the removal of the debated text was "vandalism", so neither of you had any legitimate reason to edit war as you did. I have requested temporary protection for the article. As for the matter of the dispute, I am inclined to agree with يوسف عاشق الجبل. I see no good reason why this text is WP:DUE here. Yes, it is sourced, but being sourced is not always enough. At the very least, the onus is on the IP to argue for why the text belongs in the article. That has not been done. As for now, I restore the article to have it looked before your edit war. This restoration is not an endorsement of either view, just respecting WP:BRD. Once more, you both need to change both the way you address other users and the way you edit. Jeppiz ( talk) 23:31, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
Thank you @ Jeppiz:: I want to tell the IP (118.222.229.61) that Jeppiz has no preconceived ideas and prejudices against a specific sect. Poverty and bad conditions were present among all residents of Syria in that era, especially among urban dwellers. It is a ridiculous request, for example, to ask a person (whose parents we do not know) to prove that he is a legitimate child of his parents. There are many sources with political malignant purposes that can not be trusted at all. يوسف عاشق الجبل ( talk) 07:39, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
Answer IP, I agree with يوسف عاشق الجبل that the text is potentially offensive. Now, you are right in saying that offensive does not mean we cannot say it (many articles state well-sourced facts that may offend some people). However, if we include something that might be offensive, the very least we would expect is that it is relevant and with strong backing in sources. It is debatable whether one single source from 25 years ago is strong enough, but that's not the main issue. The main issue is why this text is WP:DUE, as I already pointed out. Once again, if you want to include, then the onus is on you to make that argument. Jeppiz ( talk) 17:27, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
The phrase which Daniel Pipes mentioned in his book ( which the IP 118.222.229.61 relies on) is not intended to clarify real information but rather to offend a certain sect. Daniel Pipes is known for his anti-Arab tendencies and he supports Israel, so he has many political ideas he wants to market to the media in order to diminish the value of Alawite minority in Syria because the president of Syria is Alawi and hostile to Israel. The Alawites were in mountainous areas and few of Alawi men worked in cities for Sunni families. Alawites did not even send their underage daughters to schools in the cities, so how would they send their underage daughters to work for Sunni families? Many Alawi women married Sunni men but those women were not mistresses or prostitutes. As Mr @ Jeppiz: pointed out, the text is WP:DUE. يوسف عاشق الجبل ( talk) 08:10, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
I am not even concerned about religions and beliefs, but I would say it was a good move that you locked the article from being edited by some lame users who vandalize edits without having an account !! However, this user 118.222.229.61 who happens to be an anti-alawite is trying to enforce some shitty opinions like himself on readers ! If that is the claim then all Sunnis are Mongolian leftovers as Timur’s army never left any virgin especially in the big cities !! That ip user should be sent in real life to his beloved jihadi boys to be dealt with (like with armed drones) !! Mark Mercer ( talk) 19:21, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
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Hi! there I recently noticed that this article is seem to be adding the vandalized information, such as adding the description of the Alid community in this article, and considering the Alevis and Nusayri Alawites as same as Alids, However, Alids are the descendants of the 4th Caliph Ali ibn Abi Talib and Nusayris and Alevis are the Shia Muslim sects, only their terms are similar to the Alids. 111.88.90.249 ( talk) 18:57, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Alawites are not Shias and never were considered as such by anyone but modern day Wahhabis. Alawites don’t attend Twelver mosques and services, they don’t pray daily, they do drink alcohol, don’t perform Hajj, and their women barely veil. Even Ibn Taymiyyah mentioned that they are not Shias, neither were they ever classified as such by Shia Islamic scholars of the past like Shaykh Tusi. Both Assads - Hafez and Bashar, deported Iranian ulama who sought to make Alawites into Shias. Alawites are completely unrelated and separate religious group. If they are to be considered as a “Shia sect”, then Ahmadis and Nation of Islam are a “Sunni sect”.
What are the scriptures besides the Quran they accept? It's only alluded to in the third paragraph, perhaps we could flesh it out with more detail? 24.44.73.34 ( talk) 19:14, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the response. 24.44.73.34 ( talk) 16:39, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
The Arabic articles that were cited as sources to the alleged "Massacre of the Telal" are dubious. Both sources claim that the alleged massacre was reported in a letter sent to the Ottoman Sultan and claim that the letter is preserved in the National library of Strasbourg. However, both articles do not give any further information about the letter that could help us reach it, not even a title. This fact, combined with the wording of the articles, could help us reach a conclusion that they are nothing but pure propaganda. Steve Hurrington ( talk) 18:27, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
As far as I know Nusayris is not an insult
as the article say and repeat
the name was driven from Ibn Nusayr [25] Carnegie6 ( talk) 01:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
In the article, sentence about Uğur Şahin being an alawite is cited as source of an article; however, source does not specifies, just assumes. Article journalist says He's from Alexandretta an alevi, so his parents must be relocated from Syria 200 hundred years ago this is not a source but an assume. Therefore, whole part of Uğur Şahin have to be deleted or should be cited with a reliable, definitive source. 31.223.43.88 ( talk) 16:13, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Are some users missing that their edits are insert Lebanon twice into the infobox? For areas inhabited by Alawites are uncontestedly in Lebanon, they are already already included in Lebanon. For the parts of the Golan Heights under Israeli control (which both the Alawites of the area and I myself consider Syrian), it is contested between Israel, Lebanon, and Syria. The current version reads as if the Golan Heights are all Lebanese, which nobody claims. This is not an issue of one POV versus another, purely of a factually incorrect infobox. This shouldn't even be an issue, WP:COMPETENCE very much applies. Jeppiz ( talk) 16:13, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
I disagree with @ FunkMonk on his decision to revert the Shrine picture to the Zulfiqar, as the page image. The Zulfiqar is too broad to be used to symbolize Alawites. Here are some examples of articles in the Arabic Wikipedia that use the Zulfiqar:
On the other hand, the shrine is a very typical Alawite Maqam, it is very representative. Not just this particular Shrine, but these kinds of Shrines (or Maqams, or Ziyarahs). There are hundreds of these in the Levant, and this is a very characteristic Alawite Shrine because of the typical white paint and the typical architecture.
