== What consummated really means ==amena
tr.v. con·sum·mat·ed, con·sum·mat·ing, con·sum·mates
1. 1. To bring to completion or fruition; conclude: consummate a business transaction. 2. To realize or achieve; fulfill: a dream that was finally consummated with the publication of her first book. 2. 1. To complete (a marriage) with the first act of sexual intercourse after the ceremony. 2. To fulfill (a sexual desire or attraction) especially by intercourse.
These are two possible meaning for the word consummated. Almost everyone thinks it's about sex. Consumated can aslo mean complete. Remember in early days of Arabia. A women was a tool. If a family got a daugther when they wanted a son they could bury her alive but doing that for a son was considered murder. Alot of people the Prohpet(PBUH) married were widowers who lost their husbands mostly from the battles. He married alot of them but he didn't have sex with all of them. Frankly this issue with Aisha is over blown by Anti-Islamists who look for reasons to discredit Islam.
a Sugestion:
no more of the honey. For this, the Prophet is addresed in a revelation with the rethorical question "why do you prohibit yourself" and answered in the same verse with "it is to please your wives, whatever had been made lawful by Allah was his to eat". Later (Qur'an 66:1). The viwes are then rebuked rebuked and warned in the folowing verses as "your hearts are inclined (to oppose him)"
Of course, it needs copyeditiong.
I have rewritten Striver's version. The article still needs some work. It's now quite long, and there's too much verbatim quoting of hadith. I hope that Striver will accept my rewrite as a faithful representation of the Shia viewpoint, even if not as long and detailed as his. Zora 23:23, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Thx for you time. May i propose to make a second version of the diffrent subjects att the end of the article where i can add all the details i want? -- Striver 23:34, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Thx for the tips, ill try to get there when i feel i have done an acurate and comprehensive work on representing the Shia view on Aisha in this article. I work that way, on thing in depht, then the next.
About this article. Why is it a problem in having realy big articles? I dont get the point of restrictiong it. If its about readability, then why not have a short and then a detailet version of the same topic?
As it is i realy feel that i dont get to add all the hadith that show why we argue as we do.
In my oppinion ther is a great deal to tell to show what she felt and why she felt so in regards to manny diffrent people. For example Fatimah, Ali, Abu Bakr, Umar and so on...
As you can gues, ther are several persons and several diffrent ocasions (spellin?).
Whe Shia dont have a simplistic view of the people, that is "they alla loved eachothered and came along as great friends", no, we see theme more like in a soap oprah version where evreybody hade difrent views and angles on evereybody else, and in my oppinion its important to cover all importan persons that Aisha interacted with and how she did that to give a good picture of her aligeances. Its almost imposible to understand her psycology and why she rebeld agains Ali without having a simpistic view if we arent suposed to thuroughly go thruogh the background.
My spelling suck big time. I know. I dont have Word :(
Thx, and peace. -- Striver 03:25, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Of course its not, but would'nt you agree that its within the NPOV to acurratlý describe the Shia stance on the topic and also why we belive as we do and what our arguments are? -- Striver 03:07, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Whell, ther is no problem having a christan saying his mind as long as he is stating that it is the cristian view. Anyway, i dont get the problem since i only quote Sunni sources.
I mean, c'mon, why is the Sunni version supposed to be the correct one?
Why is are the Shia not equally entiteled to give the Shia version?
Sunni vesion = evereybody are best friends. Shia version = they loved some and hated som people.
Whats whrong whith telling both sides?
Im not saying i want to take over the artikel, no at all. I just want to tell my version. Anybody else are welcomed to tell theirs.
-- Striver 03:31, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Where do i see how big the article is right now? -- Striver 16:41, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This article is supposd to be about Aisha, yet is reads like a venomous debate between Shia and Sunni. Everytime some thing is mentioned about Aisha, there is another para nitpicking it. Every single historical figure has controversy surrounding it. But when writing about it one writes about facts. Here, the venom especially from the shiite side makes the article read like one of those "Opposing viewpoint" series essay. The article doesn't seem to inform about Aisha as much as it wholly bashes her character and the controversies surrounding this historic feminist and leader of Muslims. There should be only one section labelled "Controversies surrounding Aisha" thats it. It would give it more cohorence, NPOV and not read like a venom laden garbage that it currently reads like. IMO, the sunni historians read more like modern day secular western historians, where the purpose is pursuit of the truth rather than maligning a personality for one's favourite side and beleif system.
omerlives Omerlives 07:21, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Im sorry OneGuy, but i have told several times, im quoting history books and more ore less established facts. You have not argued even one time with me on the validity of ANNY topic, only forwarded your opinion that im an "apologetic biased shia POV pusher". Get real and argue the topic, prove me wrong, tell me that Ali did NOT opposed Abu Bakr instead of raision votes for delition. Bukhari says that Umar said that Ali DID oppose Abu Bakr, so ´who are you to disagree? What does it matter if 90% of the Muslims dont want to aknowlege facts stated in their own books? Here we state facts, not Sunni POV, and, for example, Bukhari Says Ali DID oppose Abu Bakr.
Start seing the diffrens betwen Sunni POV and what Sunni books says.
And by the way, i usualy dont say "sunni says" or "muslim says", only "bukhari says" or "history of tabari says"
-- Striver 21:46, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Omerlives, its not my intent to bash umm ul-momeenin Aishas character, rather its to stop the sunni sides "Aisha is best" aproch. And i use all Sunni sources to show facts about her, i dont give any single oppininon. An strangly some people, like OneGuy are critizing me for my efforts to include establishd historical facts, in for example, the article about Mohammed.
I mean, c'mon, since when is it bias to portray established facts? Im genuinly hurt by the fact that my efforts to include established, non-disputed facts from sunni sources are dissmised as "biased shia apologetic POV". *sight*
I mean, since when is "man kuntu mawla, alion mawla" a Shia POV? FFS, that makes me so mad and makes me feels poorly treated. So what that the Sunni OPINION is that mawla means friens, is that an excues to exlude that FACT that he said so? Since when do Sunni OPINIONS ´have bigger levereage that FACTS?
Like the fact that Aisha recruited Hafsa and two other wives to harras the Prophet, somthing that made the Prophet leave them for one month and at the end, for the SECOND time, made him think on terminating the marriage to Aisha. Even Umar admits it and gives some very heavy words to Hafsa for it, but still sunnis rather forget the whole thing, only because it remninds them to the fact that Aisha was not an angel. Anyway, the honny episode is now included, no thanx to the Sunni contrubutes. I mean, all of Surah of "the prohibition" is due to this incident, but still Sunnis whant it to be forgoten. I glad that OneGuy isnt here as well, otherwise he would have dissmised the whole honny episode as well as "Biased irrelevant shia apologetic POV. :(
And i havent even started talking about why she is called "Humayra". "The red lady". Use your imagination. Or Aisha hand her fatwa on nursing male adults. *sight* THAT would make Sunnis go berzerk if i started showing what Aisha realy said about that.
Fact: Aisha hated Ali, Fatimah, and Hasan (pbut). ITS FACT. Its all over sunni books. Sunnis dont want to aknowledge that, so instead of being facts, its "biased Shia POV".
Let me aske one thing: If one day, the "Flat Earth Society" would make 85% of the world to belive that the earht is flat, would the FACT that the earth is round to become "irrelevant, biased apologetic Ruond-Earther POV"?
Im talking ESTABLISHED FACTS in SUNNI BOOKS!
Geting tired of this. Only cause Sunnis dont like it, dosnt make it POV! Its SUNNI POV in that case, NOT SHIA POV!
-- Striver 11:50, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
FACT FACT FACT FACT! stop labelling everything about your selective POV as fact. Unfortunately I donot have the time being a superbusy undergrad to start and correcting your article. My god! Books by most Western Historians read so much more better as one sees that they have made an HONEST attempt to present an NPOV. Just consider what if Ali by any happenstance was a controversial figure (which he too is) and say Sunnis had angst against him (which they dont) the way Shias do about virtually every other muslim figure save Ali's family. There could be produced a gazilion hadiths and rawayat's about Ali's incompetence, failure, impotence and what not. Just like any figure against whom any community has decided a negative mindset from the beginning. If you dont beleive it, ask any Chritian fundie about Mohammad and let im give you a course bout the vile Muhammad based on FACTS FACTS FACTS from sunni shia hadith quran and what not sources. Yet that article would NOT be balanced, neutral, honest by any chance even if countered in the second para by sunni writers. Read for example the acount on MOhammad by M. Hart in his book THE 100 in which he declares mohamad the most influential person and goes neither in overt sycophancy nor his personal POV. THAT is the honest attempt and that's the way an encyclopedia should read.
This is an encyclopedia, and try to educate people with honesty in your heart and that means honesty about all, the likes of Salman Rushdie, Hassan bin Sabah, Yazeed, Ali, Muawiyah, Khomeni,Bin Hanifa et al. omerlives Omerlives 03:41, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It wasnt khwarij rebels that surounded Uthman, they khwarij group did come into existense util the forced arbitration of Ali and Muaviya.
Its in both Sunni and Shia sources that Hasan and Husain defended Uthman live, not only Shia sources.
-- Striver 17:40, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
dear u can write it is arabic name as Jung a Jamal ,if i am not wrong.
There is a non-NPOV in the article, first it says that tabari was an "early" chronicler (what an ingnorance!), second it clearly makes a logical mistake : the tilte says aicha married when she was 9, and in the text it says 6!!!! if the word marriage doesn't suits you, change it! the reader has to know that Aicha ACCEPTED to marry when she was six. I will change all the non-NPOV.-- Agurzil 08:25, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Agurzil claims that hadith says that Aisha lived with Muhammad when she was 6. That's not what the hadith says:
I think we should add a new section called "the implication of Aicha's marriage in sharia", for example, a girl can be married at the age of 9 in Iran.-- Agurzil 17:21, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
First of all, please, let's not start calling each other too many strange names. (POV pusher and such...). Another thing is that the hadiths that you just deleted, was not all from Bukari and all of them was not narrated by Aisha. As a matter of fact two of them was not...
1) Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310: 'Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.
2) Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
I just added these two again. Stereotek 19:39, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
All the hadith on Aisha's age include Urwa in the chain of narration? That surprise me! Anyway, out of interest, could you please mention your source for that information?
Another ting is that you changed Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 from Narrated Ursa to Narrated 'Urwa. I find it a bit hard to track down a source that support that specific change. Maybe you could mention yours? Stereotek 09:19, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I removed the bit re the age of marriage in Iran -- that's irrelevant to Aisha. I also rewrote much of what Striver contributed. I hope the article flows more smoothly now. Zora 19:17, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Legal age for brides lifted to 13
24jun02
IRAN'S arbitrating body has approved a reformist law increasing the minimum marriage age from 9 to 13 for girls and from 14 to 15 for boys. The new law stipulates that marriage of girls under 13 and boys under 15 will require court permission, the government-run daily Iran has reported. It gave no further details.
The law's approval is seen as a victory for Iran's reformists, who have sought to promote women's rights. The elected legislature passed a similar Bill in August 2000, but the hard-line Guardian Council rejected it as contradicting Islamic sharia law. Now, the Expediency Council, which arbitrates between parliament and the Guardian Council, has passed the measure into law. Officials were unavailable for comment. "This is yet another fulfillment of promises of reformists, especially female lawmakers, who had promised to protect women's rights," said lawmaker Fatemah Khatami. "Still, we have a long way to go to provide adequate legal protection for women." [3]
OneGuy 19:31, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Some anon editor with a strong attitude is trying to revive the "Muhammad is a pedophile" controversy. He seems to be intent on removing one portion of a sentence in which it is noted that some Muslim commentators insist that Aisha was post-pubescent at nine. I was the one who wrote that; I was the one who read exactly that defense on several Islamic web pages. I recall some wording like "girls grow up faster in the desert". Now I think this would be a symptom of a severe hormone disorder myself, and thus highly unlikely, but I was just reporting what I read.
I believe that this could possibly be a resurgence of Pename -- wasn't he banned for a year? I don't understand why this IP is able to post. Zora 08:20, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
this happened in the 7th century, man. You were not there. We only even know about it through 'muslim sources'. It's very simple. The sources should be listed, it should be put into the proper 7th century Arabian context (i.e. nobody even raised an eyebrow, at the time!), and usual interpretations (she was post-pubescent etc.) should be given. We are not discussing whether she was indeed post-pubescent, this would be futile. We are just citing authorities on the subject. OneGuy, the removal of the "post-pubescent" passage is not strictly vandalism. Especially since "usual response" seems a bit weasly. But if it is indeed the usual response, it should of course be here, and I'll help putting it back. dab (ᛏ) 09:06, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
fine. can we also do some actual, unbiased research on it? I would be interested about the history of this in islamic writing. I.e. was it even seen as an issue, were there disputes about the puberty thing, and who are the authors who advanced either view? "usual response" somehow just isn't good enough.
dab
(ᛏ) 09:38, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It would be a monumental task to track down the history of this controversy. My suspicion is that it's fairly recent. It's reminiscent of the 1980s and early 1990s hysteria over multiple personalities/satanic ritual abuse/pedophile rings/day care trials &c. I would guess that this criticism was first raised by Christian polemicists and then the Muslims started responding to it. Several of the sites I found referred to this as a recent slander by Orientalists.
I found three websites where the "early menarche" explanation is given:
I trust that's sufficient evidence? Zora 10:42, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
sure, I don't doubt it is the usual response. I just meant that it'd be nice to be able to be a bit more specific. Also,
That sufficed for a while at least. Sigh .... Zora 08:52, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
~~
Nobody reeacting to the pedofilia link in "How old was Aisha when she was married?"? -- Striver 16:18, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
An anon editor added a link to another website arguing that Aisha was older than 9 when married. The addition was in the wrong place, in the wrong form, and the website to which it linked was diffuse and confusing. There is already a link to a very succinct and well-written presentation of the evidence. Surely that is sufficient example of this POV. Zora 11:36, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
A new editor named Eagleamn added "Battle of the Camel" to one section of the article. I reversed his/her edit, because the battle is already mentioned twice, once in a section heading and once in the course of the narrative. I don't think the addition is necessary, and it throws the rhythm of the sentence off. Eagleamn, of course you're free to come here and argue about it <g>. Zora 21:31, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
An anon editor added another item to the list showing that Aisha was post-pubescent. Some of the information in that item simply duplicated info already given. There was new information, re a ten-year age difference between Aisha and Asma, and an assertion that Asma died at the age of 100 in 73 AH. However -- this new information was not sourced. I find the assertion that Asma lived to the age of 100 a little hard to believe. It seems more likely to me that neither Aisha nor Asma knew precisely how old she was, given the way people dated at that time, and the frequent controversies re dating various events in early Islamic history.
