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At the end of Chapter 370, if you look at Tobi's Sharingan it appears to be the same type of Mangekyou Sharingan as Itachi's. I happened to be reading a smaller edition of the chapter but after close inspection it's unmistakable. Of course, it (could) just be Kishimoto drawing small due of a lack of space, but atm it is safe to assume that Tobi has access to the Mangekyou. AnimeNikkaJamal 18:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
i cant remember where i saw, but i remember like a swirly vortex "thing" coming from what appeared to be tobi's mask. Does anyone know what im talking about, does anyone know what that was Threatening force 03:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Quote: No, that's just regular Sharingan. Mangekyo fills the pupil completely. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
To begin with, I am not adding another "Tobi isn't Madara" comment. As of now, the section on Tobi seems to refer to the behaviors he displayed before he was revealed to have authority over Pein and afterword almost interchangibly. For instance, after the article states that he refers to himself as Madara Uchiha, the following sentence goes on to describe the carefree personality he desplayed as "Tobi". In addition, this sections ends by stating that he is implied to be relatively young, despite the fact that Madara was stated to live at the founding of Konaha. What I am suggesting is that this section be reorganized slightly as to enstablish a clear distiction between the personality he displays while interacting with the Akatsuki members, and his personality as "Madara". 66.24.226.134 23:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
But what was mentioned in the opening post was that this was not meant to be another debate as to Tobi's identity, rather it was a suggestion that the section on Tobi clearly distinguish between the personality Tobi presents to Akatsuki, and his personality while speaking to Pein and while standing at the Madara statue. If one wanted to discuss whether or not Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga proves Tobi to be Madara, or if his identity is still undetermined, there are likely dosens of other places to discuss that. In my opinion the article ought to have a structure akin to "When first introduced Tobi...[description of his being presented as carefree and goofy, brightening the orginization, being referred to as 'a good boy', etc]" and in a seperate paragraph have "Following Deidara's death, Tobi is shown giving Pein orders, and refers to himself/ infers himself to be Madara Uchiha...[description of him as much more serious and arrogant, utilizing the Sharingan, etc]". This exact wording probably wouldn't work for the article, but this general structure might clarify to readers that Tobi does indeed undergo a significant change in behavior. 66.24.227.23 02:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Well actually tobi said the power my power uchiha madaras power I maybe think that madaras spirit is inside obitos body why else is there a slight personality change and tobi and madara look nothing alike he looks exactly like obito look the name obi(tobi) madara might be using obitos body plus why else would tobis mask have an eye that reveals his right eye cause he has no left he gave to kakashi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madara uchia ( talk • contribs) 00:48, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
In response to Madara uchia's comment, Tobi never actually said, "my power uchiha madara's power". What he said was literally Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga, which, according to several editors, could be translated a number of ways, one of which being that he outright refers to himself as Uchiha Madara, another way being that he has his power. Regardless, it would be fairly inaccurate to assume that the current, unofficial translatons carry the context of Tob's comment with complete accuracy (bear in mind the translation errors of All your Base). 24.24.90.148 23:12, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
isn't it about time we change Tobi's name to "Uchiha Madara"?-- Blue-Eyes Gold Dragon 12:31, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Because we hadn't whored out the Great Kawa's words enough:
Alright, I'll clear this up for the people who are clueless as to Japanese. I am no expert, but I am taking the JLPT and I have studied Japanese and act as an amateur translator. What Tobi says exactly is:「写輪眼の本当の力が・・・このうちはマダラの力が 」Which in roumaji transliterates to "Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga." Which in English literally means: "The Sharingan's true power...this/that, Uchiha Madara's power." Now, I and other amateur translators suggested on the forums where this Japanese was discussed that it meant he was referring to the "power of Uchiha Madara" which meant the Sharingan or something like that. However, expert translators and native Japanese have said that the "kono" which is usually used as a demonstrative adjective for "this/that (object)" is used sort of as a pronoun in reference to himself (a supervillain way, some translators said as when Zabuza said "Kono Momochi Zabuza" to refer to say "I am Momochi Zabuza") and his power. And the translation has been looked at over and over again by experts in Japanese and that seems to be the general consensus. So, wisen up and accept the translation! The great kawa 01:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
In short; he didn't just say "I am" or "This/that" he said, like a Bond Villain, he said he was Madara Uchiha.-- TheUltimate3 21:58, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Uchiha Madara is the only person who could summon the Nine Tailed Fox, that is Uchiha Madara's Power. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.93.229 ( talk) 20:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I'd just like to bring this up. On the Japanese forums, there is no translation issue. Most everyone refers to him as Madara. 69.19.14.40 10:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
If this translation is in fact accurate, then it would seem that Pein and Konan are likely the other two members of Jiraiya's team: http://www.msnusers.com/NarutoMangaReturns/chapter372.msnw 66.24.231.57 01:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Pein refers ta jiraiya as jiraiya sensei meaning he thought them something and hence can be considered his students —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.82.97.16 ( talk) 23:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I've said this before and i'll say it again, they are not his students. first of all a konoha ninja would not have a gennin team consisting of rain ninja. Secondly he only looked after them for 3 years and taught them ninjutsu. And besides it wasn't only those two. it was Konan, Pein and Yahiko so how could they be his students??? Minato's team is still unknown but i fink they will be revield soon Shadow shinobi 11:15, 15 October 2007 (UTC)ShadowShinobi
I didn't mean they weren't his students, I meant that they weren't the other two ninja in jiraiya's genin team. But what you said is completely true. Sign your adds nxt time. Shadow shinobi 20:39, 16 October 2007 (UTC)ShadowShinobi
Because the machines is still(good)speculation and we don't do speculation. So please change that please and thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neverknowndragon ( talk • contribs) 18:34, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
i took care of it but it said something about pein having six bodies and he could switch them though a machine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.118.116.168 ( talk) 14:56, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
it hasn't be proven yet so it is speculation and he has a new look so far but not a change of body right now
In the next manga chapter 373, it's revealed that the name of Pein's transformed eyes is Rinnegan(possible traslation) and it's the strongest of the three eye jutsu. So, I guess pretty soon we will need to update Pein's abilities. For more spoiler info check out: http://naruto-xx.blogspot.com/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.210.118 ( talk) 08:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
ye plz add the picture of the outline of the ninja of the "Rinnegan" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.196.137.10 ( talk) 00:05, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I will in about 20 minutes-- Blue-Eyes Gold Dragon 06:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Judging by the name of Pein's Dojutsu Rin'negan, it can be reasonably assumed that the Dojutsu is the cause of his body hopping, not the machines. I think, even though it's still speculation, that the part about the use of the machines to change bodies should be removed from the article if it hasn't already.
