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Do you think works of Robert Morey will really do it for this article? Heck no, so let's avoid that. Refutation is here: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html
As for the 'satanic verses', someone delete that part. refutation: http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/satanic_verses.htm this satanic verses doesnt even make any sence!!!!
The link to the following highly colored Islamist site has been suppressed by a recent visitor: Those Are The High Flying Claims
Is there really any need to recount the Satanic Verses episode in full in each of these three goddess articles, when it has its own article? And can we pleeease have a source for the claim that Uzza was supposed to be a daughter of Hubal? - 208.147.76.23 06:18, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In response to a request from User:Mustafaa posted at my Userpage: "You state that Uzza, al-Lat, and Manat were believed to be daughters of Hubal. The source for that claim, however, is unclear; the Kitab al-Asnam, which you link to, makes no such claim, and neither does Ibn Ishaq in the Satanic Verses episode. Would you care to provide a suitable source?" (Mustafaa 23:01, 11 Feb 2005)
I have reviewed the entry and find that passages based on well-known Islamic sources have been deleted from the entry since I last looked at it.
In response to Mustafaa's request, I have disambiguated references to people, added links, attributed statements in the new manner recommended for Wikipedia and added to References.
I have removed here the following text in the hopes that it can be brought up to standards if it is to be re-edited into the article:
I am not convinced that Finegan would recognize these statements; a quote might help.
I have removed for Discussion the following assertion: "Some Western scholars like John Burton also question its authenticity" is reference to the notorious delted suras. Is this in reference to Burton's The Collection Of The Qur'an, 1977? Does this accurately reflect what Burton has said of Uzza?
I expect that User:Mustafaa will have many references to add himself. And a number of supported statements to round out a neutral and balanced entry. Much more apropos ones, too, than my ignorant efforts. An entry for Kitab al-Asnam would be very welcome, since he seems thoroughly familiar with it. -- Wetman 01:20, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Frankly— and utterly impersonally— I would tend to distrust any editor who makes covert revisions to quoted text as Mustafaa has now "corrected" the quote of al-Tawil in the entry. What else might be subverted by someone operating at such a cultural level? Certainly, the following text has now been suppressed by Mustafaa: "Whether these daughters of Hubal actually preceded him, and were reimagined as daughters when Hubal came to prominence at Mecca with the tribe of the Quraysh who were under Hubal's protection until Mohammed converted them, cannot be determined." The kind of thought that's quite commonplace in Greek mythology is a thought the reader is not to be permitted under Mustafaa's regime. Why are these the "daughters" of Hubal at Mecca, when Uzza appears without Hubal at Petra? Too subtle a question for Wikipedians? Or simply too subtle for one censor? But I ask you all: could such a logical possibility have been more modestly presented? Mustafaa tells us at the same time what pagan Arabians believed: "the pagan Arabs believed her to be one of Allah's three daughters"— quite a daring assumption under the circumstances, wouldn't you all agree?. Note that the former text refers only to outward signs of cult, never to what anyone might have believed. Don't let the objections be falsely characterized as a "personal attack": these are objections to actions that would apply to anyone, without exception. -- Wetman 02:29, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
...easily overlooked apparently, but now actually incorporated into the article, with the Wikipedia reader in mind. -- Wetman 21:50, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Wetman makes a serious accusation in accusing me of covert revisions to quoted text - and a false one. What I did was remove the irrelevant second half of the quote, which describes Hubal but not Uzza: "By the end of that war, the victorious Abu Sufyan cried: "O Hubal be exalted, O Hubal be exalted." The Prophet answered him: "God is the highest and the most exalted."" (Tawil 1993)".