If there's a new argument to be made, it should be sourced. Zora 07:16, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This time the anon argued that Aisha was clearly Muhammad's favorite wife and that um, "his potency was increased 40 times over". Ugh. That sounds like a Viagra ad and it's highly debateable. Zora 06:42, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It seems that more context is needed here. What were common practices around the world, especially with arranged marriages? What were common practices with the nobility class? My belief is that whether the age was 9 or 14, in the age of survival of the fittest, in the age before female education and autonomy, before the development of modern medicine and psychology, the ancient notion was that there was likely nothing wrong with this practice. -- Noitall 21:35, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
About the only context we have is anthropological, for various pre-modern societies. Many of them marry off females at an extremely early age, while they are still pre-pubescent. However, my understanding is that these marriages are not consummated until the bride is post-pubescent. Early marriage is usually seen by the parents as a kind act, assuring the girl's future. It can also be a way of ensuring that arranged marriages go ahead as planned, while the girl is still young and docile, and hasn't formed her own preferences. Both nobility and peasants practice early marriage.
Since what counts, socially, is the marriage, that's what is recorded. I would guess that recording the date and time of consummation would be much less common, and much harder to document -- especially for societies we only know through fragmentary records and archaeological evidence. I dunno how much physical anthrologists can figure out from bones -- age certainly, having born children, possibly -- but virginity is NOT something they could possibly deduce.
I need to get a copy of Robertson-Smith, Kinship and Marriage in Early Arabia, and put it through Distributed Proofreaders. It's old, but it's still one of the few sources for pre-Islamic Arabia. Zora 23:06, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
-- Noitall 01:39, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
-- Noitall 14:43, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
Actually, both points refer to marrying nine-year-olds. As Zora notes, finding information on the age of consummation is much more difficult. The youngest marriage I know of (from the Guiness Book of Records) was of a 1-year-old to a nine-month-old, I believe; we can safely assume it wasn't consummated for some time...- Mustafaa 19:15, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Babajobu is very confused about many things. You are attacking me and you don't even have any idea of what ideas you are attacking. My point is that Muhammad's behavior in this particular aspect was the product of his times. People were commonly betrothed prior to the age of 9, even at birth, see the entire history of European prince and princesses. Kings ran countries and executed people by this age. It was not a time where you needed to be 18 to get a driver's license or drink a beer. Sickness felled a large percentage of families and they did things early. Even though I am a Christian, I am no bible expert, but I bet you would find a lot of passages in the Old Testiment where it was pretty normal to marry and, presumably, consumate the marriage, early. -- Noitall 19:32, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
Yabbut, the same people who insist on believing the hadith that she was nine also assert that she was post-pubescent, because "Arabian girls matured earlier". Yes, this is bogus, because all the evidence is that the age of menarche in traditional societies was higher than it is now, in these days of good nutrition. But that seems to me to be good evidence that:
The only possible solution is claiming that Aisha was post-pubescent at nine. This says more about the ulema, IMHO, than it does about Muhammad. Zora 01:59, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I just want to address personal attacks by Babajobu. I don't mind personal attacks, I am a big person. But please make them somewhat relevant to the issue. I have made no edit here on this article, and only initiated a discussion to find out other POVs and other people's research or knowledge. Thus Babajobu's cannot be based on some edit he fundamentally disagrees with or the fact that I reverted his cherished bit of words or POV. Babajobu has called me all sorts of names, and I really do not know why, and made all sorts of scattered assumptions based on the articles I have edited, not on the what I have actually edited in those articles. Basically, all Babajobu has proven here is that he/she virolently leaps to conclusions without thinking. For the rest of you, thank you for your comments. -- Noitall 13:52, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
Narrated 'Aisha: "I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) 8:73:151
Here is some research on this subject using more than one references:
http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm
I quote
"Later research
Research subsequent to the time of Maulana Muhammad Ali has shown that she was older than this. An excellent short work presenting such evidence is the Urdu pamphlet Rukhsati kai waqt Sayyida Aisha Siddiqa ki umar (‘The age of Lady Aisha at the time of the start of her married life’) by Abu Tahir Irfani.[4a] Points 1 to 3 below have been brought to light in this pamphlet.
1. The famous classical historian of Islam, Ibn Jarir Tabari, wrote in his ‘History’:
“In the time before Islam, Abu Bakr married two women. The first was Fatila daughter of Abdul Uzza, from whom Abdullah and Asma were born. Then he married Umm Ruman, from whom Abdur Rahman and Aisha were born. These four were born before Islam.” [5]
Being born before Islam means being born before the Call.
2. The compiler of the famous Hadith collection Mishkat al-Masabih, Imam Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib, who died 700 years ago, has also written brief biographical notes on the narrators of Hadith reports. He writes under Asma, the older daughter of Abu Bakr:
“She was the sister of Aisha Siddiqa, wife of the Holy Prophet, and was ten years older than her. … In 73 A.H. … Asma died at the age of one hundred years.”
This would make Asma 28 years of age in 1 A.H., the year of the Hijra, thus making Aisha 18 years old in 1 A.H. So Aisha would be 19 years old at the time of the consummation of her marriage, and 14 or 15 years old at the time of her nikah. It would place her year of birth at four or five years before the Call.
3. The same statement is made by the famous classical commentator of the Holy Quran, Ibn Kathir, in his book Al-bidayya wal-nihaya:
“Asma died in 73 A.H. at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister Aisha.”
Apart from these three evidences, which are presented in the Urdu pamphlet referred to above, we also note that the birth of Aisha being a little before the Call is consistent with the opening words of a statement by her which is recorded four times in Bukhari. Those words are as follows:
“Ever since I can remember (or understand things) my parents were following the religion of Islam.”
This is tantamount to saying that she was born sometime before her parents accepted Islam but she can only remember them practising Islam. No doubt she and her parents knew well whether she was born before or after they accepted Islam, as their acceptance of Islam was such a landmark event in their life which took place just after the Holy Prophet received his mission from God. If she had been born after they accepted Islam it would make no sense for her to say that she always remembered them as following Islam. Only if she was born before they accepted Islam, would it make sense for her to say that she can only remember them being Muslims, as she was too young to remember things before their conversion. This is consistent with her being born before the Call, and being perhaps four or five years old at the time of the Call, which was also almost the time when her parents accepted Islam.
Maybe retards here should try to know the true meanings of word "research"
From the link you posted about Aisha being Mohammed's wife: "Such a person would need to possess the following qualities: an excellent, precise memory to retain a vast amount of detail accurately"
Yet she couldn't remember how old she was when her marriage was consumated? Or are you saying she lied? Rhm01 23:47, 23 Sept 2006
I do agree that this article is just fine as it is, absolutly.
I made that change to try to standardize all article, following "Name ibn/bint Fathers name". Its more practical in the long run, specialy if you have lots of articles....
Dont you agree its better to standardize?
-- Striver 30 June 2005 01:11 (UTC)
i want to add this:
"=== Muawiya ===
Thenceforth she lived a retired life until both his brother where killed by Muawiya ibn Abu Sufuyan. She became furious and became vocal, causin her to be killed by Muawiya in approximately 678."
after the end of the battle of the cammel. Any comments?
-- Striver 30 June 2005 02:19 (UTC)
I see that part was totaly ignored... well, ok, lets just say she died in a "unknown event"... *sight*
Regarding sharia faling apart if Aisha not being trustworthy, that does not apply to shias, we dont consider her trustworthy to begin with.
-- Striver 00:35, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't SEE your comment until now. His brother? Whose brothers? That is not clear at all. Nor is it at all clear that Muawiya killed Aisha. The more hadith I read, the more conspiracy theories I find. Anyone who is said by one faction to have died of illness or old age is said by another faction to have been poisoned. At this time, unless we could find the grave, exhume the body and test it to see if any poisons have survived the millenia, we can't be sure about ANY of the poison theories. I don't see that there's any point in mentioning them.
As for the point re Shi'a not considering Aisha-sourced hadith reliable for law, that's a good one, I'll make changes. Zora 01:15, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I found one reference in Madelung to Aisha's rage at Muawiya's murder of her brother, and desecration of his body -- only the one brother cited. Wasn't the other brother killed by Marwan, not Muawiya? Would take some research to dig up. Madelung has nothing re the death of Aisha. After much googling, I came up with one Shi'a account saying that Muawiya dug a pit for Aisha, into which she fell and was killed. This was held up to Sunni derision on the talk forum where I found it. Re poison, you may be remembering stories that Muawiya had Husayn ibn Ali poisoned, by bribing his wife -- also a Shi'a story, denied by Sunni.
This is a period not covered by my Ibn Ishaq. My copy of Ibn Sa'd isn't here yet, and I only have one volume of Tabari, for a different period. I can't find any record of an English translation of al-Waqidi. Do you have any cites OTHER than late, Shi'a oral traditions? It sounds to me as if the claim that Muawiya murdered Aisha is just one more attempt to blacken the name of Muawiya. Zora 05:21, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I have no first hand sources regarding this, only shia books in shia sites. And the book calims Mauwiya also poisoned the second brother and also gives a context to it. You can find a link to it in the brothers article. Wheter its true or not is irrelevant, we are not here to judge its auteticity, only to report it. You can write "shia cite sunni sources claiming Aisha was burried alive by Muawiya".
-- Striver 17:33, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Right now i cant offer more proof that all shia i have talked to and all shia sources i have read, whenever they have mentioned her death, they have claimed Muawiya did it. That is good enough for me. Sister, i cant find a "scholarly" referens for every single thing i know, in this case it should suffice that al-islam.org, answerig-ansar.org and shianews.com claim it. They all three are among the most prominent shia sites on the net.
By the way, could you add that she liberated Barirah mawla Aisha before hijra?
-- Striver 21:26, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
It's good that Zeno brought up the alternate explanation of sura 66. I wasn't aware of the two explanations until now, but I think this makes perfect sense. I think the two explanations should be explained in more detail, rather than just a link to the concubine/wife Maria being given. I'll do it when I can. However, I don't think it's true that the Shi'a reject the story of the honey, since it was a Shi'a, Striver, who added it in the first place. Of course, Striver does not necessarily reflect the views of all Shi'a. Again, research would be needed. Zora 18:32, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I dont get this, the siege guys have changed all over WP that "shias", impling all of them, question the story of the honey, and they have not used one single source for that, it bothers me that when i whant to add something, then 30 outside sources proove nothing about shia view, but when siege wants to add, then 0 links is adequate sourcing. Bah!
-- Striver 12:28, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
the only war i can remember was the war of the camel, between her and ali... i dont see how he's her son in law if that's who it was referring to -- GNU4Eva 03:30, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Zeno, you reverted to your version of the Maria note, and I can't see why. Is it just that you like the look of your own prose? I don't see why we can't explain the alternate theory in the Aisha article and repeat the explanation in the Maria article. I can see asking users to click to another article when the explanation would be too long -- such as dealing with the whole succession to Muhammad problem -- but one para is not too much to add. Zora 02:05, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Shouldent have done that revert.
-- Striver 21:48, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Stevertigo spent a lot of time giving the Muslim apologetic gloss, as well as removing the earlier note re the use of Ayesha as a woman's name. I removed the gloss, and here's why:
This article has been a hotly contested area for years. It is the scene of ugly clashes between anti-Muslim bigots (Muhammad was a pedophile, nyah nyah!) and pious Muslims (nothing that makes Muhammad look even remotely human or fallible can be included). Not to mention the Shi'a versus Sunni wars.
After a great deal of editing work, we had arrived at what seemed to be a stable NPOV version, one that all sides could accept. Stevertigo's edits threatened to return us to that state of all-out war. I don't feel that they added any information -- they just insisted on the Muslim version of Aisha's history.
Stevertigo, I know that you think you're defending Islam with your edits, but your efforts would just plunge us back into the wars and lead to the posting of more scurrilous interpretations of Muhammad's behavior. Please, unless you have extra information to add (which I don't think is possible, since we've covered the earliest sources), let this version be. Zora 07:04, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello, I must be the user you're talking about. Ali Sina happens to be a scholar, like it or not. He quotes the Hadith and the Quran and explains why he believes Mohammad was a pedophile. I don't see why the reference should be taken out --Tabari states that Mohammad married Aisha when Aisha was six years old. Yes, six years old. This makes Aisha a little girl, hence the claim that Mohammad was a pedophile. Taking out the reference to Faith Freedom would violate Wikipedia's policy of neutrality, since pro-Islamic views are also featured heavily on this page. Tauphon 17:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
A new editor just added a link to a page on the Faithfreedom.org website that accuses Muhammad of being a pedophile. I was going to delete this as malicious slander and then I thought -- it's perhaps a good idea for readers to know just what sort of venom is being spread on this matter. In fact, the page is so transparently prejudiced that I don't think it has the effect it wants to have.
I'd like to hear what other editors have to say on this matter. I hope that people can consider it from the freedom of speech/access to information angle and not the "we must not disrespect the prophet" angle. Zora 23:59, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
He is neither banned, neither crazy, neither good, nor bad. We care about notability. Cheers -- Szvest 04:49, 28 December 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
Karl, I assume that you understand very well that when discussing Ali's notability, we subsequently discuss his website. Cheers -- Szvest 18:59, 28 December 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
The article that we have an external link to is written by Ali Sina but it's subject is not ALi Sina, so how notable he is or not, is not very interesting in this case. The article is about the Aisha/Muhammed pedophilia controversy which is obviously very well known, and of course worth mentioning in this article. I don't see any reason why there should be any resistance to having a link to an article that clarify and provide information to our readers, about one of the POVs that exist regarding this issue? Other articles re this issue can of course be added to add some balance and provide information about other POVs re this, however I don't see any reason to remove the external link. -- Karl Meier 21:07, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
I would never use his site. Completely ignoring the fact that I'm a Muslim, he insults and lies a LOT. Every Muslim on the site he calls a "cult member" along with other numerous insults to Islam, the Prophet Muhammad (as), and the Muslim.
He lies, also. For example, he says that in an authentic Hadith there is a creation story that Muhammad (as) told. That Hadith doesn't exist! It was completely made up by Sina but he tried to pass it off as authentic and as if it existed. He also has numerous other lies.
It's one thing to be a "scholar" who is critical of Islam. It's another thing to lie about what you're supposedly a "scholar" of. Armyrifle 14:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi Armyrifle, can you please substantiate your attacks against Ali Sina? Nevertheless, Ali Sina is simply the owner of FFI. There are plenty of other dissident voices in FFI that criticise Islam from every point of view you may imagine. However, Mohammad's pedophilia is something of a consensus there, as well as other websites and organisations that also criticise Islam, aka the Religion of Peace.
Since I am ex-Muslim myself and that Mohammad's pedophilia was the main reason I left Islam, and since apostates have a right to be represented in Wikipedia alongside with the Muslims, I do not see why the Faith Freedom link is deleted all the time.
Besides, I wonder why all the instances where Mohammad's pedophilia was mentioned in the article have been taken out. Because there are people who think Mohammad was a pedophile, i.e. he married a six-years old child, and because Wikipedia is completely NEUTRAL, at least the phenomenon that some people think Mohammad was a pedophile HAS TO BE MENTIONED in this article.