In the previews of the next manga, it shows Pain useing and a technique called Rinnegan, which transformered his eyes to what the look like now. I think that it should be mentioned somewhere in his bio. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.214.76.123 ( talk) 02:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Pein is Nagato! On saiyan island they have a translation guide. That guide states that Nagato is pein. Please repond and put up the new info! —Preceding unsigned comment added by RasenganController ( talk • contribs) 05:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Jazz! I just read it in English too! Nagato Like I said earlier is pein. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RasenganController ( talk • contribs) 20:43, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
As of now, all the information on Konan has been deleted from this article. Is there any perticular reason for this? 66.24.227.23 19:44, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah What Happened to Konan. Controller
I think that part about her not being able to use her origami while wet should be clarified. While in ch 372 jiraiya uses an oil based technique to stop her paper, in ch 373 she's using her paper while it's raining. I'm not sure why oil affects her paper more than water, but it's something to think about. 68.85.155.211 00:47, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Well it never said she was permanently made of paper, it could had just been the effect of her jutsu. If she was permanently made of paper then she wouldn't be able to stand in the rain when talking to Pein and Tobi at all. 71.200.36.214 21:22, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Well now in ch 374 Pein douses her with some kind of bubbly liquid allowing her to move and counteract Jiraiya's oil. So again I think we should consider changing whether or not she can use her origami abilities while wet or whether it's only certain types of liquid. 68.85.155.211 19:39, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Can someone please put up that Konan is a missing-nin from Amegakure? It's been revealed in the last chapter. Yes I know she's not wearing any visible headband, but it said that she's from Hidden Rain. 71.168.85.188 01:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC) Fantasy Leader
I don't think so. where'd you get this info from. I read the latest chapter and it does not come out and say konan is from Amagakure, hidden village in the rain. 71.168.85.188 01:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC) The Naruto King —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.31.85.22 ( talk)
If that's the case, then what village is she from? 71.168.85.188 17:59, 6 October 2007 (UTC) Fantasy Leader
We don't know. I'm not saying it isn't possible that Konan is from the Rain Village, it just it was never said, so nothing has been confirmed..—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.31.85.22 ( talk)
Um just a tiny thing. When Pain and Konan joined forces when they became orphans. Why would a child not from amegakure be in amegakure? Why would parents take her there when she couldn't defend herself? I think she is from amegakure. But that just may be me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.204.117.237 ( talk) 21:37, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Can we consider Konan a higher staus above Itachi and Kisame? Obviously Madara is the leader, with Pein sort of a figurehead (or second in command) Originally most people thought Zetsu held a higher status above the majority of the members, because that acted upon him as leader when he gave Pein's orders, but then on the otherhand, Konan refers to Pein by his name, a practice not done by the rest of the members. This may be because they were childhood friends but I digress.
One thing I don't like is on Konan's bio it says;
Konan can even form wings from that allow her to fly. This has led to her title as "God's Angel" amongst the villagers of Amegakure, a reference to her doing Pein's bidding
Yes, Konan was helping Pein when she went after Jiraiya, but I think "doing Pein's bidding" is a wrong statement to use here. There is nothing to confirm Konan plays the part of Pein's servant. It's a partnership. If anything, Pein and Konan are both second in command to Madara. Personally I feel it should read;
Konan can even form wings from that allow her to fly. This has led to her title as "God's Angel" amongst the villagers of Amegakure, a reference to her being an equal in the eyes of Pein, second in command along with his partner Konan, to Madara.
