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The paintings in the Ajanta caves are often mistakenly referred to as frescoes. A fresco refers to the application of colours to moist lime plaster. At Ajanta, the paintings were done on dry wall.
http://www.tourismofindia.com/hiwhh/ajantacaves.htm
- Not according to the article at present, which says they are not frescoes & then describes exactly a fresco technique. Johnbod 14:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is Ajanta "more properly" Ajujnthi? Is this a more Sanskritic form? In the modern vernaculars, at least, it is अजंता or ajantā. QuartierLatin 1968 19:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Ajințhā is the name of the village nearby that has lent its name to the caves. The British could not pronounce it correctly, and they started calling it Ajanta. From the above discussion, both "Ajantha" (with h) and "Ajujnthi" are incorrect. In some south Indian languages t of Sanskrit or Hindi becomes th. In fact, Ajanta or Ajintha are neither Hindi nor Sanskrit! Ajanta is what the British started writing in literature and reports on the subject, and Ajintha is what the local inhabitants of the region still call the caves in Marathi language! Rajesh Kumar Singh ( talk) 18:59, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
The page points here: 20°32′01″N, 75°44′59″E The caves are actually here: 20°31'54"N 75°44'21"E
The difference is small, but if you don't know what you are looking for you would never get to the caves from the village indicated.
I am sorry but I disagree with whom ever wrote the comment above. If you use Google map to look for the caves you will see that they are located on a curved mountain ridge about two miles north-west of those coordinate. --Mirrordor 05:48, 15 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirrordor ( talk • contribs)
The article Hoysala architecture is an example of a properly sourced article per WP:V and could serve as a good model for this one. Each sentence in Hoysala architecture was written by an editor and all information there is referenced so the reader can see for him/her self the information in the original source and whether the Wikipedia editor has interpreted it correctly or not. Sincerely, Mattisse 15:31, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
The entire Period of the Caves section of this article was lifted directly from Exotic India Art. Because this represents a copyright violation, I have removed the offending text. Kindest regards, AlphaEta T / C 15:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
{{geodata-check}}
The coordinates need the following fixes: remove minus before longitude - location is in Cuba, not india!
-- 67.164.156.103 ( talk) 22:24, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
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By [1], do you mean that the stuff removed (most of the article) is a WP:COPYVIO? It is not clear that it is WP:OR, indeed this doesn't look likely. If so, can you add a note at the talk, saying which work etc. Thanks. Johnbod ( talk) 14:02, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
As brutal as it maybe doing this kind of "article surgery", I think it was a necessary decision to start building a more generalised article that is better for readers and complies with Wikipedia's policy and style. That said, if you have a reasonable counter-argument, then feel free to revert me! SFB 14:14, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Copied from User talk:Sillyfolkboy & my talk Johnbod ( talk) 15:00, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Hi, in 2005 I wrote a short intro and some stuff on Caves 1 and 2 leaving the rest for others. But I am surprised that even after 7 years of gap, the page on Ajanta caves has grown only little. Now, when I have some time, I wish to complete the page bit by bit in a month or two. I shall try to write briefly on all the caves. Every day, I shall be adding or deleting things, because I am able to notice many incorrect or outdated information here. As my book on Ajanta (An Introduction the Ajanta Caves http://books.google.co.in/books?id=CxogemPuCgIC&lpg=PR9&dq=ajanta%20caves%20singh&pg=PR1#v=onepage&q=ajanta%20caves%20singh&f=false) may show, there is considerable new knowledge on the subject brought forth by noted subject experts, e.g. Dieter Schlingloff, Monika Zin, Hans Bakker, Walter Spink, the present contributor, etc. Scholars collectively agree that a lot of contents in older literature is now invalid. So, please do not mind if I shall be deleting a lot of that stuff placed by some wikipedia users. Editors are free to revert the content back if my deletions/additions are found unreasonable or unwarranted. And, yes, I shall be mindful of adding citations (but in that case, almost every sentence may require one, because the above-named consortium of scholars, including the present contributor, strongly disagree with a lot of published research older than, say, three to four decades!) Wikipedia editors must decide whether they want older ideas or the current ones! Rajesh Kumar Singh ( talk) 19:24, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Few things I may mention. 1) My English is not good. So, kindly help me there by necessary editing. My grammar is terrible. I hire language editors before my things go to the press. 2) As I said, it is such a topic where, indeed, every subject of ancient India where the writers must be extremely careful while writing. I follow a self-imposed discipline: write what is based on hard evidence, no personal opinions or views; at the same time do NOT let earlier, outdated, incorrect information pollute the current reader's mind. Archaeological Survey of India's account of Ajanta caves are ancient, outdated. None of the Ajanta scholars any more ascribe to the official view. There is a brain drain in ASI. So, I would be wary of citing the ASI. Sadly, even UNESCO has done little about to update their records on Ajanta's history (they depend on the ASI's account, and I don't know if anyone is there reading the current research). I favour Spink's views. But other writers have criticized his views. So, the best things should be to cite Spink where he is indisputably correct, and not to cite him, where his views have been contested. I deleted some sentences attributed to Spink because 1)the portion deleted is now a common knowledge and no individual can be credited for that piece of wisdom. 