Is that clear? Tauphon 08:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Guys! For everybody who is into reverting. Nobody from both sides is giving us in detail the reason(s) why she/he is reverting. Please discuss here to sort that out. I have no knowledge about that particular issue but I see the article is being unstable because of simple things. Please, discuss the issue here. Cheers -- Szvest 17:59, 28 December 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
I have reverted to the version before MSK's last edit, because he violated 3RR and has been blocked. That doesn't mean I can vouch for its accuracy or that I agree with its contents. My only concern was to ensure MSK gains no advantage from the violation, so the regular editors should feel free to retain or delete the edit as you see fit. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:33, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
An anon date crusader changed CE to AD. I changed it back. At which MSK arrives and reverts to an extremely old "Muhammad was a pedophile" version while accusing ME of reverting and using misleading edit summaries. Someone is confused and it isn't me. Zora 03:55, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I am afraid that changing CE to AD is no cultural crusade but simply an attempt at accuracy. The modern calander used in most of the world today is divided in BC and AD. Simple fact and nothing to do with crusading. Oh by the way I am Muslim and resent the inference that I am some sort of crusader.
Fine but this is still inaccurate. Furthermore for a consistance approach do you would have to make attempts to remove all references to the Islamic calander. ie has AH been changed to some equally meaningless thing? To change the islamic calander is wrong. But so is to change the Christian one.
Sir/Madam this has nothing to do with neutrality but to do with accuracy. What you are stating is simply incorrect and artificial. The dating from the Islamic calander is extensively used in other articles on Islamic history...and may I say entirely appropiately. Had the dating in this article been based on the islamic calander I would have no argument. However if you use the Christian calander, you have to use the appropiate abbreviations if you claim accuracy
I agree that this an entirely reasonable solution to this problem. I will change the rest of the dates in accordance with this
We've had CE there for ages -- I put it there when I extensively rewrote the article a year and a half ago, something like that. We have CE in numerous articles throughout Wikipedia. We've had an Arbcom case rebuking a date crusader, and an era ruling to the effect that editing an article JUST to change the date notation is wrong. I don't see why we have to remove the notation for someone who's breaking rules just with his date crusading. Zora 09:12, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I've noted the above discussion with interest. I am not sure what date crusading is. But I do agree with the chap who has pointed out the inconsistancy of having references to the Islamic calender (I have to admit that I too am a Muslim) and artifically removing all references to the Christian Calander. Simpily because this error has been perpetuated in the past does to signify validity. Compromise is important. And it would seem that if CE creates as much annoyance as AD then we should remove both. Inshallah.
If I am correct , Aisha was ingaged to somebody else befor her ingagment to Muhammad . Am I right or wrong . F.a.y. تبادله خيال /c 20:47, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Marriages occured much earlier at that time because the life expectancy almost 1500 years ago was less than half of that today [ [8]]. What's wrong with that statement? The sentence before says that early marriages were common at that time & the life expectancy is probably the reason for that. I don't understand what you mean by the shorter on European Demographics. Rajab 10:36, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Why should I compromise? The WP way is to give all sides of an issue -- when the sides are notable. Your "explanation" is your original theory; it is not supported by any demographer. Lower life expectancies, yes -- but this does NOT translate directly into lower age at marriage. Your theory is not notable, so far as I can tell. Come back with cites from reputable sources and then we'll add your theory.
What's relevant is "age at marriage". This has tended to be fairly low in many pre-modern societies, with women married off as soon as they were pubescent. But not all societies! It varies. However, in no societies that I know is sex with pre-pubescent females approved. Nine is pre-pubescent, very much so. Puberty actually comes later to undernourished women, not earlier. (See Aisha's account of the necklace for a comment on how little she weighed, and how thin women were in those days.) That's why I think, personally, that Aisha was bragging and exaggerating her youth at marriage. But that's just MY theory. Zora 11:35, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Anon, I removed the last part of your edits re Aisha's age at marriage. You can't argue that "Muhammad would not have done anything nasty", as that assumes that Muhammad is perfect. There are many non-Muslims who would not accept that argument; it does not belong in a secular encyclopedia. The argument that marriage to a pre-pubescent child would have been shocking is unreferenced, and would be hard to demonstrate. We know very little, really, about marriage customs in pre-Islamic Arabia, though there is much speculation.
If you want to research an article on Pre-Islamic Arabian society, that would be wonderful. But until we have something like that, we can't really make statements about what was or wasn't accepted. Zora 23:50, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
In this case, Ibn Ishaq can be used to prove that Aisha was older than nine, and avert a scandalous interpretation of Muhammad's behavior. What does it profit a Muslim to criticize him here? Are you trying to argue that Aisha was indeed nine years old?
If there are any questions about Ibn Ishaq, his article is the place to discuss it. Zora 06:18, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
This may be an unpopular proposal, but I think we should remove everything which is not sourced from this article. I had a difficult time tracking down many of the facts, but its probably undesirable to mark every other sentence with {{fact}}. These generic references like "according to some hadiths" are especially troubling. Unless they cite a specific one it seems like any level of original research or non-sense can be justified. savidan (talk) (e@) 07:16, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
For example, I removed:
This seems like the definition of original research. So what if Muhammad didn't let 14 year olds join the army? That says nothing about Aisha's age. Clearly, she would be a special case. The rest of it is even worse. savidan (talk) (e@) 07:23, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I pulled these out, put feel free to put them back in if you can back them up with cites.
I will put the above back into the text. This is the most crucial information. Just counting hadith does not give any information. A citation is not needed. All the hadith arguing for a young age are listed. If you have doubts, go and look yourself if you find one without Urwa in the chain of narration. It's not that many. You can do that!
savidan (talk) (e@) 07:27, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I also removed this:
I see how the first part is referenced. But the third sentence does not in any way follow from the first two. savidan (talk) (e@) 01:42, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the following paragraphs from the "young age controversy" section. They are replete with POVs and unsourced material. The most prominent of which is the paragraph about Sunni principles of Shari'a being threatened if we assume Aisha was incorrect regarding her age. I would say most Sunni muslims, and scholars, would find this hard to believe. Feel free to reinsert the paragraphs with sources and reword it so that it doesn't represent a deduction or a POV.
Ahmedayad 06:55, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
This IP keeps readding things without adding sources. As well, he/she also keeps changing the section title without explanation. This one thing is particularly heinous: the part about "it is unanimously agreed...". That is so clearly not the case and does not belong in the article. I don't want to revert more than twice, but other users should really step in and revert this anon. savidan (talk) (e@) 22:33, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Actually your last edit is a major improvement, so I won't readd the tag. savidan (talk) (e@) 08:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
The Chicago Manual of Style, which is the standard reference for those copyediting academic works, wants all numbers below 100 to be spelled out rather than given as Arabic numerals. The text simply looks better.
As for claims that Aisha was the third wife of twelve -- both those numbers are disputed. Don't state those numbers as facts. Zora 17:46, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
To Zora, you removed the section I added about the previous engagement right after my addition. I don't check my edits religiously for reverts so I have just came to notice. You mention that it is in a bad place and is repeated, both are not correct. Including the first engagement in the section about the "young age controversy" lends support to the ideaa that her engagement to the prophet (PBUH) was not unique at that time regardless of her age (even if we accept she was young by our standards, the fact that she was already engaged tells us it was not strange for her to be so). I agree the section I had was long, instead I have added the following to the "young age" section: "regardless of her age at the time, Aisha was already engaged to another man before Muhammad" Ahmedayad 06:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Zmmz, your edits turned straightforward prose into ungrammatical muddles. Furthermore, I don't think anyone disputes the story of the lost necklace except those scholars, like Patricia Crone, who think that all the hadith and tafsir are suspect. Perhaps a reference to Historiography of early Islam] would be in order. However, it's not necessary to NPOV statements that no one is disputing. None of the doubting scholars have even touched on the story of the necklace.
The article does need a springclean and rewrite, but I have to finish some RL work (line editing a Hawaiian history) before I can get to it. Zora 21:59, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, please do not erase NPOV language used in the article, such that the age of the prophet`s wife is nowhere mentioned or hinted here. The reader needs to have some indication of the wife’s age. We must write articles in neutral language, and not solely rely on lopsided commentary. Please review Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and the Wiki manual of writing policies. Zmmz 22:01, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I`m sorry, If you want to do something useful is incivil, and please assume good faith. The hadith is respected, yet, it is not the sole scholarly work, specially, since there is a legitimate controversy. As such, the article needs to be written in a neutral language. Zmmz 22:17, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I asked other editors if they wanted to split the marriage age controversy off into another article, and no one wanted to do so. Recently there's been some back-and-forth about introducing the controversy in the birthdate section.
Usually the intro para is where we state why someone is notable. So I took the controversy out of the birthdate, and moved it right up to the top, along with the Shi'a critique. Now no one can say that we're hiding anything. Look OK to other editors? Zora 01:11, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like a good plan. Something that was overlooked before and would definitely add to the article. Zora 01:47, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Mani, we can't state in the intro that she was a child bride when there is controversy about her age. If you look at the section below, you see that there is a wide range of estimates of her age. WP doesn't state as fact matters that are in dispute; we just give all sides.
I have a feeling that my reversion is going to immediately be trumpeted in the Aucaman arbitration case as proof that I'm a unregenerate edit warrior, who should be banned from WP. I had to think for a moment as to whether or not I'd revert what I guessed was a deliberately provocative edit. Then I figured that if I could be intimidated into NOT doing something that I thought was fair, I would be a coward. So, I did it.
I would, however, appreciate some statements of support from other editors here if the poop hits the rotating blade. Zora 02:00, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted ManiF's changes because, as far as I can see, there has been no consensus reached to add "young bride" to the intro. The fact that she was young, as Zora point out, is not controversial at all. In fact, young is very POV. There are many people married young. The assertion that she was married at 9 is already mentioned in the introduction. Pepsidrinka 03:07, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I’m sorry to see there is an edit-war here, and I apologize if Muslims are offended, in any way; I’m being sincere. Nevertheless, with all due respect, how can you say Aisha`s age was of no controversy? It is perhaps one the most well argued, and notorious hypothesis, backed with a lot of academic views, from Arabic books itself, in the religion Islam. I read this article when I joined Wiki anew in Feb/06, and I had no idea about this issue; yet, the article had not mentioned anything. I read a book by accident mentioning the enormity of this issue two weeks ago, then came back and added [one] sentence, stating she may have been a child at marriage, so at least the reader would have an idea about what is going-on. The reader deserves to know that. Am I incorrect? I know it is a sensitive issue to Muslims, but should that be a reason from excluding, or burying this somewhere in a completely different article? Zmmz 03:27, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
After, I breathed life into the issue, yes, now, it does. Good luck guys, and try to get along. Thanks Zmmz 03:56, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
User:210.211.233.171/ User:210.211.234.85, you have violated the three-revert rule. Timothy Usher 11:32, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Anon, there are two things wrong with the version you like. One, if you want the controversy highlighted, then having it at the top is even more salient than having it in the second para. Two, that link accuses Muhammad of pedophilia. Putting it at the top, by itself, without any link to a competing viewpoint, gives it an unfair advantage. You're trying to use this article as a soapbox.
I could let you revert one more time and get banned, but I'll try to play nice: you've reverted three times and if you do it again, you'll get blocked. So don't.
Ashmoo suggested reorganizing the article and I think he's right. So sometime this weekend (after I finish the freelance editing work I'm doing), I'll try to reorganize the article so that the controversy represents all THREE sides of the argument, that is,
The link you want to insert would go in the second group.
Other editors, does this make sense? If you guys like it, you can start the re-org yourselves. Fine by me if I have less work to do. Zora 11:33, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I was not aware of such rule so I will not edit here. Sorry to be of bother.
I said I would do it and I did it. Took hours. Some of the sections still need citations, verifiable quotes, etc. I hope that this will satisfy all sides of the controversy. Zora 03:45, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Shi'a also regard her as a "mother of the belivers", we just dont put the same conotation to the title, the title it self is Qur'anic. -- Striver 08:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems that the date of the marriage is pretty vague. On the page, it mentions 622, but no exact date. Are historians sure that the marriage took place in 622 rather than 624?
Also, according to Tabari, Alisha was born in the Jahilyyah (before Islam), so she may have been born in 610 or earlier. So, one could argue that she was 14, or older, when she was married.
The article read that Shi'a dislike Aisha; an anon erased that, and wrote that since Ali forgave her, they forgave her. I wrote the "dislike" bit, based on several Shi'a websites. However, the anon may also be correct. There might well be a difference of opinion among Shi'a. I rewrote to say that and added a citation tag. We need some quotes, if any is up for getting them. If we can't get quotes, we should erase any unreferenced views. Zora 20:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
For some reason, FairNBalanced seems to feel it's fair and balanced to respond to my edit summaries a. "rm or pedophile; one does not become a pedophile through actions", and b. "rm irrelevant reference to Ibn Ishaq being 100 years after Muhammad; Bukhari and Muslim were even later" with "rv". Rather than edit warring, I'd ask that he explain clearly the reasoning behind including the entirely unreferenced claim that "Critics insist [...] that Muhammad [...] became a [...] pedophile" in this article. (I think the "child molester" thing is ridiculous too — I expect most reasonable people would recognise this as an outrageous and provocative statement unsupported by mainstream opinion; wikipedia is not a venue for original research depicting the central figures of major world religions as criminal deviants — but the "became a pedophile" is just surreal.) We can deal with the well-poisoning of Ibn Ishaq later. JEREMY 16:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The fact is is that Muhammad (as) never had sex with Aisha. Period. There is a doubtworthy Hadith (according to Shias) that he did, but this was when she was a fully grown adult. Armyrifle
I propose we remove all the unsourced material and original argument here, on "both" sides. It's not quite nonsense, but it is unencyclopedic. Do we really need an "age controversy" section? Wikipedia isn't a debate club, and this article isn't (or shouldn't be) "Criticisms of Muhammad". I honestly, in good faith, believe that the correct way to deal with this is to simply and without prejudice state and attribute the ages to Hadith (as this is the only direct statement which doesn't require our original research or a link to an unreliable source to parse), include some of the apparent contradictions (e.g. Tabari) in a footnote, delete all the weak sources and just leave it at that. Timothy Usher 06:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I've eliminated the pointless "evidence for" and bundles the refs into footnotes to the marriage section, where they belong. The "evidence against" section contains many elements of original argument, and I think we should look at how best to characterize what is actually there. Timothy Usher 07:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Here is what you guys are looking for: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Islam#Aisha
We have an exceptional editor who is working on the criticism of islam article; let me introduce him: MERZBOW! -- Aminz 07:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Aisha ... was a wife of Muhammad, whom Muslims regard as the final prophet of Islam.