71.31.85.22 01:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC) The Naruto King
This info on the rinnegan is original research and should be changed. "Rinne (輪廻) is also the Japanese term for Samsara, the cycle of reincarnation or rebirth in several Indian religions; this possibly explains Pein's ability to switch between bodies." This should be a fact page and possibly is not a term that should be used on wikipedia. It is an interesting fact but sadly the manga hasn't revealed this. 65.23.245.27 01:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
The manga hasn't revealed a lot of things, but this is based on the Rinegan's english translation, Metemphychosis, which is transmigration, the ability to switch bodies.
This is not relevant information, the naruto world is apart from our world, switching bodies has nothing to do with rebirth or reincarnate, it's info that does not belong there. Point is that we should look at this information as if we're relating to the naruto world not with ours; finding out where the author created the word from has nothing to do with the kekei genkai described. 65.23.245.27 03:10, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
what are the three eye techniques jiraya said it contained?
Ranmaru has no basis in anything canon. He was a filler-arc throwaway character based in a poorly written story, like most of the nonsense spouted in the anime. When relating to the manga and Kishimoto's original Naruto opus, put the anime, the movies, and the OVA's, out of mind. 214.13.209.200 16:52, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Sure Ranmaru's not canon, but neither are the Sharingan and Byakugan being parts of the Sandou, which is my point. You can't verify their existence in the group, therefore you're using logic (i.e. original research) which equals fail on wikipedia. My basic point is this: If you have the right to relist the Sharingan and Byakugan as Legendary Doujutsu without official verification, I have the right to change "Pein" to "Pain", since it is just as logical but unverifiable. :win: AnimeNikkaJamal 23:01, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
(This probably also applies to the Kekkei genkai article.)
I'm going to admit I myself have no idea what Rinnegan's powers are since I'm too lazy to be bothered to read serial manga, but if they've been revealed, shouldn't they be stated, and if not, stated that the powers are unknown?— Loveはドコ? ( talk • contribs) 05:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Is pein the leder of rain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.163.183.85 ( talk) 18:24, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
This may be off-topic, but why was my status section deleted?
If the AL(don't know for an English Fact his name is Pein or Pain) is leader of the village wouldn't he be the Amekage. That would be so cool even though we know his village isn't top 5. SuperN 01:30, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
The translated chapter isn't out yet, but the raw is, which you can find at numerous sources included Narutofan. The point is that Pein is finally shown fighting (against Jiraiya), and he has two summons from what I gathered. One is a giant crab that spits water (which he used to hose Jiraiya's oil off of Konan), and a chameleon-lizard-chimera-thing. Shouldn't this be added to his article? 214.13.209.200 00:53, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I think it's either a Basilisk (would sorta match the doujutsu theme, wouldn't it?), or a Chimera... And the other summon looked more like a cancer if you ask me. 81.228.148.16 11:54, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Amekage?? Amegakure isn't one of the five top hidden villages. and therefor there can't be kages there.. right? 194.204.117.237 21:44, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
The article states that Akatsuki has world domination as it's goal and that acquiring the tailed beasts will return the Sharingan to it's full power. Yet the most recent chapter; 374 states that the tailed beasts are required to make some form of a superweapon jutsu and that Pein's goal is to force all Shinobi nations into dismantling their militaries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alwayssummerdays ( talk • contribs) 10:41, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, but this doesn't actually mean that the previous statements are wrong, you know. Pein considers himself a God, and most Gods in (western) religion are striving to make their religion the one and only, so it would just be logical if Pein's final goal IS world domination... Then again, he could've decieved the other members because he knew that they wouldn't understand his agenda of putting an end to the wars, I dunno... As for that Sharingan statement, I cannot recall something like that ever being explicitly stated... Frankly speaking, that sounds like OR, just like my theory that Hidan doesn't/didn't respect Pein because he, Pain, considers himself a God, getting him into collision course with Hidan's Jashin belief system. 81.228.148.16 11:47, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, what I'm assuming is this. Pain's goal is not to let the others dominate the world. He considers himself a god. Why would a god need humans who are not gods? They are just his pawns, to get the tailed beasts. The only possible reason that Pain told the others to live is because he needed him for the bombing. But again this is me assuming. 194.204.117.237 21:43, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
There is no mention about the abilities of Sasori to brainwash people like what he did against Yura and Kabuto. Tintor2 16:17, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
He used a jutsu, idk it's name, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gonzapalot ( talk • contribs) 21:39, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Well obviously Pein's summon isn't wholly either, but which one seems more like it? Aleriae 22:56, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it was meant to be a single creature. It looks like a combination of several different lizards, which is why I think Pein's article should be ammended to say it isn't a chameleon, but rather a chimera-like creature. 214.13.209.200 23:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
It's pretty much all chameleon except for the snake head tail. That long curly thing behind its head is obviously a horn, not an extra appendage or tail. There's another horn on the other side of his head, but it's been broken off and then bandaged. Some chameleons do have horns, for example, the Jackson's Chameleon. Kangarugh22 19:51, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
That's why it's called a "chameleon-like" creature. It's mostly chameleon but not quite. 214.13.209.200 20:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
It also seems to have tattered insect wings.Personally I think it was better off described as a chimera. Lastbetrayal 19:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
The aticle states that Tobi wants the tailed beasts to restore the Sharingan to it's full power,surely this is speculation?
