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Berg had a very public life that involved much more than just his assasination. This article needs to be fleshed out with more detail. StudierMalMarburg 21:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Like the entries on David Lane and George Lincoln Rockwell, this was clearly written by somebody who is sympathetic to the white supremacist movement. There's an attempt at non-bias, but the devil is in the details, ie the identification of Berg as a 'Jewish' talk show host, and the mention that Lane is seen by his admirers as a 'hero and prisoner of war'. Hate speech is becoming a real problem on this site.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 170.20.11.116 ( talk) 03:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC).
"During his trial, it was revealed that after he received death threats from The Order, Berg, a proponent of gun control, applied for a handgun permit with Denver Police Chief Ari Zavaras less than a year before his death. Zavaras denied it"
the grammar is a bit extravagant for wiki, is it not? I will not edit as I do not know the facts -- Kvuo 05:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
""Denver talk-show host Alan Berg was Jewish, passionate, highly provocative, and fond of insulting people with whom he disagreed. When Berg began receiving death threats from white supremacists, he went to a local police department to ask for a handgun carry permit. The police chief attempted to talk him out of applying, and finally rejected his application. Shortly thereafter, Berg was assassinated by members of Aryan Nations. [10] No one will ever know whether, had Berg been armed, he might have frightened off the men who came to murder him; what is known is that without a gun, Alan Berg was speedily killed."" ""Footnote 10. Stephen Singular, Talked to Death (N.Y.: Beech Tree Books, 1987), p. 142. The police department in question was in Englewood, a suburb of Denver.""
Oliver Stone's movie Talk Radio (1988) is based on Stephen Singular's book Talked to Death (1987). Yes, Oliver Stone is scarcely more a reliable source than Singular, but what Singular wrote is not a matter of theory, it is a matter of fact about the Alan Berg case: Berg was under death threat, was denied a permit to carry for self-defense, and was murdered by the Bob Mathews gang Bruder Schweigen aka Silent Brotherhood aka The Order who were not hampered by the gun laws. Naaman Brown ( talk) 18:44, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
He went to "Denver's WXYZ" is incorrect. WXYZ is in Detroit. I would change this but, I don't know whether he was in Denver or in Detroit before being hired at KOA.
Who's Ellen Kaplan? She needs explaining. -- Cunningham 09:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
There has never been an Ellen Kaplan who has served as Colorado's Secretary of State. During most of Berg's career in Denver, the office was filled by Mary Estill Buchanan. At the time of his death, the S of S was Natalie Meyer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.88.238.225 ( talk) 04:53, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
The information
from http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0073686/bio ist probably wrong, -- Rosenkohl ( talk) 23:25, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
There is currently a conflict about the inclusion of the Censorship in the US link under "See also".
From the article (which might be lacking, of course) I see no indication that censorship played a role in Berg's life. I think the one case that's cited now as censorship is his own murder, which was indeed partly as a reaction to what Berg said, but still this is not censorship.
According to the article Censorship: "Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication or other information which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by governments, media outlets, authorities or other groups or institutions.[1]"
Censorship is about the suppression of speech, not about revenge for speech. Whereever the is censorship, people are (either by the state or by other bodies) prevented from publishing their opinions. Berg was not prevented, he very forcefully said what he had in mind. That someone murdered him for his opinions is quite a distinct matter.
Of course, one might argue a connection between this act and censorship, but then it should be argued (based on source, for which currently there are none) and not simply sneaked in without explanations as a "see also" link.
Str1977 (talk) 06:51, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
@ Gob Lofa: You deleted a statement in the lead that was clearly referenced in the body of the text, then deleted the reversion when the reference was added to the lead. You made the incomprehensible comment “No, that was a reason given, not necessarily the actual reason”. Since you seem to know the “actual reason”, in contradistinction to the “reason given” by the trial court and was provided in the references, please explicate. Otherwise, your repeated deletions will constitute vandalism. N0TABENE ( talk) 19:15, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
I have Gob Lofa's page on watch given several interactions on British and Irish articles so I saw your warning. Having looked at the material I think he has it right this time. The references do not say Berg was killed simply because he was Jewish. They are clear that he 'baited' the group for their anti-Semitic views and that was the provocation. As much their egos as anything else from the sources. I've made a change which seems consistent with the sources and hopefully that will help. ---- Snowded TALK 09:21, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
I provided sources to support my claim, I am under no obligation to bring "additional sources". We are indeed done here - if you fail to address my argument , I will be restoring this content shortly. You can't stonewall your way to the version you prefer When Other Legends Are Forgotten ( talk) 05:04, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
The motives for Berg’s assassination by members of The Order referenced in the body of the article all mention his being Jewish. Should the lede summary also contain the fact his religion was a motive for his killing? N0TABENE ( talk) 21:58, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Discussion between Snowden and NOTABENE |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
One of the main protagonists (When Other Legends Are Forgotten) here has being blocked as a sock puppet so his contribution def facto cancelled. User:Not 2 Cereus is an SPA account for this RfA. So let's try and move forward. If we look at the sources given we get the following quotes:
The first two make the point that 'baiting' and 'provocation' were the reasons for the assassination. They say he was Jewish, but they do not say that was the reason. The final one says that there was a plan to kill prominent Jews but does not say that Berg was on the list, it just notes that some of those involved in said plan were part of the Berg killing.
