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All source until 1977 refer to him as being black, then Beresford calls him an Arab. I'm going to remove the modifier for now, somebody please feel free to find new evidence. Sherurcij ( Speaker for the Dead) 01:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Question (which may belong elsewhere but this gives me an opportunity to record additional information which 'needs' to appear in this article based on the answer)[[User_talk:HerbM]:
How do we deal with page numbers in references? Reference #1 (The Story Of Chinese Gordon, digitized at Google http://books.google.com/books?id=vlMDAAAAMAAJ) is 407 pages long and the reference I added is on page 354 -- documenting that Suleiman was executed by Gessi's forces but under the orders of Gordon.
All references to that (first) source are globbed together without page numbers as it now stands.
[Seems to be resolved] [[User_talk:HerbM] This article appears to be a duplicate of Al-Zubayr Rahma. They should be merged. Raoulduke47 10:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand your accusations of "ethnocentrism", nor do I appreciate them much.
In fact it is your reasoning that is a fallacy, one that I have come across too often on wikipedia. There is no reason to think that somehow, the further back you go, the closer you get to the truth. History is a science in progress; this means that our knowledge of historical events increases over time, it doesn't decay as you seem to imply. This is why, if you're interested in the Ancient Roman period, you'll read the works of Ronald Syme rather than those of Livy. As Zubehr lived during the colonial period, one should be especially careful with contemporary sources, as many were written in justfication of colonialism, and are not only ethnocentric but openly racist as well.
Also I disagree that there is a consensus to call him "Sebehr Rahma, the Black Pasha", even in his own time. Like Aldux, I have never seen this form before. The sources I have read call him either "Zubehr"(Churchill, The river war, 1902), Zobeir(Strachey, Eminent victorians, 1918) or "Zebehr"(Archer, The war in Egypt and Soudan, 1887). Raoulduke47 10:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
OK let's do a google search then:
That speaks for itself. Raoulduke47 16:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
All source until 1977 refer to him as being black, then Beresford calls him an Arab. I'm going to remove the modifier for now, somebody please feel free to find new evidence. Sherurcij ( Speaker for the Dead) 01:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Question (which may belong elsewhere but this gives me an opportunity to record additional information which 'needs' to appear in this article based on the answer)[[User_talk:HerbM]:
How do we deal with page numbers in references? Reference #1 (The Story Of Chinese Gordon, digitized at Google http://books.google.com/books?id=vlMDAAAAMAAJ) is 407 pages long and the reference I added is on page 354 -- documenting that Suleiman was executed by Gessi's forces but under the orders of Gordon.
All references to that (first) source are globbed together without page numbers as it now stands.
[Seems to be resolved] [[User_talk:HerbM] This article appears to be a duplicate of Al-Zubayr Rahma. They should be merged. Raoulduke47 10:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand your accusations of "ethnocentrism", nor do I appreciate them much.
In fact it is your reasoning that is a fallacy, one that I have come across too often on wikipedia. There is no reason to think that somehow, the further back you go, the closer you get to the truth. History is a science in progress; this means that our knowledge of historical events increases over time, it doesn't decay as you seem to imply. This is why, if you're interested in the Ancient Roman period, you'll read the works of Ronald Syme rather than those of Livy. As Zubehr lived during the colonial period, one should be especially careful with contemporary sources, as many were written in justfication of colonialism, and are not only ethnocentric but openly racist as well.
Also I disagree that there is a consensus to call him "Sebehr Rahma, the Black Pasha", even in his own time. Like Aldux, I have never seen this form before. The sources I have read call him either "Zubehr"(Churchill, The river war, 1902), Zobeir(Strachey, Eminent victorians, 1918) or "Zebehr"(Archer, The war in Egypt and Soudan, 1887). Raoulduke47 10:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
OK let's do a google search then:
That speaks for itself. Raoulduke47 16:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)