Shouldnt we add his personality(the 1st and the 2nd) and his relationship with Sasuke and Naruto (He even left Naruto in chapter 369 to find sasuke. Tintor2 21:47, 18 October 2007(UTC)
Are Deidara's weird hands a kekkei genkai? 74.167.170.215 20:32, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
It was never specifically stated, but probably not. If Kidoumaru can have six arms and three eyes from his clans' techniques then I don't see how Deidara couldn't have gained three extra mouths from his. 214.13.209.200 21:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
on line 9 of the wardrobe paragraph, it says after ten years orochimaru has yet to be replaced. wasn't diedara recruited to replace him? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Itachi92 ( talk • contribs) 18:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Pein has more than just two summons. In addition to the crab and the chameleon, he has a multi-headed dog, a bird with a drill-like beak, and a yak. I might have forgotten one (he had so damn many), but regardless, his article should be amended. 214.13.209.200 21:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Apparently so, but they never said what the sixth was. 214.13.209.200 02:53, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
The six elements are wind, fire, water, lightning, earth, and ice(A rarer one, tyoically not seen outside of kekki genkai). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.149.123.31 ( talk) 04:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Isn't Star the sixth element? 71.168.85.188 14:17, 20 October 2007 (UTC) Fantasy Leader
Ice is a kekkei genkai, you goober. The sixth element is thusfar unknown. 214.13.209.200 15:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
If this was not what was really meant, I think the sixth element would be Sound. Intellect Ninja 01:59, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
The sixth element would probably be something akin to void or darkness in my oppinion. (Have they ever explained how Nara clan shadow techniques work?) Also, perhaps Pain/Nagato's different bodies correspond with a certain type of chakra element, with his first being water-based and his second Deidara type body being the unknown 6th type (maybe void-based to assist with constant summonings). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.131.172.208 ( talk) 11:55, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I vote it's something like Shadow. Inton, in the same pattern as Katon or Suiton or Raiton, just sounds like something Kishimoto would use. 68.90.48.216 20:06, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
The article says that Konan can fly with paper angel wings, however she is seen on several ocasions floating ar4ound without any wings at all. It is more likely that they were just for show and to be utilised for attacking, while her flight is derived from her near weightless paper body. In addition, it is said in teh article that she is called God's Angel because of the wings, but that was never stated, she was called that because she spreads Pein's words. The Konan article needs some revision. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.15 ( talk) 18:16, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
GUYS.....wat happened to ITACHI'S page? Did someone delete it o something? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.195.58.212 ( talk) 01:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
But still Itachi is a very important character so why merge it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naruto Beier ( talk • contribs) 14:00, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
He's got a headband. At first I thought it was Rain, then I thought it was Grass. Is there any word on what the village is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muramasa itachi ( talk • contribs) 03:08, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
How did Deidara fight Sauske without his hands? Because Gaara crushes one and Kakashi warps his other hand into another dimension. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naruto Beier ( talk • contribs) 13:57, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Tintor2 20:22, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
he new chapter's pot, and it's been revealed that:
-Pein can hide in his chameleon summon -Pein can, and has summoned two humans-members of Akatsuki -Jiraiya in his youth came to Myouboku Mountain where the Toad summons lived, and had great skills in the art of Toad ninjutsu -The mother of the two Elder Toads that Jiraiya summoned predicted this, as well as that one of Jiraiyas students would one day have the choice to bring peacce to, or to destroy, the world,and said that this was also Jiraiya's choice —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alwayssummerdays ( talk • contribs) 10:05, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
i strongly disagree that the toad sage was their mother, maybe father i assume... whatever, mother or father, the other called her/him old fart.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.127.70.48 ( talk) 13:17, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
that makes no sense when read
What are you talking about? Though perhaps it could have been reworded, grammatically it was correct, and the link worked fine. Itachi's father specifically remarked that Itachi had mastered the Great Fireball Technique at a very young age. Itachi actually makes frequent use of shadow clones as well, but I didn't insist on mentionning that. I also didn't make a fuss when Itachi was merged (even though I thought it was pretty ridiculous), because I was under the impression that for the most part, no information would lost. What's to be acheived by totally ignoring every "minor usage" of a jutsu by a character that uses a wide range of jutsu anyway? I don't like edit wars, I'd rather discuss this reasonably, so I hope you choose to as well. Feebas factor 00:45, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for clarifying that. Like I said, Itachi does in fact make frequent usage of Shadow Clones - but I won't insist on that point. However, in the interest of "communicating his battle style", might I suggest a mention about how he is notably quick with his movements and jutsu? I recall seeing such a point in a previous version; it is a consistent and notable feature of his battle style, and it is one which the current entry does not communicate. Here, I'll even find the aforementioned point.