2) Because, even Spink is wrong many a times, e.g. he still calls the caves by Hinayana and Mahauyana phases---something the circle of Buddhologists working on Ajanta (e.g. Dhavalikar, Schopen, Schlingloff, Zin, etc.) can't stand, including me! Please, hold on until Jan. Let me complete. Then please proceed with any surgery you like. In the end, I shall be placing the citations, as I normally do.:) Rajesh Kumar Singh ( talk) 08:22, 5 December 2012 (UTC) P.S. I read Johnbod's talk again, and on second reading, I feel that I have created an adverse impression in his mind by whatever things I wrote or whatever changes I did. I was only thinking of coming to the service of common good by sharing whatever little that I know about the subject. But, now I would not proceed ahead, unless being invited to do so. Kindly leaf through my book placed first in the external link. If you want any content quality of that kind, kindly write me back, or else I am signing off from wikipedia forever.:) Rajesh Kumar Singh ( talk) 08:40, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi John. Thanks. NONE of the fifth century caves was ever fully completed (Spink and Singh, chapters on caves 1, 2, 16, and 17). MOST of the fifth century caves were NEVER dedicated or put to worship. In fact, only a couple of shrines were hurriedly dedicated, even before the cave's completion, and worship started. But, even such worship activities were marred by ongoing work on pillars, paintings, sculptures, etc... And, if this chaotic scene inside the caves (the sounds of hammers and chisels) were not enough, the Vakataka empire collapsed after the death of Harisena. The site was abruptly abandoned, and all concerned fled from the region. Thus, to make it brief---the site was never 'used as a college' or something. These are wild assumptions made by many Ajanta writers in the past without the support of any evidence. That is why I earlier deleted the whole of the first paragraph. I can explain every single word that I would be deleting or adding. Kindly feel free to question.:) Rajesh Kumar Singh ( talk) 09:59, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
Is there a way to get the removed portions back again so that I can see that source. Literary source? There is NO piece of ancient literary source referring even remotely to Ajanta (except Xuanzang who never visited the place, and said the roaring of the elephants ((cave 16 elephants)) could be heard far and wide). John, please... I request you with folded hands to research properly before making such a point. May I give you the emails of six noted Ajanta experts (Spink, Schlingloff, Monika Zin, Hans Bakker, Dhavalikar, and Jamkhedkar), and request you put the question to them; if any one can endorse your point, or the point that Ajanta was envisaged or used as a college, I shall accept my ignorance, and ask for forgiveness.) Rajesh Kumar Singh ( talk) 16:07, 6 December 2012 (UTC) Post script: I better leave this article as is. It is not possible to go ahead when you are bringing in the examples of western cathedrals to make a point on ajanta. Kindly revert back the changes I have made so far (as I am not familiar with wikipedia tools that allows an author to reverse the changes.). Rajesh Kumar Singh ( talk) 16:37, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. I read the deleted stuff again. Yes, that whole paragraph indeed should be deleted, as the information it provides is outright INCORRECT. If you do not trust me send that paragraph, please, to any one of the above-named living ajanta experts. And--if I may repeat---if any one of them can endorse that paragraph to be factual, I shall ask for your forgiveness. No John. Sorry, I cannot go on. You are making an outlandish point, untenable objections, and asking me to place things to the detail that should not go here in a article of this kind meant for general audience. With best. Rajesh Kumar Singh ( talk) 06:35, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
There is a difference between inquiry and objection. With utmost reluctance I must say that your approach as an editor is not helpful. Without adequate knowledge on the subject you are making objections to factual information, and supporting in favor of non-factual information to be included and retained here. It would scare away serious contributors. I have no intention to continue any more, and have no patience to fill the pages here rather than in the main article! Rajesh Kumar Singh ( talk) 16:41, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
Quote: The caves include paintings and sculptures described by the government Archaeological Survey of India as "the finest surviving examples of Indian art, particularly painting'
How can it be 'Indian' art? India is a nation that commenced in 1947. To use an allegory, if the site had been situated in current day Pakistan, would it be mentioned as finest example of Pakistani art? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
117.214.18.22 (
talk) 17:42, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Good Question to think indeed. MediaJet talk 04:34, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
Many of the citations are to "Spink (2006)". Spink has quite a few publications on Ajanta (see http://www.walterspink.com/history). Which one is it? Malaiya ( talk)
It is rather extensive:
http://www.ijcs.uaic.ro/public/IJCS-13-17-Singh.pdf
©Geni ( talk) 00:08, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
@ पाटलिपुत्र: The article has too many images and galleries, making the article difficult to follow and a photo album-like. We need to consider a major roll back per MOS:IMAGES and MOS, though you clearly have put a lot of hard work. FWIW, I like the quality of your images, and perhaps we should make a page on wikimedia and link it here. That would productively reuse the good work you have put in, and make those images available to the interested readers. @ Joshua Jonathan:, @ JimRenge:, @ Farang Rak Tham:, others: Thoughts? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 18:51, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
(ps): Note that too many images make an article difficult to access/read on mobile devices, and for readers with access challenges (braille readers etc). Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 18:55, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
A separate page, Ajanta Caves paintings would surely be a good idea. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 03:57, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
That is not how BRD works. Anyone interested can still view your version by clicking this. Repeating and showcasing images is problematic, and not consistent with content guidelines. I am fine with proposals above, but no one is saying lets showcase images. The galaxy of images you added generally do not contribute to understanding. We need to identify and include those that do. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 15:19, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Some suggestions, largely guided by comments of RexxS above:
Comments welcome, Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 16:17, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