He follows this misrepresentation up with another one: "Mustafaa tells us at the same time what pagan Arabians believed". Ny exact words were "According to Ibn al Kalbi's' early 9th century Kitab al-Asnam, the "Book of Idols", the pagan Arabs believed her to be one of Allah's three daughters", and Ibn al-Kalbi's exact words were "These were also called "the Daughters of Allah[17]." I do not characterize Wetman's objections as a mere "personal attack", but as either an exceedingly careless mistake or a dishonorable lie; the same, incidentally, applies to his inexplicable habit of confusing Hubal with Allah. - Mustafaa 18:12, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
"Whether these daughters of Hubal actually preceded him, and were reimagined as daughters when Hubal came to prominence at Mecca with the tribe of the Quraysh who were under Hubal's protection until Mohammed converted them, cannot be determined." Despite my pointing it out to him previously, Wetman seems to remain unaware of the obvious problem with this text: it is based on the false premise that these were claimed to be daughters of Hubal, rather than (as Ibn al-Kalbi and Ibn Ishaq both claim) daughters of Allah. - Mustafaa 18:22, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Wetman feels that the following speculation adds something to the article:
I, on the other hand, find it difficult to imagine that the undocumented speculations of inexpert "Western readers" are of any interest to an encyclopedia. If a Western scholar in this field has suggested the theory that they were daughters of Hubal, then he deserves due credit for the suggestion, and the least we can do is mention his name. If, on the other hand, this is merely Wetman's original speculation, then he should really publish it in a peer-reviewed journal first. - Mustafaa 18:34, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Whatever. Despite my best efforts to ensure that the other side is represented, Wetman has still provided not so much as a single piece of evidence connecting Allah - or the three goddesses that the pagans called his daughters - to Hubal, a point directly contradicted by the Kitab al-Asnam (p. 24): I can only conclude that none exists. - Mustafaa 22:10, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Incidentally, pre-Islamic references to Allah are not anachronistic in a pagan context; the name is attested in Nabataean and Safaitic inscriptions [1]. - Mustafaa 22:34, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
What does the prefixed 3 in "3ZY" and "3Uzza" indicate? — Charles P. (Mirv) 17:47, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
All Wikipedia Articles must have a NPOV.
The pagan gods of Arabia [53.19-24]
[53.19] (Among the idols) have you considered allat and al'uzza,
[53.20] and, another, the third manat?
[53.21] What, have you males, and He females!
[53.22] That is indeed an unjust division.
[53.23] They are but names, named by you and your fathers. Allah has not sent
down any authority for them. They follow conjecture and their soul's desire, even
though the guidance of their Lord has come to them.
[53.24] Is the human to have whatever he fancies?
See! Those are the Real Verses! This ARticle should be deleted for not complying with NPOV! --
Obaidz96 (
talk •
contribs •
count) 01:15, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Cyberbot II has detected that page contains external links that have either been globally or locally blacklisted. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed, or are highly innappropriate for Wikipedia. This, however, doesn't necessarily mean it's spam, or not a good link. If the link is a good link, you may wish to request whitelisting by going to the request page for whitelisting. If you feel the link being caught by the blacklist is a false positive, or no longer needed on the blacklist, you may request the regex be removed or altered at the blacklist request page. If the link is blacklisted globally and you feel the above applies you may request to whitelist it using the before mentioned request page, or request it's removal, or alteration, at the request page on meta. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. The whitelisting process can take its time so once a request has been filled out, you may set the invisible parameter on the tag to true. Please be aware that the bot will replace removed tags, and will remove misplaced tags regularly.
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Have added brief reference to Susan Krone's proposal of the fusion of the identities of Al-Lat and Al-'Uzza, and its citation elsewhere. Cpsoper ( talk) 00:41, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
I've seen the name "al-‘Uzzá" written with an acute accent elsewhere too; I was wondering what the reason is for using an acute rather than a macron ("al-‘Uzzā"). This looks odd when we mention "al-Manāt" in the same sentence, but perhaps there's a reason I don't know about (i.e. maybe the acute indicates something other than/in addition to vowel length). Thanks in advance! Q·L· 1968 ☿ 17:31, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
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_________________________________________
Al Uzza as an angel:
According to Isaac of Antioch, the pagan Arabs worshiped the Venus Star under the title Al‘Uzza “The Strong (Female)” and Syrian women ascended the roof tops to pray to the star to make them beautiful.
Grintz suggested that the Aza’el/Azazel or
Uza of 1Enoch 8:1
is none other than the goddess Al‘Uzza.
Indeed, Enoch tells that Aza’el taught men to make among
other things bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of anti- mony, and the beautifying of eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all coloring tinctures.
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Are the pre Islamic Goddess and the Enochian Uzza, actually the same? (The Enochian Uzza exists in Islam in relation to Harut and Marut as well, but I doubt that they are all the same)-- VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 23:09, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
This section, especially the one about "the angel", seems not to be about the Arabian goddess. The source referred to (Davidson) talks about the angel Uzza, which is related to a range of angels known from Enochian literature, such as Aza, Azazel, Shemyaza, and some of these angels are also related to Samael (because "rebellious angels are sometimes merged with other ones). But it is unlikely this is related to the Arabian goddess. There further seems to be no source supporting that the deity Uzza., is the same as the fallen angel, or that they influenced each other. If there is some evidence, that Jewish angels influenced the main deities of pre-Islamic Arabian pantheon it should be cited well. Otherwise, I would actually tend to remove theis sections, because the name seems to be the only thing they share. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 14:05, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Al-Uzza article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
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Do you think works of Robert Morey will really do it for this article? Heck no, so let's avoid that. Refutation is here: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html
As for the 'satanic verses', someone delete that part. refutation: http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/satanic_verses.htm this satanic verses doesnt even make any sence!!!!