The sentence is a bit clumsy. It almost sounds like it's describing Aisha as being the final prophet. Should we just get rid of the part after Muhammad? Andjam 00:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, the internal link for Muhammad should be sufficient as to who he was. Also, the Aisha is controversial part seems to veer off in some areas. Perhaps we can add something concerning the figure herself in addition to the "controversy" portion of the intro. Maybe something about the significant number of hadeeths she recorded? Stoa 04:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
A reference to role of Muhammad in muslim community was needed, as it is important to contextualize the role of Aisha and her position as Umm ul Momineen in the muslim commmunity.
They are part of her historical identity, and easily slipping two words Islam and prophet infront of Muhammad acheives all of this without having a read veer off to another link to work it out. Remember readers can come via random processes and exploration of links they do not have to be either looking for the information specifically or even be aware of her in relation to the appropiate Muhammad. The objection being raised is NPOV, because NPOV applies to honorifics but not to descriptors. Linking the use of the word with Islam when used appropriately here can be modified to an NPOV tone enabling it to be used to describe and provide descriptive information that will allow the reader to easily align himself towards the correct frame of reference, without clunking the sentence as in this case. Removing all reference to the term prophet would be doing the wikipedia's purpose of dissemination of information a disservice and actually impedes the readibiliy and comprehension of articles, the Wiki policy acknowledges that and distinguishes between its use as a honorific and otherwise and using the term Islam or Muslim IS following the recommendation of the policy.-- Tigeroo 12:29, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Where does the belief that Aisha was a virgin come from? Did it arise in response to claims of pedophiles? 152.163.100.8 14:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
What's up with this recent attempt to re-POV the opening? The age is controversial so we can't list it as fact; what is true is that critics of Muhammad think there's an issue, and I've tried a couple of different versions saying that only to have them reverted (along with other editors material, I might add) with nonsensical or misleading edit summaries. I'm not going to revert again, but I'd like to see the issue discussed here before my short, accurate version is deleted again. JEREMY 06:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
-- Tigeroo 19:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Here is the complete story:
1. The historical accounts to Aisha's age state she was married to Muhammad at age of six or seven. She then stayed in her parents' home till she had reached puberty. The traditions say this happened at nine (or maybe ten according to Ibn Hisham) and then her marriage with Muhammad was consummated. ONE PART OF THE STORY IS FINISHED NOW.
2. There are several other historical references (quotes from Aisha'a father, etc) however that contradict Aisha being married to Muhammad at the age of nine. Spelberg points out the contradictions but discredits those traditions rather than other traditions on Aisha's age. Some other scholars do otherwise. That's it. Zora has interesting theories of the motivation for possible production of Aisha's age traditions. -- Aminz 04:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
3. There are two possibilities: 1. Muhammad married Aisha at age 9. 2. Some Muslims made this up. ; In both cases, it was not seen as a bad thing in the eyes of people living at that time. -- Aminz 05:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Mike18xx, I don't really have the energy to get into discussion. I quote something from Watt and quit this discussion right now: "From the standpoint of Muhammad's time, then, the allegations of treachery and sensuality cannot be maintained. His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way. On the contrary, some of the acts criticized by the modern Westerner show that Muhammad's standards werehigher than those of his time. In his day and generation he was a social reformer, even a reformer in the sphere of morals. He created a new system of social security and a new family structure, both of which were a vast improvement on what went before. By taking what was best in the morality of the nomad and adapting it for settled communities, he established a religious and social framework for the life of many races of men. That is not the work of a traitor or 'an old lecher'." (p. 229, Watt (1961)).-- Aminz 05:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Jeremy, I don't get how my comment above shows my own POV (that which set of hadiths are more respected). I just reported the views of both parties. My third comment was also quite correct. I'll take it back if you can find for me an 7-8-9th century critic who has criticized Muhammad for his marriage to Aisha. I have a vague memory that John of Damascus,in his book, The Fount of Wisdom, does criticize marriage of Muhammad with Zayd but I don't remember anything about Aisha. It is possible that I am wrong. And I'll take your advice and don't edit contentious articles such as Aisha. -- Aminz 08:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Those of you who keep insisting that the hadith are "Aisha's own testimony" don't know anything about hadith. There are many thousands of hadith and they contradict each other!
They were written down hundreds of years after the events they supposedly relate.
Western academics believe that most of them are fabricated. Islamic scholars put more trust in them, but even they battle over which hadith should be trusted and which rejected. Sheesh. Sometimes you insist that Western academics are right, Islamic scholars are unreliable -- when it serves your purposes. But now, it serves your purposes to ignore all of Western academia and say, "Yup, these hadith are true." That's not disinterested pursuit of the truth. Zora 11:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
"They adduce the following episodes as proof that Muhammad and Aisha's marriage did not always go smoothly." needs to be clearified.
It is directly followed with adultery issue, implying that Shi'a argue She was guilty. Shi'a do no such thing, and it needs to be clearfied. It is acctualy one of the missconseptions against the Shi'a that Shi'a belive she was guilty, Sunnis are known to quote the Qur'an to "Correct" the Shi'a stance.
So the article needs to state that Shi'a do not regard her as guilty, and that Sunnis have not understood this, quoting the Qur'an to try to "overprove" Shi'a on a stance they do not even hold.
The acctual Shi'a stance is that due to their non-perfect relation, Muhammad (pbuh) did not immediatly dissmissed the allgations.
There is a big difference. We do NOT belive she was guilty, but we POINT OUT that the allegations were not outright dissmissed, and that she was not even supported. In fact, Muhammad wondering what to do about it summms it upp quit well. Also, the article needs to state that Ali did not try to defend her, rather adviced Muhammad that there are other women.
I can add references when the article gets unprotected. Any comments?-- Striver 11:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Today an anonymous editor changed the name of Muhammad's wife in the "story of the honey" section from Zaynab bint Jahsh to Umm Salama Hind bint Abi Umayya. Both were wives of Muhammad, but is this editor correct in which one was associated with that story?
On another note, Tigeroo has been inserting the word " presentist" into the discussion of critics of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (he has also done it at Aisha's age at marriage". I feel this is not NPOV; I have never heard the word "presentism" used except to be disparaging. I think it's especially true in this case, because those who defend Muhammad by saying Aisha was older are not called "presentists", though they still clearly accept modern morality as the norm (or else they would see the need to defend him for this.) I've reworded it somewhat to be less judgemental, I hope it is satisfactory to all parties now.-- Cúchullain t/ c 22:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Accusation of adultery and story of the honey were removed (and I reverted this). If this is to be done it needs to be agreed upon. gren グレン 20:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Several places in this article insert "peace be upon him" after naming Muhammad. I am aware that this is the custom among Muslims, but shouldn't this article take a more religiously neutral point of view? I mean, Wikipedia doesn't refer to Jesus of Nazareth as "Christ" or "Jesus Christ" when talking about him in a purely historical sense.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Elchip ( talk • contribs).
Interesting link [14] hope this helps. Hypnosadist 12:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Compare the following sentence:
The age of Aisha is believed by the majority of Muslims and by the Western scholars of Islam to have been six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad.
with what it replaced:
Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad.
Why are we using the passive? Why are we reifying an abstract as the subject, when perfectly concrete subjects (two of them, in fact) are available? Proabivouac 03:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
It is amazing and unbelievable.Scientifically speaking, it must be very dengerous for her. 222.225.108.100 15:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
There appears to be a bug in the software, as this revision contains changes not shown in the diff window. One of them is, "stayed in her parents' home till [sic.] she had reached puberty at nine…" From which of the cited sources did you get that, Aminz? Proabivouac 03:56, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Now tell me: why is it enyclopedically important at what age Aisha reached puberty? A couple of lines below the puberty speculation, Peters writes that Aisha was about eighteen when Muhammad died, so she was about nine when the marriage was consummated. If the insertion was meant to make her appear older than she was, then it was a nice try. Beit Or 20:32, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
How about if we put a general statement since we don't have sources about Aisha herself. This is an exact quote from the book Mohammad: Prophet and Statesman by Watt: "We must remember, of course, that girls matured much earlier in seventh-century Arabia." If Watt thought it was important to mention this, perhaps we can mention it in this article. Does anybody object to this? OpTioNiGhT ( talk) 23:39, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
There's a fairly common modern attack on Islam of "Muhammad is a paedophile", based on his six-year-old bride. Shouldn't this be addressed, probably with some historical background (was this controversial in the past).
It seems unbalanced to just say "He married her when she was six" with no further comment on the age, which seems outrageous to modern eyes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.31.166.240 ( talk) 22:21, August 27, 2007 (UTC)
It has to go in greater depth the criticism of Muhammad this marriage created. J knight 98. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.210.199 ( talk) 17:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I have restored the section on Aisha's age at marriage. There has been a controversial debate on this issue for at least a decade or two, and I see no reason for it to be excluded from the article. It seems the section may have been removed due to a lack of prominent adherents of the opposing view, but now I've added Maulana Muhammad Ali as a prominented adherent, and may add more adherents later. Jagged 85 07:29, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
<reset>Reliable sources have already answered the question for us. The only people disputing it are people who are not scholars of Islam, and have an axe to grind. We can't give their wishful thinking undue weight. Arrow740 08:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
The "claim of concensus" clause refers to claims stated in the article. Nice try. According to WP:V, you have to show that your source is reliable. You can't. Arrow740 08:41, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Guys, please read continue discussion here [18] -- Aminz 08:52, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Over at Wikisource we are discussing the deletion of s:Age of Aisha, which appears to be copyright. If anyone has evidence that it is public domain, that would be great. I suggest everyone who is interested in the age controversy go read it one last time before it is deleted from Wikisource.
That document used to be a source on the article " Aisha's age at marriage" which has been gutted and eventually redirected to this article, because apparently there were no named scholars except for Barlas (see Talk:Aisha's age at marriage#Redirect). From a quick review of both talk pages, I cant believe that the entire debate has been reduced to : "Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad. She stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, when the marriage was consummated.[][][][]".
That sentence is no where near enough to explain the amount of scholarly research that has been done on this topic, which was more adequately covered 12 months ago on the previous article. Without having dug very deep into what has happened here, my guess is that three aspects need to be revisited here:
Aminz recently added a number of citations to the Encyclopedia of Women and Islamic Cultures. This may or may not be a reliable source (I know nothing about it), but assuming that it is, Aminz, you're going to have to do much better with your citations (as in page numbers, the title of the entry, the author of the entry, etc) rather than just attributing all statements to the "Encyclopedia". Forgive me for being skeptical, but you have a history of trying to include the view that Aisha was older than the primary sources indicate, and most of the sources you have introduced have been rejected as unreliable. Please include the authors' reasoning for their claim that Aisha was 12 when she was married; I assume they have a reason to be disagreeing with the hadith and Tabari. If they don't, or offer only circumstantial evidence, that would be a strike against their credibility in this particular instance. This has been discussed so much here that I think explanation is warranted.-- Cúchullain t/ c 22:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) We are not discussing Barlas here. That was already discussed at length above and at different forums. We are currently discussing the Encyclopedia you recently introduced as a source. To that, I'm very disappointed that they apparently don't back up their assertions. But you can clear one thing up: when you dropped the quote into the article, you said that "According to Barbara Ibrahim and Alyce Abdalla, Aisha was betrothed when she was nine and married when she was twelve." But here on the talk page, you said "The authors say that there is even a wide belief that Aisha married at 12..." These are two different things. Which do they actually say?-- Cúchullain t/ c 07:20, 11 December 2007 (UTC) Additionally, I almost have to believe that the authors somehow explain their claims. I don't believe they would simply make bald statements about things like this with no backup whatsoever.-- Cúchullain t/ c 07:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The Prophet Muhammad is widely believed to have married his third wife ʿĀʾisha when she was 12. They were betrothed by her father in order to forge a political alliance when she was 9. The Prophet deliberately delayed consummation of the marriage until she reached physical maturity. His example set a religious standard for the appropriate age for marriage of females just after the onset of menses. Engagement or betrothal, however, often took place much earlier. This pattern of female marriage soon after reaching reproductive capability is typical of premodern societies in many parts of the world. In those settings, fertility is central to adult female identity; childhood ends and adult responsibility begins with physical maturity. When Arab nations emerged into statehood in the middle of the twentieth century, they often enshrined in law the low marriage ages allowable under Muslim Sharīʿa law. Thus, marriage is legal for females at age 11 in Sudan, 14 in Yemen, and 16 in Egypt. (But there are exceptions: Syria and Jordan set the legal age at 18, while it is 21 in Libya.) Meanwhile, understandings of what constitutes childhood and how children are to be protected have evolved rapidly in recent years. Countries such as Egypt have adopted comprehensive legislation to protect children and enforce their rights to such social benefits as education and health care. Governmental agencies now exist in nearly every Arab country to protect the interests of children, and girl children are often subject to special remedial programs and protections. Childhood in these recent legal codes is commonly defined as extending to the age of 18, following international United Nations standards.
I would like to remove the sentence "After the wedding, Aisha continued to play with her toys, and Muhammad entered into the spirit of these games.[7]" Just because Watt was an expert on Islam doesn't mean everything he wrote can be stated as fact. Arrow740, you can save me the trip to the library by telling me what source Watt used for this statement. Is it a Hadith or a quote from a historian of that time? OpTioNiGhT ( talk) 05:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
OK, I went to the library and checked out Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman by Watt. On page 102 it states: “The sources do not comment directly on her [Aisha] tender years, though they describe how she went on playing with her toys, and how Muhammad entered into the spirit of her games.” I find that this is taken a bit out of context and presented as fact, when Watt himself was simply referring to what the sources say about it. In the section “Note on the Sources”, it is explained that the Quran was the primary source for this work and that other sources include Sirah or Life by Ibn-Is’haq, and Maghazi or Expeditions of al-Waqidi. Seeing that there is no reference to “the spirit” of Muhammad in any of the major Islamic sources, I don’t think we need to keep this statement. As for the playing with toys, the hadith mentions Aisha playing with dolls (not toys) with her friends. There is controversy concerning this hadith because it is not clear if this happened before or after the marriage. I would like Arrow740 to come up with at least one more source (other than Watt) that talks about this issue. OpTioNiGhT ( talk) 04:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Cuchullain, your re-wording is completely misleading. We don't know if the sources mention anything about the spirit. We have a hadith that mentions the toys but does not refer to whether this is before or after the wedding. I will remove the sentence until you provide me with any source (other than Watt) that mentions the spirit of Mohammad in any way. Please post your comments here before re-introducing this phrase. Perhaps we can come to an agreement about the toys, but I really doubt you will find anything to back up the mention of the spirit. OpTioNiGhT ( talk) 01:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Aisha/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
It says on 'Age at marriage, 'having sexual relationships with a girl so young'. There are no sources that state he had sexual relationships with Aisha but rather they contradict this. Aisha was Muhammeds only virgin wife. So please could I remove this.
