![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Can anyone answer this question: do Holocaust deniers also deny the existence of this program? -- Apeloverage ( talk) 02:27, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Dear all, In my humble opinion this article does a nice try to be as factual as possible and give references at important issues. Even in the section which neutral point of view is disputed (Action T4 and euthanasia). I would argue that there are several clear references in this article showing that indeed the Action T4 program has been referred to as an "euthanasia program", but that the concept of Nazi Germany euthanasia is different from the modern concept of euthanasia (references 63, 65, and 66). Is the neutrality of this section still disputed? LennartVerhagen ( talk) 20:06, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Of course there are sources, even "reliable" sources according to Wikipedia policies, like for example: Alexander Leo, Medical science under dictatorship, New England Journal of Medicine, 1949, No.241, pages 39-47, which clearly state that Aktion T4 was euthanasia and any euthanasia is not unlike Aktion T4. Therefore sources, and even "reliable" sources according to Wikipedia policies, but even though censored sources, because:
For details, see below ...
Extended content
|
---|
I just reverted a significant modification of the T4 and euthanasia section. There are a few issues: the first is the grammar and wording, which seems awkward in places, although admittedly can be fixed, the second is the lax citation style (citing a BMJ volume in bulk, for example), which again could be fixed with some clarification. The big issue to me is whether the addition meets neutral point of view; it seems to be slanted in the direction of paralleling modern right to die advocates with the T4 program. Thoughts? -- TeaDrinker ( talk) 02:11, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
(moving left) Do not switch IPs to avoid your block It will result in longer blocks, article protection, or other more drastic measures. Please do not edit again for 24 hours, the duration of your block, from any IP address or username, except to edit your talk page. I suppose it is my view, my opinion if you will, that your edits are a violation of the neutral point of view policy. However it is your opinion that it is not. I ask you to answer that (I'll post this to your talk page, so you can answer). The edits seem to be trying to make the case that modern right to die movements are similar in structure and motive to the T4 program; can you find notable authors who share this view? Are they answered? What is the most common view of the professional ethicists debating this? To take one side, or disproportionately discuss one side, or to advocate at all are all prohibited under the neutral point of view policy, no matter how compelling you think the arguments are. To make the argument yourself is original research no matter how strong you think the argument. I would also ask that you track down the full citation for each claim; a citation to "Basic Books" (a large publishing house) or a volume of the BMJ is not enough information to locate and verify the information. Hope this helps, -- TeaDrinker ( talk) 02:55, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Against selective discrimination here
(moving back left) Just to be clear, although I am an admin, I am taking part in this discussion as a user. Since I am involved in the content dispute, I will generally try and steer clear of admin actions related to this article. That said, I do think your editing is bordering on disruptive. Please do not add the material back without consensus here (meaning, general agreement on the appropriateness of the edits). Let's start with the version before you started making edits? Is your issue with that version that it is biased in some way, or just that it does not make the claim that T4 is the same as modern euthanasia laws? Thanks for going through the process, -- TeaDrinker ( talk) 18:47, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Current Version of the Article is propaganda pro euthanasia
Crackpot theories reviewHi, Crackpot (for this is the username you seem to prefer), hope you are having a good weekend. To answer your points above quickly:
(moving back left) Let me note that you have no reason to repeat yourself. Constant repetation is not part of a functioning conversation and can be of-putting. If I can summarize, you don't think Wikipedia should report on the views of the authors cited because you don't think they understand the issue. You think they have mistaken views on the facts of modern euthanasia. Is this correct? (You need not conclude with repetition of your views on Euthanasia, you have made them abundantly clear.) Thanks, -- TeaDrinker ( talk) 19:30, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
propaganda pro euthanasia = crime apology
|
There seems to be some confusion on talk page etiquette and guidelines. It may be overly formal, but there are specific guidelines in place to make talk pages readable and facilitate conversation. Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines covers basic etiquette, Wikipedia:Talk page covers formatting issues. Archiving is done for the convenience of other editors when a page becomes lengthy, and the talk page archives are there for everyone to read. The archived discussions were all old and inactive, and it is standard procedure to archive talk pages when they become too long. I'm going to suggest, since it seems to have become a problem, we follow these guidelines as much as possible. -- TeaDrinker ( talk) 18:53, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