Just a simple reference like that covers a lot of information and communicates a lot about Itachi that would otherwise be missing. Let's be reasonable about this, right? Feebas factor 03:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm not a grammar teacher but I guess that this line has to read some other way: "and even dedicates his final moments to apologizing to him". It would read better like this: "and even dedicates his final moments to apologize to him." or like this: "and even dedicates his final moments apologizing to him." I did not make the edit myself because I'm not completely sure. Also can it be mentioned why is he apologizing; is it for the huge explosion that can harm Tobi?; or apologizing for killing himself? Either way, if his apology is mentioned the motive for it should be mentioned too. Bvazq 14:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 |
At the end of Chapter 370, if you look at Tobi's Sharingan it appears to be the same type of Mangekyou Sharingan as Itachi's. I happened to be reading a smaller edition of the chapter but after close inspection it's unmistakable. Of course, it (could) just be Kishimoto drawing small due of a lack of space, but atm it is safe to assume that Tobi has access to the Mangekyou. AnimeNikkaJamal 18:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
i cant remember where i saw, but i remember like a swirly vortex "thing" coming from what appeared to be tobi's mask. Does anyone know what im talking about, does anyone know what that was Threatening force 03:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Quote: No, that's just regular Sharingan. Mangekyo fills the pupil completely. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
To begin with, I am not adding another "Tobi isn't Madara" comment. As of now, the section on Tobi seems to refer to the behaviors he displayed before he was revealed to have authority over Pein and afterword almost interchangibly. For instance, after the article states that he refers to himself as Madara Uchiha, the following sentence goes on to describe the carefree personality he desplayed as "Tobi". In addition, this sections ends by stating that he is implied to be relatively young, despite the fact that Madara was stated to live at the founding of Konaha. What I am suggesting is that this section be reorganized slightly as to enstablish a clear distiction between the personality he displays while interacting with the Akatsuki members, and his personality as "Madara". 66.24.226.134 23:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
But what was mentioned in the opening post was that this was not meant to be another debate as to Tobi's identity, rather it was a suggestion that the section on Tobi clearly distinguish between the personality Tobi presents to Akatsuki, and his personality while speaking to Pein and while standing at the Madara statue. If one wanted to discuss whether or not Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga proves Tobi to be Madara, or if his identity is still undetermined, there are likely dosens of other places to discuss that. In my opinion the article ought to have a structure akin to "When first introduced Tobi...[description of his being presented as carefree and goofy, brightening the orginization, being referred to as 'a good boy', etc]" and in a seperate paragraph have "Following Deidara's death, Tobi is shown giving Pein orders, and refers to himself/ infers himself to be Madara Uchiha...[description of him as much more serious and arrogant, utilizing the Sharingan, etc]". This exact wording probably wouldn't work for the article, but this general structure might clarify to readers that Tobi does indeed undergo a significant change in behavior. 66.24.227.23 02:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Well actually tobi said the power my power uchiha madaras power I maybe think that madaras spirit is inside obitos body why else is there a slight personality change and tobi and madara look nothing alike he looks exactly like obito look the name obi(tobi) madara might be using obitos body plus why else would tobis mask have an eye that reveals his right eye cause he has no left he gave to kakashi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madara uchia ( talk • contribs) 00:48, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
In response to Madara uchia's comment, Tobi never actually said, "my power uchiha madara's power". What he said was literally Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga, which, according to several editors, could be translated a number of ways, one of which being that he outright refers to himself as Uchiha Madara, another way being that he has his power. Regardless, it would be fairly inaccurate to assume that the current, unofficial translatons carry the context of Tob's comment with complete accuracy (bear in mind the translation errors of All your Base). 24.24.90.148 23:12, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
isn't it about time we change Tobi's name to "Uchiha Madara"?-- Blue-Eyes Gold Dragon 12:31, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Because we hadn't whored out the Great Kawa's words enough:
Alright, I'll clear this up for the people who are clueless as to Japanese. I am no expert, but I am taking the JLPT and I have studied Japanese and act as an amateur translator. What Tobi says exactly is:「写輪眼の本当の力が・・・このうちはマダラの力が 」Which in roumaji transliterates to "Sharingan no hontou no chikara ga...kono Uchiha Madara no chikara ga." Which in English literally means: "The Sharingan's true power...this/that, Uchiha Madara's power." Now, I and other amateur translators suggested on the forums where this Japanese was discussed that it meant he was referring to the "power of Uchiha Madara" which meant the Sharingan or something like that. However, expert translators and native Japanese have said that the "kono" which is usually used as a demonstrative adjective for "this/that (object)" is used sort of as a pronoun in reference to himself (a supervillain way, some translators said as when Zabuza said "Kono Momochi Zabuza" to refer to say "I am Momochi Zabuza") and his power. And the translation has been looked at over and over again by experts in Japanese and that seems to be the general consensus. So, wisen up and accept the translation! The great kawa 01:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
In short; he didn't just say "I am" or "This/that" he said, like a Bond Villain, he said he was Madara Uchiha.-- TheUltimate3 21:58, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Uchiha Madara is the only person who could summon the Nine Tailed Fox, that is Uchiha Madara's Power. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.93.229 ( talk) 20:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I'd just like to bring this up. On the Japanese forums, there is no translation issue. Most everyone refers to him as Madara. 69.19.14.40 10:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
If this translation is in fact accurate, then it would seem that Pein and Konan are likely the other two members of Jiraiya's team: http://www.msnusers.com/NarutoMangaReturns/chapter372.msnw 66.24.231.57 01:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Pein refers ta jiraiya as jiraiya sensei meaning he thought them something and hence can be considered his students —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.82.97.16 ( talk) 23:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I've said this before and i'll say it again, they are not his students. first of all a konoha ninja would not have a gennin team consisting of rain ninja. Secondly he only looked after them for 3 years and taught them ninjutsu. And besides it wasn't only those two. it was Konan, Pein and Yahiko so how could they be his students??? Minato's team is still unknown but i fink they will be revield soon Shadow shinobi 11:15, 15 October 2007 (UTC)ShadowShinobi
I didn't mean they weren't his students, I meant that they weren't the other two ninja in jiraiya's genin team. But what you said is completely true. Sign your adds nxt time. Shadow shinobi 20:39, 16 October 2007 (UTC)ShadowShinobi
Because the machines is still(good)speculation and we don't do speculation. So please change that please and thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neverknowndragon ( talk • contribs) 18:34, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
i took care of it but it said something about pein having six bodies and he could switch them though a machine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.118.116.168 ( talk) 14:56, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
it hasn't be proven yet so it is speculation and he has a new look so far but not a change of body right now
In the next manga chapter 373, it's revealed that the name of Pein's transformed eyes is Rinnegan(possible traslation) and it's the strongest of the three eye jutsu. So, I guess pretty soon we will need to update Pein's abilities. For more spoiler info check out: http://naruto-xx.blogspot.com/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.210.118 ( talk) 08:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
ye plz add the picture of the outline of the ninja of the "Rinnegan" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.196.137.10 ( talk) 00:05, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I will in about 20 minutes-- Blue-Eyes Gold Dragon 06:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Judging by the name of Pein's Dojutsu Rin'negan, it can be reasonably assumed that the Dojutsu is the cause of his body hopping, not the machines. I think, even though it's still speculation, that the part about the use of the machines to change bodies should be removed from the article if it hasn't already.