Thank you. MFHEagle123 ( talk) 18:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)MFHEagle123 |
Last edited at 18:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 20:13, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
== What consummated really means ==amena
tr.v. con·sum·mat·ed, con·sum·mat·ing, con·sum·mates
1. 1. To bring to completion or fruition; conclude: consummate a business transaction. 2. To realize or achieve; fulfill: a dream that was finally consummated with the publication of her first book. 2. 1. To complete (a marriage) with the first act of sexual intercourse after the ceremony. 2. To fulfill (a sexual desire or attraction) especially by intercourse.
These are two possible meaning for the word consummated. Almost everyone thinks it's about sex. Consumated can aslo mean complete. Remember in early days of Arabia. A women was a tool. If a family got a daugther when they wanted a son they could bury her alive but doing that for a son was considered murder. Alot of people the Prohpet(PBUH) married were widowers who lost their husbands mostly from the battles. He married alot of them but he didn't have sex with all of them. Frankly this issue with Aisha is over blown by Anti-Islamists who look for reasons to discredit Islam.
a Sugestion:
no more of the honey. For this, the Prophet is addresed in a revelation with the rethorical question "why do you prohibit yourself" and answered in the same verse with "it is to please your wives, whatever had been made lawful by Allah was his to eat". Later (Qur'an 66:1). The viwes are then rebuked rebuked and warned in the folowing verses as "your hearts are inclined (to oppose him)"
Of course, it needs copyeditiong.
I have rewritten Striver's version. The article still needs some work. It's now quite long, and there's too much verbatim quoting of hadith. I hope that Striver will accept my rewrite as a faithful representation of the Shia viewpoint, even if not as long and detailed as his. Zora 23:23, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Thx for you time. May i propose to make a second version of the diffrent subjects att the end of the article where i can add all the details i want? -- Striver 23:34, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Thx for the tips, ill try to get there when i feel i have done an acurate and comprehensive work on representing the Shia view on Aisha in this article. I work that way, on thing in depht, then the next.
About this article. Why is it a problem in having realy big articles? I dont get the point of restrictiong it. If its about readability, then why not have a short and then a detailet version of the same topic?
As it is i realy feel that i dont get to add all the hadith that show why we argue as we do.
In my oppinion ther is a great deal to tell to show what she felt and why she felt so in regards to manny diffrent people. For example Fatimah, Ali, Abu Bakr, Umar and so on...
As you can gues, ther are several persons and several diffrent ocasions (spellin?).
Whe Shia dont have a simplistic view of the people, that is "they alla loved eachothered and came along as great friends", no, we see theme more like in a soap oprah version where evreybody hade difrent views and angles on evereybody else, and in my oppinion its important to cover all importan persons that Aisha interacted with and how she did that to give a good picture of her aligeances. Its almost imposible to understand her psycology and why she rebeld agains Ali without having a simpistic view if we arent suposed to thuroughly go thruogh the background.
My spelling suck big time. I know. I dont have Word :(
Thx, and peace. -- Striver 03:25, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Of course its not, but would'nt you agree that its within the NPOV to acurratlý describe the Shia stance on the topic and also why we belive as we do and what our arguments are? -- Striver 03:07, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Whell, ther is no problem having a christan saying his mind as long as he is stating that it is the cristian view. Anyway, i dont get the problem since i only quote Sunni sources.
I mean, c'mon, why is the Sunni version supposed to be the correct one?
Why is are the Shia not equally entiteled to give the Shia version?
Sunni vesion = evereybody are best friends. Shia version = they loved some and hated som people.
Whats whrong whith telling both sides?
Im not saying i want to take over the artikel, no at all. I just want to tell my version. Anybody else are welcomed to tell theirs.
-- Striver 03:31, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Where do i see how big the article is right now? -- Striver 16:41, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This article is supposd to be about Aisha, yet is reads like a venomous debate between Shia and Sunni. Everytime some thing is mentioned about Aisha, there is another para nitpicking it. Every single historical figure has controversy surrounding it. But when writing about it one writes about facts. Here, the venom especially from the shiite side makes the article read like one of those "Opposing viewpoint" series essay. The article doesn't seem to inform about Aisha as much as it wholly bashes her character and the controversies surrounding this historic feminist and leader of Muslims. There should be only one section labelled "Controversies surrounding Aisha" thats it. It would give it more cohorence, NPOV and not read like a venom laden garbage that it currently reads like. IMO, the sunni historians read more like modern day secular western historians, where the purpose is pursuit of the truth rather than maligning a personality for one's favourite side and beleif system.
omerlives Omerlives 07:21, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Im sorry OneGuy, but i have told several times, im quoting history books and more ore less established facts. You have not argued even one time with me on the validity of ANNY topic, only forwarded your opinion that im an "apologetic biased shia POV pusher". Get real and argue the topic, prove me wrong, tell me that Ali did NOT opposed Abu Bakr instead of raision votes for delition. Bukhari says that Umar said that Ali DID oppose Abu Bakr, so ´who are you to disagree? What does it matter if 90% of the Muslims dont want to aknowlege facts stated in their own books? Here we state facts, not Sunni POV, and, for example, Bukhari Says Ali DID oppose Abu Bakr.
Start seing the diffrens betwen Sunni POV and what Sunni books says.
And by the way, i usualy dont say "sunni says" or "muslim says", only "bukhari says" or "history of tabari says"
-- Striver 21:46, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Omerlives, its not my intent to bash umm ul-momeenin Aishas character, rather its to stop the sunni sides "Aisha is best" aproch. And i use all Sunni sources to show facts about her, i dont give any single oppininon. An strangly some people, like OneGuy are critizing me for my efforts to include establishd historical facts, in for example, the article about Mohammed.
I mean, c'mon, since when is it bias to portray established facts? Im genuinly hurt by the fact that my efforts to include established, non-disputed facts from sunni sources are dissmised as "biased shia apologetic POV". *sight*
I mean, since when is "man kuntu mawla, alion mawla" a Shia POV? FFS, that makes me so mad and makes me feels poorly treated. So what that the Sunni OPINION is that mawla means friens, is that an excues to exlude that FACT that he said so? Since when do Sunni OPINIONS ´have bigger levereage that FACTS?
Like the fact that Aisha recruited Hafsa and two other wives to harras the Prophet, somthing that made the Prophet leave them for one month and at the end, for the SECOND time, made him think on terminating the marriage to Aisha. Even Umar admits it and gives some very heavy words to Hafsa for it, but still sunnis rather forget the whole thing, only because it remninds them to the fact that Aisha was not an angel. Anyway, the honny episode is now included, no thanx to the Sunni contrubutes. I mean, all of Surah of "the prohibition" is due to this incident, but still Sunnis whant it to be forgoten. I glad that OneGuy isnt here as well, otherwise he would have dissmised the whole honny episode as well as "Biased irrelevant shia apologetic POV. :(
And i havent even started talking about why she is called "Humayra". "The red lady". Use your imagination. Or Aisha hand her fatwa on nursing male adults. *sight* THAT would make Sunnis go berzerk if i started showing what Aisha realy said about that.
Fact: Aisha hated Ali, Fatimah, and Hasan (pbut). ITS FACT. Its all over sunni books. Sunnis dont want to aknowledge that, so instead of being facts, its "biased Shia POV".
Let me aske one thing: If one day, the "Flat Earth Society" would make 85% of the world to belive that the earht is flat, would the FACT that the earth is round to become "irrelevant, biased apologetic Ruond-Earther POV"?
Im talking ESTABLISHED FACTS in SUNNI BOOKS!
Geting tired of this. Only cause Sunnis dont like it, dosnt make it POV! Its SUNNI POV in that case, NOT SHIA POV!
-- Striver 11:50, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
FACT FACT FACT FACT! stop labelling everything about your selective POV as fact. Unfortunately I donot have the time being a superbusy undergrad to start and correcting your article. My god! Books by most Western Historians read so much more better as one sees that they have made an HONEST attempt to present an NPOV. Just consider what if Ali by any happenstance was a controversial figure (which he too is) and say Sunnis had angst against him (which they dont) the way Shias do about virtually every other muslim figure save Ali's family. There could be produced a gazilion hadiths and rawayat's about Ali's incompetence, failure, impotence and what not. Just like any figure against whom any community has decided a negative mindset from the beginning. If you dont beleive it, ask any Chritian fundie about Mohammad and let im give you a course bout the vile Muhammad based on FACTS FACTS FACTS from sunni shia hadith quran and what not sources. Yet that article would NOT be balanced, neutral, honest by any chance even if countered in the second para by sunni writers. Read for example the acount on MOhammad by M. Hart in his book THE 100 in which he declares mohamad the most influential person and goes neither in overt sycophancy nor his personal POV. THAT is the honest attempt and that's the way an encyclopedia should read.
This is an encyclopedia, and try to educate people with honesty in your heart and that means honesty about all, the likes of Salman Rushdie, Hassan bin Sabah, Yazeed, Ali, Muawiyah, Khomeni,Bin Hanifa et al. omerlives Omerlives 03:41, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It wasnt khwarij rebels that surounded Uthman, they khwarij group did come into existense util the forced arbitration of Ali and Muaviya.
Its in both Sunni and Shia sources that Hasan and Husain defended Uthman live, not only Shia sources.
-- Striver 17:40, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
dear u can write it is arabic name as Jung a Jamal ,if i am not wrong.
There is a non-NPOV in the article, first it says that tabari was an "early" chronicler (what an ingnorance!), second it clearly makes a logical mistake : the tilte says aicha married when she was 9, and in the text it says 6!!!! if the word marriage doesn't suits you, change it! the reader has to know that Aicha ACCEPTED to marry when she was six. I will change all the non-NPOV.-- Agurzil 08:25, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Agurzil claims that hadith says that Aisha lived with Muhammad when she was 6. That's not what the hadith says:
I think we should add a new section called "the implication of Aicha's marriage in sharia", for example, a girl can be married at the age of 9 in Iran.-- Agurzil 17:21, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
First of all, please, let's not start calling each other too many strange names. (POV pusher and such...). Another thing is that the hadiths that you just deleted, was not all from Bukari and all of them was not narrated by Aisha. As a matter of fact two of them was not...
1) Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310: 'Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.
2) Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
I just added these two again. Stereotek 19:39, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
All the hadith on Aisha's age include Urwa in the chain of narration? That surprise me! Anyway, out of interest, could you please mention your source for that information?
Another ting is that you changed Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 from Narrated Ursa to Narrated 'Urwa. I find it a bit hard to track down a source that support that specific change. Maybe you could mention yours? Stereotek 09:19, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I removed the bit re the age of marriage in Iran -- that's irrelevant to Aisha. I also rewrote much of what Striver contributed. I hope the article flows more smoothly now. Zora 19:17, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Legal age for brides lifted to 13
24jun02
IRAN'S arbitrating body has approved a reformist law increasing the minimum marriage age from 9 to 13 for girls and from 14 to 15 for boys. The new law stipulates that marriage of girls under 13 and boys under 15 will require court permission, the government-run daily Iran has reported. It gave no further details.
The law's approval is seen as a victory for Iran's reformists, who have sought to promote women's rights. The elected legislature passed a similar Bill in August 2000, but the hard-line Guardian Council rejected it as contradicting Islamic sharia law. Now, the Expediency Council, which arbitrates between parliament and the Guardian Council, has passed the measure into law. Officials were unavailable for comment. "This is yet another fulfillment of promises of reformists, especially female lawmakers, who had promised to protect women's rights," said lawmaker Fatemah Khatami. "Still, we have a long way to go to provide adequate legal protection for women." [3]
OneGuy 19:31, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Some anon editor with a strong attitude is trying to revive the "Muhammad is a pedophile" controversy. He seems to be intent on removing one portion of a sentence in which it is noted that some Muslim commentators insist that Aisha was post-pubescent at nine. I was the one who wrote that; I was the one who read exactly that defense on several Islamic web pages. I recall some wording like "girls grow up faster in the desert". Now I think this would be a symptom of a severe hormone disorder myself, and thus highly unlikely, but I was just reporting what I read.
I believe that this could possibly be a resurgence of Pename -- wasn't he banned for a year? I don't understand why this IP is able to post. Zora 08:20, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
this happened in the 7th century, man. You were not there. We only even know about it through 'muslim sources'. It's very simple. The sources should be listed, it should be put into the proper 7th century Arabian context (i.e. nobody even raised an eyebrow, at the time!), and usual interpretations (she was post-pubescent etc.) should be given. We are not discussing whether she was indeed post-pubescent, this would be futile. We are just citing authorities on the subject. OneGuy, the removal of the "post-pubescent" passage is not strictly vandalism. Especially since "usual response" seems a bit weasly. But if it is indeed the usual response, it should of course be here, and I'll help putting it back. dab (ᛏ) 09:06, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
fine. can we also do some actual, unbiased research on it? I would be interested about the history of this in islamic writing. I.e. was it even seen as an issue, were there disputes about the puberty thing, and who are the authors who advanced either view? "usual response" somehow just isn't good enough.
dab
(ᛏ) 09:38, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It would be a monumental task to track down the history of this controversy. My suspicion is that it's fairly recent. It's reminiscent of the 1980s and early 1990s hysteria over multiple personalities/satanic ritual abuse/pedophile rings/day care trials &c. I would guess that this criticism was first raised by Christian polemicists and then the Muslims started responding to it. Several of the sites I found referred to this as a recent slander by Orientalists.
I found three websites where the "early menarche" explanation is given:
I trust that's sufficient evidence? Zora 10:42, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
sure, I don't doubt it is the usual response. I just meant that it'd be nice to be able to be a bit more specific. Also,
That sufficed for a while at least. Sigh .... Zora 08:52, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
~~
Nobody reeacting to the pedofilia link in "How old was Aisha when she was married?"? -- Striver 16:18, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
An anon editor added a link to another website arguing that Aisha was older than 9 when married. The addition was in the wrong place, in the wrong form, and the website to which it linked was diffuse and confusing. There is already a link to a very succinct and well-written presentation of the evidence. Surely that is sufficient example of this POV. Zora 11:36, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
A new editor named Eagleamn added "Battle of the Camel" to one section of the article. I reversed his/her edit, because the battle is already mentioned twice, once in a section heading and once in the course of the narrative. I don't think the addition is necessary, and it throws the rhythm of the sentence off. Eagleamn, of course you're free to come here and argue about it <g>. Zora 21:31, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
An anon editor added another item to the list showing that Aisha was post-pubescent. Some of the information in that item simply duplicated info already given. There was new information, re a ten-year age difference between Aisha and Asma, and an assertion that Asma died at the age of 100 in 73 AH. However -- this new information was not sourced. I find the assertion that Asma lived to the age of 100 a little hard to believe. It seems more likely to me that neither Aisha nor Asma knew precisely how old she was, given the way people dated at that time, and the frequent controversies re dating various events in early Islamic history.