I find this paragraph extremely confusing:
Action T4 ( German: Aktion T4) was a program, also called Euthanasia Program, in Nazi Germany spanning October 1939 until August 1941, during which physicians killed 70,273 people [1] specified in Hitler's secret memo of September 1, 1939 as suffering patients "judged incurably sick, by critical medical examination," [2] but described in a denunciation of the program by Cardinal Galen as long-term inmates of mental asylums "who may appear incurable." [3] The Nuremberg Trials found evidence that German physicians continued the extermination of patients after October 1941 and evidence that about 275,000 people were killed under T4 [4]. |
"70,273 people" killed during T4? Or "about 275,000" killed under T4? Which is it? The German Wikipedia article says, more than 100,000. I would strongly encourage editors working on this article to pay close attention to de:Aktion T4, as that article's editors have a good reputation and the article is closely watched.-- Goodmorningworld ( talk) 16:34, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I am additing the NPOV tag on the Euthanasia section. One user has been repeatedly deleting sourced material which does not comport with his view that T4 is unrelated to euthanasia. Certainly, there is sourced material which says calling the program euthanasia is a euphemism, but there is also reliable sourced material which notes that the program developed out of the euthanasia movement and, even after news of atrocities, had sympathy within the Anglo-American movement. Simply deleting sourced material with which you disagree and presenting one POV as if it were the only view is a blatant violation of NPOV. The section, with multiple cummulative quotes and a quote box, bolstering the false impression of the view as undisputed fact, also gives undue weight to the idea that T4 and euthansia are so divorced. I think the tags should remain until balance is restored. Mamalujo ( talk) 19:39, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Can someone count how many times the word "Catholic" is written in this article and then perhaps clean it up? Lot's of catholic apologist propaganda! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.241.75.95 ( talk) 18:10, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
14 times. I think people deemed to be suffering from mental illness are mentioned about four times. FiachraByrne ( talk) 23:08, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
Hi,
The article currently states
A few weeks after the pastoral letter was read out [which happened in July, acc. to the article (Yaan)], the Catholic Bishop of Münster in Westphalia, Clemens August Graf von Galen, publicly denounced the T4 program in a sermon, and telegrammed his text to Hitler, calling on "the Führer to defend the people against the Gestapo". "It is a terrible, unjust and catastrophic thing when man opposes his will to the will of God," Galen said. "We are talking about men and women, our compatriots, our brothers and sisters. Poor unproductive people if you wish, but does this mean that they have lost their right to live?"[59] Robert Lifton says of this sermon: "This powerful, populist sermon was immediately reproduced and distributed throughout Germany — indeed, it was dropped among German troops by British Royal Air Force pilots. Galen's sermon probably had a greater impact than any other statement in consolidating anti-'euthanasia' sentiment."[60] Another Bishop, Franz Bornewasser of Trier, also sent protests to Hitler, though not in public. In August Galen was even more outspoken, broadening his attack to include the Nazi persecution of religious orders and the closing of Catholic institutions. He attributed the heavy allied bombing of Westphalian towns to the wrath of God against Germany for breaking His laws.
my questions are:
Did Galen really denounce the euthanasia program in two separate sermons, or are the two mentioned sermons one and the same? and
In which sermon did Galen attribute "the heavy allied bombing of Westphalian towns to the wrath of God against Germany for breaking His laws".? I couldn't really find it in this one, except some sentences towards the ending which more or less predict punishment for those "who do not want what god wants".
Yaan ( talk) 20:02, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
There's a new navbox available, provided by the {{ Euthanasia}} template. What relation "Action T4" bears do modern day usage of the term "euthanasia" is of course a hotly debated topic, and I don't mean to state anything one way or the other. What do editors here feel, would it be appropriate to include that navbox in this article? Gabbe ( talk) 09:19, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
There is a problem with circular references here, to and from the lethal injection article. While it is obvious that the Nazis did not use the modern U.S. lethal injection protocol, WP does not say what drugs or methods they used. These facts are probably buried in the transcripts of the Doctors' Trial, but might also be in published books. I don't have access to a good research library, but some WP contributors do. Perhaps they could help. Donfbreed ( talk) 22:37, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
I removed the quote on Alexander's discussion of euthanasia and Action T4 as follows:
Similar, I've removed the reference to Alexander in:
The source for the quote is Alexander Leo, Medical Science Under Dictatorship, The New England Journal of Medicine, 1949, No.241, pages 39-47.