@ Johnbod:, others: Should the painting section be separate, or merged into each cave discussion? Each style has its advantages. A separate section allows us to discuss and compare the paintings, their evolution, etc. Merging it has the advantage of clearer and comprehensive discussion of each cave. We should pick one style, and avoid repetition. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 03:39, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Johnbod: You touch upon some valid concerns, and may be mixing up edits by पाटलिपुत्र and I (and other editors post-2015). I too am concerned with the article size, the ability to download it by mobile users with limited bandwidth or non-smartphone devices. This will get worse if we summarize each cave then add 4 images per cave because that will make this article balloon. The paintings are important, but by no means do they overwhelm everything else. These were religious structures: worship halls and monasteries. This in itself has significance given their 2nd century BCE to 5th century CE dating and their history. The frieze narratives such as those from the Jataka tales are important for many reasons. There is more. But we can't convert this article into a book! It is supposed to be an encyclopedic summary... a balance between being a comprehensive resource and a good summary. In my review, some sections have improved since "your final 2015 version", others not at all. It has our attention now, along with some other very seasoned editors who have commented above / edited recently. Let us try to nudge this article with improvements. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 19:15, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Put the book in "references" and just have a short title and the page number in the individual cite. 02:17, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
पाटलिपुत्र: Why rely on the 125+ year old Fergusson source (even if its copyright has expired)? Why not more recent publications such as those by Cohen, Spink, etc? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 15:04, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
@ Johnbod: would you study the two images from Albert Hall Museum we have on commons, 1 and 2, please. They are neither originals nor enhanced photos, from what I remember from my visits to Ajanta and the photos I have in my own archive library. Since you too have been there, do these photos look like faithful copy of what you saw? To me, they look like some recent artist's paintings inspired by two paintings in Ajanta. One of them has been added to this article AGF. It would be nice if they indeed clear PD-Art and we could use them, but can we? are we okay on copyright? पाटलिपुत्र: your thoughts? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 20:18, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
पाटलिपुत्र: we have too many images and splitting sections is not improving the article! As Johnbod and others noted, we need to keep article size and the reader in mind. We don't need separate section for every cave, nor for 6U, 6L, 9A, 9B etc etc such as one with this edit. The structure and images we choose is not for illustration nor to show off (not that this is your intent, but it is the result). Our choices should be based on what helps understand the subject (see RexxS suggestions). There is little point in another standing or sitting Buddha in every section, nor another image of another cave interior. We should discuss, invite comments and reach a consensus. I suggest we revisit the ideas of other editors, see above, about possibly splitting the article. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 17:20, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
पाटलिपुत्र: The foreigner scenes as a % of all scenes or murals are very few. We need to summarize this, but overstating the foreigner section creates an NPOV and undue/balance issues. Further: [1] the scholarly dispute about them need to be woven in and explained together to avoid POV pushing or confusing the reader, not listed in separate subsections, per wikipedia content guidelines; [2] we must not use wikipedia voice, but attribute because much of that is WP:Primary. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 13:19, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
References
Sorry, I feel you are missing the point. Let me make it again... this is an article on Ajanta Caves. It is not about Speculations and Disagreements about foreigners in Ajanta Caves, nor about Speculations and Disagreements about Natives in Ajanta Caves, nor about Ajanta Caves: did South Asians have a stereotypical look in ancient times, etc. Too much of foreigners / natives is undue content and comes across as POV-pushing, even if it can be supported with eccentric sources, or 100 or 50 years old sources, or even new sources. The article has numerous sections already. Overloading one section, expanding it much, presenting zillion images and making the reader wade through a large essay discussing disputed ethnicity of 1% of 5% of faces in Ajanta artwork is not NPOV. If you sense that Ajanta-related WP:RS does not discuss Jataka tales, or Buddhism, or South Asians, or etc in detail then you are mistaken. If we want to discuss ethnicity, discuss the 95-99% of the faces in the artwork, citing RS. As I wrote above, we should mention the foreign faces/dress in this article, but in a way that respects [1] section NPOV/balance, [2] overall article NPOV/balance. Please look at Ajanta Caves article in the following sources, if you want examples of relative emphasis and balance: Encyclopedia of Sacred Places, Encyclopedia of Ancient Asian Civilizations, and the Encyclopedia of Buddhism. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 18:45, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
पाटलिपुत्र: On which page does Brancaccio highlight / box those faces? I have the hardcopy of her book on my desk and I see Figures 110-113 etc, but I don't see her boxing a few faces out of many, like the way you are doing. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 16:49, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
References
@ Ms Sarah Welch: I am really reluctant to start a new argument.... but your blanket removal of high quality referenced material [9] by justifying that "this is controversial" doesn't seem to be the way things are normally done on Wikipedia. The short paragraph was about the origins of the vihara-with-shrine design which was adopted in Ajanta from around 470 CE, from renowned scholar Kurt Behrendt [10], Associate Curator of South Asian Art at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, in Handbook of Oriental Studies, BRILL, 2004, p.170 p.171. If you think it is controversial, the responsibility in on you to bring alternative claims from reputable sources. You cannot just delete reputable sources because you do not like what they are saying. In terms of relevance of the information, I believe it is highly relevant (as it is on many article on Wikipedia) to have information about origins and influences. Ajanta was not created in a bubble, it was influenced by centuries of history, and pre-existing architecture and art, so it is totally legitimate and important to provide information about it. पाटलिपुत्र ( talk) 10:19, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
This sentence in the introduction seems very misleading and gives a strange account of Buddhist art, although multiple references have been attached to it:
"The caves also present paintings depicting the past lives and rebirths of the Buddha, pictorial tales from Aryasura's Jatakamala, as well as rock-cut sculptures of Buddhist deities in vogue between the 2nd century BCE and 5th century CE.[9][11][12]"
1) The earliest caves (30/12) indeed date from the 2nd century-1st century BCE, but they are Hinayana and don't have pictorial illustrations or "sculptures of Buddhist deities", only some architectural designs (chaitya-type doors, geometric decorative bands).