In the previews of the next manga, it shows Pain useing and a technique called Rinnegan, which transformered his eyes to what the look like now. I think that it should be mentioned somewhere in his bio. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.214.76.123 ( talk) 02:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Pein is Nagato! On saiyan island they have a translation guide. That guide states that Nagato is pein. Please repond and put up the new info! —Preceding unsigned comment added by RasenganController ( talk • contribs) 05:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Jazz! I just read it in English too! Nagato Like I said earlier is pein. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RasenganController ( talk • contribs) 20:43, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
As of now, all the information on Konan has been deleted from this article. Is there any perticular reason for this? 66.24.227.23 19:44, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah What Happened to Konan. Controller
I think that part about her not being able to use her origami while wet should be clarified. While in ch 372 jiraiya uses an oil based technique to stop her paper, in ch 373 she's using her paper while it's raining. I'm not sure why oil affects her paper more than water, but it's something to think about. 68.85.155.211 00:47, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Well it never said she was permanently made of paper, it could had just been the effect of her jutsu. If she was permanently made of paper then she wouldn't be able to stand in the rain when talking to Pein and Tobi at all. 71.200.36.214 21:22, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Well now in ch 374 Pein douses her with some kind of bubbly liquid allowing her to move and counteract Jiraiya's oil. So again I think we should consider changing whether or not she can use her origami abilities while wet or whether it's only certain types of liquid. 68.85.155.211 19:39, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Can someone please put up that Konan is a missing-nin from Amegakure? It's been revealed in the last chapter. Yes I know she's not wearing any visible headband, but it said that she's from Hidden Rain. 71.168.85.188 01:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC) Fantasy Leader
I don't think so. where'd you get this info from. I read the latest chapter and it does not come out and say konan is from Amagakure, hidden village in the rain. 71.168.85.188 01:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC) The Naruto King —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.31.85.22 ( talk)
If that's the case, then what village is she from? 71.168.85.188 17:59, 6 October 2007 (UTC) Fantasy Leader
We don't know. I'm not saying it isn't possible that Konan is from the Rain Village, it just it was never said, so nothing has been confirmed..—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.31.85.22 ( talk)
Um just a tiny thing. When Pain and Konan joined forces when they became orphans. Why would a child not from amegakure be in amegakure? Why would parents take her there when she couldn't defend herself? I think she is from amegakure. But that just may be me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.204.117.237 ( talk) 21:37, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Can we consider Konan a higher staus above Itachi and Kisame? Obviously Madara is the leader, with Pein sort of a figurehead (or second in command) Originally most people thought Zetsu held a higher status above the majority of the members, because that acted upon him as leader when he gave Pein's orders, but then on the otherhand, Konan refers to Pein by his name, a practice not done by the rest of the members. This may be because they were childhood friends but I digress.
One thing I don't like is on Konan's bio it says;
Konan can even form wings from that allow her to fly. This has led to her title as "God's Angel" amongst the villagers of Amegakure, a reference to her doing Pein's bidding
Yes, Konan was helping Pein when she went after Jiraiya, but I think "doing Pein's bidding" is a wrong statement to use here. There is nothing to confirm Konan plays the part of Pein's servant. It's a partnership. If anything, Pein and Konan are both second in command to Madara. Personally I feel it should read;
Konan can even form wings from that allow her to fly. This has led to her title as "God's Angel" amongst the villagers of Amegakure, a reference to her being an equal in the eyes of Pein, second in command along with his partner Konan, to Madara.