I then realised that there have been heated debates on this topic, so my apologies upfront. However, in reading the Alexander paper, the quote being used above was used to describe the preceding paragraph in his work, which was a description of what was happening in Germany in regard to Action T4. Alexander was effectively saying "this quote shows what the actual practice was in Germany" rather than "Action T4 is an example of the actual practice of euthanasia". - Bilby ( talk) 05:32, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Maybe a general reminder to all involved: This is an article about T4 and it is not about what does or does not constitute Euthanasia and what the term Euthanasia currently does or does not mean in the English speaking world.-- Kmhkmh ( talk) 05:53, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
TickleMeister: one must refer to the context, to find what Alexander is meaning. When he says "Here one sees what 'euthanasia' means in actual practice" he is not quoting euthanasia to differentiate this "nazi" euthanasia from a "good" euthanasia. When he quotes euthanasia is not because it would be a "nazi" euthanasia instead of a "good" euthanasia. There is not any proof that Alexander make any distinction between a "nazi" euthanasia and another sort of euthanasia. Instead reading the text one find evidence that for this author euthanasia is alwways euthanasia and a danger thing. In this section it was already quoted another parts of Alexander's text which should be useful to see this point:
... From the attitude of easing patients with chronic diseases away from the doors of the best types of treatment facilities available to the actual dispatching of such patients to killing centers is a long but nevertheless logical step ... To be sure, American physicians are still far from the point of thinking of killing centers, but they have arrived at a danger point in thinking, at which likelihood of full rehabilitation is considered a factor that should determine the amount of time, effort and cost to be devoted to a particular type of patient on the part of the social body upon which this decision rests. At this point Americans should remember that the enormity of a euthanasia movement is present in their own midst.
— Alexander Leo, Medical Science Under Dictatorship, The New England Journal of Medicine, 1949, No.241, pages 39-47
-- ClaudioSantos ( talk) 13:51, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
Consensus discussion have a particular form: editors try to persuade others, using reasons based in policy, sources, and common sense. The goal of a consensus discussion is to reach an agreement about article content, one which may not satisfy anyone completely but which all editors involved recognize as a reasonable exposition of the topic.
... If reliable references cannot be found to explain the apparent discrepancy, editors should resist the temptation to add their own explanation ...
An unpublished synthesis or analysis should not be presented for the readers' "benefit". Let the readers draw their own conclusions after seeing related facts in juxtaposition.
Wikipedia:These_are_not_original_research#Compiling_facts_and_information
I have removed the final sentence of that section, as the full quotation from Alexander is already given. The article is ultimately about Action T4, not about the significance of Action T4 to arguments about euthanasia, nor about the opinions of one commentator. Xanthoxyl < 12:01, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Can anyone answer this question: do Holocaust deniers also deny the existence of this program? -- Apeloverage ( talk) 02:27, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Dear all, In my humble opinion this article does a nice try to be as factual as possible and give references at important issues. Even in the section which neutral point of view is disputed (Action T4 and euthanasia). I would argue that there are several clear references in this article showing that indeed the Action T4 program has been referred to as an "euthanasia program", but that the concept of Nazi Germany euthanasia is different from the modern concept of euthanasia (references 63, 65, and 66). Is the neutrality of this section still disputed? LennartVerhagen ( talk) 20:06, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Of course there are sources, even "reliable" sources according to Wikipedia policies, like for example: Alexander Leo, Medical science under dictatorship, New England Journal of Medicine, 1949, No.241, pages 39-47, which clearly state that Aktion T4 was euthanasia and any euthanasia is not unlike Aktion T4. Therefore sources, and even "reliable" sources according to Wikipedia policies, but even though censored sources, because:
For details, see below ...