If there's a new argument to be made, it should be sourced. Zora 07:16, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This time the anon argued that Aisha was clearly Muhammad's favorite wife and that um, "his potency was increased 40 times over". Ugh. That sounds like a Viagra ad and it's highly debateable. Zora 06:42, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It seems that more context is needed here. What were common practices around the world, especially with arranged marriages? What were common practices with the nobility class? My belief is that whether the age was 9 or 14, in the age of survival of the fittest, in the age before female education and autonomy, before the development of modern medicine and psychology, the ancient notion was that there was likely nothing wrong with this practice. -- Noitall 21:35, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
About the only context we have is anthropological, for various pre-modern societies. Many of them marry off females at an extremely early age, while they are still pre-pubescent. However, my understanding is that these marriages are not consummated until the bride is post-pubescent. Early marriage is usually seen by the parents as a kind act, assuring the girl's future. It can also be a way of ensuring that arranged marriages go ahead as planned, while the girl is still young and docile, and hasn't formed her own preferences. Both nobility and peasants practice early marriage.
Since what counts, socially, is the marriage, that's what is recorded. I would guess that recording the date and time of consummation would be much less common, and much harder to document -- especially for societies we only know through fragmentary records and archaeological evidence. I dunno how much physical anthrologists can figure out from bones -- age certainly, having born children, possibly -- but virginity is NOT something they could possibly deduce.
I need to get a copy of Robertson-Smith, Kinship and Marriage in Early Arabia, and put it through Distributed Proofreaders. It's old, but it's still one of the few sources for pre-Islamic Arabia. Zora 23:06, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
-- Noitall 01:39, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
-- Noitall 14:43, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
Actually, both points refer to marrying nine-year-olds. As Zora notes, finding information on the age of consummation is much more difficult. The youngest marriage I know of (from the Guiness Book of Records) was of a 1-year-old to a nine-month-old, I believe; we can safely assume it wasn't consummated for some time...- Mustafaa 19:15, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Babajobu is very confused about many things. You are attacking me and you don't even have any idea of what ideas you are attacking. My point is that Muhammad's behavior in this particular aspect was the product of his times. People were commonly betrothed prior to the age of 9, even at birth, see the entire history of European prince and princesses. Kings ran countries and executed people by this age. It was not a time where you needed to be 18 to get a driver's license or drink a beer. Sickness felled a large percentage of families and they did things early. Even though I am a Christian, I am no bible expert, but I bet you would find a lot of passages in the Old Testiment where it was pretty normal to marry and, presumably, consumate the marriage, early. -- Noitall 19:32, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
Yabbut, the same people who insist on believing the hadith that she was nine also assert that she was post-pubescent, because "Arabian girls matured earlier". Yes, this is bogus, because all the evidence is that the age of menarche in traditional societies was higher than it is now, in these days of good nutrition. But that seems to me to be good evidence that:
The only possible solution is claiming that Aisha was post-pubescent at nine. This says more about the ulema, IMHO, than it does about Muhammad. Zora 01:59, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I just want to address personal attacks by Babajobu. I don't mind personal attacks, I am a big person. But please make them somewhat relevant to the issue. I have made no edit here on this article, and only initiated a discussion to find out other POVs and other people's research or knowledge. Thus Babajobu's cannot be based on some edit he fundamentally disagrees with or the fact that I reverted his cherished bit of words or POV. Babajobu has called me all sorts of names, and I really do not know why, and made all sorts of scattered assumptions based on the articles I have edited, not on the what I have actually edited in those articles. Basically, all Babajobu has proven here is that he/she virolently leaps to conclusions without thinking. For the rest of you, thank you for your comments. -- Noitall 13:52, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
Narrated 'Aisha: "I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) 8:73:151
Here is some research on this subject using more than one references:
http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm
I quote
"Later research
Research subsequent to the time of Maulana Muhammad Ali has shown that she was older than this. An excellent short work presenting such evidence is the Urdu pamphlet Rukhsati kai waqt Sayyida Aisha Siddiqa ki umar (‘The age of Lady Aisha at the time of the start of her married life’) by Abu Tahir Irfani.[4a] Points 1 to 3 below have been brought to light in this pamphlet.
1. The famous classical historian of Islam, Ibn Jarir Tabari, wrote in his ‘History’:
“In the time before Islam, Abu Bakr married two women. The first was Fatila daughter of Abdul Uzza, from whom Abdullah and Asma were born. Then he married Umm Ruman, from whom Abdur Rahman and Aisha were born. These four were born before Islam.” [5]
Being born before Islam means being born before the Call.
2. The compiler of the famous Hadith collection Mishkat al-Masabih, Imam Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib, who died 700 years ago, has also written brief biographical notes on the narrators of Hadith reports. He writes under Asma, the older daughter of Abu Bakr:
“She was the sister of Aisha Siddiqa, wife of the Holy Prophet, and was ten years older than her. … In 73 A.H. … Asma died at the age of one hundred years.”
This would make Asma 28 years of age in 1 A.H., the year of the Hijra, thus making Aisha 18 years old in 1 A.H. So Aisha would be 19 years old at the time of the consummation of her marriage, and 14 or 15 years old at the time of her nikah. It would place her year of birth at four or five years before the Call.
3. The same statement is made by the famous classical commentator of the Holy Quran, Ibn Kathir, in his book Al-bidayya wal-nihaya:
“Asma died in 73 A.H. at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister Aisha.”
Apart from these three evidences, which are presented in the Urdu pamphlet referred to above, we also note that the birth of Aisha being a little before the Call is consistent with the opening words of a statement by her which is recorded four times in Bukhari. Those words are as follows:
“Ever since I can remember (or understand things) my parents were following the religion of Islam.”
This is tantamount to saying that she was born sometime before her parents accepted Islam but she can only remember them practising Islam. No doubt she and her parents knew well whether she was born before or after they accepted Islam, as their acceptance of Islam was such a landmark event in their life which took place just after the Holy Prophet received his mission from God. If she had been born after they accepted Islam it would make no sense for her to say that she always remembered them as following Islam. Only if she was born before they accepted Islam, would it make sense for her to say that she can only remember them being Muslims, as she was too young to remember things before their conversion. This is consistent with her being born before the Call, and being perhaps four or five years old at the time of the Call, which was also almost the time when her parents accepted Islam.
Maybe retards here should try to know the true meanings of word "research"
From the link you posted about Aisha being Mohammed's wife: "Such a person would need to possess the following qualities: an excellent, precise memory to retain a vast amount of detail accurately"
Yet she couldn't remember how old she was when her marriage was consumated? Or are you saying she lied? Rhm01 23:47, 23 Sept 2006
I do agree that this article is just fine as it is, absolutly.
I made that change to try to standardize all article, following "Name ibn/bint Fathers name". Its more practical in the long run, specialy if you have lots of articles....
Dont you agree its better to standardize?
-- Striver 30 June 2005 01:11 (UTC)
i want to add this:
"=== Muawiya ===
Thenceforth she lived a retired life until both his brother where killed by Muawiya ibn Abu Sufuyan. She became furious and became vocal, causin her to be killed by Muawiya in approximately 678."
after the end of the battle of the cammel. Any comments?
-- Striver 30 June 2005 02:19 (UTC)
I see that part was totaly ignored... well, ok, lets just say she died in a "unknown event"... *sight*
Regarding sharia faling apart if Aisha not being trustworthy, that does not apply to shias, we dont consider her trustworthy to begin with.
-- Striver 00:35, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't SEE your comment until now. His brother? Whose brothers? That is not clear at all. Nor is it at all clear that Muawiya killed Aisha. The more hadith I read, the more conspiracy theories I find. Anyone who is said by one faction to have died of illness or old age is said by another faction to have been poisoned. At this time, unless we could find the grave, exhume the body and test it to see if any poisons have survived the millenia, we can't be sure about ANY of the poison theories. I don't see that there's any point in mentioning them.
As for the point re Shi'a not considering Aisha-sourced hadith reliable for law, that's a good one, I'll make changes. Zora 01:15, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I found one reference in Madelung to Aisha's rage at Muawiya's murder of her brother, and desecration of his body -- only the one brother cited. Wasn't the other brother killed by Marwan, not Muawiya? Would take some research to dig up. Madelung has nothing re the death of Aisha. After much googling, I came up with one Shi'a account saying that Muawiya dug a pit for Aisha, into which she fell and was killed. This was held up to Sunni derision on the talk forum where I found it. Re poison, you may be remembering stories that Muawiya had Husayn ibn Ali poisoned, by bribing his wife -- also a Shi'a story, denied by Sunni.
This is a period not covered by my Ibn Ishaq. My copy of Ibn Sa'd isn't here yet, and I only have one volume of Tabari, for a different period. I can't find any record of an English translation of al-Waqidi. Do you have any cites OTHER than late, Shi'a oral traditions? It sounds to me as if the claim that Muawiya murdered Aisha is just one more attempt to blacken the name of Muawiya. Zora 05:21, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I have no first hand sources regarding this, only shia books in shia sites. And the book calims Mauwiya also poisoned the second brother and also gives a context to it. You can find a link to it in the brothers article. Wheter its true or not is irrelevant, we are not here to judge its auteticity, only to report it. You can write "shia cite sunni sources claiming Aisha was burried alive by Muawiya".
-- Striver 17:33, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Right now i cant offer more proof that all shia i have talked to and all shia sources i have read, whenever they have mentioned her death, they have claimed Muawiya did it. That is good enough for me. Sister, i cant find a "scholarly" referens for every single thing i know, in this case it should suffice that al-islam.org, answerig-ansar.org and shianews.com claim it. They all three are among the most prominent shia sites on the net.
By the way, could you add that she liberated Barirah mawla Aisha before hijra?
-- Striver 21:26, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
It's good that Zeno brought up the alternate explanation of sura 66. I wasn't aware of the two explanations until now, but I think this makes perfect sense. I think the two explanations should be explained in more detail, rather than just a link to the concubine/wife Maria being given. I'll do it when I can. However, I don't think it's true that the Shi'a reject the story of the honey, since it was a Shi'a, Striver, who added it in the first place. Of course, Striver does not necessarily reflect the views of all Shi'a. Again, research would be needed. Zora 18:32, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
I dont get this, the siege guys have changed all over WP that "shias", impling all of them, question the story of the honey, and they have not used one single source for that, it bothers me that when i whant to add something, then 30 outside sources proove nothing about shia view, but when siege wants to add, then 0 links is adequate sourcing. Bah!
-- Striver 12:28, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
the only war i can remember was the war of the camel, between her and ali... i dont see how he's her son in law if that's who it was referring to -- GNU4Eva 03:30, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
Zeno, you reverted to your version of the Maria note, and I can't see why. Is it just that you like the look of your own prose? I don't see why we can't explain the alternate theory in the Aisha article and repeat the explanation in the Maria article. I can see asking users to click to another article when the explanation would be too long -- such as dealing with the whole succession to Muhammad problem -- but one para is not too much to add. Zora 02:05, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
Shouldent have done that revert.
-- Striver 21:48, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Stevertigo spent a lot of time giving the Muslim apologetic gloss, as well as removing the earlier note re the use of Ayesha as a woman's name. I removed the gloss, and here's why:
This article has been a hotly contested area for years. It is the scene of ugly clashes between anti-Muslim bigots (Muhammad was a pedophile, nyah nyah!) and pious Muslims (nothing that makes Muhammad look even remotely human or fallible can be included). Not to mention the Shi'a versus Sunni wars.
After a great deal of editing work, we had arrived at what seemed to be a stable NPOV version, one that all sides could accept. Stevertigo's edits threatened to return us to that state of all-out war. I don't feel that they added any information -- they just insisted on the Muslim version of Aisha's history.
Stevertigo, I know that you think you're defending Islam with your edits, but your efforts would just plunge us back into the wars and lead to the posting of more scurrilous interpretations of Muhammad's behavior. Please, unless you have extra information to add (which I don't think is possible, since we've covered the earliest sources), let this version be. Zora 07:04, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Hello, I must be the user you're talking about. Ali Sina happens to be a scholar, like it or not. He quotes the Hadith and the Quran and explains why he believes Mohammad was a pedophile. I don't see why the reference should be taken out --Tabari states that Mohammad married Aisha when Aisha was six years old. Yes, six years old. This makes Aisha a little girl, hence the claim that Mohammad was a pedophile. Taking out the reference to Faith Freedom would violate Wikipedia's policy of neutrality, since pro-Islamic views are also featured heavily on this page. Tauphon 17:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
A new editor just added a link to a page on the Faithfreedom.org website that accuses Muhammad of being a pedophile. I was going to delete this as malicious slander and then I thought -- it's perhaps a good idea for readers to know just what sort of venom is being spread on this matter. In fact, the page is so transparently prejudiced that I don't think it has the effect it wants to have.
I'd like to hear what other editors have to say on this matter. I hope that people can consider it from the freedom of speech/access to information angle and not the "we must not disrespect the prophet" angle. Zora 23:59, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
He is neither banned, neither crazy, neither good, nor bad. We care about notability. Cheers -- Szvest 04:49, 28 December 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
Karl, I assume that you understand very well that when discussing Ali's notability, we subsequently discuss his website. Cheers -- Szvest 18:59, 28 December 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
The article that we have an external link to is written by Ali Sina but it's subject is not ALi Sina, so how notable he is or not, is not very interesting in this case. The article is about the Aisha/Muhammed pedophilia controversy which is obviously very well known, and of course worth mentioning in this article. I don't see any reason why there should be any resistance to having a link to an article that clarify and provide information to our readers, about one of the POVs that exist regarding this issue? Other articles re this issue can of course be added to add some balance and provide information about other POVs re this, however I don't see any reason to remove the external link. -- Karl Meier 21:07, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
I would never use his site. Completely ignoring the fact that I'm a Muslim, he insults and lies a LOT. Every Muslim on the site he calls a "cult member" along with other numerous insults to Islam, the Prophet Muhammad (as), and the Muslim.
He lies, also. For example, he says that in an authentic Hadith there is a creation story that Muhammad (as) told. That Hadith doesn't exist! It was completely made up by Sina but he tried to pass it off as authentic and as if it existed. He also has numerous other lies.
It's one thing to be a "scholar" who is critical of Islam. It's another thing to lie about what you're supposedly a "scholar" of. Armyrifle 14:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi Armyrifle, can you please substantiate your attacks against Ali Sina? Nevertheless, Ali Sina is simply the owner of FFI. There are plenty of other dissident voices in FFI that criticise Islam from every point of view you may imagine. However, Mohammad's pedophilia is something of a consensus there, as well as other websites and organisations that also criticise Islam, aka the Religion of Peace.
Since I am ex-Muslim myself and that Mohammad's pedophilia was the main reason I left Islam, and since apostates have a right to be represented in Wikipedia alongside with the Muslims, I do not see why the Faith Freedom link is deleted all the time.
Besides, I wonder why all the instances where Mohammad's pedophilia was mentioned in the article have been taken out. Because there are people who think Mohammad was a pedophile, i.e. he married a six-years old child, and because Wikipedia is completely NEUTRAL, at least the phenomenon that some people think Mohammad was a pedophile HAS TO BE MENTIONED in this article.