71.31.85.22 01:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC) The Naruto King
This info on the rinnegan is original research and should be changed. "Rinne (輪廻) is also the Japanese term for Samsara, the cycle of reincarnation or rebirth in several Indian religions; this possibly explains Pein's ability to switch between bodies." This should be a fact page and possibly is not a term that should be used on wikipedia. It is an interesting fact but sadly the manga hasn't revealed this. 65.23.245.27 01:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
The manga hasn't revealed a lot of things, but this is based on the Rinegan's english translation, Metemphychosis, which is transmigration, the ability to switch bodies.
This is not relevant information, the naruto world is apart from our world, switching bodies has nothing to do with rebirth or reincarnate, it's info that does not belong there. Point is that we should look at this information as if we're relating to the naruto world not with ours; finding out where the author created the word from has nothing to do with the kekei genkai described. 65.23.245.27 03:10, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
what are the three eye techniques jiraya said it contained?
Ranmaru has no basis in anything canon. He was a filler-arc throwaway character based in a poorly written story, like most of the nonsense spouted in the anime. When relating to the manga and Kishimoto's original Naruto opus, put the anime, the movies, and the OVA's, out of mind. 214.13.209.200 16:52, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Sure Ranmaru's not canon, but neither are the Sharingan and Byakugan being parts of the Sandou, which is my point. You can't verify their existence in the group, therefore you're using logic (i.e. original research) which equals fail on wikipedia. My basic point is this: If you have the right to relist the Sharingan and Byakugan as Legendary Doujutsu without official verification, I have the right to change "Pein" to "Pain", since it is just as logical but unverifiable. :win: AnimeNikkaJamal 23:01, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
(This probably also applies to the Kekkei genkai article.)
I'm going to admit I myself have no idea what Rinnegan's powers are since I'm too lazy to be bothered to read serial manga, but if they've been revealed, shouldn't they be stated, and if not, stated that the powers are unknown?— Loveはドコ? ( talk • contribs) 05:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Is pein the leder of rain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.163.183.85 ( talk) 18:24, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
This may be off-topic, but why was my status section deleted?
If the AL(don't know for an English Fact his name is Pein or Pain) is leader of the village wouldn't he be the Amekage. That would be so cool even though we know his village isn't top 5. SuperN 01:30, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
The translated chapter isn't out yet, but the raw is, which you can find at numerous sources included Narutofan. The point is that Pein is finally shown fighting (against Jiraiya), and he has two summons from what I gathered. One is a giant crab that spits water (which he used to hose Jiraiya's oil off of Konan), and a chameleon-lizard-chimera-thing. Shouldn't this be added to his article? 214.13.209.200 00:53, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I think it's either a Basilisk (would sorta match the doujutsu theme, wouldn't it?), or a Chimera... And the other summon looked more like a cancer if you ask me. 81.228.148.16 11:54, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Amekage?? Amegakure isn't one of the five top hidden villages. and therefor there can't be kages there.. right? 194.204.117.237 21:44, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
The article states that Akatsuki has world domination as it's goal and that acquiring the tailed beasts will return the Sharingan to it's full power. Yet the most recent chapter; 374 states that the tailed beasts are required to make some form of a superweapon jutsu and that Pein's goal is to force all Shinobi nations into dismantling their militaries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alwayssummerdays ( talk • contribs) 10:41, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, but this doesn't actually mean that the previous statements are wrong, you know. Pein considers himself a God, and most Gods in (western) religion are striving to make their religion the one and only, so it would just be logical if Pein's final goal IS world domination... Then again, he could've decieved the other members because he knew that they wouldn't understand his agenda of putting an end to the wars, I dunno... As for that Sharingan statement, I cannot recall something like that ever being explicitly stated... Frankly speaking, that sounds like OR, just like my theory that Hidan doesn't/didn't respect Pein because he, Pain, considers himself a God, getting him into collision course with Hidan's Jashin belief system. 81.228.148.16 11:47, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, what I'm assuming is this. Pain's goal is not to let the others dominate the world. He considers himself a god. Why would a god need humans who are not gods? They are just his pawns, to get the tailed beasts. The only possible reason that Pain told the others to live is because he needed him for the bombing. But again this is me assuming. 194.204.117.237 21:43, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
There is no mention about the abilities of Sasori to brainwash people like what he did against Yura and Kabuto. Tintor2 16:17, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
He used a jutsu, idk it's name, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gonzapalot ( talk • contribs) 21:39, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Well obviously Pein's summon isn't wholly either, but which one seems more like it? Aleriae 22:56, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it was meant to be a single creature. It looks like a combination of several different lizards, which is why I think Pein's article should be ammended to say it isn't a chameleon, but rather a chimera-like creature. 214.13.209.200 23:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
It's pretty much all chameleon except for the snake head tail. That long curly thing behind its head is obviously a horn, not an extra appendage or tail. There's another horn on the other side of his head, but it's been broken off and then bandaged. Some chameleons do have horns, for example, the Jackson's Chameleon. Kangarugh22 19:51, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
That's why it's called a "chameleon-like" creature. It's mostly chameleon but not quite. 214.13.209.200 20:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
It also seems to have tattered insect wings.Personally I think it was better off described as a chimera. Lastbetrayal 19:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
The aticle states that Tobi wants the tailed beasts to restore the Sharingan to it's full power,surely this is speculation?