Extended content
|
---|
I just reverted a significant modification of the T4 and euthanasia section. There are a few issues: the first is the grammar and wording, which seems awkward in places, although admittedly can be fixed, the second is the lax citation style (citing a BMJ volume in bulk, for example), which again could be fixed with some clarification. The big issue to me is whether the addition meets neutral point of view; it seems to be slanted in the direction of paralleling modern right to die advocates with the T4 program. Thoughts? -- TeaDrinker ( talk) 02:11, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
(moving left) Do not switch IPs to avoid your block It will result in longer blocks, article protection, or other more drastic measures. Please do not edit again for 24 hours, the duration of your block, from any IP address or username, except to edit your talk page. I suppose it is my view, my opinion if you will, that your edits are a violation of the neutral point of view policy. However it is your opinion that it is not. I ask you to answer that (I'll post this to your talk page, so you can answer). The edits seem to be trying to make the case that modern right to die movements are similar in structure and motive to the T4 program; can you find notable authors who share this view? Are they answered? What is the most common view of the professional ethicists debating this? To take one side, or disproportionately discuss one side, or to advocate at all are all prohibited under the neutral point of view policy, no matter how compelling you think the arguments are. To make the argument yourself is original research no matter how strong you think the argument. I would also ask that you track down the full citation for each claim; a citation to "Basic Books" (a large publishing house) or a volume of the BMJ is not enough information to locate and verify the information. Hope this helps, -- TeaDrinker ( talk) 02:55, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Against selective discrimination here
(moving back left) Just to be clear, although I am an admin, I am taking part in this discussion as a user. Since I am involved in the content dispute, I will generally try and steer clear of admin actions related to this article. That said, I do think your editing is bordering on disruptive. Please do not add the material back without consensus here (meaning, general agreement on the appropriateness of the edits). Let's start with the version before you started making edits? Is your issue with that version that it is biased in some way, or just that it does not make the claim that T4 is the same as modern euthanasia laws? Thanks for going through the process, -- TeaDrinker ( talk) 18:47, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Current Version of the Article is propaganda pro euthanasia
Crackpot theories reviewHi, Crackpot (for this is the username you seem to prefer), hope you are having a good weekend. To answer your points above quickly:
(moving back left) Let me note that you have no reason to repeat yourself. Constant repetation is not part of a functioning conversation and can be of-putting. If I can summarize, you don't think Wikipedia should report on the views of the authors cited because you don't think they understand the issue. You think they have mistaken views on the facts of modern euthanasia. Is this correct? (You need not conclude with repetition of your views on Euthanasia, you have made them abundantly clear.) Thanks, -- TeaDrinker ( talk) 19:30, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
propaganda pro euthanasia = crime apology
|
There seems to be some confusion on talk page etiquette and guidelines. It may be overly formal, but there are specific guidelines in place to make talk pages readable and facilitate conversation. Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines covers basic etiquette, Wikipedia:Talk page covers formatting issues. Archiving is done for the convenience of other editors when a page becomes lengthy, and the talk page archives are there for everyone to read. The archived discussions were all old and inactive, and it is standard procedure to archive talk pages when they become too long. I'm going to suggest, since it seems to have become a problem, we follow these guidelines as much as possible. -- TeaDrinker ( talk) 18:53, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
I find this paragraph extremely confusing:
Action T4 ( German: Aktion T4) was a program, also called Euthanasia Program, in Nazi Germany spanning October 1939 until August 1941, during which physicians killed 70,273 people [1] specified in Hitler's secret memo of September 1, 1939 as suffering patients "judged incurably sick, by critical medical examination," [2] but described in a denunciation of the program by Cardinal Galen as long-term inmates of mental asylums "who may appear incurable." [3] The Nuremberg Trials found evidence that German physicians continued the extermination of patients after October 1941 and evidence that about 275,000 people were killed under T4 [4]. |
"70,273 people" killed during T4? Or "about 275,000" killed under T4? Which is it? The German Wikipedia article says, more than 100,000. I would strongly encourage editors working on this article to pay close attention to de:Aktion T4, as that article's editors have a good reputation and the article is closely watched.-- Goodmorningworld ( talk) 16:34, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I am additing the NPOV tag on the Euthanasia section. One user has been repeatedly deleting sourced material which does not comport with his view that T4 is unrelated to euthanasia. Certainly, there is sourced material which says calling the program euthanasia is a euphemism, but there is also reliable sourced material which notes that the program developed out of the euthanasia movement and, even after news of atrocities, had sympathy within the Anglo-American movement. Simply deleting sourced material with which you disagree and presenting one POV as if it were the only view is a blatant violation of NPOV. The section, with multiple cummulative quotes and a quote box, bolstering the false impression of the view as undisputed fact, also gives undue weight to the idea that T4 and euthansia are so divorced. I think the tags should remain until balance is restored. Mamalujo ( talk) 19:39, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Can someone count how many times the word "Catholic" is written in this article and then perhaps clean it up? Lot's of catholic apologist propaganda! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.241.75.95 ( talk) 18:10, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
14 times. I think people deemed to be suffering from mental illness are mentioned about four times. FiachraByrne ( talk) 23:08, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
Hi,
The article currently states
A few weeks after the pastoral letter was read out [which happened in July, acc. to the article (Yaan)], the Catholic Bishop of Münster in Westphalia, Clemens August Graf von Galen, publicly denounced the T4 program in a sermon, and telegrammed his text to Hitler, calling on "the Führer to defend the people against the Gestapo". "It is a terrible, unjust and catastrophic thing when man opposes his will to the will of God," Galen said. "We are talking about men and women, our compatriots, our brothers and sisters. Poor unproductive people if you wish, but does this mean that they have lost their right to live?"[59] Robert Lifton says of this sermon: "This powerful, populist sermon was immediately reproduced and distributed throughout Germany — indeed, it was dropped among German troops by British Royal Air Force pilots. Galen's sermon probably had a greater impact than any other statement in consolidating anti-'euthanasia' sentiment."[60] Another Bishop, Franz Bornewasser of Trier, also sent protests to Hitler, though not in public. In August Galen was even more outspoken, broadening his attack to include the Nazi persecution of religious orders and the closing of Catholic institutions. He attributed the heavy allied bombing of Westphalian towns to the wrath of God against Germany for breaking His laws.