So to say that he was killed because he was Jewish is very clearly not supported by the sources. It is a matter of speculation to ask if he pad not been Jewish and had acted in the same way would he still have been killed? The group concerned (per the sources) thought that Jews were descended from Satan so we can assume (although that is OR but probably permissible) that it was at least a part of the motivation.
Given that I have attempted a compromise edit this morning ---- Snowded TALK 06:35, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 11:52, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
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Do you have reliable sources to deem Alan Berg Jewish? Berg said that his father was Jewish, but not his mother. For Jewish orthodoxy, a Jew is basically deemed a Jew because born of a Jewish mother, which Alan Berg was not, according to what Berg said on KOA.
See also NNDB: Jewish Ancestry, a list of non-Jews with Jewish ancestry. http://www.nndb.com/lists/481/000045346/
So the question is, was Berg a proselyte to Judaism or not a Jew at all? Berg did identify with Jewish people, as he presented himself on KOA. ( PeacePeace ( talk) 21:43, 25 April 2018 (UTC))
Current article reads, quote: "The unemployed Berg was courted by both KTOK in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma and Detroit, Michigan."
KTOK is not in Detroit Michigan, nor is it likely the entire city of Detroit was "courting". Either there's a station name missing or there's no point here. Impossible to say which since no reference is given.
Just after that, same section: " "He didn't pick on the poor, the frail, the undefended: He chose Roderick Elliot and Frank "Bud" Farell, who wrote The Death of the White Race and Open Letter to the Gentiles, and other people from the white supremacist groups… the groups who openly espoused hatred of blacks, Jews, leftists, homosexuals, Hispanics, other minorities and religious groups".[1]"
This is a grammatical train wreck apparently copied verbatim from the source with no attempt to rework it into English. Apparently suggesting Alan Berg picked on Roderick Elliot and Frank "Bud" farell [sic] -- lowercase last name -- and then veering off into tangents about what those two had done, followed by an unrelated non sequitur phrase. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.34.131.212 ( talk) 18:38, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Berg had a very public life that involved much more than just his assasination. This article needs to be fleshed out with more detail. StudierMalMarburg 21:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Like the entries on David Lane and George Lincoln Rockwell, this was clearly written by somebody who is sympathetic to the white supremacist movement. There's an attempt at non-bias, but the devil is in the details, ie the identification of Berg as a 'Jewish' talk show host, and the mention that Lane is seen by his admirers as a 'hero and prisoner of war'. Hate speech is becoming a real problem on this site.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 170.20.11.116 ( talk) 03:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC).
"During his trial, it was revealed that after he received death threats from The Order, Berg, a proponent of gun control, applied for a handgun permit with Denver Police Chief Ari Zavaras less than a year before his death. Zavaras denied it"
the grammar is a bit extravagant for wiki, is it not? I will not edit as I do not know the facts -- Kvuo 05:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
""Denver talk-show host Alan Berg was Jewish, passionate, highly provocative, and fond of insulting people with whom he disagreed. When Berg began receiving death threats from white supremacists, he went to a local police department to ask for a handgun carry permit. The police chief attempted to talk him out of applying, and finally rejected his application. Shortly thereafter, Berg was assassinated by members of Aryan Nations. [10] No one will ever know whether, had Berg been armed, he might have frightened off the men who came to murder him; what is known is that without a gun, Alan Berg was speedily killed."" ""Footnote 10. Stephen Singular, Talked to Death (N.Y.: Beech Tree Books, 1987), p. 142. The police department in question was in Englewood, a suburb of Denver.""
Oliver Stone's movie Talk Radio (1988) is based on Stephen Singular's book Talked to Death (1987). Yes, Oliver Stone is scarcely more a reliable source than Singular, but what Singular wrote is not a matter of theory, it is a matter of fact about the Alan Berg case: Berg was under death threat, was denied a permit to carry for self-defense, and was murdered by the Bob Mathews gang Bruder Schweigen aka Silent Brotherhood aka The Order who were not hampered by the gun laws. Naaman Brown ( talk) 18:44, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
He went to "Denver's WXYZ" is incorrect. WXYZ is in Detroit. I would change this but, I don't know whether he was in Denver or in Detroit before being hired at KOA.
Who's Ellen Kaplan? She needs explaining. -- Cunningham 09:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
There has never been an Ellen Kaplan who has served as Colorado's Secretary of State. During most of Berg's career in Denver, the office was filled by Mary Estill Buchanan. At the time of his death, the S of S was Natalie Meyer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.88.238.225 ( talk) 04:53, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
The information
from http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0073686/bio ist probably wrong, -- Rosenkohl ( talk) 23:25, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
There is currently a conflict about the inclusion of the Censorship in the US link under "See also".