2) The earliest paintings, those remaining in Cave 10 are possibly from the 1st century BCE and are few and probably Jataka-related.
3) As far as I know, the vast majority of paintings (99%?) and all the "sculptures of Buddhist deities" date to the end of the 5th century CE.
Therefore the above sentence is stretching the facts tremendously.... A more exact phrasing could be:
"The caves also present Buddhist architectural designs from the 2nd/1st century BCE, some early paintings from the 1st century BCE, and full-blown depictions of the past lives and rebirths of the Buddha, pictorial tales from Aryasura's Jatakamala, as well as rock-cut sculptures of Buddhist deities in vogue in 5th century CE.[9][11][12]"
Any comments? पाटलिपुत्र ( talk) 11:22, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Minor spats apart, I'd just like to say how great it is to see the large amount of improvemments being done to a whole range of articles on ancient Indian monuments over recent months! These have been much too weak for years and years, and get good views. Well done everybody, which essentially means "both"! Johnbod ( talk) 20:44, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
User:Ms Sarah Welch is removing the attached photograph (1.) of an original frescoe depicting foreigners in Ajanta Cave 17 on the ground that "we need to stick to what sources state and present, the source is showing the previous image, no OR please" [11]. This is completely untrue and very misinformed, as the source in question (Pia Brancaccio) is showing the exact same foreigners (and a few more) in a photographic reproduction of the same portion of the frescoe ( Direct link to the image in "The Buddhist Caves",Pia Brancaccio, p.305), and the frescoe itself is described in the body of her book ( p.81).
"The previous image" User:Ms Sarah Welch reverted to (2.), is not at all the photograph showed by the source: it is a rather poor and unfaithful 19th century painting, which is quite removed from the original frescoe (and honestly rather bad taste, here attached). There is really no reason to stick to that painting, now that we have an exact, sourced, photograph of the original (above 1.). पाटलिपुत्र ( talk) 18:00, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
पाटलिपुत्र: Why is this due? Leave aside the quality of your sources, please note we can add zillion histories, with similar or better sources, about dynasties / people / culture / events nearby from south India, from their west, their east, central or north. We can include Rome history and developments in China too.... but all this is undue. I am concerned that your edits show a pattern of this Persian / Hun / northwest Indian subcontinent / etc POV in this article and others. Please explain how is this due and relevant to this article, and are you suggesting we add 10,000+ words on 1st century BCE through 5th century CE history into this article? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 19:34, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
पाटलिपुत्र: You are free to believe in whatever wisdom / prejudice / opinion you wish, but allow me ignore you per WP:FORUM. Please do not do OR:Synthesis in this and other wikipedia articles. For example, this edit is again WP:Synthesis. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:17, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
पाटलिपुत्र: You quote me out of the context. In the two links you give, Spink is not saying Hunas did something to Ajanta Caves. Read this whole thread again. Then Spink again. Ask yourself, even in the overall history of the era context, does Spink only mention Hunas? Your edit only added Hunas-related stuff, that is not NPOV and implies the opinion you have (but Spink doesn't). In reality, Spinks mentions Konkan, Kalacuri, Bombay region, Magadha, etc. and all these together are mentioned far more than the Hunas. That is what I tried to explain with my opening statement... why 'only Hunas / foreigners"? is it due? should we add all sorts of 1st century BCE through 5th century CE history into this article? The article is already big. Adding an NPOV version of overall history of South Asia and Central Asia will greatly enlarge the article, and create WP:COATRACK issues. I therefore oppose it. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:59, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
The term "Hinayana" (i.e. Theravada) is inappropriate.
I know it has been widely used by many authors specially for some of Ajanta caves. Still. an inappropriate term. The concept of aniconism as a defining attribute of a faith tradition seems to be a western import. Malaiya ( talk) 00:38, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
{{geodata-check}}
The following coordinate fixes are needed for
— 49.14.168.100 ( talk) 15:54, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
That sentence have an error. There was no corn in India before the discovery of America. אביהו ( talk) 07:20, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
Fixed "Corn" doesn't necessarily imply
maize (
[18]). But I've changed it to "grain" to avoid the possibility of confusion.