One other reason that made me think this picture has great representative value is this summarized quote from Sevan Nisanyan, who is knowledgeable on these matters, from a video:
“ | I didn't know much about the Nusayris until I turned 30. I've traveled extensively in Turkey since a young age, but I was unaware of the Nusayris, especially in the southern region around Antakya, Hatay. In this area, there's a significant population of Arabic-speaking people who identify themselves as Alawites. Their traditions and beliefs are quite distinct from other Alevi communities in Turkey. Interestingly, they have white-painted tombs scattered throughout the mountains, resembling Greek churches. They are often situated in picturesque locations, perched on the mountaintops, hillsides, or even near the entrance of caves. The exteriors of these tombs are painted in a striking white color, similar to the aesthetics of Rum (Greek) churches in Greece. The architectural design includes domes, creating a visual similarity to the small shrines and churches seen in Greek landscapes. These places, unlike typical Alevi practices in other parts of Turkey, involve unique rituals. The term "Nusayri" is used by outsiders; the locals don't appreciate it. There's a debate about the meaning of the term, with some suggesting it originated from an Arab figure in the 12th century. However, it is also considered an insult, meaning "small Christians" or "Christian." The Nusayris have their unique beliefs, and stories suggest that they either converted from Christianity or share similarities with Christians due to historical interactions. | ” |
I would like to have a constructive discussion on this subject that we can learn from each other. Also, I would like to invite @ PaFra and @ Solmissos to the discussion if they have time, due to their expertise on the subject. TheJoyfulTentmaker ( talk) 02:35, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
I removed the use of the word "regime" because it seems loaded. ItsRainingCatsAndDogsAndMen ( talk) 14:30, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
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This topic is extremely incorrect. The Alawites do not believe imam Ali to be an incarnation of god 120.21.186.112 ( talk) 13:54, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
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The result of the proposal was moved. -- BDD ( talk) 19:56, 27 December 2012 (UTC) ( non-admin closure)
This article was moved to "Alawi" some time back for some shaky reasons. Now with all the media attention, "Alawite" seems to in most common use. FunkMonk ( talk) 20:06, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
Page moved as requested, along with this talk page. I've also manually moved a couple of archive pages - if I've missed any let me know. An optimist on the run! 20:46, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
Many weird allegations against Alawites have been made over the centuries to demonise them, and now a user wants to repeat some of it here, without providing proper sourcing; a radio programme is not a scholarly, reliable source. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fringe_theories FunkMonk ( talk) 23:12, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
It does not take much imagination to see how such beliefs, programmed into the community’s values for more than a millennium, and reinforced by customs such as endogamous marriage — according to which the children of unions between Nusayris and non-Nusayris cannot be initiated into the sect — create very strong notions of apartness and disdain for the “Other.” "
So beliefs the alawite woman described that you said were the demonising fantasies of the BBC believed in only by retards keep showing up when i google alawite beliefs - she said she got grief too for dating a Sunni lad - i must say your extreme whining chimes very well really with an exclusive inward-looking paranoid set up. are the Alawites over-represented in the security forces btw. Do you know? Sayerslle ( talk) 20:14, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Let me chime in as a Sunni Muslim. The Syrian war is absolutely filled with propaganda. Both the government and the opposition have gone full gear and the truth is very to discern. Especially considering the fact that Syria is so dangerous for journalists they ns they often report what Syrians tell them. Syrians who have aren't journalists trying to report the truth but rather people trying to achieve political goals. The opposition is a lot more successful than the government and one of their main talking points in the religious sect of President Assad. The propaganda about Alawis having weird beliefs,doing strange stuff and "oppressing the Sunnis" feeds into the general feeling among a lot of Sunnis that we are superior to other Muslim sects because only we are true Muslims and they wish to harm us. Obviously anyone who knows anything about the Ba'ath government in Syria will know that it's a secular party. The security forces have a disproportionate amount of Alawis because they are more loyal to the President but the government doesn't in general discriminate based on faith. Wikipedia should be very careful and only report what is based on facts. If we report every sensational accusations against the Alawis, then we are setting up an entire group of people to be ethnically cleansed at best and massacred at worst. Don't forget what happened to the Tawerghans in Libya. The media around the world dutifully reporting Rebel propaganda lead to the belief that Black tawerghans were going around raping Arab women. It has lead to 30,000 people being ethnically cleansed, thousands of them in makeshift jails being tortured and murdered by Misratan rebels. Remember genocide always starts with the dehumanisation of the target group.