my questions are:
Did Galen really denounce the euthanasia program in two separate sermons, or are the two mentioned sermons one and the same? and
In which sermon did Galen attribute "the heavy allied bombing of Westphalian towns to the wrath of God against Germany for breaking His laws".? I couldn't really find it in this one, except some sentences towards the ending which more or less predict punishment for those "who do not want what god wants".
Yaan ( talk) 20:02, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
There's a new navbox available, provided by the {{ Euthanasia}} template. What relation "Action T4" bears do modern day usage of the term "euthanasia" is of course a hotly debated topic, and I don't mean to state anything one way or the other. What do editors here feel, would it be appropriate to include that navbox in this article? Gabbe ( talk) 09:19, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
There is a problem with circular references here, to and from the lethal injection article. While it is obvious that the Nazis did not use the modern U.S. lethal injection protocol, WP does not say what drugs or methods they used. These facts are probably buried in the transcripts of the Doctors' Trial, but might also be in published books. I don't have access to a good research library, but some WP contributors do. Perhaps they could help. Donfbreed ( talk) 22:37, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
I removed the quote on Alexander's discussion of euthanasia and Action T4 as follows:
Similar, I've removed the reference to Alexander in:
The source for the quote is Alexander Leo, Medical Science Under Dictatorship, The New England Journal of Medicine, 1949, No.241, pages 39-47.
I then realised that there have been heated debates on this topic, so my apologies upfront. However, in reading the Alexander paper, the quote being used above was used to describe the preceding paragraph in his work, which was a description of what was happening in Germany in regard to Action T4. Alexander was effectively saying "this quote shows what the actual practice was in Germany" rather than "Action T4 is an example of the actual practice of euthanasia". - Bilby ( talk) 05:32, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Maybe a general reminder to all involved: This is an article about T4 and it is not about what does or does not constitute Euthanasia and what the term Euthanasia currently does or does not mean in the English speaking world.-- Kmhkmh ( talk) 05:53, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
TickleMeister: one must refer to the context, to find what Alexander is meaning. When he says "Here one sees what 'euthanasia' means in actual practice" he is not quoting euthanasia to differentiate this "nazi" euthanasia from a "good" euthanasia. When he quotes euthanasia is not because it would be a "nazi" euthanasia instead of a "good" euthanasia. There is not any proof that Alexander make any distinction between a "nazi" euthanasia and another sort of euthanasia. Instead reading the text one find evidence that for this author euthanasia is alwways euthanasia and a danger thing. In this section it was already quoted another parts of Alexander's text which should be useful to see this point:
... From the attitude of easing patients with chronic diseases away from the doors of the best types of treatment facilities available to the actual dispatching of such patients to killing centers is a long but nevertheless logical step ... To be sure, American physicians are still far from the point of thinking of killing centers, but they have arrived at a danger point in thinking, at which likelihood of full rehabilitation is considered a factor that should determine the amount of time, effort and cost to be devoted to a particular type of patient on the part of the social body upon which this decision rests. At this point Americans should remember that the enormity of a euthanasia movement is present in their own midst.
— Alexander Leo, Medical Science Under Dictatorship, The New England Journal of Medicine, 1949, No.241, pages 39-47
-- ClaudioSantos ( talk) 13:51, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
Consensus discussion have a particular form: editors try to persuade others, using reasons based in policy, sources, and common sense. The goal of a consensus discussion is to reach an agreement about article content, one which may not satisfy anyone completely but which all editors involved recognize as a reasonable exposition of the topic.
... If reliable references cannot be found to explain the apparent discrepancy, editors should resist the temptation to add their own explanation ...
An unpublished synthesis or analysis should not be presented for the readers' "benefit". Let the readers draw their own conclusions after seeing related facts in juxtaposition.
Wikipedia:These_are_not_original_research#Compiling_facts_and_information
I have removed the final sentence of that section, as the full quotation from Alexander is already given. The article is ultimately about Action T4, not about the significance of Action T4 to arguments about euthanasia, nor about the opinions of one commentator. Xanthoxyl < 12:01, 27 December 2010 (UTC)