Dave.Dunford (
talk) 08:09, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
No connection between the title of the section and it's content. Content should be moved to Paintings section. אביהו ( talk) 13:27, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
I added... The number of 30 caves may have been a symbolic reference to the lunar cycle of 29.53 days. 2603:3020:1A16:3E00:5BF:478D:A58E:C4BC ( talk) 15:50, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
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The paintings in the Ajanta caves are often mistakenly referred to as frescoes. A fresco refers to the application of colours to moist lime plaster. At Ajanta, the paintings were done on dry wall.
http://www.tourismofindia.com/hiwhh/ajantacaves.htm
- Not according to the article at present, which says they are not frescoes & then describes exactly a fresco technique. Johnbod 14:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is Ajanta "more properly" Ajujnthi? Is this a more Sanskritic form? In the modern vernaculars, at least, it is अजंता or ajantā. QuartierLatin 1968 19:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Ajințhā is the name of the village nearby that has lent its name to the caves. The British could not pronounce it correctly, and they started calling it Ajanta. From the above discussion, both "Ajantha" (with h) and "Ajujnthi" are incorrect. In some south Indian languages t of Sanskrit or Hindi becomes th. In fact, Ajanta or Ajintha are neither Hindi nor Sanskrit! Ajanta is what the British started writing in literature and reports on the subject, and Ajintha is what the local inhabitants of the region still call the caves in Marathi language! Rajesh Kumar Singh ( talk) 18:59, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
The page points here: 20°32′01″N, 75°44′59″E The caves are actually here: 20°31'54"N 75°44'21"E
The difference is small, but if you don't know what you are looking for you would never get to the caves from the village indicated.
I am sorry but I disagree with whom ever wrote the comment above. If you use Google map to look for the caves you will see that they are located on a curved mountain ridge about two miles north-west of those coordinate. --Mirrordor 05:48, 15 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mirrordor ( talk • contribs)
The article Hoysala architecture is an example of a properly sourced article per WP:V and could serve as a good model for this one. Each sentence in Hoysala architecture was written by an editor and all information there is referenced so the reader can see for him/her self the information in the original source and whether the Wikipedia editor has interpreted it correctly or not. Sincerely, Mattisse 15:31, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
The entire Period of the Caves section of this article was lifted directly from Exotic India Art. Because this represents a copyright violation, I have removed the offending text. Kindest regards, AlphaEta T / C 15:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
{{geodata-check}}
The coordinates need the following fixes: remove minus before longitude - location is in Cuba, not india!
-- 67.164.156.103 ( talk) 22:24, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
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File:Ajanta (63).jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests August 2011
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
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By [1], do you mean that the stuff removed (most of the article) is a WP:COPYVIO? It is not clear that it is WP:OR, indeed this doesn't look likely. If so, can you add a note at the talk, saying which work etc. Thanks. Johnbod ( talk) 14:02, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
As brutal as it maybe doing this kind of "article surgery", I think it was a necessary decision to start building a more generalised article that is better for readers and complies with Wikipedia's policy and style. That said, if you have a reasonable counter-argument, then feel free to revert me! SFB 14:14, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Copied from User talk:Sillyfolkboy & my talk Johnbod ( talk) 15:00, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Hi, in 2005 I wrote a short intro and some stuff on Caves 1 and 2 leaving the rest for others. But I am surprised that even after 7 years of gap, the page on Ajanta caves has grown only little. Now, when I have some time, I wish to complete the page bit by bit in a month or two. I shall try to write briefly on all the caves. Every day, I shall be adding or deleting things, because I am able to notice many incorrect or outdated information here. As my book on Ajanta (An Introduction the Ajanta Caves http://books.google.co.in/books?id=CxogemPuCgIC&lpg=PR9&dq=ajanta%20caves%20singh&pg=PR1#v=onepage&q=ajanta%20caves%20singh&f=false) may show, there is considerable new knowledge on the subject brought forth by noted subject experts, e.g. Dieter Schlingloff, Monika Zin, Hans Bakker, Walter Spink, the present contributor, etc. Scholars collectively agree that a lot of contents in older literature is now invalid. So, please do not mind if I shall be deleting a lot of that stuff placed by some wikipedia users. Editors are free to revert the content back if my deletions/additions are found unreasonable or unwarranted. And, yes, I shall be mindful of adding citations (but in that case, almost every sentence may require one, because the above-named consortium of scholars, including the present contributor, strongly disagree with a lot of published research older than, say, three to four decades!) Wikipedia editors must decide whether they want older ideas or the current ones! Rajesh Kumar Singh ( talk) 19:24, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Few things I may mention. 1) My English is not good. So, kindly help me there by necessary editing. My grammar is terrible. I hire language editors before my things go to the press. 2) As I said, it is such a topic where, indeed, every subject of ancient India where the writers must be extremely careful while writing. I follow a self-imposed discipline: write what is based on hard evidence, no personal opinions or views; at the same time do NOT let earlier, outdated, incorrect information pollute the current reader's mind. Archaeological Survey of India's account of Ajanta caves are ancient, outdated. None of the Ajanta scholars any more ascribe to the official view. There is a brain drain in ASI. So, I would be wary of citing the ASI. Sadly, even UNESCO has done little about to update their records on Ajanta's history (they depend on the ASI's account, and I don't know if anyone is there reading the current research). I favour Spink's views. But other writers have criticized his views. So, the best things should be to cite Spink where he is indisputably correct, and not to cite him, where his views have been contested. I deleted some sentences attributed to Spink because 1)the portion deleted is now a common knowledge and no individual can be credited for that piece of wisdom. 