62.31.145.100 (
talk) 06:17, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
There is tendency among people in this article to present alawites as extremists. Even tough they are actually moderate in comparison with many orthodox sunni variations. Heterodoxy is not synonymous with extremism. The article must avoid stating blindly the possible negative variations of alawite thought, like for example the belief "women have no souls" , even if existing (which can be questioned), religions are known for presenting philosophical differentiations inside the community itself. Hence the alawite community may present differentiations of thought within it. An alwite leader may,for example disagree from other alawite leader, and the community can present differentiations within it. Different interpretation are known among religions, specially one so open to innovation as the alawites. The people who wrote this article most likely love demonizing alawites as "evil heretics", Wikipedia should not allow the demonization of an ethny. The ultra-orthodox sunnis and their supporters are the real extremists, and this is quite obvious, just look at their actions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.9.201.69 ( talk) 04:13, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Never heard of the term 'ghulat' before but an experienced editor is willing to go to the 3RR limit to keep the category off the article. This Jerusalem Post article clearly states that other Shia have called the Alawites religion 'extremist' which in Arabic is 'ghulat'. [3] Alatari ( talk) 21:59, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
The article cites a source several times calling Alawite a ghulat sect: # ^ a b c d Moosa, Matti (1987). Extremist Shiites: The Ghulat Sects. Syracuse University Press. pp. 282–283. ISBN 0-8156-2411-5. Alatari ( talk) 22:03, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Matti Moosa, historian on the Middle East, calls them ghulat and wrote a book on the various ghulat sects of Shia and his text is used as a source for the article. That is a reliable, non-fringe source. That is what Wikipedia relies upon for the inclusion of the material. Here is the page: [4] Alatari ( talk) 23:14, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
This is the page that matters. Copy your answer here and we'll talk only here then. Alatari ( talk) 23:45, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Moosa categorizes in his own words several religious sects as Ghulat Sects in this book: [5] Alatari ( talk) 23:47, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Then why has the article been purged of the term 'ghulat'? Many other pages across the internet borrow from earlier copies of this Wikipedia article and have the term ghulat but this article now has been censored. I concede the point that Category:Heretic is not applied to Galileo and others considered heretics throughout history. Alatari ( talk) 23:52, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I was referring to long dead heretics, like Galileo. Alatari ( talk) 00:03, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm reading Moosas book now and he clearly calls them Ghulat sects throughout the book with no reference to it being a pejorative. He is a recognized historian of Islam and the Middle East and we do not censor Wikipedia because you think it's a derogatory term. The Alawite religion is not a single person and is not covered by the rules about individual biographies. WP:PROFANE Alatari ( talk) 00:25, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I understand your objection so find some reliable historian to offset Moosa's view as calling them extremists. The Alawites were persecuted for being considered heretics by Sunnis. This is the nature of religious fighting. Someone's divine dogma is someone elses heresy. Alatari ( talk) 00:38, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I noticed you removed the Alawites from the ghulat article even though Moosa is a reliable source for their inclusion there. [ [6]] Alatari ( talk) 00:38, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Ghulat is obviously a derogatory term, used to demonize an entire ethny. A justification for the real extremists to repress and even kill a religious minority. Also, "ghulat" is given not supposed to be a term given in the sense of them being religious fanatics, but in the sense of they supposedly giving too much Importance to the character of ali. Maybe now they are masking their persecution of muslim minorities by calling them "extremists" to seek sympathy from non-muslims.
The Encyclopedia of Islam has an article on the Alawites written by Heinz Halm. Here is the first paragraph:
NUSAYRIYYA, a Shīʿī sect widely dispersed in western Syria and in the south-east of present day Turkey; the only branch of extreme (ghuluww) Kūfan Shīʿism which has survived into the contemporary period.
Also here is the first line of the "Doctrines" section:
As ghulat, the Nusayriyya venerate Ali b. Abi Talib as supreme and eternal God (al-ilāh al-aʿẓam, al-qadīm al-azal).
It is obvious that the term "ghulat" is an important distinction here that should not be ignored. It is also being used to describe their beliefs from an academic/historical perspective.