Is that clear? Tauphon 08:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Guys! For everybody who is into reverting. Nobody from both sides is giving us in detail the reason(s) why she/he is reverting. Please discuss here to sort that out. I have no knowledge about that particular issue but I see the article is being unstable because of simple things. Please, discuss the issue here. Cheers -- Szvest 17:59, 28 December 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
I have reverted to the version before MSK's last edit, because he violated 3RR and has been blocked. That doesn't mean I can vouch for its accuracy or that I agree with its contents. My only concern was to ensure MSK gains no advantage from the violation, so the regular editors should feel free to retain or delete the edit as you see fit. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:33, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
An anon date crusader changed CE to AD. I changed it back. At which MSK arrives and reverts to an extremely old "Muhammad was a pedophile" version while accusing ME of reverting and using misleading edit summaries. Someone is confused and it isn't me. Zora 03:55, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I am afraid that changing CE to AD is no cultural crusade but simply an attempt at accuracy. The modern calander used in most of the world today is divided in BC and AD. Simple fact and nothing to do with crusading. Oh by the way I am Muslim and resent the inference that I am some sort of crusader.
Fine but this is still inaccurate. Furthermore for a consistance approach do you would have to make attempts to remove all references to the Islamic calander. ie has AH been changed to some equally meaningless thing? To change the islamic calander is wrong. But so is to change the Christian one.
Sir/Madam this has nothing to do with neutrality but to do with accuracy. What you are stating is simply incorrect and artificial. The dating from the Islamic calander is extensively used in other articles on Islamic history...and may I say entirely appropiately. Had the dating in this article been based on the islamic calander I would have no argument. However if you use the Christian calander, you have to use the appropiate abbreviations if you claim accuracy
I agree that this an entirely reasonable solution to this problem. I will change the rest of the dates in accordance with this
We've had CE there for ages -- I put it there when I extensively rewrote the article a year and a half ago, something like that. We have CE in numerous articles throughout Wikipedia. We've had an Arbcom case rebuking a date crusader, and an era ruling to the effect that editing an article JUST to change the date notation is wrong. I don't see why we have to remove the notation for someone who's breaking rules just with his date crusading. Zora 09:12, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I've noted the above discussion with interest. I am not sure what date crusading is. But I do agree with the chap who has pointed out the inconsistancy of having references to the Islamic calender (I have to admit that I too am a Muslim) and artifically removing all references to the Christian Calander. Simpily because this error has been perpetuated in the past does to signify validity. Compromise is important. And it would seem that if CE creates as much annoyance as AD then we should remove both. Inshallah.
If I am correct , Aisha was ingaged to somebody else befor her ingagment to Muhammad . Am I right or wrong . F.a.y. تبادله خيال /c 20:47, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Marriages occured much earlier at that time because the life expectancy almost 1500 years ago was less than half of that today [ [8]]. What's wrong with that statement? The sentence before says that early marriages were common at that time & the life expectancy is probably the reason for that. I don't understand what you mean by the shorter on European Demographics. Rajab 10:36, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Why should I compromise? The WP way is to give all sides of an issue -- when the sides are notable. Your "explanation" is your original theory; it is not supported by any demographer. Lower life expectancies, yes -- but this does NOT translate directly into lower age at marriage. Your theory is not notable, so far as I can tell. Come back with cites from reputable sources and then we'll add your theory.
What's relevant is "age at marriage". This has tended to be fairly low in many pre-modern societies, with women married off as soon as they were pubescent. But not all societies! It varies. However, in no societies that I know is sex with pre-pubescent females approved. Nine is pre-pubescent, very much so. Puberty actually comes later to undernourished women, not earlier. (See Aisha's account of the necklace for a comment on how little she weighed, and how thin women were in those days.) That's why I think, personally, that Aisha was bragging and exaggerating her youth at marriage. But that's just MY theory. Zora 11:35, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Anon, I removed the last part of your edits re Aisha's age at marriage. You can't argue that "Muhammad would not have done anything nasty", as that assumes that Muhammad is perfect. There are many non-Muslims who would not accept that argument; it does not belong in a secular encyclopedia. The argument that marriage to a pre-pubescent child would have been shocking is unreferenced, and would be hard to demonstrate. We know very little, really, about marriage customs in pre-Islamic Arabia, though there is much speculation.
If you want to research an article on Pre-Islamic Arabian society, that would be wonderful. But until we have something like that, we can't really make statements about what was or wasn't accepted. Zora 23:50, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
In this case, Ibn Ishaq can be used to prove that Aisha was older than nine, and avert a scandalous interpretation of Muhammad's behavior. What does it profit a Muslim to criticize him here? Are you trying to argue that Aisha was indeed nine years old?
If there are any questions about Ibn Ishaq, his article is the place to discuss it. Zora 06:18, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
This may be an unpopular proposal, but I think we should remove everything which is not sourced from this article. I had a difficult time tracking down many of the facts, but its probably undesirable to mark every other sentence with {{fact}}. These generic references like "according to some hadiths" are especially troubling. Unless they cite a specific one it seems like any level of original research or non-sense can be justified. savidan (talk) (e@) 07:16, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
For example, I removed:
This seems like the definition of original research. So what if Muhammad didn't let 14 year olds join the army? That says nothing about Aisha's age. Clearly, she would be a special case. The rest of it is even worse. savidan (talk) (e@) 07:23, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I pulled these out, put feel free to put them back in if you can back them up with cites.
I will put the above back into the text. This is the most crucial information. Just counting hadith does not give any information. A citation is not needed. All the hadith arguing for a young age are listed. If you have doubts, go and look yourself if you find one without Urwa in the chain of narration. It's not that many. You can do that!
savidan (talk) (e@) 07:27, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
I also removed this:
I see how the first part is referenced. But the third sentence does not in any way follow from the first two. savidan (talk) (e@) 01:42, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the following paragraphs from the "young age controversy" section. They are replete with POVs and unsourced material. The most prominent of which is the paragraph about Sunni principles of Shari'a being threatened if we assume Aisha was incorrect regarding her age. I would say most Sunni muslims, and scholars, would find this hard to believe. Feel free to reinsert the paragraphs with sources and reword it so that it doesn't represent a deduction or a POV.
Ahmedayad 06:55, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
This IP keeps readding things without adding sources. As well, he/she also keeps changing the section title without explanation. This one thing is particularly heinous: the part about "it is unanimously agreed...". That is so clearly not the case and does not belong in the article. I don't want to revert more than twice, but other users should really step in and revert this anon. savidan (talk) (e@) 22:33, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Actually your last edit is a major improvement, so I won't readd the tag. savidan (talk) (e@) 08:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
The Chicago Manual of Style, which is the standard reference for those copyediting academic works, wants all numbers below 100 to be spelled out rather than given as Arabic numerals. The text simply looks better.
As for claims that Aisha was the third wife of twelve -- both those numbers are disputed. Don't state those numbers as facts. Zora 17:46, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
To Zora, you removed the section I added about the previous engagement right after my addition. I don't check my edits religiously for reverts so I have just came to notice. You mention that it is in a bad place and is repeated, both are not correct. Including the first engagement in the section about the "young age controversy" lends support to the ideaa that her engagement to the prophet (PBUH) was not unique at that time regardless of her age (even if we accept she was young by our standards, the fact that she was already engaged tells us it was not strange for her to be so). I agree the section I had was long, instead I have added the following to the "young age" section: "regardless of her age at the time, Aisha was already engaged to another man before Muhammad" Ahmedayad 06:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Zmmz, your edits turned straightforward prose into ungrammatical muddles. Furthermore, I don't think anyone disputes the story of the lost necklace except those scholars, like Patricia Crone, who think that all the hadith and tafsir are suspect. Perhaps a reference to Historiography of early Islam] would be in order. However, it's not necessary to NPOV statements that no one is disputing. None of the doubting scholars have even touched on the story of the necklace.
The article does need a springclean and rewrite, but I have to finish some RL work (line editing a Hawaiian history) before I can get to it. Zora 21:59, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi, please do not erase NPOV language used in the article, such that the age of the prophet`s wife is nowhere mentioned or hinted here. The reader needs to have some indication of the wife’s age. We must write articles in neutral language, and not solely rely on lopsided commentary. Please review Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and the Wiki manual of writing policies. Zmmz 22:01, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I`m sorry, If you want to do something useful is incivil, and please assume good faith. The hadith is respected, yet, it is not the sole scholarly work, specially, since there is a legitimate controversy. As such, the article needs to be written in a neutral language. Zmmz 22:17, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
I asked other editors if they wanted to split the marriage age controversy off into another article, and no one wanted to do so. Recently there's been some back-and-forth about introducing the controversy in the birthdate section.
Usually the intro para is where we state why someone is notable. So I took the controversy out of the birthdate, and moved it right up to the top, along with the Shi'a critique. Now no one can say that we're hiding anything. Look OK to other editors? Zora 01:11, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like a good plan. Something that was overlooked before and would definitely add to the article. Zora 01:47, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Mani, we can't state in the intro that she was a child bride when there is controversy about her age. If you look at the section below, you see that there is a wide range of estimates of her age. WP doesn't state as fact matters that are in dispute; we just give all sides.
I have a feeling that my reversion is going to immediately be trumpeted in the Aucaman arbitration case as proof that I'm a unregenerate edit warrior, who should be banned from WP. I had to think for a moment as to whether or not I'd revert what I guessed was a deliberately provocative edit. Then I figured that if I could be intimidated into NOT doing something that I thought was fair, I would be a coward. So, I did it.
I would, however, appreciate some statements of support from other editors here if the poop hits the rotating blade. Zora 02:00, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted ManiF's changes because, as far as I can see, there has been no consensus reached to add "young bride" to the intro. The fact that she was young, as Zora point out, is not controversial at all. In fact, young is very POV. There are many people married young. The assertion that she was married at 9 is already mentioned in the introduction. Pepsidrinka 03:07, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
I’m sorry to see there is an edit-war here, and I apologize if Muslims are offended, in any way; I’m being sincere. Nevertheless, with all due respect, how can you say Aisha`s age was of no controversy? It is perhaps one the most well argued, and notorious hypothesis, backed with a lot of academic views, from Arabic books itself, in the religion Islam. I read this article when I joined Wiki anew in Feb/06, and I had no idea about this issue; yet, the article had not mentioned anything. I read a book by accident mentioning the enormity of this issue two weeks ago, then came back and added [one] sentence, stating she may have been a child at marriage, so at least the reader would have an idea about what is going-on. The reader deserves to know that. Am I incorrect? I know it is a sensitive issue to Muslims, but should that be a reason from excluding, or burying this somewhere in a completely different article? Zmmz 03:27, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
After, I breathed life into the issue, yes, now, it does. Good luck guys, and try to get along. Thanks Zmmz 03:56, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
User:210.211.233.171/ User:210.211.234.85, you have violated the three-revert rule. Timothy Usher 11:32, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Anon, there are two things wrong with the version you like. One, if you want the controversy highlighted, then having it at the top is even more salient than having it in the second para. Two, that link accuses Muhammad of pedophilia. Putting it at the top, by itself, without any link to a competing viewpoint, gives it an unfair advantage. You're trying to use this article as a soapbox.
I could let you revert one more time and get banned, but I'll try to play nice: you've reverted three times and if you do it again, you'll get blocked. So don't.
Ashmoo suggested reorganizing the article and I think he's right. So sometime this weekend (after I finish the freelance editing work I'm doing), I'll try to reorganize the article so that the controversy represents all THREE sides of the argument, that is,
The link you want to insert would go in the second group.
Other editors, does this make sense? If you guys like it, you can start the re-org yourselves. Fine by me if I have less work to do. Zora 11:33, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I was not aware of such rule so I will not edit here. Sorry to be of bother.
I said I would do it and I did it. Took hours. Some of the sections still need citations, verifiable quotes, etc. I hope that this will satisfy all sides of the controversy. Zora 03:45, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Shi'a also regard her as a "mother of the belivers", we just dont put the same conotation to the title, the title it self is Qur'anic. -- Striver 08:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems that the date of the marriage is pretty vague. On the page, it mentions 622, but no exact date. Are historians sure that the marriage took place in 622 rather than 624?
Also, according to Tabari, Alisha was born in the Jahilyyah (before Islam), so she may have been born in 610 or earlier. So, one could argue that she was 14, or older, when she was married.
The article read that Shi'a dislike Aisha; an anon erased that, and wrote that since Ali forgave her, they forgave her. I wrote the "dislike" bit, based on several Shi'a websites. However, the anon may also be correct. There might well be a difference of opinion among Shi'a. I rewrote to say that and added a citation tag. We need some quotes, if any is up for getting them. If we can't get quotes, we should erase any unreferenced views. Zora 20:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
For some reason, FairNBalanced seems to feel it's fair and balanced to respond to my edit summaries a. "rm or pedophile; one does not become a pedophile through actions", and b. "rm irrelevant reference to Ibn Ishaq being 100 years after Muhammad; Bukhari and Muslim were even later" with "rv". Rather than edit warring, I'd ask that he explain clearly the reasoning behind including the entirely unreferenced claim that "Critics insist [...] that Muhammad [...] became a [...] pedophile" in this article. (I think the "child molester" thing is ridiculous too — I expect most reasonable people would recognise this as an outrageous and provocative statement unsupported by mainstream opinion; wikipedia is not a venue for original research depicting the central figures of major world religions as criminal deviants — but the "became a pedophile" is just surreal.) We can deal with the well-poisoning of Ibn Ishaq later. JEREMY 16:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The fact is is that Muhammad (as) never had sex with Aisha. Period. There is a doubtworthy Hadith (according to Shias) that he did, but this was when she was a fully grown adult. Armyrifle
I propose we remove all the unsourced material and original argument here, on "both" sides. It's not quite nonsense, but it is unencyclopedic. Do we really need an "age controversy" section? Wikipedia isn't a debate club, and this article isn't (or shouldn't be) "Criticisms of Muhammad". I honestly, in good faith, believe that the correct way to deal with this is to simply and without prejudice state and attribute the ages to Hadith (as this is the only direct statement which doesn't require our original research or a link to an unreliable source to parse), include some of the apparent contradictions (e.g. Tabari) in a footnote, delete all the weak sources and just leave it at that. Timothy Usher 06:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I've eliminated the pointless "evidence for" and bundles the refs into footnotes to the marriage section, where they belong. The "evidence against" section contains many elements of original argument, and I think we should look at how best to characterize what is actually there. Timothy Usher 07:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Here is what you guys are looking for: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Islam#Aisha
We have an exceptional editor who is working on the criticism of islam article; let me introduce him: MERZBOW! -- Aminz 07:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Aisha ... was a wife of Muhammad, whom Muslims regard as the final prophet of Islam.