2) Because, even Spink is wrong many a times, e.g. he still calls the caves by Hinayana and Mahauyana phases---something the circle of Buddhologists working on Ajanta (e.g. Dhavalikar, Schopen, Schlingloff, Zin, etc.) can't stand, including me! Please, hold on until Jan. Let me complete. Then please proceed with any surgery you like. In the end, I shall be placing the citations, as I normally do.:) Rajesh Kumar Singh ( talk) 08:22, 5 December 2012 (UTC) P.S. I read Johnbod's talk again, and on second reading, I feel that I have created an adverse impression in his mind by whatever things I wrote or whatever changes I did. I was only thinking of coming to the service of common good by sharing whatever little that I know about the subject. But, now I would not proceed ahead, unless being invited to do so. Kindly leaf through my book placed first in the external link. If you want any content quality of that kind, kindly write me back, or else I am signing off from wikipedia forever.:) Rajesh Kumar Singh ( talk) 08:40, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi John. Thanks. NONE of the fifth century caves was ever fully completed (Spink and Singh, chapters on caves 1, 2, 16, and 17). MOST of the fifth century caves were NEVER dedicated or put to worship. In fact, only a couple of shrines were hurriedly dedicated, even before the cave's completion, and worship started. But, even such worship activities were marred by ongoing work on pillars, paintings, sculptures, etc... And, if this chaotic scene inside the caves (the sounds of hammers and chisels) were not enough, the Vakataka empire collapsed after the death of Harisena. The site was abruptly abandoned, and all concerned fled from the region. Thus, to make it brief---the site was never 'used as a college' or something. These are wild assumptions made by many Ajanta writers in the past without the support of any evidence. That is why I earlier deleted the whole of the first paragraph. I can explain every single word that I would be deleting or adding. Kindly feel free to question.:) Rajesh Kumar Singh ( talk) 09:59, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
Is there a way to get the removed portions back again so that I can see that source. Literary source? There is NO piece of ancient literary source referring even remotely to Ajanta (except Xuanzang who never visited the place, and said the roaring of the elephants ((cave 16 elephants)) could be heard far and wide). John, please... I request you with folded hands to research properly before making such a point. May I give you the emails of six noted Ajanta experts (Spink, Schlingloff, Monika Zin, Hans Bakker, Dhavalikar, and Jamkhedkar), and request you put the question to them; if any one can endorse your point, or the point that Ajanta was envisaged or used as a college, I shall accept my ignorance, and ask for forgiveness.) Rajesh Kumar Singh ( talk) 16:07, 6 December 2012 (UTC) Post script: I better leave this article as is. It is not possible to go ahead when you are bringing in the examples of western cathedrals to make a point on ajanta. Kindly revert back the changes I have made so far (as I am not familiar with wikipedia tools that allows an author to reverse the changes.). Rajesh Kumar Singh ( talk) 16:37, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. I read the deleted stuff again. Yes, that whole paragraph indeed should be deleted, as the information it provides is outright INCORRECT. If you do not trust me send that paragraph, please, to any one of the above-named living ajanta experts. And--if I may repeat---if any one of them can endorse that paragraph to be factual, I shall ask for your forgiveness. No John. Sorry, I cannot go on. You are making an outlandish point, untenable objections, and asking me to place things to the detail that should not go here in a article of this kind meant for general audience. With best. Rajesh Kumar Singh ( talk) 06:35, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
There is a difference between inquiry and objection. With utmost reluctance I must say that your approach as an editor is not helpful. Without adequate knowledge on the subject you are making objections to factual information, and supporting in favor of non-factual information to be included and retained here. It would scare away serious contributors. I have no intention to continue any more, and have no patience to fill the pages here rather than in the main article! Rajesh Kumar Singh ( talk) 16:41, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
Quote: The caves include paintings and sculptures described by the government Archaeological Survey of India as "the finest surviving examples of Indian art, particularly painting'
How can it be 'Indian' art? India is a nation that commenced in 1947. To use an allegory, if the site had been situated in current day Pakistan, would it be mentioned as finest example of Pakistani art? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
117.214.18.22 (
talk) 17:42, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Good Question to think indeed. MediaJet talk 04:34, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
Many of the citations are to "Spink (2006)". Spink has quite a few publications on Ajanta (see http://www.walterspink.com/history). Which one is it? Malaiya ( talk)
It is rather extensive:
http://www.ijcs.uaic.ro/public/IJCS-13-17-Singh.pdf
©Geni ( talk) 00:08, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
@ पाटलिपुत्र: The article has too many images and galleries, making the article difficult to follow and a photo album-like. We need to consider a major roll back per MOS:IMAGES and MOS, though you clearly have put a lot of hard work. FWIW, I like the quality of your images, and perhaps we should make a page on wikimedia and link it here. That would productively reuse the good work you have put in, and make those images available to the interested readers. @ Joshua Jonathan:, @ JimRenge:, @ Farang Rak Tham:, others: Thoughts? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 18:51, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
(ps): Note that too many images make an article difficult to access/read on mobile devices, and for readers with access challenges (braille readers etc). Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 18:55, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
A separate page, Ajanta Caves paintings would surely be a good idea. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 03:57, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
That is not how BRD works. Anyone interested can still view your version by clicking this. Repeating and showcasing images is problematic, and not consistent with content guidelines. I am fine with proposals above, but no one is saying lets showcase images. The galaxy of images you added generally do not contribute to understanding. We need to identify and include those that do. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 15:19, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Some suggestions, largely guided by comments of RexxS above:
Comments welcome, Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 16:17, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