As a side comment on the previous discussion, Halm also has this to say on their beliefs concerning women:
He who recognises the identity of the maʿnā is saved and may escape from metempsychosis; his soul, released from the body and transformed into a star, resumes its journey back across the seven heavens to arrive at the ultimate objective (ghāya), sc. contemplation (muʿāyana) of the divine light. Women are excluded from this because they are born of the sins of devils; for this reason, they are not entitled to participate in the rites of men (Sulaymān, Bākūra, 61). The popular religion of the Nusayriyya, especially that of women, retains traces of paganism (veneration of high places, of springs, of green trees). (p. 148) [1]
Wiqi( 55) 00:14, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Here Moosa says that the extremist Alawites (Nusayri) are considered heretics by the majority of Sunni followers. [7] If his opinion is not notable then that is another matter. If he is a recognized authority on Middle Eastern religions then it needs to be included and it is not fringe as FunkMunk has been trying to claim. Alatari ( talk) 00:32, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
The discussion and vote is taking place here [10]. I changed my vote to delete per Johnlambert's opinion it can be misused on Wikipedia. As for this article and the ghulat article I think the word ghulat should be added back to the article per the authority of Moosa and the usage in other sources. If it is offensive to the Nusairis then Funkmonk can provide sources as to why it is a hurtful pejorative term. Alatari ( talk) 00:55, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Something illustrative like an Alawite being stoned to death while people chant 'Ghulat, ghulat' around the scene kind of source that gives us readers an idea how hurtful a term it is. Alatari ( talk) 01:08, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
I've repaired most of the grammar issues. Can someone just make sure they're okay? 19:25, 22 March 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.40.180 ( talk)
Aside from living in a specific area of Syria, I can't see what cultural differences this group has....is it ethnicity or theological differences? Do they have a smaller range of occupations, food or clothing differences? Specific stories they tell about their culture or different mosques? In a completely neutral way, what "marks" Alawites as different from the majority culture of Syrian? This entry is a bit of an outline of modern Alawite integration into Syrian population but doesn't say much about Alawite "culture". 69.125.134.86 ( talk) 12:58, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
The section names Heterodox, Orthodox, are not fitting in Wikipedia since Wikipedia takes no religious stance about what is what. I propose either deleting the section headings, or renaming them to something that does not give the impression that Wikipedia have an opinion. Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 10:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
I will remove the last section about alawis being slaughtered by Ali, this story is obviously aimed to discredit alawis, the source is...just a guy on the internet with his blog. I find it hard to believe there is absoutely nothing on that webpage about their true belief. I don't think it's that hard to find. I also think Saudi should nor be allowed to write on wikipedia until they acknowledge the existence of logic Klinfran ( talk) 16:13, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
Our Shia Sheikh told us multiple times that Bashar al Asad is a kafir and Alawites are not Shia Muslims at all because they believe in reincarnation and drink alcohol, among many things. They also don't pray five times a day. He also pointed out that when they tried to convert Alawites to Islam, Bashar forbid of building new Shia mosques in Syria and even went after them, Twelvers. Categorizing Alawites as Shias is very debatable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.57.129 ( talk) 17:04, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm continuing as nobody answered my facts, moreover, somebody not only spread lies in this article that Alawites are Shias but also that they are Twelvers. Both claims are completely false. No Shias, especially Twelvers believe in Alawite doctrine:
-Reincarnation: this appears to have been an original ibn Nusayri teaching, that one can reincarnate several times. Women do not reincarnate. Men, however, can live 7 lives as faithful `Alawis, and then finally join 'Ali (as) in a celestial heaven. If they are not faithful, they will be reborn as Christians as a punishment. Non-Alawis reincarnate into animals.
-Trinity: `Alawis believe in three incarnations of God: `Ali (as), Muhammad (pbuh), and Salman al-Farisi (ra). Each of the three have their own mystical significance, `Ali being the meaning, Muhammed being the name, and Salman al-Farisi being the gate. The short version of the `Alawi shahada is "I testify that there is no God but Ali," (la ilaha illa-`Ali), the long version (`ayn meem seen) which recognizes the full Trinity says: `I have borne witness that there is no God but He, the most High, the object of worship [al-'Ali al-Ma'bud] and that there is no concealing veil (hijab) except the lord Muhammad, the object of praise, (as-Sayyid Muhmmad al-Mahmud), and there is not Bab except the lord Salman al-Farisi`
-Rejection of the Qur'an: `Alawis reject the literal meanings of the Qur'an, and instead emphasize spiritual, mystical, and metaphorical practices and sayings.
-Celebration of Christian and Persian holidays: Since the religion had a long standing in Christendom, they adopted some Christian celebrations including Christmas, Easter, Palm Sunday, and have their own unique practices for these days, which include the communion associated with Catholic tradition. `Alawis also celebrate Nawruz, marking the Persian new year.
-Mysticism: In the `Alawiyya, there are many connections with the Isma'iiyya, as they both view the Islamic shari`ah esoterically and allegorically. They believe in a hidden meaning behind the commands, and take these concepts over their literal meanings. `Alawis even believe that these secret meanings were hidden from the Prophet (pbuh), and was revealed to the Imams (as) and ibn Nusayr instead.
-Salat: Most Alawites don't pray five times a day, however, they gather every Thursday and dance (like Sufis). Dancing includes mixed sexes; both men and women dance together.
-Clothing: Most Alawite women don't even wear hijab.
Some Alawites even worship Bashar al-Assad besides Allah (swt) which is a shirk: [11].
I'm a Twelver Shia Muslim and we don't believe at all in any of these. Twelver Shias are very tiny minority in Syria. This article contains anti-Shia propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.57.129 ( talk) 02:03, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
I've read in some articles on the Internet and some books (Matti Moosa's "Extremist Shiites: The Ghulat Sects", Bar-Asher & Kofsky's "The Nuṣayrī‐ʿAlawī Religion", and Yaron Friedman's "The Nuṣayrī‐ʿAlawīs") that the Alawis tend to believe in the list of Imams that the Twelvers adhere to, and that they view the last Imam as the Mahdi. It almost seems to me that Muslim history consists of the shaving off of large groups of people at different points in time. The Shias believe that the Sunnis are kufr because they stole the caliphate from Ali. It seems like with the death of Hasan al-Askari that the Muslim community was further divided when they could not find a son (and a heir to the Imammate). There are also some articles on the Internet that believe that the Alawis adhere to the list of Imams given by the Twelvers but the key issue is with the Twelfth Imam. Since the origin of the Nusayri religion was with Ibn Nusayr, the Alawis believe that the true religion followed Nusayr and his successors into Syria (where it remains to this day), the mainstream Shias (Twelvers) have thus lost the faith. It's just a lot of irony, is the point.