Shouldnt we add his personality(the 1st and the 2nd) and his relationship with Sasuke and Naruto (He even left Naruto in chapter 369 to find sasuke. Tintor2 21:47, 18 October 2007(UTC)
Are Deidara's weird hands a kekkei genkai? 74.167.170.215 20:32, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
It was never specifically stated, but probably not. If Kidoumaru can have six arms and three eyes from his clans' techniques then I don't see how Deidara couldn't have gained three extra mouths from his. 214.13.209.200 21:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
on line 9 of the wardrobe paragraph, it says after ten years orochimaru has yet to be replaced. wasn't diedara recruited to replace him? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Itachi92 ( talk • contribs) 18:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Pein has more than just two summons. In addition to the crab and the chameleon, he has a multi-headed dog, a bird with a drill-like beak, and a yak. I might have forgotten one (he had so damn many), but regardless, his article should be amended. 214.13.209.200 21:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Apparently so, but they never said what the sixth was. 214.13.209.200 02:53, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
The six elements are wind, fire, water, lightning, earth, and ice(A rarer one, tyoically not seen outside of kekki genkai). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.149.123.31 ( talk) 04:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Isn't Star the sixth element? 71.168.85.188 14:17, 20 October 2007 (UTC) Fantasy Leader
Ice is a kekkei genkai, you goober. The sixth element is thusfar unknown. 214.13.209.200 15:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
If this was not what was really meant, I think the sixth element would be Sound. Intellect Ninja 01:59, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
The sixth element would probably be something akin to void or darkness in my oppinion. (Have they ever explained how Nara clan shadow techniques work?) Also, perhaps Pain/Nagato's different bodies correspond with a certain type of chakra element, with his first being water-based and his second Deidara type body being the unknown 6th type (maybe void-based to assist with constant summonings). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.131.172.208 ( talk) 11:55, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I vote it's something like Shadow. Inton, in the same pattern as Katon or Suiton or Raiton, just sounds like something Kishimoto would use. 68.90.48.216 20:06, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
The article says that Konan can fly with paper angel wings, however she is seen on several ocasions floating ar4ound without any wings at all. It is more likely that they were just for show and to be utilised for attacking, while her flight is derived from her near weightless paper body. In addition, it is said in teh article that she is called God's Angel because of the wings, but that was never stated, she was called that because she spreads Pein's words. The Konan article needs some revision. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.130.15 ( talk) 18:16, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
GUYS.....wat happened to ITACHI'S page? Did someone delete it o something? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.195.58.212 ( talk) 01:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
But still Itachi is a very important character so why merge it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naruto Beier ( talk • contribs) 14:00, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
He's got a headband. At first I thought it was Rain, then I thought it was Grass. Is there any word on what the village is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muramasa itachi ( talk • contribs) 03:08, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
How did Deidara fight Sauske without his hands? Because Gaara crushes one and Kakashi warps his other hand into another dimension. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naruto Beier ( talk • contribs) 13:57, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Tintor2 20:22, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
he new chapter's pot, and it's been revealed that:
-Pein can hide in his chameleon summon -Pein can, and has summoned two humans-members of Akatsuki -Jiraiya in his youth came to Myouboku Mountain where the Toad summons lived, and had great skills in the art of Toad ninjutsu -The mother of the two Elder Toads that Jiraiya summoned predicted this, as well as that one of Jiraiyas students would one day have the choice to bring peacce to, or to destroy, the world,and said that this was also Jiraiya's choice —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alwayssummerdays ( talk • contribs) 10:05, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
i strongly disagree that the toad sage was their mother, maybe father i assume... whatever, mother or father, the other called her/him old fart.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.127.70.48 ( talk) 13:17, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
that makes no sense when read
What are you talking about? Though perhaps it could have been reworded, grammatically it was correct, and the link worked fine. Itachi's father specifically remarked that Itachi had mastered the Great Fireball Technique at a very young age. Itachi actually makes frequent use of shadow clones as well, but I didn't insist on mentionning that. I also didn't make a fuss when Itachi was merged (even though I thought it was pretty ridiculous), because I was under the impression that for the most part, no information would lost. What's to be acheived by totally ignoring every "minor usage" of a jutsu by a character that uses a wide range of jutsu anyway? I don't like edit wars, I'd rather discuss this reasonably, so I hope you choose to as well. Feebas factor 00:45, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for clarifying that. Like I said, Itachi does in fact make frequent usage of Shadow Clones - but I won't insist on that point. However, in the interest of "communicating his battle style", might I suggest a mention about how he is notably quick with his movements and jutsu? I recall seeing such a point in a previous version; it is a consistent and notable feature of his battle style, and it is one which the current entry does not communicate. Here, I'll even find the aforementioned point.
Just a simple reference like that covers a lot of information and communicates a lot about Itachi that would otherwise be missing. Let's be reasonable about this, right? Feebas factor 03:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm not a grammar teacher but I guess that this line has to read some other way: "and even dedicates his final moments to apologizing to him". It would read better like this: "and even dedicates his final moments to apologize to him." or like this: "and even dedicates his final moments apologizing to him." I did not make the edit myself because I'm not completely sure. Also can it be mentioned why is he apologizing; is it for the huge explosion that can harm Tobi?; or apologizing for killing himself? Either way, if his apology is mentioned the motive for it should be mentioned too. Bvazq 14:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)