@ Johnbod:, others: Should the painting section be separate, or merged into each cave discussion? Each style has its advantages. A separate section allows us to discuss and compare the paintings, their evolution, etc. Merging it has the advantage of clearer and comprehensive discussion of each cave. We should pick one style, and avoid repetition. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 03:39, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Johnbod: You touch upon some valid concerns, and may be mixing up edits by पाटलिपुत्र and I (and other editors post-2015). I too am concerned with the article size, the ability to download it by mobile users with limited bandwidth or non-smartphone devices. This will get worse if we summarize each cave then add 4 images per cave because that will make this article balloon. The paintings are important, but by no means do they overwhelm everything else. These were religious structures: worship halls and monasteries. This in itself has significance given their 2nd century BCE to 5th century CE dating and their history. The frieze narratives such as those from the Jataka tales are important for many reasons. There is more. But we can't convert this article into a book! It is supposed to be an encyclopedic summary... a balance between being a comprehensive resource and a good summary. In my review, some sections have improved since "your final 2015 version", others not at all. It has our attention now, along with some other very seasoned editors who have commented above / edited recently. Let us try to nudge this article with improvements. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 19:15, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Put the book in "references" and just have a short title and the page number in the individual cite. 02:17, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
पाटलिपुत्र: Why rely on the 125+ year old Fergusson source (even if its copyright has expired)? Why not more recent publications such as those by Cohen, Spink, etc? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 15:04, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
@ Johnbod: would you study the two images from Albert Hall Museum we have on commons, 1 and 2, please. They are neither originals nor enhanced photos, from what I remember from my visits to Ajanta and the photos I have in my own archive library. Since you too have been there, do these photos look like faithful copy of what you saw? To me, they look like some recent artist's paintings inspired by two paintings in Ajanta. One of them has been added to this article AGF. It would be nice if they indeed clear PD-Art and we could use them, but can we? are we okay on copyright? पाटलिपुत्र: your thoughts? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 20:18, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
पाटलिपुत्र: we have too many images and splitting sections is not improving the article! As Johnbod and others noted, we need to keep article size and the reader in mind. We don't need separate section for every cave, nor for 6U, 6L, 9A, 9B etc etc such as one with this edit. The structure and images we choose is not for illustration nor to show off (not that this is your intent, but it is the result). Our choices should be based on what helps understand the subject (see RexxS suggestions). There is little point in another standing or sitting Buddha in every section, nor another image of another cave interior. We should discuss, invite comments and reach a consensus. I suggest we revisit the ideas of other editors, see above, about possibly splitting the article. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 17:20, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
पाटलिपुत्र: The foreigner scenes as a % of all scenes or murals are very few. We need to summarize this, but overstating the foreigner section creates an NPOV and undue/balance issues. Further: [1] the scholarly dispute about them need to be woven in and explained together to avoid POV pushing or confusing the reader, not listed in separate subsections, per wikipedia content guidelines; [2] we must not use wikipedia voice, but attribute because much of that is WP:Primary. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 13:19, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
References
Sorry, I feel you are missing the point. Let me make it again... this is an article on Ajanta Caves. It is not about Speculations and Disagreements about foreigners in Ajanta Caves, nor about Speculations and Disagreements about Natives in Ajanta Caves, nor about Ajanta Caves: did South Asians have a stereotypical look in ancient times, etc. Too much of foreigners / natives is undue content and comes across as POV-pushing, even if it can be supported with eccentric sources, or 100 or 50 years old sources, or even new sources. The article has numerous sections already. Overloading one section, expanding it much, presenting zillion images and making the reader wade through a large essay discussing disputed ethnicity of 1% of 5% of faces in Ajanta artwork is not NPOV. If you sense that Ajanta-related WP:RS does not discuss Jataka tales, or Buddhism, or South Asians, or etc in detail then you are mistaken. If we want to discuss ethnicity, discuss the 95-99% of the faces in the artwork, citing RS. As I wrote above, we should mention the foreign faces/dress in this article, but in a way that respects [1] section NPOV/balance, [2] overall article NPOV/balance. Please look at Ajanta Caves article in the following sources, if you want examples of relative emphasis and balance: Encyclopedia of Sacred Places, Encyclopedia of Ancient Asian Civilizations, and the Encyclopedia of Buddhism. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 18:45, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
पाटलिपुत्र: On which page does Brancaccio highlight / box those faces? I have the hardcopy of her book on my desk and I see Figures 110-113 etc, but I don't see her boxing a few faces out of many, like the way you are doing. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 16:49, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
References
@ Ms Sarah Welch: I am really reluctant to start a new argument.... but your blanket removal of high quality referenced material [9] by justifying that "this is controversial" doesn't seem to be the way things are normally done on Wikipedia. The short paragraph was about the origins of the vihara-with-shrine design which was adopted in Ajanta from around 470 CE, from renowned scholar Kurt Behrendt [10], Associate Curator of South Asian Art at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, in Handbook of Oriental Studies, BRILL, 2004, p.170 p.171. If you think it is controversial, the responsibility in on you to bring alternative claims from reputable sources. You cannot just delete reputable sources because you do not like what they are saying. In terms of relevance of the information, I believe it is highly relevant (as it is on many article on Wikipedia) to have information about origins and influences. Ajanta was not created in a bubble, it was influenced by centuries of history, and pre-existing architecture and art, so it is totally legitimate and important to provide information about it. पाटलिपुत्र ( talk) 10:19, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
This sentence in the introduction seems very misleading and gives a strange account of Buddhist art, although multiple references have been attached to it:
"The caves also present paintings depicting the past lives and rebirths of the Buddha, pictorial tales from Aryasura's Jatakamala, as well as rock-cut sculptures of Buddhist deities in vogue between the 2nd century BCE and 5th century CE.[9][11][12]"
1) The earliest caves (30/12) indeed date from the 2nd century-1st century BCE, but they are Hinayana and don't have pictorial illustrations or "sculptures of Buddhist deities", only some architectural designs (chaitya-type doors, geometric decorative bands).