The link to the following highly colored Islamist site has been suppressed by a recent visitor: Those Are The High Flying Claims
Is there really any need to recount the Satanic Verses episode in full in each of these three goddess articles, when it has its own article? And can we pleeease have a source for the claim that Uzza was supposed to be a daughter of Hubal? - 208.147.76.23 06:18, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In response to a request from User:Mustafaa posted at my Userpage: "You state that Uzza, al-Lat, and Manat were believed to be daughters of Hubal. The source for that claim, however, is unclear; the Kitab al-Asnam, which you link to, makes no such claim, and neither does Ibn Ishaq in the Satanic Verses episode. Would you care to provide a suitable source?" (Mustafaa 23:01, 11 Feb 2005)
I have reviewed the entry and find that passages based on well-known Islamic sources have been deleted from the entry since I last looked at it.
In response to Mustafaa's request, I have disambiguated references to people, added links, attributed statements in the new manner recommended for Wikipedia and added to References.
I have removed here the following text in the hopes that it can be brought up to standards if it is to be re-edited into the article:
I am not convinced that Finegan would recognize these statements; a quote might help.
I have removed for Discussion the following assertion: "Some Western scholars like John Burton also question its authenticity" is reference to the notorious delted suras. Is this in reference to Burton's The Collection Of The Qur'an, 1977? Does this accurately reflect what Burton has said of Uzza?
I expect that User:Mustafaa will have many references to add himself. And a number of supported statements to round out a neutral and balanced entry. Much more apropos ones, too, than my ignorant efforts. An entry for Kitab al-Asnam would be very welcome, since he seems thoroughly familiar with it. -- Wetman 01:20, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Frankly— and utterly impersonally— I would tend to distrust any editor who makes covert revisions to quoted text as Mustafaa has now "corrected" the quote of al-Tawil in the entry. What else might be subverted by someone operating at such a cultural level? Certainly, the following text has now been suppressed by Mustafaa: "Whether these daughters of Hubal actually preceded him, and were reimagined as daughters when Hubal came to prominence at Mecca with the tribe of the Quraysh who were under Hubal's protection until Mohammed converted them, cannot be determined." The kind of thought that's quite commonplace in Greek mythology is a thought the reader is not to be permitted under Mustafaa's regime. Why are these the "daughters" of Hubal at Mecca, when Uzza appears without Hubal at Petra? Too subtle a question for Wikipedians? Or simply too subtle for one censor? But I ask you all: could such a logical possibility have been more modestly presented? Mustafaa tells us at the same time what pagan Arabians believed: "the pagan Arabs believed her to be one of Allah's three daughters"— quite a daring assumption under the circumstances, wouldn't you all agree?. Note that the former text refers only to outward signs of cult, never to what anyone might have believed. Don't let the objections be falsely characterized as a "personal attack": these are objections to actions that would apply to anyone, without exception. -- Wetman 02:29, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
...easily overlooked apparently, but now actually incorporated into the article, with the Wikipedia reader in mind. -- Wetman 21:50, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Wetman makes a serious accusation in accusing me of covert revisions to quoted text - and a false one. What I did was remove the irrelevant second half of the quote, which describes Hubal but not Uzza: "By the end of that war, the victorious Abu Sufyan cried: "O Hubal be exalted, O Hubal be exalted." The Prophet answered him: "God is the highest and the most exalted."" (Tawil 1993)".