It's important to distinguish between the different sects of Islam, in reality there are only three: the Sunni, Shi'i, and Alawi. They are characterized by further growing extremism. In general the Twelvers are called the mainstream Shias whereas the Alawis might be referred to as extremist (ghulat) Shias. But I think the Alawis are on whole 'nother roll. It's also pertinent to note that the Alawis are the only group in Islam that acknowledges the doctrine of the trinity. Anyways I agree that the Alawites constitute a separate religion. It is my personal view that the "true believers" were shaved off in a variety of tests since the death of Muhammad, the first test being the Sunni-Shia split. Before the Shia themselves split via the "great test" (the occultation), several of the Imams prophesied the existence of a test that would "let stand only our true Shi'is", I believe that that test was the death of Hasan al-Askari and the sudden (apparent) disappearance of the Imam. In reality the truth followed Nusayr and the 11th Imam did not have a son. This is probably why a lot of Islamic eschatology centers around Syria, the Prophet once said: "the people of Syria have been promised to me." A lot Muslims will cite the "adhere to the main body" Hadith, but my personal (and ironic) view is that the main body has been shaved down to the point of being unrecognizable. The truth is with the Alawites in Syria, all the other branches of Islam are in the fire.
Last note: this splaying has happened to other religions as well. The Alawites state that "there is no spiritual union without physical union" (in other words there is no spiritual enlightenment without sexual intercourse). That statement was made in response to accusations of sexual licentiousness amongst Alawis. The Alawis also partake of wine. This same type of Tantrism occurred to the Buddhist religion. There are only three branches of Buddhism: the Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana. The Vajrayanists state "without Karmamudra, no Mahamudra" (meaning: without sex, no enlightenment), the Vajryanists also partake of alcohol. It's pertinent to note that both the Theravada and Sunni branches of Buddhism and Islam, respectively, prohibit the use of alcohol. The former is celibate while the latter reserves sex for marriage. It's important to notice the same pattern being found in both religions: namely the splitting into three (theologically) different branches and the presence of antinomianism in the farthest branch. BboyYen ( talk) 06:25, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
I see the part about Khomeini's recognition was removed. It was in the source used at one point, found through Google Books. Perhaps it was replaced in the meantime, but if found, the content should be put back. FunkMonk ( talk) 20:47, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm reverting this edit because it is not tenable to make some reference to Alawite theology in the lead. The belief section now sumarises the main tenets of Alawite belief. The key sentences are each sourced to at least four inline citations of WP:RS. These include the product of modern neutral scholarship in the last decade. There is in fact no WP:RS which contradicts these statements. There is, IMHO, no legitimate reason to leave this out of the lead. However, it is quite noticeable that over the last 18 months SPAs have consistently re-shaped the article with the POV that Alawite belief is equal to Twelver Shi'a. DeCausa ( talk) 23:19, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: |first=
has generic name (
help)Oh really. You haven't produced one WP:RS to support your POV that what's in the article now is not a WP:NPOV summary of current mainstream scholarship on Alawite belief. Until you do that you don't have any credibility. Until I came across this article a year or two ago I had no interest or views on what Alawite belief may or may not be, and actually I don't care one way or the other in RL. It really is no RL concern of mine whether they are the most orthodox Muslims on the planet or they think that Ali is the Flying Spaghetti Monster. My personal POV is that all religions are equally ludicrous and there's nothing to choose between them. But what I do object to is flagrant disregard of WP:RS to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. It goes to the heart of what Wikipedia is about. DeCausa ( talk) 19:30, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Are Alawites just like the druze in that they reject converts or are they like the bohras and nizaris? do they accept convers? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.9.168.242 ( talk) 07:15, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
What do the last two sentences of the lede have to do with the article? Probably some nuance that escapes me. "Since Hafez al-Assad took power in 1970, the government has been dominated by a political elite led by the secular Al-Assad family. During the Islamic uprising in Syria during the 1970s and 1980s the establishment came under pressure, and the conflict continues as part of the Syrian civil war." -- Richardson mcphillips ( talk) 04:25, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
There is tendency among people in this article to present alawites as extremists. Even tough they are actually moderate in comparison with many orthodox sunni variations. Heterodoxy is not synonymous with extremism.
The article must avoid stating blindly the possible negative variations of alawite thought, like for example the belief "women have no souls" , even if existing (which can be questioned), religions are known for presenting philosophical differentiations inside the community itself. Hence the alawite community may present differentiations of thought within it. An alwite leader may,for example disagree from other alawite leader, and the community can present differentiations within it. Different interpretation are known among religions, specially one so open to innovation as the alawites.