2) The earliest paintings, those remaining in Cave 10 are possibly from the 1st century BCE and are few and probably Jataka-related.
3) As far as I know, the vast majority of paintings (99%?) and all the "sculptures of Buddhist deities" date to the end of the 5th century CE.
Therefore the above sentence is stretching the facts tremendously.... A more exact phrasing could be:
"The caves also present Buddhist architectural designs from the 2nd/1st century BCE, some early paintings from the 1st century BCE, and full-blown depictions of the past lives and rebirths of the Buddha, pictorial tales from Aryasura's Jatakamala, as well as rock-cut sculptures of Buddhist deities in vogue in 5th century CE.[9][11][12]"
Any comments? पाटलिपुत्र ( talk) 11:22, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Minor spats apart, I'd just like to say how great it is to see the large amount of improvemments being done to a whole range of articles on ancient Indian monuments over recent months! These have been much too weak for years and years, and get good views. Well done everybody, which essentially means "both"! Johnbod ( talk) 20:44, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
User:Ms Sarah Welch is removing the attached photograph (1.) of an original frescoe depicting foreigners in Ajanta Cave 17 on the ground that "we need to stick to what sources state and present, the source is showing the previous image, no OR please" [11]. This is completely untrue and very misinformed, as the source in question (Pia Brancaccio) is showing the exact same foreigners (and a few more) in a photographic reproduction of the same portion of the frescoe ( Direct link to the image in "The Buddhist Caves",Pia Brancaccio, p.305), and the frescoe itself is described in the body of her book ( p.81).
"The previous image" User:Ms Sarah Welch reverted to (2.), is not at all the photograph showed by the source: it is a rather poor and unfaithful 19th century painting, which is quite removed from the original frescoe (and honestly rather bad taste, here attached). There is really no reason to stick to that painting, now that we have an exact, sourced, photograph of the original (above 1.). पाटलिपुत्र ( talk) 18:00, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
पाटलिपुत्र: Why is this due? Leave aside the quality of your sources, please note we can add zillion histories, with similar or better sources, about dynasties / people / culture / events nearby from south India, from their west, their east, central or north. We can include Rome history and developments in China too.... but all this is undue. I am concerned that your edits show a pattern of this Persian / Hun / northwest Indian subcontinent / etc POV in this article and others. Please explain how is this due and relevant to this article, and are you suggesting we add 10,000+ words on 1st century BCE through 5th century CE history into this article? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 19:34, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
पाटलिपुत्र: You are free to believe in whatever wisdom / prejudice / opinion you wish, but allow me ignore you per WP:FORUM. Please do not do OR:Synthesis in this and other wikipedia articles. For example, this edit is again WP:Synthesis. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:17, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
पाटलिपुत्र: You quote me out of the context. In the two links you give, Spink is not saying Hunas did something to Ajanta Caves. Read this whole thread again. Then Spink again. Ask yourself, even in the overall history of the era context, does Spink only mention Hunas? Your edit only added Hunas-related stuff, that is not NPOV and implies the opinion you have (but Spink doesn't). In reality, Spinks mentions Konkan, Kalacuri, Bombay region, Magadha, etc. and all these together are mentioned far more than the Hunas. That is what I tried to explain with my opening statement... why 'only Hunas / foreigners"? is it due? should we add all sorts of 1st century BCE through 5th century CE history into this article? The article is already big. Adding an NPOV version of overall history of South Asia and Central Asia will greatly enlarge the article, and create WP:COATRACK issues. I therefore oppose it. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:59, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
The term "Hinayana" (i.e. Theravada) is inappropriate.
I know it has been widely used by many authors specially for some of Ajanta caves. Still. an inappropriate term. The concept of aniconism as a defining attribute of a faith tradition seems to be a western import. Malaiya ( talk) 00:38, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
{{geodata-check}}
The following coordinate fixes are needed for
— 49.14.168.100 ( talk) 15:54, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
That sentence have an error. There was no corn in India before the discovery of America. אביהו ( talk) 07:20, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
Fixed "Corn" doesn't necessarily imply
maize (
[18]). But I've changed it to "grain" to avoid the possibility of confusion.
Dave.Dunford (
talk) 08:09, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
No connection between the title of the section and it's content. Content should be moved to Paintings section. אביהו ( talk) 13:27, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
I added... The number of 30 caves may have been a symbolic reference to the lunar cycle of 29.53 days. 2603:3020:1A16:3E00:5BF:478D:A58E:C4BC ( talk) 15:50, 10 January 2022 (UTC)