He follows this misrepresentation up with another one: "Mustafaa tells us at the same time what pagan Arabians believed". Ny exact words were "According to Ibn al Kalbi's' early 9th century Kitab al-Asnam, the "Book of Idols", the pagan Arabs believed her to be one of Allah's three daughters", and Ibn al-Kalbi's exact words were "These were also called "the Daughters of Allah[17]." I do not characterize Wetman's objections as a mere "personal attack", but as either an exceedingly careless mistake or a dishonorable lie; the same, incidentally, applies to his inexplicable habit of confusing Hubal with Allah. - Mustafaa 18:12, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
"Whether these daughters of Hubal actually preceded him, and were reimagined as daughters when Hubal came to prominence at Mecca with the tribe of the Quraysh who were under Hubal's protection until Mohammed converted them, cannot be determined." Despite my pointing it out to him previously, Wetman seems to remain unaware of the obvious problem with this text: it is based on the false premise that these were claimed to be daughters of Hubal, rather than (as Ibn al-Kalbi and Ibn Ishaq both claim) daughters of Allah. - Mustafaa 18:22, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Wetman feels that the following speculation adds something to the article:
I, on the other hand, find it difficult to imagine that the undocumented speculations of inexpert "Western readers" are of any interest to an encyclopedia. If a Western scholar in this field has suggested the theory that they were daughters of Hubal, then he deserves due credit for the suggestion, and the least we can do is mention his name. If, on the other hand, this is merely Wetman's original speculation, then he should really publish it in a peer-reviewed journal first. - Mustafaa 18:34, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Whatever. Despite my best efforts to ensure that the other side is represented, Wetman has still provided not so much as a single piece of evidence connecting Allah - or the three goddesses that the pagans called his daughters - to Hubal, a point directly contradicted by the Kitab al-Asnam (p. 24): I can only conclude that none exists. - Mustafaa 22:10, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Incidentally, pre-Islamic references to Allah are not anachronistic in a pagan context; the name is attested in Nabataean and Safaitic inscriptions [1]. - Mustafaa 22:34, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
What does the prefixed 3 in "3ZY" and "3Uzza" indicate? — Charles P. (Mirv) 17:47, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
All Wikipedia Articles must have a NPOV.
The pagan gods of Arabia [53.19-24]
[53.19] (Among the idols) have you considered allat and al'uzza,
[53.20] and, another, the third manat?
[53.21] What, have you males, and He females!
[53.22] That is indeed an unjust division.
[53.23] They are but names, named by you and your fathers. Allah has not sent
down any authority for them. They follow conjecture and their soul's desire, even
though the guidance of their Lord has come to them.
[53.24] Is the human to have whatever he fancies?
See! Those are the Real Verses! This ARticle should be deleted for not complying with NPOV! --
Obaidz96 (
talk •
contribs •
count) 01:15, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Cyberbot II has detected that page contains external links that have either been globally or locally blacklisted. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed, or are highly innappropriate for Wikipedia. This, however, doesn't necessarily mean it's spam, or not a good link. If the link is a good link, you may wish to request whitelisting by going to the request page for whitelisting. If you feel the link being caught by the blacklist is a false positive, or no longer needed on the blacklist, you may request the regex be removed or altered at the blacklist request page. If the link is blacklisted globally and you feel the above applies you may request to whitelist it using the before mentioned request page, or request it's removal, or alteration, at the request page on meta. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. The whitelisting process can take its time so once a request has been filled out, you may set the invisible parameter on the tag to true. Please be aware that the bot will replace removed tags, and will remove misplaced tags regularly.
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Have added brief reference to Susan Krone's proposal of the fusion of the identities of Al-Lat and Al-'Uzza, and its citation elsewhere. Cpsoper ( talk) 00:41, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
I've seen the name "al-‘Uzzá" written with an acute accent elsewhere too; I was wondering what the reason is for using an acute rather than a macron ("al-‘Uzzā"). This looks odd when we mention "al-Manāt" in the same sentence, but perhaps there's a reason I don't know about (i.e. maybe the acute indicates something other than/in addition to vowel length). Thanks in advance! Q·L· 1968 ☿ 17:31, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
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_________________________________________
Al Uzza as an angel:
According to Isaac of Antioch, the pagan Arabs worshiped the Venus Star under the title Al‘Uzza “The Strong (Female)” and Syrian women ascended the roof tops to pray to the star to make them beautiful.
Grintz suggested that the Aza’el/Azazel or
Uza of 1Enoch 8:1
is none other than the goddess Al‘Uzza.
Indeed, Enoch tells that Aza’el taught men to make among
other things bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of anti- mony, and the beautifying of eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all coloring tinctures.
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Al-‘Uzzá. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Are the pre Islamic Goddess and the Enochian Uzza, actually the same? (The Enochian Uzza exists in Islam in relation to Harut and Marut as well, but I doubt that they are all the same)-- VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 23:09, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
This section, especially the one about "the angel", seems not to be about the Arabian goddess. The source referred to (Davidson) talks about the angel Uzza, which is related to a range of angels known from Enochian literature, such as Aza, Azazel, Shemyaza, and some of these angels are also related to Samael (because "rebellious angels are sometimes merged with other ones). But it is unlikely this is related to the Arabian goddess. There further seems to be no source supporting that the deity Uzza., is the same as the fallen angel, or that they influenced each other. If there is some evidence, that Jewish angels influenced the main deities of pre-Islamic Arabian pantheon it should be cited well. Otherwise, I would actually tend to remove theis sections, because the name seems to be the only thing they share. VenusFeuerFalle ( talk) 14:05, 15 August 2022 (UTC)