The people who wrote this article most likely love demonizing alawites as "evil heretics", Wikipedia should not allow the demonization of an ethny. The ultra-orthodox sunnis and their supporters are the real extremists, and this is quite obvious, just look at their actions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.9.201.69 ( talk) 5:13 am, Today (UTC+1)
(1) Should the lead to the Alawites article include a summary of the section of the article entitled "Beliefs"?
(2) If "yes", should that summary be as follows:
Alawites have historically kept their beliefs secret from outsiders and non-initiated Alawites, so rumours about them have arisen. Arabic accounts of their beliefs tend to be partisan (either positively or negatively). [1] However, since the early 2000s, Western scholarship on the Alawite religion has made significant advances. [2] At the core of Alawite belief is a divine triad, comprising three aspects of the one God. These aspects or emanations appear cyclically in human form throughout history. The last emanations of the divine triad, according to Alawite belief, were as Ali, Muhammad and Salman the Persian. Alawites were historically persecuted for these beliefs by the Sunni Muslim rulers of the area.
- ^ Friedman, Yaron (2010). The Nuṣayrī-ʻAlawīs: An Introduction to the Religion, History, and Identity of the Leading Minority in Syria. p. 68. ISBN 9004178929.
- ^ Friedman, Yaron (2010). The Nuṣayrī-ʻAlawīs: An Introduction to the Religion, History, and Identity of the Leading Minority in Syria. p. 67. ISBN 9004178929.
DeCausa ( talk) 08:03, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
The above is a misrepresentation of my position, which I will outline here: I'm not proposing to remove anything. I'm proposing that controversial claims be attributed to author x of y nationality for context and caution per WP:In-text attribution, and that we add that no claims about Alawite beliefs have been confirmed by Alawites themselves per WP:UNDUE, and that many claims may even be based on rumours/misinterpretations/outdated scholarship, per sources linked above. FunkMonk ( talk) 16:15, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
Numerous IPs keep attempting to add info to the article stating how Alawites groups have Kurdish origins. The text cited does not back up this claim. Thanks. Ism schism ( talk) 15:10, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
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There was a long and sourced fragment completely removed from article. Some people try their best to "prove" that Alawites are Twelver Shia Muslims while they themselves do not consider themselves as such and hold VERY distinct system of belief than mainstream Shia Islam. Removed fragment:
"The tenth-century Twelver heresiographer Abu Muhammad al-Hassan ibn Musa al-Nawbakhti claimed the Alawi founder propagated the un-Islamic belief of the transmigration of souls and permitted homosexual relations. Jurists such as the eleventh-century scholar Muhammad bin al-Hassan al-Tusi accused the Alawis of heresy and cursed them for permitting what was forbidden. In 1834 Twelvers raised troops for the Ottomans to quash an Alawi revolt.
When European travelers began visiting Syria in the eighteenth century, Alawis informed them they were Christians. To prevent missionaries from claiming them as lost Christians, the Ottomans asserted they were Muslims. Mosques were built. But the Alawis rejected these attempts of integration into the Islamic community. When the French ruled Syria, they too tried to incorporate them into the Islamic fold. Twelver judges were imported to establish courts. But the Alawis rebuffed them as well. In 1948, Alawi students went to the Twelver center of Najaf, Iraq to learn their doctrines. But after being ridiculed and scorned, most quickly returned home.
In the 1960s, Alawis officers took power in Syria. But they did not establish cordial ties with Iran. Instead, it was the Iran-Iraq war that proved a turning point. But religious ties between the Alawis and Twelvers were as strained as ever. A 1985 American diplomatic cable noted that Twelver scholars “view the Alawis as heretical and despicable.” Indicative of the abyss between them, Twelvers sought to proselytize among the Alawis. Six Twelver preachers were arrested for doing so in 1996." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.19.103.245 ( talk) 11:17, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
We can finally put the fight about Alawites and their belief to the side as their own religious body issued a public note on that [22]:
"The community and religious leaders say they hope to "shine a light" on the Alawites after a long period of secrecy, at what they call "an important moment" in their history.
In the eight-page document, termed a "declaration of identity reform", the Alawites say they represent a third model "of and within Islam".
Those behind the text say Alawites are not members of a branch of Shia Islam - as they have been described in the past by Shia clerics - and that they are committed to "the fight against sectarian strife".
They also make clear that they adhere to "the values of equality, liberty and citizenship", and call for secularism to be the future of Syria, and a system of governance in which Islam, Christianity and all other religions are equal.
In the document published on Sunday, the Alawite leaders insist that their faith is "solely based on the idea of worshipping God". They add that "the Koran alone is our holy book and a clear reference to our Muslim quality".
While acknowledging that they share some formal religious sources, the leaders stress that Alawism is distinct from Shia Islam, and decline previous legal rulings, or fatwas, by leading Shia clerics that seek to "appropriate the Alawites and consider Alawism an integral part of Shiism or a branch of the latter".
The leaders also acknowledge that Alawites have incorporated elements of other monotheistic religions into their traditions, most notably Judaism and Christianity, but say they should "not be seen as marks of deviation from Islam but as elements that bear witness to our riches and universality".
So the anonymous user who fought previously for so long was right, Alawites are a different religion within itself, NOT a branch of Shia Islam. This should go to the Criticism of Wikipedia, as it caused all foreign Wikis to basically repeat an English one on that causing massive misinformation.