The sentence is a bit clumsy. It almost sounds like it's describing Aisha as being the final prophet. Should we just get rid of the part after Muhammad? Andjam 00:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, the internal link for Muhammad should be sufficient as to who he was. Also, the Aisha is controversial part seems to veer off in some areas. Perhaps we can add something concerning the figure herself in addition to the "controversy" portion of the intro. Maybe something about the significant number of hadeeths she recorded? Stoa 04:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
A reference to role of Muhammad in muslim community was needed, as it is important to contextualize the role of Aisha and her position as Umm ul Momineen in the muslim commmunity.
They are part of her historical identity, and easily slipping two words Islam and prophet infront of Muhammad acheives all of this without having a read veer off to another link to work it out. Remember readers can come via random processes and exploration of links they do not have to be either looking for the information specifically or even be aware of her in relation to the appropiate Muhammad. The objection being raised is NPOV, because NPOV applies to honorifics but not to descriptors. Linking the use of the word with Islam when used appropriately here can be modified to an NPOV tone enabling it to be used to describe and provide descriptive information that will allow the reader to easily align himself towards the correct frame of reference, without clunking the sentence as in this case. Removing all reference to the term prophet would be doing the wikipedia's purpose of dissemination of information a disservice and actually impedes the readibiliy and comprehension of articles, the Wiki policy acknowledges that and distinguishes between its use as a honorific and otherwise and using the term Islam or Muslim IS following the recommendation of the policy.-- Tigeroo 12:29, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Where does the belief that Aisha was a virgin come from? Did it arise in response to claims of pedophiles? 152.163.100.8 14:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
What's up with this recent attempt to re-POV the opening? The age is controversial so we can't list it as fact; what is true is that critics of Muhammad think there's an issue, and I've tried a couple of different versions saying that only to have them reverted (along with other editors material, I might add) with nonsensical or misleading edit summaries. I'm not going to revert again, but I'd like to see the issue discussed here before my short, accurate version is deleted again. JEREMY 06:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
-- Tigeroo 19:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Here is the complete story:
1. The historical accounts to Aisha's age state she was married to Muhammad at age of six or seven. She then stayed in her parents' home till she had reached puberty. The traditions say this happened at nine (or maybe ten according to Ibn Hisham) and then her marriage with Muhammad was consummated. ONE PART OF THE STORY IS FINISHED NOW.
2. There are several other historical references (quotes from Aisha'a father, etc) however that contradict Aisha being married to Muhammad at the age of nine. Spelberg points out the contradictions but discredits those traditions rather than other traditions on Aisha's age. Some other scholars do otherwise. That's it. Zora has interesting theories of the motivation for possible production of Aisha's age traditions. -- Aminz 04:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
3. There are two possibilities: 1. Muhammad married Aisha at age 9. 2. Some Muslims made this up. ; In both cases, it was not seen as a bad thing in the eyes of people living at that time. -- Aminz 05:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Mike18xx, I don't really have the energy to get into discussion. I quote something from Watt and quit this discussion right now: "From the standpoint of Muhammad's time, then, the allegations of treachery and sensuality cannot be maintained. His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way. On the contrary, some of the acts criticized by the modern Westerner show that Muhammad's standards werehigher than those of his time. In his day and generation he was a social reformer, even a reformer in the sphere of morals. He created a new system of social security and a new family structure, both of which were a vast improvement on what went before. By taking what was best in the morality of the nomad and adapting it for settled communities, he established a religious and social framework for the life of many races of men. That is not the work of a traitor or 'an old lecher'." (p. 229, Watt (1961)).-- Aminz 05:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Jeremy, I don't get how my comment above shows my own POV (that which set of hadiths are more respected). I just reported the views of both parties. My third comment was also quite correct. I'll take it back if you can find for me an 7-8-9th century critic who has criticized Muhammad for his marriage to Aisha. I have a vague memory that John of Damascus,in his book, The Fount of Wisdom, does criticize marriage of Muhammad with Zayd but I don't remember anything about Aisha. It is possible that I am wrong. And I'll take your advice and don't edit contentious articles such as Aisha. -- Aminz 08:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Those of you who keep insisting that the hadith are "Aisha's own testimony" don't know anything about hadith. There are many thousands of hadith and they contradict each other!
They were written down hundreds of years after the events they supposedly relate.
Western academics believe that most of them are fabricated. Islamic scholars put more trust in them, but even they battle over which hadith should be trusted and which rejected. Sheesh. Sometimes you insist that Western academics are right, Islamic scholars are unreliable -- when it serves your purposes. But now, it serves your purposes to ignore all of Western academia and say, "Yup, these hadith are true." That's not disinterested pursuit of the truth. Zora 11:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
"They adduce the following episodes as proof that Muhammad and Aisha's marriage did not always go smoothly." needs to be clearified.
It is directly followed with adultery issue, implying that Shi'a argue She was guilty. Shi'a do no such thing, and it needs to be clearfied. It is acctualy one of the missconseptions against the Shi'a that Shi'a belive she was guilty, Sunnis are known to quote the Qur'an to "Correct" the Shi'a stance.
So the article needs to state that Shi'a do not regard her as guilty, and that Sunnis have not understood this, quoting the Qur'an to try to "overprove" Shi'a on a stance they do not even hold.
The acctual Shi'a stance is that due to their non-perfect relation, Muhammad (pbuh) did not immediatly dissmissed the allgations.
There is a big difference. We do NOT belive she was guilty, but we POINT OUT that the allegations were not outright dissmissed, and that she was not even supported. In fact, Muhammad wondering what to do about it summms it upp quit well. Also, the article needs to state that Ali did not try to defend her, rather adviced Muhammad that there are other women.
I can add references when the article gets unprotected. Any comments?-- Striver 11:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Today an anonymous editor changed the name of Muhammad's wife in the "story of the honey" section from Zaynab bint Jahsh to Umm Salama Hind bint Abi Umayya. Both were wives of Muhammad, but is this editor correct in which one was associated with that story?
On another note, Tigeroo has been inserting the word " presentist" into the discussion of critics of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (he has also done it at Aisha's age at marriage". I feel this is not NPOV; I have never heard the word "presentism" used except to be disparaging. I think it's especially true in this case, because those who defend Muhammad by saying Aisha was older are not called "presentists", though they still clearly accept modern morality as the norm (or else they would see the need to defend him for this.) I've reworded it somewhat to be less judgemental, I hope it is satisfactory to all parties now.-- Cúchullain t/ c 22:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Accusation of adultery and story of the honey were removed (and I reverted this). If this is to be done it needs to be agreed upon. gren グレン 20:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Several places in this article insert "peace be upon him" after naming Muhammad. I am aware that this is the custom among Muslims, but shouldn't this article take a more religiously neutral point of view? I mean, Wikipedia doesn't refer to Jesus of Nazareth as "Christ" or "Jesus Christ" when talking about him in a purely historical sense.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Elchip ( talk • contribs).
Interesting link [14] hope this helps. Hypnosadist 12:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Compare the following sentence:
The age of Aisha is believed by the majority of Muslims and by the Western scholars of Islam to have been six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad.
with what it replaced:
Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad.
Why are we using the passive? Why are we reifying an abstract as the subject, when perfectly concrete subjects (two of them, in fact) are available? Proabivouac 03:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
It is amazing and unbelievable.Scientifically speaking, it must be very dengerous for her. 222.225.108.100 15:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
There appears to be a bug in the software, as this revision contains changes not shown in the diff window. One of them is, "stayed in her parents' home till [sic.] she had reached puberty at nine…" From which of the cited sources did you get that, Aminz? Proabivouac 03:56, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Now tell me: why is it enyclopedically important at what age Aisha reached puberty? A couple of lines below the puberty speculation, Peters writes that Aisha was about eighteen when Muhammad died, so she was about nine when the marriage was consummated. If the insertion was meant to make her appear older than she was, then it was a nice try. Beit Or 20:32, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
How about if we put a general statement since we don't have sources about Aisha herself. This is an exact quote from the book Mohammad: Prophet and Statesman by Watt: "We must remember, of course, that girls matured much earlier in seventh-century Arabia." If Watt thought it was important to mention this, perhaps we can mention it in this article. Does anybody object to this? OpTioNiGhT ( talk) 23:39, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
There's a fairly common modern attack on Islam of "Muhammad is a paedophile", based on his six-year-old bride. Shouldn't this be addressed, probably with some historical background (was this controversial in the past).
It seems unbalanced to just say "He married her when she was six" with no further comment on the age, which seems outrageous to modern eyes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.31.166.240 ( talk) 22:21, August 27, 2007 (UTC)
It has to go in greater depth the criticism of Muhammad this marriage created. J knight 98. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.210.199 ( talk) 17:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I have restored the section on Aisha's age at marriage. There has been a controversial debate on this issue for at least a decade or two, and I see no reason for it to be excluded from the article. It seems the section may have been removed due to a lack of prominent adherents of the opposing view, but now I've added Maulana Muhammad Ali as a prominented adherent, and may add more adherents later. Jagged 85 07:29, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
<reset>Reliable sources have already answered the question for us. The only people disputing it are people who are not scholars of Islam, and have an axe to grind. We can't give their wishful thinking undue weight. Arrow740 08:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
The "claim of concensus" clause refers to claims stated in the article. Nice try. According to WP:V, you have to show that your source is reliable. You can't. Arrow740 08:41, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Guys, please read continue discussion here [18] -- Aminz 08:52, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Over at Wikisource we are discussing the deletion of s:Age of Aisha, which appears to be copyright. If anyone has evidence that it is public domain, that would be great. I suggest everyone who is interested in the age controversy go read it one last time before it is deleted from Wikisource.
That document used to be a source on the article " Aisha's age at marriage" which has been gutted and eventually redirected to this article, because apparently there were no named scholars except for Barlas (see Talk:Aisha's age at marriage#Redirect). From a quick review of both talk pages, I cant believe that the entire debate has been reduced to : "Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad. She stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, when the marriage was consummated.[][][][]".
That sentence is no where near enough to explain the amount of scholarly research that has been done on this topic, which was more adequately covered 12 months ago on the previous article. Without having dug very deep into what has happened here, my guess is that three aspects need to be revisited here:
Aminz recently added a number of citations to the Encyclopedia of Women and Islamic Cultures. This may or may not be a reliable source (I know nothing about it), but assuming that it is, Aminz, you're going to have to do much better with your citations (as in page numbers, the title of the entry, the author of the entry, etc) rather than just attributing all statements to the "Encyclopedia". Forgive me for being skeptical, but you have a history of trying to include the view that Aisha was older than the primary sources indicate, and most of the sources you have introduced have been rejected as unreliable. Please include the authors' reasoning for their claim that Aisha was 12 when she was married; I assume they have a reason to be disagreeing with the hadith and Tabari. If they don't, or offer only circumstantial evidence, that would be a strike against their credibility in this particular instance. This has been discussed so much here that I think explanation is warranted.-- Cúchullain t/ c 22:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) We are not discussing Barlas here. That was already discussed at length above and at different forums. We are currently discussing the Encyclopedia you recently introduced as a source. To that, I'm very disappointed that they apparently don't back up their assertions. But you can clear one thing up: when you dropped the quote into the article, you said that "According to Barbara Ibrahim and Alyce Abdalla, Aisha was betrothed when she was nine and married when she was twelve." But here on the talk page, you said "The authors say that there is even a wide belief that Aisha married at 12..." These are two different things. Which do they actually say?-- Cúchullain t/ c 07:20, 11 December 2007 (UTC) Additionally, I almost have to believe that the authors somehow explain their claims. I don't believe they would simply make bald statements about things like this with no backup whatsoever.-- Cúchullain t/ c 07:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The Prophet Muhammad is widely believed to have married his third wife ʿĀʾisha when she was 12. They were betrothed by her father in order to forge a political alliance when she was 9. The Prophet deliberately delayed consummation of the marriage until she reached physical maturity. His example set a religious standard for the appropriate age for marriage of females just after the onset of menses. Engagement or betrothal, however, often took place much earlier. This pattern of female marriage soon after reaching reproductive capability is typical of premodern societies in many parts of the world. In those settings, fertility is central to adult female identity; childhood ends and adult responsibility begins with physical maturity. When Arab nations emerged into statehood in the middle of the twentieth century, they often enshrined in law the low marriage ages allowable under Muslim Sharīʿa law. Thus, marriage is legal for females at age 11 in Sudan, 14 in Yemen, and 16 in Egypt. (But there are exceptions: Syria and Jordan set the legal age at 18, while it is 21 in Libya.) Meanwhile, understandings of what constitutes childhood and how children are to be protected have evolved rapidly in recent years. Countries such as Egypt have adopted comprehensive legislation to protect children and enforce their rights to such social benefits as education and health care. Governmental agencies now exist in nearly every Arab country to protect the interests of children, and girl children are often subject to special remedial programs and protections. Childhood in these recent legal codes is commonly defined as extending to the age of 18, following international United Nations standards.
I would like to remove the sentence "After the wedding, Aisha continued to play with her toys, and Muhammad entered into the spirit of these games.[7]" Just because Watt was an expert on Islam doesn't mean everything he wrote can be stated as fact. Arrow740, you can save me the trip to the library by telling me what source Watt used for this statement. Is it a Hadith or a quote from a historian of that time? OpTioNiGhT ( talk) 05:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
OK, I went to the library and checked out Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman by Watt. On page 102 it states: “The sources do not comment directly on her [Aisha] tender years, though they describe how she went on playing with her toys, and how Muhammad entered into the spirit of her games.” I find that this is taken a bit out of context and presented as fact, when Watt himself was simply referring to what the sources say about it. In the section “Note on the Sources”, it is explained that the Quran was the primary source for this work and that other sources include Sirah or Life by Ibn-Is’haq, and Maghazi or Expeditions of al-Waqidi. Seeing that there is no reference to “the spirit” of Muhammad in any of the major Islamic sources, I don’t think we need to keep this statement. As for the playing with toys, the hadith mentions Aisha playing with dolls (not toys) with her friends. There is controversy concerning this hadith because it is not clear if this happened before or after the marriage. I would like Arrow740 to come up with at least one more source (other than Watt) that talks about this issue. OpTioNiGhT ( talk) 04:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Cuchullain, your re-wording is completely misleading. We don't know if the sources mention anything about the spirit. We have a hadith that mentions the toys but does not refer to whether this is before or after the wedding. I will remove the sentence until you provide me with any source (other than Watt) that mentions the spirit of Mohammad in any way. Please post your comments here before re-introducing this phrase. Perhaps we can come to an agreement about the toys, but I really doubt you will find anything to back up the mention of the spirit. OpTioNiGhT ( talk) 01:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Aisha/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
It says on 'Age at marriage, 'having sexual relationships with a girl so young'. There are no sources that state he had sexual relationships with Aisha but rather they contradict this. Aisha was Muhammeds only virgin wife. So please could I remove this.
Thank you. MFHEagle123 ( talk) 18:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)MFHEagle123 |
Last edited at 18:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 20:13, 2 May 2016 (UTC)