From the article (which might be lacking, of course) I see no indication that censorship played a role in Berg's life. I think the one case that's cited now as censorship is his own murder, which was indeed partly as a reaction to what Berg said, but still this is not censorship.
According to the article Censorship: "Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication or other information which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by governments, media outlets, authorities or other groups or institutions.[1]"
Censorship is about the suppression of speech, not about revenge for speech. Whereever the is censorship, people are (either by the state or by other bodies) prevented from publishing their opinions. Berg was not prevented, he very forcefully said what he had in mind. That someone murdered him for his opinions is quite a distinct matter.
Of course, one might argue a connection between this act and censorship, but then it should be argued (based on source, for which currently there are none) and not simply sneaked in without explanations as a "see also" link.
Str1977 (talk) 06:51, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
@ Gob Lofa: You deleted a statement in the lead that was clearly referenced in the body of the text, then deleted the reversion when the reference was added to the lead. You made the incomprehensible comment “No, that was a reason given, not necessarily the actual reason”. Since you seem to know the “actual reason”, in contradistinction to the “reason given” by the trial court and was provided in the references, please explicate. Otherwise, your repeated deletions will constitute vandalism. N0TABENE ( talk) 19:15, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
I have Gob Lofa's page on watch given several interactions on British and Irish articles so I saw your warning. Having looked at the material I think he has it right this time. The references do not say Berg was killed simply because he was Jewish. They are clear that he 'baited' the group for their anti-Semitic views and that was the provocation. As much their egos as anything else from the sources. I've made a change which seems consistent with the sources and hopefully that will help. ---- Snowded TALK 09:21, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
I provided sources to support my claim, I am under no obligation to bring "additional sources". We are indeed done here - if you fail to address my argument , I will be restoring this content shortly. You can't stonewall your way to the version you prefer When Other Legends Are Forgotten ( talk) 05:04, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
The motives for Berg’s assassination by members of The Order referenced in the body of the article all mention his being Jewish. Should the lede summary also contain the fact his religion was a motive for his killing? N0TABENE ( talk) 21:58, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Discussion between Snowden and NOTABENE |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
One of the main protagonists (When Other Legends Are Forgotten) here has being blocked as a sock puppet so his contribution def facto cancelled. User:Not 2 Cereus is an SPA account for this RfA. So let's try and move forward. If we look at the sources given we get the following quotes:
The first two make the point that 'baiting' and 'provocation' were the reasons for the assassination. They say he was Jewish, but they do not say that was the reason. The final one says that there was a plan to kill prominent Jews but does not say that Berg was on the list, it just notes that some of those involved in said plan were part of the Berg killing.
So to say that he was killed because he was Jewish is very clearly not supported by the sources. It is a matter of speculation to ask if he pad not been Jewish and had acted in the same way would he still have been killed? The group concerned (per the sources) thought that Jews were descended from Satan so we can assume (although that is OR but probably permissible) that it was at least a part of the motivation.
Given that I have attempted a compromise edit this morning ---- Snowded TALK 06:35, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 11:52, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
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I have just modified one external link on Alan Berg. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 05:16, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
Do you have reliable sources to deem Alan Berg Jewish? Berg said that his father was Jewish, but not his mother. For Jewish orthodoxy, a Jew is basically deemed a Jew because born of a Jewish mother, which Alan Berg was not, according to what Berg said on KOA.
See also NNDB: Jewish Ancestry, a list of non-Jews with Jewish ancestry. http://www.nndb.com/lists/481/000045346/
So the question is, was Berg a proselyte to Judaism or not a Jew at all? Berg did identify with Jewish people, as he presented himself on KOA. ( PeacePeace ( talk) 21:43, 25 April 2018 (UTC))
Current article reads, quote: "The unemployed Berg was courted by both KTOK in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma and Detroit, Michigan."
KTOK is not in Detroit Michigan, nor is it likely the entire city of Detroit was "courting". Either there's a station name missing or there's no point here. Impossible to say which since no reference is given.
Just after that, same section: " "He didn't pick on the poor, the frail, the undefended: He chose Roderick Elliot and Frank "Bud" Farell, who wrote The Death of the White Race and Open Letter to the Gentiles, and other people from the white supremacist groups… the groups who openly espoused hatred of blacks, Jews, leftists, homosexuals, Hispanics, other minorities and religious groups".[1]"
This is a grammatical train wreck apparently copied verbatim from the source with no attempt to rework it into English. Apparently suggesting Alan Berg picked on Roderick Elliot and Frank "Bud" farell [sic] -- lowercase last name -- and then veering off into tangents about what those two had done, followed by an unrelated non sequitur phrase. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.34.131.212 ( talk) 18:38, 27 April 2019 (UTC)