The area is disputed, a private person can't determine if it should be Lebanon or Israel. Therefore, I suggest to just write "Golan Hights". Any objection? Israelly ( talk) 20:38, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
"The region was home to a mostly-rural, heterogeneous population. The landowning families and 80 percent of the population of the port city of Latakia were Sunni Muslim; however, in rural areas 62 percent of the population were Alawite peasants. There was considerable Alawite separatist sentiment in the region,[51] evidenced by a 1936 letter signed by 80 Alawi leaders addressed to the French Prime Minister which said that the "Alawite people rejected attachment to Syria and wished to stay under French protection". Among the signatories was Sulayman Ali al-Assad, father of Hafez al-Assad.[51] Even during this time of increased Alawite rights, the situation was still so bad for the group that many females had to leave their homes to work for urban Sunnis - many becoming mistresses to their employers - which is why it was estimated that 25% of all Alawite children in the 1930s and 40s had Sunni fathers.[52] " — Preceding unsigned comment added by عراف الجبل ( talk • contribs) 11:29, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
It seems as though you are an Alawite who takes offence to this edit. That is understandable but please stop vandalising the article by trying to remove it or change it to this. The edit is well sourced and relevant and your own personal feelings about the edit are irrelevant. You have been warned about this before by other editors and if you keep vandalising it then i will report you to be blocked from editing. -- 118.222.229.61 ( talk) 08:46, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
You are the same person who wants to keep this unreal fact and stop change your site and your IP يوسف عاشق الجبل ( talk) 09:21, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
I am Syrian and from the Alawite sect and I know all the real details about my sect more than anyone even if he claims to be a scholar. Please stop marketing offensive information about my sect through the encyclopedia, especially by one person who changes his IP. يوسف عاشق الجبل ( talk) 11:37, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not for those like you who want to market false information about my sect for political reasons. يوسف عاشق الجبل ( talk) 09:17, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
WHO ARE YOU to tell me what to do and what not to do. You are but an IP. يوسف عاشق الجبل ( talk) 09:23, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
For you 118.222.229.61 : My tribe was Christian and then it became Sunni and then it became Alawi and I am a descendant of the prince of this tribe of the same lineage of an Alawi feudal family. يوسف عاشق الجبل ( talk) 08:15, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
I comment here as 118.222.229.61 has requested a third opinion [24]. First of all, you both (the IP and يوسف عاشق الجبل) need to change behavior. You have both violated WP:3RR and could not be blocked. No, neither the adding or the removal of the debated text was "vandalism", so neither of you had any legitimate reason to edit war as you did. I have requested temporary protection for the article. As for the matter of the dispute, I am inclined to agree with يوسف عاشق الجبل. I see no good reason why this text is WP:DUE here. Yes, it is sourced, but being sourced is not always enough. At the very least, the onus is on the IP to argue for why the text belongs in the article. That has not been done. As for now, I restore the article to have it looked before your edit war. This restoration is not an endorsement of either view, just respecting WP:BRD. Once more, you both need to change both the way you address other users and the way you edit. Jeppiz ( talk) 23:31, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
Thank you @ Jeppiz:: I want to tell the IP (118.222.229.61) that Jeppiz has no preconceived ideas and prejudices against a specific sect. Poverty and bad conditions were present among all residents of Syria in that era, especially among urban dwellers. It is a ridiculous request, for example, to ask a person (whose parents we do not know) to prove that he is a legitimate child of his parents. There are many sources with political malignant purposes that can not be trusted at all. يوسف عاشق الجبل ( talk) 07:39, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
Answer IP, I agree with يوسف عاشق الجبل that the text is potentially offensive. Now, you are right in saying that offensive does not mean we cannot say it (many articles state well-sourced facts that may offend some people). However, if we include something that might be offensive, the very least we would expect is that it is relevant and with strong backing in sources. It is debatable whether one single source from 25 years ago is strong enough, but that's not the main issue. The main issue is why this text is WP:DUE, as I already pointed out. Once again, if you want to include, then the onus is on you to make that argument. Jeppiz ( talk) 17:27, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
The phrase which Daniel Pipes mentioned in his book ( which the IP 118.222.229.61 relies on) is not intended to clarify real information but rather to offend a certain sect. Daniel Pipes is known for his anti-Arab tendencies and he supports Israel, so he has many political ideas he wants to market to the media in order to diminish the value of Alawite minority in Syria because the president of Syria is Alawi and hostile to Israel. The Alawites were in mountainous areas and few of Alawi men worked in cities for Sunni families. Alawites did not even send their underage daughters to schools in the cities, so how would they send their underage daughters to work for Sunni families? Many Alawi women married Sunni men but those women were not mistresses or prostitutes. As Mr @ Jeppiz: pointed out, the text is WP:DUE. يوسف عاشق الجبل ( talk) 08:10, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
I am not even concerned about religions and beliefs, but I would say it was a good move that you locked the article from being edited by some lame users who vandalize edits without having an account !! However, this user 118.222.229.61 who happens to be an anti-alawite is trying to enforce some shitty opinions like himself on readers ! If that is the claim then all Sunnis are Mongolian leftovers as Timur’s army never left any virgin especially in the big cities !! That ip user should be sent in real life to his beloved jihadi boys to be dealt with (like with armed drones) !! Mark Mercer ( talk) 19:21, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
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Hi! there I recently noticed that this article is seem to be adding the vandalized information, such as adding the description of the Alid community in this article, and considering the Alevis and Nusayri Alawites as same as Alids, However, Alids are the descendants of the 4th Caliph Ali ibn Abi Talib and Nusayris and Alevis are the Shia Muslim sects, only their terms are similar to the Alids. 111.88.90.249 ( talk) 18:57, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Alawites are not Shias and never were considered as such by anyone but modern day Wahhabis. Alawites don’t attend Twelver mosques and services, they don’t pray daily, they do drink alcohol, don’t perform Hajj, and their women barely veil. Even Ibn Taymiyyah mentioned that they are not Shias, neither were they ever classified as such by Shia Islamic scholars of the past like Shaykh Tusi. Both Assads - Hafez and Bashar, deported Iranian ulama who sought to make Alawites into Shias. Alawites are completely unrelated and separate religious group. If they are to be considered as a “Shia sect”, then Ahmadis and Nation of Islam are a “Sunni sect”.
What are the scriptures besides the Quran they accept? It's only alluded to in the third paragraph, perhaps we could flesh it out with more detail? 24.44.73.34 ( talk) 19:14, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the response. 24.44.73.34 ( talk) 16:39, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
The Arabic articles that were cited as sources to the alleged "Massacre of the Telal" are dubious. Both sources claim that the alleged massacre was reported in a letter sent to the Ottoman Sultan and claim that the letter is preserved in the National library of Strasbourg. However, both articles do not give any further information about the letter that could help us reach it, not even a title. This fact, combined with the wording of the articles, could help us reach a conclusion that they are nothing but pure propaganda. Steve Hurrington ( talk) 18:27, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
As far as I know Nusayris is not an insult
as the article say and repeat
the name was driven from Ibn Nusayr [25] Carnegie6 ( talk) 01:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
In the article, sentence about Uğur Şahin being an alawite is cited as source of an article; however, source does not specifies, just assumes. Article journalist says He's from Alexandretta an alevi, so his parents must be relocated from Syria 200 hundred years ago this is not a source but an assume. Therefore, whole part of Uğur Şahin have to be deleted or should be cited with a reliable, definitive source. 31.223.43.88 ( talk) 16:13, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Are some users missing that their edits are insert Lebanon twice into the infobox? For areas inhabited by Alawites are uncontestedly in Lebanon, they are already already included in Lebanon. For the parts of the Golan Heights under Israeli control (which both the Alawites of the area and I myself consider Syrian), it is contested between Israel, Lebanon, and Syria. The current version reads as if the Golan Heights are all Lebanese, which nobody claims. This is not an issue of one POV versus another, purely of a factually incorrect infobox. This shouldn't even be an issue, WP:COMPETENCE very much applies. Jeppiz ( talk) 16:13, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
I disagree with @ FunkMonk on his decision to revert the Shrine picture to the Zulfiqar, as the page image. The Zulfiqar is too broad to be used to symbolize Alawites. Here are some examples of articles in the Arabic Wikipedia that use the Zulfiqar:
On the other hand, the shrine is a very typical Alawite Maqam, it is very representative. Not just this particular Shrine, but these kinds of Shrines (or Maqams, or Ziyarahs). There are hundreds of these in the Levant, and this is a very characteristic Alawite Shrine because of the typical white paint and the typical architecture.
One other reason that made me think this picture has great representative value is this summarized quote from Sevan Nisanyan, who is knowledgeable on these matters, from a video:
“ | I didn't know much about the Nusayris until I turned 30. I've traveled extensively in Turkey since a young age, but I was unaware of the Nusayris, especially in the southern region around Antakya, Hatay. In this area, there's a significant population of Arabic-speaking people who identify themselves as Alawites. Their traditions and beliefs are quite distinct from other Alevi communities in Turkey. Interestingly, they have white-painted tombs scattered throughout the mountains, resembling Greek churches. They are often situated in picturesque locations, perched on the mountaintops, hillsides, or even near the entrance of caves. The exteriors of these tombs are painted in a striking white color, similar to the aesthetics of Rum (Greek) churches in Greece. The architectural design includes domes, creating a visual similarity to the small shrines and churches seen in Greek landscapes. These places, unlike typical Alevi practices in other parts of Turkey, involve unique rituals. The term "Nusayri" is used by outsiders; the locals don't appreciate it. There's a debate about the meaning of the term, with some suggesting it originated from an Arab figure in the 12th century. However, it is also considered an insult, meaning "small Christians" or "Christian." The Nusayris have their unique beliefs, and stories suggest that they either converted from Christianity or share similarities with Christians due to historical interactions. | ” |
I would like to have a constructive discussion on this subject that we can learn from each other. Also, I would like to invite @ PaFra and @ Solmissos to the discussion if they have time, due to their expertise on the subject. TheJoyfulTentmaker ( talk) 02:35, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
I removed the use of the word "regime" because it seems loaded. ItsRainingCatsAndDogsAndMen ( talk) 14:30, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
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This topic is extremely incorrect. The Alawites do not believe imam Ali to be an incarnation of god 120.21.186.112 ( talk) 13:54, 29 March 2024 (UTC)